English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

David Wallace

20:00

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Absolutely not.

KitFox

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 My boys had access to both. They were not interested in nuturing play.

David Wallace

Children who are young enough not to know that they're "supposed to" prefer cars or prefer dolls will still, MOST of the time, follow the expected preference.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox whereas my boy is. So generalizing based on a few data points is meaningless.

David Wallace

@KitFox Let me go out on a limb and label your boys as exceptional.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DavidWallace I don't believe that.

KitFox

20:01

I'm just saying it's not necessarily a learned behavior.

My boys like to play dress-up.

David Wallace

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, it's MY experience, from the children that I have observed.

KitFox

But they wear superhero costumes.

Mitch

@DavidWallace Ha! shut up! everyone's kids are exceptional. Some just don't live up to potential.

David Wallace

My son's dolls are called "action figures", for some reason.

KitFox

They engage in cooperative play, but in a different way than my niece does.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

20:02

Anyway, even if that is the case. wouldn't it be beneficial to teach boys nurturing? It's pretty important. Teaching them cooperation instead of combat? etc.

Matt Эллен

but they'll never win in fights if they try to cooperate.

David Wallace

So do we want our children, when they play with toys, to have fun, or to learn their parents' values?

KitFox

They look out for each other, but the nurturing that they like is different than caring for a doll baby.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DavidWallace Both.

David Wallace

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Good luck with that.

KitFox

20:03

And I don't want to bog down my brain with being worried that I might be teaching my boys stereotypical gender roles by accident.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DavidWallace are you serious? when my kids play I am constantly teaching values to them.

David Wallace

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I'm delighted to hear that. But don't expect the toys to help you.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox well, you are, everyone is, there's no way to raise a gender-free child.

Mitch

@KitFox assuming there's something wrong with stereotypical gender roles.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DavidWallace Why shouldn't I expect the toys to help me?

David Wallace

20:04

The child will play with whichever toys they find the most fun.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

The toys are products that I buy. If a toy doesn't promote the values I care about, I won't let my children have it. That's called parenting.

tchrist

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 What about gay boys and gay girls? Do they like “the other” kind of toys, or doesn’t it work that way at all?

KitFox

Well, my boys like the toys I tell them to like.

Mitch

"boy toy" now sounds almost OK.

tchrist

passes @Mitch a boy toy for his delectation

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

20:05

@tchrist I don't know. I don't know any children whose sexuality has been confirmed one way or another.

David Wallace

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 What happens when they get birthday presents from people?

Mitch

@tchrist Thanks, but no, I just had a snack.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DavidWallace If I don't think the toy is appropriate they don't get to keep it.

KitFox

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 The gayest kid I know still plays with boy toys.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I know...that happens at confirmation.

tchrist

20:06

@Mitch Don’t worry, this one tastes like chicken.

David Wallace

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Haha, you're obviously not married to my ex-wife.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox All the kids I know are 5 and under. I haven't a clue if any of them are gay or not.

tchrist

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 They probably haven’t, either.

KitFox

We knew this kid was gay really early on.

It's been good for his dad.

tchrist

Good how so?

Knowing?

Or simply having a son?

KitFox

20:07

To get used to the idea and also to realize that there's no way he can change it.

tchrist

Ah.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DavidWallace no, but seriously. isn't one of my duties as a parent to ensure that my values get passed on to my child? especially if I perceive that society's values aren't in line with my own, and I disapprove of society in this regard? And if a toy undermines that, shouldn't I withhold it?

tchrist

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Please don’t give children toy guns.

That kind of thing?

KitFox

My boys have lots of toy guns.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist They only toy guns in the house are the kinds that minifigs have.

When the kids are older, they might have water guns.

David Wallace

20:09

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 There's a difference between undermining values and just not teaching any.

KitFox

We use them when negotiations fail.

tchrist

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Teach them to fill balloons with water to make water grenades.

David Wallace

@KitFox You are NOT serious!

KitFox

Speaking of which, in the car a couple of days ago, my almost 3-year-old son says "Mommy, when I'm big enough to be a pirate, I'm gonna kill all these cars with my sword."

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DavidWallace Well, I can be flexible. If a toy only undermines my values a little, or whatever, then maybe I just discuss it with my children. But they don't just get unfettered access to every toy ever made.

KitFox

20:10

I said, "Why would you do that, honey?"

He says, "Well, because they wouldn't listen to me."

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Don't you think the freedom to make their own choices is also important?

