English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

tchrist

22:00

@MattЭллен I don’t recall Dante describing a special punishment for the same.

Perhaps it was in Aristophanes.

Or whoever wrote about the Titanomachia.

Er, not TinTin.

Andrew Leach

Johan Larsson

Herge wrote Tintin

tchrist

Hesiod.

@AndrewLeach But that is just wrong. It says it supports 1DD8!

Me confusoed.

Andrew Leach

This is Firefox on Win7, with the OTF font.

It copes with Matt's Cyrillic.

tchrist

Could it be that Firefox doesn’t do combining marks? I find that really tough to countenance.

Andrew Leach

22:05

It's possible What about the small Xs in that screenshot?

tchrist

@AndrewLeach Those are supposed to be there.

In the Unicode database, they represent "SEE ALSO" type thingies.

A simplistic approach to confusibles or related characters.

Andrew Leach

Right. So it's only the combining letter which is the issue.

tchrist

It really is an "x (latin small ...)"/

Yes, I think so.

Andrew Leach

It does seem to be combining with something.

Matt Эллен

Andrew Leach

22:07

Or at least, being interpreted as combining and then got wrong.

Matt Эллен

looks like a circle throwing a boomerang

tchrist

\N{DOTTED CIRCLE}\N{COMBINING LATIN SMALL LETTER INSULAR D} 1DD8 COMBINING LATIN SMALL LETTER INSULAR D

Matt Эллен

ᷘ

tchrist

It is just the display: it uses a dotted circle as the base character for combining marks, to show you where they go.

\x{25CC}\x{1DD8} 1DD8 COMBINING LATIN SMALL LETTER INSULAR D

Matt Эллен

Dᷘ

Andrew Leach

22:09

So I get the dotted circle, and then it combines with the 1.

Feels like a Firefox bug.

tchrist

@AndrewLeach Yes: I have seen that bug before. It combines with the following instead of the preceding one.

Which is a no-no.

Matt Эллен

◌ᷘ

tchrist

That looks nice.

Oh, interesting. Its CCC is not where I had thunk.

Matt Эллен

I did the circle then the insulard

tchrist

It has the Canonical_Combining_Class=Above property.

Matt Эллен

22:11

fat of the (is)land

tchrist

That means it should be centered above the glyph, not used like a superscript to the top right. Hadn’t known that. You see that in palaeography.

Cerberus

@AndrewLeach It works perfectly for me in FF.

Andrew Leach

Guess what? This is Chrome. slinks off into corner ashamed

Cerberus

Haha, shame on you for using Chrome.

Matt Эллен

@AndrewLeach that explains everything! (not really :D)

tchrist

22:13

U+0363 ‭ ○ͣ COMBINING LATIN SMALL LETTER A
U+0364 ‭ ○ͤ COMBINING LATIN SMALL LETTER E
U+0365 ‭ ○ͥ COMBINING LATIN SMALL LETTER I
U+0366 ‭ ○ͦ COMBINING LATIN SMALL LETTER O
U+0367 ‭ ○ͧ COMBINING LATIN SMALL LETTER U
U+0368 ‭ ○ͨ COMBINING LATIN SMALL LETTER C
U+0369 ‭ ○ͩ COMBINING LATIN SMALL LETTER D
U+036A ‭ ○ͪ COMBINING LATIN SMALL LETTER H
U+036B ‭ ○ͫ COMBINING LATIN SMALL LETTER M
U+036C ‭ ○ͬ COMBINING LATIN SMALL LETTER R
U+036D ‭ ○ͭ COMBINING LATIN SMALL LETTER T
U+036E ‭ ○ͮ COMBINING LATIN SMALL LETTER V

There are others, but those are the Latins.

They all have the CCC=Above prop.

So should be right atop, centered.

Cerberus

Those are not centered, they are somewhat to the right.

Matt Эллен

◌ᷞ

Cerberus

tchrist

So those should be right atop.

