English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

@badass Hahaha. Nice use of accidental subjunctive there, too.

what is a Rest. association?

restaurant!

I get it now :D

I don't get it.

6:14 PM

@Robusto "Grateful" being a veiled command?

@MattЭллен Why do the Jewish eat Chinese food on Xmas?

because everywhere else is shut?

I don't know, I'm not jewish

@Cerberus "...that your god insist ..."

@MattЭллен This.

Oh yeah, insist without the s.

subjunctive

Wi-fi kills plants, students find.

6:17 PM

@MattЭллен we are good, thank you.

oh, cool :D

@MattЭллен I think I get this one.

yay!

@MattЭллен All shops here are open on Xmas.

6:22 PM

nope

I mean, where I am.

oh!

@Robusto Yes, but how do we explain or validate the subjunctive? Because the main clause "are grateful" is to be read as a veiled command?

@MattЭллен Aww horrible!

they never knew it was their mother

Okay, then.

6:26 PM

@RegDwigнt Yeah! What the hell about him?

@MattЭллен It's OK as long as it's nobody we know.

phew

@MattЭллен Exactly. Because they don't do christmas either so they stay open.

@Mitch we needed your help but then we no longer needed your help.

@Robusto that was no accident.

@RegDwigнt Dammit I would gladly have refused my help then, and now I can't.

@Mitch It's okay, we'll try to not need your help again tomorrow.

In which case I'll ping you.

6:29 PM

I did not offer much help.

@JasperLoy Better to ask why do they then go see a movie afterwards.

@RegDwigнt nice

So which hats are you still missing?

@whoabackoff but 'reactive' is not before the event (like preemptive and proactive) but after.

Oh my lord, you're missing quite a few.

@RegDwigнt The Miracle hat.

6:31 PM

@RegDwigнt What? I have all the hats coming to me.

I got a bunch of candles.

Well seven ain't bad, make no mistake. That's OVER 9000 Jaspers.

The thing is, you could easily have OVER 19000.

Q: What is a feminine version of 'guys'?

Actually, iIt would be totally cool to get a gold out of ...

97

I commonly use the word 'guys' to refer to a group of males colloquially. It's colloquial but not rude, off putting, condescending, patronizing (though I wouldn't use it with a group of men at a board meeting (hypothetically of course), unless I knew them). So, some that I would not consider as r...

So close!

You'll get there alright.

It would be cool to get 2 upvotes to get a flair for me...

6:33 PM

You should flag some comments as obsolete.

That one's usually quite easy.

Especially if you have asked questions, which you have. Then you can just go through them.

@Cerberus Problems with grain distribution was the main cause. All else follows. OK, solved...next problem?

You can also do some reviewing in all the queues.

@RegDwigнt that's a thing?

Umm...

I think you'll find the main problem was that they didn't speak English.

6:34 PM

@Mitch why sure.

It's a good thing, actually. Cleaning up stuff like "you have a typo there" "thanks fixed"

Yay, I now have 200 on ELU!!!!!!!

It's time to retire.

@MattЭллен That was caused by not distributing grain properly. I'm looking for primary causes. Not being able to speak properly is an obvious effect.

@Mitch but which came first? The cart or the horse?

I need a thing to reopen.

@JasperLoy How about you retire from retiring? Just think about it. In the sum, you have spent whole days of your life just on retiring. You could have had an icecream instead.

6:37 PM

@MattЭллен That problem would have been fixed if only the grain had been properly distributed. Obviously.

@MattЭллен The chick, of course.

@RegDwigнt I think that's a pretty good compromise. I would take it. The ice ream that is.

@Cerberus I see, so Rome fell because of bird 'flu. It's so obvious now.

Haha.

@Mitch everyone always takes the ice cream. And kills Hitler. And in this order, too.

6:38 PM

@MattЭллен Does one usually write 'flu instead of flu???

@Cerberus I've had that discussion and the answer is neither. Even though scientifically someone proved it's one of them. I can't remember which.

@JasperLoy I do. other people might not

If it were influenza, they should write 'flu' instead, lol.

I say the egg.

There is no genetic change between egg and chicken.

One apostrophe in front and one behind.

I say the chicken came before the egg.

6:40 PM

which came first: multicelled organisms or an atmosphere > 20% oxygen?

