English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

RegDwighт

22:00

Oh.

Tom W

I probably don't want to try any harder than I already have at translating that.

RegDwighт

@Cerberus Too late!

So anyway. Wenn, yes.

Cerberus

"If he shot the writer, we must kill him."

RegDwighт

Aye.

Cerberus

Oh, really? No als?

RegDwighт

22:00

Als means "as he was about to".

Which makes like below zero sense.

Cerberus

@TomW You shouldn't be looking at my German, lest you learn wrong stuff!

Tom W

oh thank god for that. I had some association with 'rape' w.r.t 'schoss'. I'm not sure why

Cerberus

@RegDwighт Ahh I see.

Yes, I can see that.

Just like as.

RegDwighт

@TomW because Schoß is lap or womb.

Cerberus

Dutch schot v. schoot.

RegDwighт

22:02

Macht die Schoten dicht!

Und die Schotten auch!

Cerberus

Do the vowels sound different in German too, between shot and lap?

Ah, yes, Schot is Scot.

RegDwighт

Nov 17 '11 at 14:08, by RegDwight Ѭſ道

Cerberus

OMG.

Of all languages in the world, German sounds the most perverted when mixing in English words.

RegDwighт

@Cerberus and Schlot is the industry size chimney.

Cerberus

Really?

RegDwighт

22:03

Jetzt ist alles klar!

Cerberus

Schlot, a chimney?

Is that like...sloot?

slot = Schloss.

RegDwighт

Schlot

Schlot bezeichnet: * einen großen Schornstein * daraus ableitend: umgangssprachlich den "Schlotbaron", für einen neureichen, meist gewissenlosen Menschen; siehe: Baron * in der Geologie einen Aufstiegskanal von vulkanischen Produkten; siehe Schlot (Geologie) * in der Höhlenkunde einen vertikalen, nach oben führenden Gangteil; siehe Schlot (Höhlenkunde) * in Ostfriesland einen Wassergraben * einen Jazzclub in Berlin, siehe Kunstfabrik Schlot

Rauchen wie ein Schlot.

Cerberus

> in Ostfriesland einen Wassergraben

That's it!

A sloot.

RegDwighт

Not to confuse with a sleutel.

Cerberus

Indeed not.

So is the o long in Schlot?

RegDwighт

22:05

Aye.

Cerberus

As opposed to, say, Schlott?

OK.

RegDwighт

There's schlottern. To shiver.

Cerberus

Hmm.

Tom W

any connection?

RegDwighт

I think we should stop lest we find out that all words in all languages are six degrees from Kevin Bacon.

Cerberus

22:06

We don't have that, I'm afraid.

Tom W

no way; this is fun!

Cerberus

Nor does English, I think?

Tom W

spot the misuse of the semicolon

what does English have or not have?

Cerberus

@TomW It may be defensible?

@TomW A cognate of schlottern.

RegDwighт

Grimm say it's from MHD slottern, slotern.

woerterbuchnetz.de/DWB/?lemma=schlottern

Also sluttern, schluttern.

Cerberus

22:08

I can't think of any potential cognates.

Tom W

I don't think so

RegDwighт

And then there's schludern. To be careless, thoughtless.

Tom W

not fully understanding what you're asking for...

RegDwighт

Cognates are Nates with a cog.

Cerberus

A word in English that is from the same Proto-Indo-European root as schlottern.

RegDwighт

22:09

@Cerberus Slotterdijk.

Tom W

right, have the capacity to google. It seems not.

Cerberus

Cog- = "same"; nat- = "born".

RegDwighт

Hence, nacimiento.

Cerberus

> Mhd. slot[t]ern "wackeln, zittern" (entsprechend niederd. sluddern, niederl. slodderen) ist eine Intensivbildung zu gleichbed. mhd. sloten und gehört wie schleudern und lottern zu der unter schlummern dargestellten idg. Wurzel *[s]leu- "schlaff [herabhängend]".

Tom W

Although it might amuse you that the closest word that I can think of to 'chimney' is 'to chime' - for a bell, which does indeed reside inside a structure similar to a chimney

I don't have the faintest idea whether they're related

RegDwighт

22:11

@TomW chime is related to cymbal, not chimney.

Cerberus

Slodderen...okay, I see. That verb is not really in use, but a sloddervos (vos = fox) is someone who doesn't pick up after himself.

RegDwighт

Chimney is related to caminata and camera.

Cerberus

Hmm.

Tom W

Blast you English, for creating such a mess in your wake

Cerberus

So English slumber is related to schlottern (and Dutch sluimeren too).

RegDwighт

22:12

> late 13c., "furnace;" early 14c., "chimney stack of a fireplace;" late 14c., "fireplace in a residential space;" from Old French cheminee "fireplace; room with a fireplace; hearth; chimney stack" (12c., Modern French cheminée), from Late Latin (camera) caminata "fireplace; room with a fireplace," from Latin caminatus, adjective of caminus "furnace, forge; hearth, oven; flue," from Greek kaminos "furnace, oven, brick kiln."