KitFox

I said, "I think there are more constructive ways to resolve your differences."

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus they aren't informed enough to make their own choices.

KitFox

He was quiet awhile, then he said. "Yeah, I guess they could think about it for awhile."

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox my three-year-old is always going on about shooting stuff. He gets it from his friends at day-care. It bugs me.

Mitch

20:12

@KitFox I know! They should pull over and let us through!

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 If you tell them what to play with all the time, don't you think that teaches them that freedom and being an individual are not important?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I understand that, and it would bug me too; but it has little or no bearing on what he will be like as an adult.

KitFox

It's true though, we have a lot of guns. Gramma likes to get them dart guns. I asked her to please stop with the projectile weapons.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Are you kidding? "tell them what to play with all the time"? It's not like that at all. They have lots of toys. all kinds of play possibilities. But certain toys they don't have, and won't.

Cerberus

Like which?

Mitch

@KitFox and they could do that if they pulled over. Learn what they're doing wrong by being in my way. It'd be the right thing to do.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

20:13

@Cerberus well, like guns for instance.

Matt Эллен

like Cerberus Dolls

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Really?

tchrist

Cerberus is a doll now?

Cerberus

@MattЭллен !

Matt Эллен

Yeah, too much hades

Mitch

20:13

what? It's not a doll?

tchrist

thinks they’ll all toying with the pup

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus yes, really. What do they need guns for? I want to discourage violence.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 We had tons of toy guns in all sizes and shapes. Didn't make us murderous terrorists.

Matt Эллен

tchrist

OFFS

Cerberus

20:14

@MattЭллен Awww I like!

Matt Эллен

:D

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It isn't about making you into murderous terrorists. It's about teaching problem solving through non-violence.

KitFox

We also have a selection of light sabers.

Cerberus

Although I'd prefer to be in the company of some classica.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 And do you really think having toy guns or not has any influence on that?

KitFox

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, that. It's important.

Cerberus

20:15

Surely you talk to them about this?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It is part of the message.

KitFox

It's why I wish I had been more careful with the littlest.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Don't you think you're confusing symbols and play with the real thing? Like Whorfianism?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus But it's not just a matter of lecturing them one time. It is about setting up a culture.

tchrist

@Cerberus All sizes and shapes? Probably did permanent damage.

KitFox

20:16

Having toy guns means play involving toy guns, which means imaginative play involving using violence.

Cerberus

@tchrist Only to the house.

tchrist

found Cerb’s toy gun

Matt Эллен

my dad banned toy swords, but only so we couldn't hit him with them

KitFox

That's punishment enough.

tchrist

Get nerf.

Matt Эллен

20:16

@tchrist lol

KitFox

@MattЭллен I taught my boys some blade basics.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I am not confusing play with the real thing. Children can actually be violent, you know. And I can't monitor them all the time: they do play "shoot the bad guy", etc. The point is that not allowing toy guns is a message from me to them, about my values.

Matt Эллен

well, that was a loooong time ago. I don't think nerf was around then.

tchrist

If you take their swords, they will pick up sticks.

Cerberus

@KitFox I read a study once that said that it's good for children to play with taboo things and situation, to fully explore those concepts, and that it results in their being more able to judge these issues.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

20:17

@tchrist what the heck is that

KitFox

@tchrist Then you play baseball.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 The Punisher.

What did you think?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But you already tell them not to be violent.

KitFox

@Cerberus Yeah, you can do whatever you want with your own kids.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus you have to tell kids stuff over and over before they hear it. You need to match your actions to your words. etc.

Cerberus

Playing with a toy gun is not the same as using a real gun, nor is it the same as being encouraged to actually use violence.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

20:19

You can't just say "don't be violent". They are 3 and 5 years old. They need constant guidance.

KitFox

@Cerberus You don't understand.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Did I tell you about the things we did with Playmobil?

I suppose it depends on the age of the child what is appropriate.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus No. But what does that have to do with my kids?

@Cerberus yes. indeed it does.

And certain kinds of violent play might be appropriate while others are not.

Cerberus

Well, we broke every taboo their was in our play, and it only taught us what they're like and how to deal with them.

KitFox

The eldest never saw superheroes until he was three or maybe older.

The youngest grew up with them

tchrist

20:20

@Cerberus Every taboo? Really? Name seven.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Like, shooting monsters in Doom is one kind of violent. Beating up children in Bully is a different kind. Guess which kind will be allowed here (when they are older) and which will be banned?