@MattЭллен Don't make me beat your dead horse...um tied to a cart. All the plagues,(and bird flu was one of them) was caused by a surplus of grain being exported to areas that didn't need it causing famine in the other, leading to gum disease and inability to speak English properly. And then something about ice cream. I can't remember...too many details.

Hello.

@MattЭллен Hmm I wouldn't know.

@SF. Yo!

Hello.

How life formed on earth is described in the Agganna Sutta.

6:41 PM

Long time no see! I think.

@RegDwigнt Nooo! the first error of time travel! Wait, can I still have the ice cream?

Re: influenza. Yesterday someone on an intl forum said he has influenza, and was because of that suspected to be a foreigner - is that really uncommon wording for native English speakers?

@MattЭллен Ha ha...exactly. They were all underwater.

@SF. HAI!

@SF. Yes, I think it is uncommon.

6:42 PM

Well, I don't often use interactive media like chats etc.

But do you often use hats?

I see you are sporting one right now!

Which came first, 'which', 'came', or 'first'?

That is a hard one.

The hard one came first?

Do they have hard hats on offer?

6:44 PM

@Transmissionfrom Where is your hat?

@SF. do you want three new hats? For just one edit?

@JasperLoy In the closet.

There are five

Got an airplane helmet in ELL, seems better than har hat.

Reg, which ones? How?

I want a har hat.

6:45 PM

comments here

har har har.

@SF. in this answer here, I am not sure why the one paragraph is in italics. It makes no sense. I'd fix it, but I'd get zero hats for that. If you do it in my stead, you'll get three hats.

please upvote them

@SF. Most people would say the flu, probably?

@SF. sounds a bit like a news report

6:47 PM

@MattЭллен I only see four.

Well, fixed. Now to wait for the system to notice it.

Excellent! Enjoy your hats. And BTW, you want the Unicorn hat?

@RegDwigнt I've posted 5 links... I think they're to different comments

@MattЭллен I searched that page for "Matt". Got 4 hits.

probably folded up

6:49 PM

Ah yes, there it is.

I thought I had unfolded everything.

thnx!

whoabackoff

@mitch yeah, I was looking for a word that was 'after the event'.

A: Exception to 30 character minimum for answers

I am only six upvotes short of a hat on this one:

34

Simply link the word to its dictionary definition. Observe: Ghoti. — 6 characters. Ghoti. — 56 characters. This pushes your answer over the 30-character limit and makes it considerably more helpful, as the OP might not know that word. In fact, that might be the very reason why he's ...

@RegDwigнt be behatted. at least by me.

@RegDwigнt getting to 40 gets you something?

6:52 PM

I'll even return the favor by getting anyone involved the secret Unicorn hat.

SECRET UNICORNS

@Mitch Guru on Meta gets you something. The Jeff Atwood hat, to be precise.

In a great karmic joke, the first one to get it on ELU was Kosmonaut.

fuck jeff atwood. i don't want his hat.

4

@JSBձոգչ thank you kind hunter.

@JSBձոգչ I see it as a scalp.

A trophy.

@RegDwigнt Oh. Nice. I'm only around 40 votes away from that.

6:53 PM

@Mitch yeah it's no walk in the park.

@JSBձոգչ You could wash it first?

So yeah, @JSB, as I promised, you want the secret Unicorn?

Geezis, it's been so long and you guys still hate JA?

@RegDwigнt sure. i like unicorns.

So there's a hat for starred chat room items?

6:55 PM

@JasperLoy we don't hate him. We wear him as a hat.

OK Do me hats!

btw i think my "fuck jeff atwood" should get a star

what with all the other crap we've been starring lately

Done

thank you kind sir

Geezis.

6:56 PM

@JSBձոգչ head over to this meta thread. It's quite strange, isn't it? All these comments about points. Just post a couple comments of yours. You don't even have to be witty. But make sure there are five comments of yours in total. That is all.

No he doesn't get any hats, he's not in the room.

@RegDwigнt -5- comments? That seems like a lot. A lot to not make sense.

@Mitch you have posted one already, no? Just four more for the road.

@RegDwigнt 5 comments on that post, or 5 total, anywhere on meta?

@JSBձոգչ on that post. Anywhere. Can be in the same thread. Though it's funnier if them's all over the page.

Who's got the top hat?

6:59 PM

i see the point

@j.r. you said you wanted in on the secret? Drop by here and I'll let you in. You'll get a secret Unicorn hat in the process.

@Matt you mind helping out with you know what in you know which meta thread? This time it's for JSB, SF. and Mitch.

aye aye

Daily vote limit reached for myself.