Cerberus

@TomW All languages are a mess!

RegDwighт

Especially Esperanto.

Cerberus

@RegDwighт I had no idea, btw. Good to know.

RegDwighт

@Cerberus really? Cheminee is so obvious. Everything else follows.

Now chime and cymbal...

Tom W

I have heard that non-anglo people are eternally surprised that anglo (British, American, Aus/NZ) people learn so little about the structure and origin of their own language in school

Cerberus

22:13

@RegDwighт Ahhh from Greek ka(i)-ô "to burn", as in holocaust!

I'm not making this up!

RegDwighт

@TomW Yeah.

Tom W

I'm no exception to this

they didn't really do any

Cerberus

@RegDwighт The French is obvious, yes, but I have to say caminus was only dimly present in my minds.

Tom W

I lack the vocabulary to really debate this because it's what you're meant to learn in school, and we neglect it

Cerberus

@TomW I am surprised at how Anglo-Saxons always say they learn so little! Whether or not it is true in comparison, I cannot say.

RegDwighт

22:15

@TomW well then be informed that water, vodka, Undine, hydrant, whiskey, and wet are all the same word.

Cerberus

Yay!

Tom W

that's part of the reason we're so bad at other people's languages

we don't even understand our own

Cerberus

I had no idea about vodka and whiskey, and I would have had to check on unda and hydôr...

@TomW Hmm...but are you so bad?

RegDwighт

Oh, and also zoo, bio, and quick.

Cerberus

And how about the French?

@RegDwighт Quick, really?

RegDwighт

22:16

Not to mention everything with chl in it. All the same word.

Tom W

I have an infantile understanding of German and can say 'please', 'thank you' and 'beer' in about four others

RegDwighт

Oct 27 '12 at 13:44, by tchrist

Comm. Teut.: OE. cwicu, c(w)ucu and cwic, c(w)uc-, = OFris. quik, quek (mod.Fris. quick, queck), OS. quik (MDutch quic, Dutch kwik), OHG. quec, quecch- and chec, checch- (MHG. quec, queck- and kec, keck-, G. keck lively, pert, bold; also dial. queck, quick), ONor. kvik-r, kvikv- and kyk-r, kykv- (MSw. qvik, qvek, Sw. qvick; Da. kvik, also kvæg sb., ‘cattle’, and kvæg-, kvik- in combs. as kvæg- or kviksand):-OTeut. *kwikwo-z.
The origin of the second k is obscure; it is absent in the Gothic *qius (in pl. qiwai):-*kwiwo-z, from the common Aryan *gwī̆wo- which appears in Skr. jīvá, L. vīvus (f…

Tom W

I'm pretty good amongst my friends for the amount of language ability I retained

Cerberus

@RegDwighт I see that you are right about vivus/bios/quick, I only knew the first two were related. As to zôô, I didn't know that one either.

Tom W

it's definitely a middle-class pastime

Cerberus

22:18

@TomW Sehr gut!

What is middle class?

RegDwighт

You have to know in Dutchland they have no classes, only queens.

Tom W

if you haven't been to university and really tried hard to travel or engage with the rest of the world, there's basically zero chance you'll know any foreign languages at all

middle-class = people who aspire to professional occupations and assume they'll take some sort of higher education

HUGE GENERALISATION APPROACHING

Cerberus

@TomW Oh haha, so the upper classes don't go to university in your country?

sceptical look

Tom W

that was definitely not what I said

RegDwighт

Sceptical? Quick, I must get antisceptics.

Tom W

22:21

they know they'll go there, regardless of ability

RegDwighт

Money won't buy you etymology, though.

It's not like the languages that are taught here aren't taught backwards, either.

Everyone just recites the same stupid words and pointless rules.

Schools suck at teaching languages.

Mahnax

@MattЭллен Hm?

RegDwighт

I have learned more Finnish from Mahnax than I ever could at school. And I have learned absolutely no Finnish from Mahnax.

Cerberus

@TomW And they therefore don't study languages?

@Mahnax Hello, Finn!

Tom W

Well, we're a country of travellers - at least, the middle class people whose opinions are listened to are travellers , and wherever we go, people speak fantastic english and we - those who are capable of feeling shame - realise how they'll never speak [native language of people cooking their breakfast]

Mahnax

22:23

@Cerberus I see no Finn, only Finn/2.

But hello regardless!

Cerberus

@TomW Okay, but...most people here never learn to speak any language other than Dutch and English well.

@Mahnax Hmm I don't know how to respond to that, except by, "yes".

Tom W

that's 100% more than we do

Cerberus

In other words, we suck at French and German.

RegDwighт

@TomW well, but giving up before you started is the very attitude that prevents them from actually speaking that language.

Cerberus

Not to mention Chinese.

Mahnax

22:26

@Cerberus So do we, and one of those is a national language here.