KitFox

I wish, really wish, I had been stricter about keeping that away from him until he was older.

The difference in their behaviors is striking.

tchrist

Cute choice of words.

KitFox

Well, literally and figuratively.

Cerberus

@tchrist Child labour. Slavery. Torture. Snobbery. Theft. Inequality. Racism.

KitFox

20:21

And look where it got you, eh?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox it could be their nature.

Matt Эллен

now you're a three headed dog guarding souls

tchrist

How do you break the taboo against child labor? Unplanned pregnancy?

KitFox

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Maybe, but the littlest is notably more violent and less focused.

Cerberus

Interestingly, we never ever did things or played stories that had to do with sex. Sex was absolutely taboo with Playmobil.

Matt Эллен

20:22

is that what your parents dreamt for you?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox mine is too.

KitFox

I think it's my fault.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox too much alcohol in his blood-surrogate before he was decanted?

Matt Эллен

I think that's the same for second children. my brother was much the same

Cerberus

@tchrist We made leaflets recommending fun child camps, and on the flip side we described the real camps, which were child labour camps. We were 10 or so.

KitFox

20:23

Anyway, I have to go pick them up. We're hatching our Vampire fish tonight!

Matt Эллен

yay!

Cerberus

Did any of you play stories or situations that had anything to do with sexuality?

KitFox

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I should have spent more time with him in his earlier years.

Now he's all set in stone.

tchrist

@Cerberus No.

Cerberus

Maybe that's normal?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

20:24

@KitFox yeah. Us too. second child syndrome. What can you do? your resources are strained.

Cerberus

@tchrist Did you play stories that violated other taboos?

KitFox

It's not fair.

tchrist

@Cerberus I would have to be aware of them, and I don’t think I Was.

KitFox

I think he won't love me as much when he's grown.

tchrist

In the small fishing village where I grew up, we had no idea what a taboo even was.

Matt Эллен

20:25

@KitFox awww bless. yes he will

Cerberus

@tchrist Surely you know it was inappropriate to, say, sell drugs or torture slaves?

tchrist

Didn’t know about drugs.

Cerberus

Steal things? Be an extreme snob?

KitFox

@MattЭллен I guess as long as he's happy and well-adjusted, it doesn't matter.

tchrist

Being an extreme snob was not a taboo.

Obviously.

KitFox

20:26

Later!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox sure he will.

Cerberus

I mean taboo in the sociological sense: something that you know is bad behaviour.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus you're just trolling him with that one, aren't you

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 ? No?

Matt Эллен

@KitFox CU

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

20:27

@Cerberus lol

I have to get going, cya later

Cerberus

I'm talking about extreme snobbery.

Bye.

Matt Эллен

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 bye

Cerberus

As in, my Playmobil character really liked cooking, but she was ashamed to admit it, so she dressed up as a servant while cooking, so nobody would know.

tchrist

We just talked about burning the neighbors’ garbage bins.

Cerberus

My brother's character liked weaving.

tchrist

20:28

Not sure anybody ever really did it.

RegDwighт

It's funny how the debate went. I was surprised to see Mr Shiny take the position he took. I was less surprised to see Kit take hers, but it's not typical, either.

Cerberus

I missed most of the debate.

tchrist

@Cerberus You played a girl? Really? We never played girls.

Cerberus

I also had a wizard.

tchrist

That’s different.

Cerberus

20:29

Merlin.

His daughter, Yelline, was the extreme snob.

But everyone did all the other bad things.

tchrist

I don’t think guys ever considered playing girls. You might get cooties.

Cerberus

Hah.

We all played boys and girls.

tchrist

Yunguns.

Cerberus

And we still refer to our girl characters with fond memories.

My brother was Féa.

RegDwighт

Anyway. I will say just this. LEGO is one of very few, if not the only, company, that actually makes it laughably easy to teach your kid whatever you want. Don't like the killer ninja robot? Part it out to build a fluffy bunny. Don't like fluffy bunnies? Use the bricks to build a fully functional handgun.

tchrist

20:31

I’m kinda surprised @Kit recognized the Punisher.

RegDwighт

Don't like the beauty salon? Buy the oil rig. And swap the male heads with female ones if you want to. Don't care for the stupid car in pink? Build it in 20+ other colors, or buy any of the 100+ other car sets readily available at any given moment.

Cerberus

My friend's brother was Mathilda. He's still in my contact list as Mathilda.

tchrist

@Cerberus Yes, but in his contact list you’re probably Louise.