I wonder if it's on meta only or if I can't vote on the main site either.

Someone else give Matt an uptick for this in return.

And then I'd say have fun enjoying your hats, all of you!

I can only see 3 @SF. Comments

do i need to go upvoting comments willy-nilly in that thread? will i be earning hats or helping others get their hats?

7:05 PM

@JSBձոգչ two upticks for everything is plenty good. Don't waste ammo. Make it count.

sorry, been busy. Blown fuse. Trying to find which of 6 devices plugged into the power strip is at fault. Guess which was.

2

:|

Why did the American police put their fingers inside an Indian diplomat when she was arrested for a fraudulent employment contract? What does the contract have to do with drugs smuggling?

[kettle, slowcooker, fridge, microwave, fan, stove]

Fan?

7:06 PM

Nope. Keep guessing.

@Cerberus they were checking to see if she was smuggling illegal immigrants

In her womb?

microwave

Not a heating device...

@Cerberus maybe...

7:07 PM

Fridge!

Nope.

The others are heating devices!

You're cheating!

Well, the power strip itself.

:D

I knew it.

7:08 PM

@SF. that was my first guess

Funny, I misses your guess.

Now you all say you knew :D

@Cerberus Isn't that standard procedure?

But at least I am not serious!

@Transmissionfrom If so, why on earth?

Johan Larsson

7:09 PM

@Matt I see four @SF. comments now.

@Cerberus Why not?

@SF. one more comment is still missing.

@JohanLarsson Haha, I love it.

@Transmissionfrom Why would you violate someone's body unless you had a really good reason?

@Cerberus If I violated your beautiful body, would you hold it against me?

Perv!!

7:10 PM

@Cerberus Wishing to follow standard procedure is a very good reason.

Why would anyone come up with such a weird "standard procedure"?

I am off to munch dinner. BRB

@Cerberus Have you been to a doctor lately?

YOU WILL ADMIRE MY HORN

@MετάEd I do!

Wait, I'm just saying that. Which horn are you talking about?

7:12 PM

@Mitch Yes, and he did not do that to me!

@MετάEd *SHALL

Oh. I thought that was a mohawk or crown (same thing really).

@Mitch THE ONE ON MY HEAD

Where's the OFF button?

@Cerberus Oh. Hm... I wondered about that.

@Cerberus No need. Just follow the power cord.

7:14 PM

@MετάEd I'm sorry, I can't hear you very well. Can you speak up?

rips out power cord

whirrr....appp. THUD tinkle tinkle roll ring ring ring ring snap

At last.

i also haz horn, but i'm sticking with my stylish helmet

Some peace and quiet here. All this chatting is just wrong.

7:16 PM

@KitFox IKR! Because she's -talking-.

A: Is there a single word for the faith a user of magic has in the efficacy of a magical object or act?

I am still flogging this one:

2 hours ago, by MετάEd

0

Faith is commonly used in your context in the wild. Some examples: “Magic requires faith” (“Magical Faith” at Malewitch.com) “Will my style of ‘magick’ work if I have no faith in it anymore?” (“Faith and Magick” at Doing Magick is Being Magick!) “I said in the introduction that magick is Holist...

@Cerberus Exactly. Just everyone be quiet for just a moment.

Thanks.

Now go on.

phew

@Mitch Shhhhh.

Be vewwy, vewwy quiet.

We-a hunting HATS.

@Cerberus Did American police finger the Indian diplomat? (Front and/or backside?)

7:17 PM

@Transmissionfrom All sides, apparently.

Really? Link?

@MετάEd Ha ha. Without reading your answer I thought 'Obviously. Faith'. How did you steal my answer from the past?

@Transmissionfrom nrc.nl/nieuws/2013/12/18/…

@Cerberus Holy cow!

Hey, that's not a very nice thing to say to an Indian woman.

7:20 PM

@Cerberus The translation to English doesn't say any thing as invasive as you say.

Even though cows are indeed holy to Hundus...

@Mitch "Visit" = penetrate.

@Mitch It does.

But I read about this yesterday from another source where they said something like "fingered front and back".

Although I 'd say 'or' not 'and/or'.

What?

7:22 PM

Gevisiteerd. Either front or back will suffice.

@Cerberus That sounds terrible and I find hard to believe. So my inclination is semantic shifting.

Uhh I assure you, that is what it means.