Andrew Leach

Looks as though I can't be logged into two SE sessions in two different browsers on the same machine. Oh well; it'll have to wait.

tchrist

22:17

None of us but Cerb is likely to need those code points.

If he.

If him?

None but him, none but he. Hate those.

Matt Эллен

I'd go with him

if them

yeah

tchrist

I think it is supposed to be oblique, because it is a preposition there not a conjunction.

Cerberus

Depends on whether but is best considered a preposition or a conjunction there.

tchrist

jynx

Cerberus

If I would always treat as a conjunction.

tchrist

22:19

No one but I am going to tell you the straight truth here.

Is in theory “wrong”.

Easy to roll out of your mouth though.

Cerberus

Many people seem to be afflicted by terror nominativi these days.

Andrew Leach

No-one but me am must be wronger.

Cerberus

I would say no one but I/me is going to be...

tchrist

No one but me is going to tell the straight truth here.

Urg.

Little old me is going to tell you.

Cerberus

@tchrist I'd probably go with I, but I would consult my betters, i.e. good style books.

They should have good arguments one way or the other.

Andrew Leach

22:21

Surely Noone but me is is right. You can take but me out.

tchrist

They’d probably say not to do something that makes people question it.

Cerberus

?

tchrist

@AndrewLeach Yeah. There was a question on this.

Cerberus

@AndrewLeach Exactly.

tchrist

JBJ has a curious answer.

Cerberus

22:22

@tchrist You don't mean the more than one man one?

tchrist

No, it was with but me/I.

Cerberus

Somehow, I tend towards nöne but I.

Matt Эллен

butt me no butts

tchrist

He did too, but couldn’t justify it.

I mean, not by rules, just by ear.

Cerberus

Andrew Leach

22:23

Neither by rules nor by ear.

Cerberus

> His ransom there is none but I shall pay: I'll hale the Dauphin headlong from his throne, — His crown shall be the ransom of my friend; Four of their lords I'll change for one of ours.

No, wait, that is right.

Matt Эллен

there are no ngram results for "none butter"

Cerberus

There is none but I who shall pay his ransom is what that means, isn't it?

Matt Эллен

so it must be subject

tchrist

But means but for or except for: it must be a preposition there.

Cerberus

22:25

Or does it mean there is no his ransom, but I shall pay?

tchrist

Mustn’t it? I’m blurbrained.

I need to find JBJ’s posting.

Cerberus

I would probably classify but like than, which never counts as a preposition, traditionally.

Never than me, ceteris paribus.

> And would you have her too? that must not be: For none but I must have her.

Andrew Leach

Poetry weirds case. EModE poetry even more so.

Cerberus

If but I was good enough for Shakespeare, so it must be for us.

> Have not I the Lord done it: without whom there is none other God? the true God and Saviour, and there is else none but I :

All from here. books.google.com/ngrams/…

Andrew Leach

Note that but I in those examples is always followed by a modal verb.

Matt Эллен

22:28

but I thought it wasn't

Andrew Leach

Not I/me am/is going to...

Matt Эллен

ain't I a stinker :D

Cerberus

Guthrie's translation of Aeschylus.

tchrist

As one of the people who use subject case after but, I can say that I at least think of but more as a conjunction than as a preposition. As such, the subject becomes whatever comes after but and agrees with that “Nobody but I am going to tell you this”, for example). Switching to an unambiguous preposition, except, I also switch to oblique case and no agreement with the ‘second subject’: “Nobody except me is going to tell you this”. — Janus Bahs Jacquet Jul 3 at 23:23

It was that one.

Cerberus

I don't like that, his nobody but I am.

tchrist

22:31

I shouldn’t’ve imagined you would. :)

Andrew Leach

How can but be a conjunction and except a preposition in that sentence?

tchrist

I still think he’s a native speaker of English.

Cerberus

And, indeed, I do not.

@AndrewLeach How do you mean, why can't it?