Cerberus

@RegDwighт Yeah, that;s pretty cool.

RegDwighт

It's not LEGO's job to teach my kids whatever values I deem necessary. It's mine.

Cerberus

20:31

@tchrist Yelline, rather.

tchrist

Why are all the LEGO characters grim now?

Cerberus

My brother and I played both girls and boys with Lego, but usually knights.

RegDwighт

Just like every time some teenager screws up, the parents are so quick to blame the teachers or the media or his friends or whatever.

Cerberus

Lego is more about building than stories anyway.

@RegDwighт Agreed.

tchrist

It's not just Internet comments that have gotten angrier over the years: recent research reveals that the faces of Lego characters are also more mad than they were a decade or two ago.

@RegDwighт Yes. It’s lame. They forget where the buck stops.

Cerberus

20:34

Yeah, we've heard the news.

RegDwighт

@tchrist pardon me?

tchrist

@RegDwighт The citation given just below.

RegDwighт

I know.

tchrist

Those aren’t Barbies, are they?

RegDwighт

I've seen that on Reddit, and Rob posted it last week, too.

tchrist

20:36

Cerberus

@RegDwighт OMG That's horrible.

RegDwighт

My point is, people bitch about Friends being girly and people bitch about minifigs being ferocious, and often these are the exact same people.

Cerberus

@tchrist Haha wtf.

RegDwighт

@Cerberus yeah I just built my very first one, Olivia, twelve minutes ago.

Cerberus

"Build."

RegDwighт

20:37

Well it does consist of four parts.

tchrist

@Cerberus barbiedeathcamp.com

Pickies.

RegDwighт

21:08

Oh, so we're sharing beautiful pictures...

I have one...

tchrist

Unpretty.

And gosh, don’t they look unhappy!

RegDwighт

That's the beauty of it.

This picture is beautiful in so many ways.

You can't stage this shit.

tchrist

Cross faces, crossed fingers.

@Reg Did you vote?

RegDwighт

Where? When?

tchrist

For that guy up there.

RegDwighт

21:12

You serious?

tchrist

No, it’s a setup.

RegDwighт

Ah. Hold on.

Yes! I voted for Putin!

tchrist

Yeah, and I voted for Obama. And look what good it got us.

Cerberus

@RegDwighт Lovely.

They both deserve to be sacked.

tchrist

I don’t think either of our nations does that.

RegDwighт

21:14

@tchrist it did get us one beautiful picture. Seldom have two votes achieved more.

Cerberus

And prosecuted for corruption.

tchrist

You mean for being politicians? How can you separate that out?

RegDwighт

@Cerberus Toute nation a le gouvernement qu'elle mérite.

Joseph de Maistre

Joseph-Marie, comte de Maistre ( 1 April 1753 – 26 February 1821) was a Savoyard philosopher, writer, lawyer, and diplomat. He defended hierarchical societies and a monarchical State in the period immediately following the French Revolution. De Maistre was a subject of the King of Piedmont-Sardinia, whom he served as member of the Savoy Senate (1787–1792), ambassador to Russia (1803–1817), and minister of state to the court in Turin (1817–1821). Maistre, a key figure of the Counter-Enlightenment, saw monarchy both as a divinely sanctioned institution and as the only stable form of gover...

tchrist

Sackcloth

Sackcloth (Hebrew שַׂק saḳ) is a term originally denoting a coarsely woven fabric, usually made of goat's hair. It later came to mean also a garment made from such cloth, which was chiefly worn as a token of mourning by the Israelites. It was furthermore a sign of submission (I Kings xx. 30 et seq.), and was occasionally worn by the Prophets. The Jewish Encyclopedia says the Old Testament gives no exact description of the garment, so its shape must be a matter of conjecture. According to Adolf Kamphausen, the saḳ was like a corn-bag with an opening for the head, and another for each a...

Look, Obama’s been sacked!

Cerberus

@RegDwighт Oui, je connais cette expression.

@tchrist Not all politicians accept money and industry jobs.

RegDwighт

21:16

Yeah, there are more politicians than good-paying jobs.

tchrist

Not all politicians accept money? I thought Nederland only had soft drugs.

RegDwighт

@tchrist a wise man once told me to never trust a people who put a mention of God on their money.

tchrist

“In God we trust: all others pay cash.”

RegDwighт

tchrist

mene

shekel

upharsin

The Romans put the divine Caesars on their money.