And, as I said, I have also read this elsewhere.

AGirlSaidMySmileIsCute

Would this be ok or would it be just awkward and weird?

> The league kicks off its 2014 season with a high supply of entertainment.

@Mitch Shifting which way?

sure, but I think there's a lot of room for false friends to have things move in meaning from one thing to another.

7:23 PM

@AGirlSaidMySmileIsCute Large supply?

@Mitch I explained to you what the Dutch means. Trust me or don't.

Is the milliner hat awarded at the end of a day?

e.g. 'violated' in English means 'rules of normal social behavior were broken' but in a European context (at least French) 'violer' is quite a bit more serious.

Fine, then doubt my knowledge of Dutch.

@Mitch No, 'visiteren' (Dutch) is exclusively fingering a person in their private parts.

@Cerberus I don't doubt your understanding of the Dutch word.

7:25 PM

Then what do you mean?

@Transmissionfrom I'm surprised that that word is used in a national newspaper then.

Why?

It is of course a euphemism, just as toucheren, which means the same thing.

@Cerberus I don't know about 'toucheren', but 'visiteren' can be taken quite literally: visiting the body.

Literally?

It is a euphemism for "stick my fingers up your orifices".

I mean if the original report said 'This person was violated' then one would be led to believe that something uncomfortable happened to them (like disrobing in front of many people, a terrible thing to do). But it might be too easily translated to 'Les gendarmes l'a viole' which would be something much much worse.

7:28 PM

@Transmissionfrom I don't find that literal.

@Mitch It seems very unlikely for a quality newspaper to get an essential fact wrong based on a translation.

@Mitch I would be surprised by the NRC to make such mistakes, but they are getting more sloppy, like everybody else these days.

I doubt things because they seem so extreme and unllikely.

What is more, it seems very unlikely for the Indian government to specifically get upset about the fingering if that was a mistranslation.

Like 'toucheren' could also mean 'to fondle' which also a violation, is not as terribly unnacceptable as what you're saying 'visitieren' is.

@Mitch It cannot mean that in Dutch. It means only one thing.

abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/…

> cavity searches

7:32 PM

@Cerberus To be clear, they should get upset about the diplomatic access even if none of this other stuff happened. This other stuff (about which we're wondereing about word games) is off the charts unnacceptable. I just doubt that it really did go that far.

@Cerberus Oh.

OK.

Then it is that terrible.

India is having enough trouble as it is with press about their own male-female troubles, and then this. Thanks USA.

@Mitch I don't think it is reasonable to trust an American newspaper but not a Dutch newspaper btw.

@Cerberus Singluar insist there puts it into a state where it may suggest that such a thing is not actual (indicative) but potential or unproven, however much desired, and that the speaker may in fact doubt the assertion.

@Mitch What do you mean "the diplomatic access"?

> Indian officials have alleged that the 39-year-old diplomat was strip-searched, cavity-searched and swabbed for DNA after her arrest — washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/…

@Cerberus I'm not mistrusting the Dutch paper, I'm mistrusting translation. I don't know Dutch and the meanings and nuances of words, so I can't tell what is really being said.

@Cerberus Oh, so it only her saying so, as well as saying (merely) "cavity searches", which could mean her mouth (only).

7:36 PM

@Robusto Okay, so a very old-fashioned subjunctive...why not!

Hey, we take what we can get.

@Mitch A translation of what? Hindi? Inglish?

@Transmissionfrom I don't think cavity searches ever means only one's mouth! And, yes, all of this just what she says.

@Cerberus I didn't know anything of the story except the links here. by diplomatic access, I presumed she was trying to enter the US and was denied, and then incarcerated.

Oh, no.

@Cerberus English to Dutch.

7:38 PM

She is a diplomat who lives in New York.

Hence the uproar.

@Cerberus In English, cavity search means literally any body orifice, but usually means ... down there, front or back.

@Cerberus Without her being specific, I assume she might (perhaps later) specify "her mouth".

@Cerberus I get it all now.

She was arrested at home over some fraudulent contract with her maid.

alleged.

7:39 PM

@Mitch Exactly.

@Transmissionfrom I am with Mitch here.

@Cerberus Yes, but, if not true in that sense, she might get away with a "mouth only" explanation.

I find that extremely unlikely.

@Cerberus I believe the NRC shouldn't have translated and stuck with the literal quote.

@Cerberus No, you don't, because you find the alternative equally unlikely.