If you use a different word, you may change the construction.

Andrew Leach

Because they fulfil the same function.

Cerberus

Perhaps not syntactically.

Semantics is not necessarily related to syntax.

tchrist

22:32

@JanusBahsJacquet Great example, nice and short. Collocations in COCA for nobody but <PERS-PRONOUN> <VERB> are all over the map. These fragments show the issue: Nobody but Britany and I knew. nobody but me has the fight; So nobody but me has stayed; Nobody but us knows what's going to happen; where nobody but us ever goes; Nobody but you was ever good to me; nobody but he knows what anybody; a void that nobody but him knows about; to something nobody but her seemed to her; arguing laws nobody but they cared about; Nobody but the scientists were ever interested; nobody but slaves were. — tchrist Jul 4 at 0:06

Cerberus

Just because that hurts! and ouch! fulfil the same function, that doesn't mean they are the same syntactic construction.

tchrist

There is simply no consistency in COCA about this.

Cerberus

Pragmatics > semantics > syntax > morphology.

Locution and illocution may point in different directions.

Andrew Leach

If but and except are different, then everything else changes with them, surely?

Cerberus

@tchrist Many of those examples are not of the desired register. Besides, surely you wouldn't let random people in a corpus lead you, style-wise?

@AndrewLeach How do you mean?

tchrist

22:34

This is part of why I think he’s a native speaker. He’s doing the same things that native speakers do whether they make sense or not.

Andrew Leach

What is Nobody if it's followed immediately by a conjunction?

Cerberus

Except was no doubt originally a participle, not a preposition; but we have come to treat it as the latter.

tchrist

@Cerberus You’re right that I did not make a distinction between spoken, fiction, newspapers, journal articles, etc.

Cerberus

@AndrewLeach The subject? The conjunction but, if that it is*, is followed by an elliptical clause, then.

tchrist

@AndrewLeach Nobody and me are going.

That won’t work.

Nobody but me is going.

Nobody and I are going.

Blech.

Cerberus

22:36

@tchrist Even if you had, surely you criticise the sloppy language of young journalists these days, etc. etc. <grumpy voice> ?

tchrist

Nobody or I am going.

Not getting better.

Either I am going, or nobody is.

Andrew Leach

@tchrist That may be because Nobody is <Not-a-person> and you need a real corporeal something there.

Cerberus

I think you have a semantic problem there.

tchrist

@Cerberus I’m just reporting the findings, Your Honor.

Cerberus

<hammers> Very well, you may continue.

tchrist

22:38

It’s Your job to pass judgement.

Or to pass on passing judgement.

All I know is that these are gnarly.

Cerberus

I have so far suspended judgement.

tchrist

And native speakers do random things here.

Cerberus

Don't make me adjourn the session.

Matt Эллен

nobody but me is real
nobody but I am real
nobody but me is right
nobody but I am right

Cerberus

Nobody but I is right or real.

Matt Эллен

22:39

ha!

fie, I say!

tchrist

@Cerberus butbutbutbut

Cerberus

Foe!

Andrew Leach

Fum!

Cerberus

Order!

Politesse!

tchrist

Bailiff!

Andrew Leach

22:40

I need to go and lie down in a darkened room.

tchrist

If it feels good, say it.

If it doesn’t feel good, don’t say it.

@AndrewLeach You have been up too long.

Cerberus

Aww migraine?

Matt Эллен

@AndrewLeach a conjunction of confusing prepostions

Andrew Leach

@Cerberus Night-time. I'm several hours ahead.

Cerberus

@tchrist It's not that simple.

@AndrewLeach Oh, that thing.

We must always strive to hone our language.

Andrew Leach

22:42

I shall enjoy reading the transcript. Night all!

Cerberus

Night!

Matt Эллен

good night!

Matt Эллен

23:17

looks like Andrew will be disappointed :D

Cerberus

No darkness?

Oh, the transcript.