Why does Tristan always make me sad?

-1

A: Difference between "artifact" and "artefact"

However, the couple of online sources I checked suggested that the difference was merely spelling, and that both were usable for both definitions. That is the case. The artifact spelling (which shows up with a red line under it, on this computer) is American while the artefact spelling i...

I bet he’d do better if he changed his name from Tristan to Felix.

At least he’d be happier.

Cerberus

21:22

@tchrist We have the revolving doors problem (thought it's somewhat less bad), but politicians don't get money from lobbyists here.

tchrist

Whom do they get money from then?

RegDwighт

I am Bryan Cranston, AMA @Rob

Oh my. He looks so old in those proof pictures.

Cerberus

@tchrist The government.

And parties can get (very) modest donations.

But individuals aren't allowed at accept money, I believe.

Robusto

@RegDwighт Sweet!

> TheBryanCranston: Did your brother finally start watching the show or does he still have a vagina?

tchrist

@Robusto You can rent those, you know.

RegDwighт

21:31

> If you could do a whole new season for either Breaking Bad (a season 6) or Malcolm in the Middle (a season 8), which would you chose, and why?

Robusto

@tchrist Better to have the use of one than to have one, is how I like to put it.

@RegDwighт Ah, Reddit.

RegDwighт

Some funny shit on there, though.

Better than I expected.

And OMG I get the references.

Cerberus

Dutch political parties get 50 % of their money from (fixed) contributions from party members.

They also get substantial sums from the (government-paid) salaries of MPs.

tchrist

Perhaps if one’s country were the size of New York City, that might work out.

Cerberus

The larger the country, the more members you will have.

Robusto

21:35

@tchrist Yeah. And didn't have a Bible Belt.

tchrist

@Robusto It’s good to have a Bible Belt: shows exactly where to cut.

Cerberus

One party got € 15,000 through fundraising. The rest get less or nothing that way.

Parties also get money from donations, but the total is not very large. Any donation over € 4500 must be made public.

The government also subsidised parties, but most of that is indirectly, by giving them free advertising time on television and by financing youth organisations or party research institutes.

Election campaigns are or used to among the cheapest in the world.

But since 1998, parties are allowed to buy advertising time on national television, and campaigns have become more expensive since then.

parlement.com/id/vhnnmt7l6hu4/partijfinanciering

Total government subsidies for all parties combined are about 16 million yearly.

Still less than the monarchy.

RegDwighт

Echoes can reveal the shape of a room.

Wow, those researchers are so smart.

What will they research next? That people can use legs to walk?

Cerberus

At least their precisions a few mm.

(In a room with a very simple shape; but still.)

tchrist

@RegDwighт Batty.

RegDwighт

21:54

I'm off for today. Good night!

MετάEd

22:32

@Cerberus Right. That's pretty amazing.

@Cerberus Simple as in convex. Which is fairly simple, yes.

Cerberus

@MετάEd Also simple as in a smooth surface with no corners, probably.

MετάEd

They mapped "a university lecture room and a cathedral alcove".

Odds are they contended with corners.

Cerberus

Contended?

> The problem is that the company doesn't get into many specifics over how they achieve any of this, leaving it to internet forums like StackExchange and their users to try and figure it out.

> Of course, this previously little-heard-of forum and the questions it posed have now been splashed all over Reddit, Slashdot, Hacker News, and now here. All over a meritless DMCA notice for a forum half a year old.

techdirt.com/articles/20130424/10205222823/…

Odd.

@Shog9 Why did Stack Exchange comply with this DMCA request?

You removed that content.

47

A: How is CipherCloud doing homomorphic encryption?

I could not find any evidence pointing towards homomorphic encryption. What I could find were different combinations of deterministic and format preserving encryption. There is probably also a variant that preserves order, but I couldn't find any material depicting it. This post is based on mate...

> The EFF has already weighed in, stating that it's clear that use of the marketing material fell under Fair Use and that the defamation claim is laughably without merit. — techdirt.com/articles/20130424/10205222823/…

Techdirt (above) explains how the request is without merit.

KitFox

22:51

@tchrist really? After all the talk about Marvel superheroes and how DC is barely even allowed in my house?

tchrist

23:03

Hey, has anybody looked at our badges page lately?

Mitch

23:28

I just looked. Is there something different? Did it get new glasses?

MετάEd

@tchrist I haven't.

I don't remember it being this well organized.

Cerberus

Neither have I.

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