A: Expression for an 'end-to-end product development process'

Can I get a third opinion on this answer of mine? I am specifically concerned about the idea that "cycle" implies habitual or automated.

0

A set of relevant terms use the root "cycle": Product cycle Lifecycle Product lifecycle Development cycle Wikipedia seems to prefer product lifecycle management (PLM): In industry, product lifecycle management (PLM) is the process of managing the entire lifecycle of a product from incepti...

@Transmissionfrom None of the newspapers in any language seem to have the literal quote from the Indian government. It seems there is no doubt that she was fingered down there.

@Transmissionfrom Uh what?

7:45 PM

@Cerberus Apparently it is her word. Apparently her word is "cavity". Unless specified that could mean her nostrils, ears, mouth, box, or ass. (Am I missing some?)

> ... I must admit that I broke down many times as the indignities of repeated handcuffing, stripping and cavity searches, swabbing, hold up with common criminals and drug addicts were all being imposed upon me despite my incessant assertions of immunity... — washingtonpost.com/world/…

@Transmissionfrom I disagree. It must mean downunder.

Swabbing isn't an indignity. If you think that, you might also consider peeking into your ears an indignity.

Body cavity search

A body cavity search is either a visual search or a manual internal inspection of body cavities such as for prohibited material (contraband), such as illegal drugs, money, jewelry, or weapons. It is far more invasive than the standard strip search that is typically performed on individuals taken into custody, either upon police arrest or incarceration at a jail, prison, or psychiatric hospital. Often the procedure is repeated when the person leaves the institution. Body cavity searches may also be conducted by the U.S. Customs and Border Protection when they suspect international travele...

Body cavity

By the broadest definition, a body cavity is any fluid-filled space in a multicellular organism, other than those of vessels (such as blood vessels and lymph vessels). However, the term usually refers to the space located between an animal’s outer covering (epidermis), and the outer lining of the gut cavity, where internal organs develop. "The human body cavity", normally refers to the ventral body cavity, because it is by far the largest one in volume. Grouping The type of body cavity places an organism into one of three groups: * Coelomates or Coelomata (also known as eucoelomates — "...

@Transmissionfrom I think taking someone's DNA for no good reason is an indignity, and the same applies to stinking something inside someone's mouth, but those are probably not the greatest of the indignities she was made to endure.

"Ma'am, I'm sorry, but I need to search your spinal cavity."

7:50 PM

@Cerberus We'll have a bet. If it turns out that she'll rephrase her statement to "looking into her mouth", I'll get all your hats. Otherwise, you can have mine.

I have no specific opinion on whether or not she is speaking the truth.

@Cerberus The point is that in the mouth case she is also speaking the truth, albeit not in a conventional way.

I do not consider that the truth.

If you strongly mislead people, that's as good as a lie.

and in a very misleading way, if she said cavity and meant mouth.

@Cerberus Genau.

Misleading is not the same thing a lying.

7:52 PM

Besides, if she was strip-searched, it seems likely that her lower self was violated as well.

@Transmissionfrom That isn't what Cerberus claimed.

@MrHen Yes it is.

@Transmissionfrom It's not the same thing but it can lead to the same problems.

@Transmissionfrom If you want to look at it from a philosophical perspective, you can always make up a weird interpretation in which any lies becomes truth.

Q: Is English particularly well suited for so-called "natural language programming"?

0

Programming languages like sEnglish, Inform7, WolframAlpha, and even AppleScript purport to use the "natural language programming" (NLP) paradigm. Even SQL is a kind of NLP, if you think about it. Since I've only ever seen these in English, I wonder if the grammar and syntax of English make it a...

expressions programming logic

This is my whorish contribution to the Hat Holidays.

7:53 PM

Especially if it is intentional

> If you strongly mislead people, that's as good as a lie.

If I say "by cavity I meant the metaphorical cavity in my private space, i.e. a radius of 80 cm around my body"...

@Robusto should we answer for real? What is the hat you're looking for?

@MrHen "as good as" != "is"

@Cerberus If video footage turns up, and it was established that she was searched in her mouth only, she would be fine by claiming that that is precisely what she meant/said.

Haha @Rob already has a close vote.

There should be a hat for that.

Fastest Hat In The West.

7:55 PM

@Transmissionfrom I would not call that "fine".

@Mitch Correct. That was my point.

@Mitch I can't tell you how to answer. I'm just wondering where this will go.