Robusto

23:44

-1

Q: Is there a term for 'Disregarding a persons opinion/argument because they haven't experienced it.'?

So today I was talking to some people at work about the health issues surrounding cigarettes and marijuana. I have no problem with either of those things but when people say there are absolutely no dangers from smoking marijuana I can't help but speak out and say that can't be true. Without a se...

Why is this not closed yet?

tchrist

Because nobody listens to me.

Or rather, not enough people do.

Robusto

Correct. I ain't nobody.

What about you, @Cerb?

One more vote required to send that one to the oubliette.

Cerberus

Of course I hate that question.

But I think it must be on topic.

tchrist

I don’t understand Cerb’s starred need. He lives in the hot red-light district of Europe’s capital of iniquity of all forms. Surely he need but lean out his window to procure a random fag.

Cerberus

Iniquity?

tchrist

23:50

Equity?

Cerberus

That would be closer to the truth?

But I don't know what you meant.

tchrist

It’s a teetertotter.

Cerberus

What?

tchrist

What floor do you live on?

Cerberus

The first.

tchrist

23:51

Is that zero based or one based?

Cerberus

Which I seem to remember is the second floor in your country?

My window sill is about 6 metres above street level.

tchrist

You have a zero based count.

Cerberus

Yes.

tchrist

So the ground floor is floor zero.

Cerberus

Indeed.

Robusto

23:53

@Cerberus That seems high for a first (second) floor.

Cerberus

I cleaned my windows this evening. I climbed on the scaffolding that is there now.

tchrist

You might have to lean further out.

Spiderman!

Cerberus

@Robusto It is. But many first floors are that high here.

Robusto

I actually like the European way of numbering floors. I've always been partial to zero-based arrays.

Cerberus

@Robusto I think it is because all houses used to have a belle-étage as their "primary" floor.

tchrist

23:53

I’m sure my second-story windows are not so crazy high.

Cerberus

@Robusto I remember finding it confusing as a child.

tchrist

@Cerberus This time in English?

Cerberus

A belle-étage is like the 0.5th floor, zero-based.

Robusto

@Cerberus Erdgeschoss in German?

Cerberus

Underneath it will be a souterrain.

tchrist

23:54

@Cerberus Or even in French, SVP.

Cerberus

@Robusto Erdgeschoss is just the ground floor?

Robusto

Ground floor in America, except the elevator buttons are numbered G - 2 - 3 ...

Cerberus

@tchrist Why is that not French?

tchrist

Parce que c’est un étage, pas *une étage.

Robusto

@Cerberus Oh, is the bell stage really a mezzanine?

Cerberus

23:55

Huh. The term is really and positively belle-étage in Dutch...

tchrist

C’est pour ça qu’on dirait bel étage.

Cerberus

Oh, wait, maybe it's bel-étage.

Right, I misspole.

tchrist

fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/bel_%C3%A9tage

Cerberus

But the sound is right.

tchrist

Merde.

Dumb ass thingie.

Robusto

23:56

Stop arguing punctilios of orthography and answer me question.

tchrist

Still fucked.

Cerberus

@Robusto Hmm no, a mezzanine or entresol is really in between floors, so on top of a regular ground floor, for example. A bel-étage you enter by climbing steps ca. 1.5 metres high.

Robusto

@Cerberus Steps for giants?

Cerberus

Haha.

tchrist

What’s so pretty about it, and how does that have anything to do with stratospheric ceilings?

Cerberus

23:58

A flight of steps that is half a floor in height.

tchrist

That is not a flight of steps.

That is a half-flight.

More of a puddle jumper, really.

Cerberus

@tchrist Usually, the "good" rooms were on the bel-étage. It was safe from flooding and other unpleasantness.

Robusto

And there is a similar half-rack going down?

tchrist

A flight of stairs is always a full story up.

Or down.

Cerberus

tchrist

23:59

Smaller amounts than a whole floor aren’t flighty.

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…