Tom W

oh man

Cerberus

@Mahnax Haha, indeed.

RegDwighт

@Cerberus most people never learn anything anywhere.

Tom W

Chinese. I've read as much as I understand - which isn't much - and realise that my brain needs re-wiring

RegDwighт

That's by design.

Cerberus

22:27

@RegDwighт And yet they manage to breathe ogygen!

RegDwighт

@Cerberus the only thing they never had to learn!

Cerberus

@TomW I've read zero and I understand zero, so you win! Yay!

@RegDwighт But they did.

Tom W

I had a chinese housemate. He ~~spoke~~ understood a lot more english than he could speak

Cerberus

They didn't know how to before they were born.

RegDwighт

That's the right approach.

Cerberus

22:28

Haha.

RegDwighт

Dive in and go ahead, mistakes and all.

Tom W

he only let on that he was deputy director of the chinese meteorological service when he gave me his business card the day he left

I was surprised they didn't arrange better accomodation. This place is a dump

Cerberus

Odd.

He never told you what he did?

Tom W

well, i knew he was a scientist and that he took classes at the metereological institute

RegDwighт

@Cerberus to be fair, I never told you what I do, either.

Hippos notwithstanding.

But I must be calling it a day. Must read more of Ms LeGuin's.

Still no real progress.

Cerberus

22:33

@RegDwighт But we don't share a kitchen.

Good night!

RegDwighт

@Cerberus the transcript tells otherwise.

In fact I am responsible for your favorite food now.

So.

Cerberus

Transports and replicators don't count.

Tom W

@Cerberus he was very insistent that one day we ought to come and see the Shanghai expo. I think he was from there

Cerberus

@RegDwighт You could be a program inside a microwave, for all I know.

@TomW Ah OK. Was he nice to live with?

RegDwighт

@Cerberus and? That doesn't refute my point, it strengthens it.

But I'm not here.

Ouvert et haut !

Cerberus

22:35

@RegDwighт I don't see you on the screen of my microwave?

RegDwighт

Tom should drop by some other time.

Cerberus

waves at screen, knocks

RegDwighт

@Cerberus go visit an ornithologist about that.

Cerberus

Yes, make him with your magical moderating powers.

Tom W

@Cerberus very pleasant. Language barrier was the main issue. I think he understood everything we said but either wasn't able or wasn't confident enough to reply in any detail

Cerberus

22:36

@RegDwighт You're not a bird any more!

RegDwighт

@Cerberus Right. I will just superping him twice a day.

Cerberus

Fun!

RegDwighт

¡Abierto y alto!

Cerberus

@TomW OK cool. I imagine it must be an odd experience, if pleasant, to live with someone from an alien culture.

Tom W

He watched loads of news

and found it fascinating that I cooked a lot of food he recognised as obviously chinese-style

Cerberus

22:41

Haha, of course.

He though you would only cook potatoes with buffalo steaks and peppers?

Tom W

we just about managed to discuss the political status of Hong Kong and how a lot of people from there fled in the 90s, and I think we understood one another, although it was hard to tell

Cerberus

Hmm.

How could he possibly attend university?

Tom W

Hm?

Cerberus

I believe we have lots of Chinese students at the university of Leiden, and they do poorly.

Partly because their English is so bad.

Tom W

This guy was in his early 40s

Cerberus

22:44

Ah.

But...

You said he was taking classes?

Tom W

When I said he 'took' classes

I think he was leading them

Cerberus

Oh, I see.

Even harder to imagine.

Tom W

He wrote us a goodbye letter as well - perfect english

Cerberus

1999 storm "Anatol" in Germany, is known as the "Decemberorkanen" or "Adam" in Denmark and as "Carola" in Sweden.
2011 storm "Dagmar" in Norway and Sweden is known as "Patrick" in Germany and "Tapani" in Finland.

An alternative Scottish naming system arose in 2011 via social media/twitter which resulted in the humourous naming of Hurricane Bawbag[9][10][11] and Hurricane Fannybaws.

@TomW Oh! Interesting.

Perhaps he had it checked by someone...

Tom W

so i think he knew a lot more than was immediately obvious

Cerberus

22:49

But if he could barely talk to you, how could he give a lecture?

Oh, well.

Apparently, he did.

Tom W

I'm sure if you have time to research your subject and think, you have more of a chance to say what you mean

If I were asked a simple question in - say - italian - I'd hear babble - but might be able to reply if I saw it written down

Cerberus

Heh.

Sure, writing is easier if that's how you learned it.

Tom W

I had a housemate who spoke fluent italian because her mother was, and spoke not a great deal of english - but she spoke it with a standard english accent, which just sounded wrong

i.e. there was just enough flair in it to sound grammatically correct, but no more

she also spoke quite a lot of french,and didn't manage the accent for that either

Cerberus

@TomW So you mean her grammar and idiom sounded a bit foreign, while her accent sounded almost native?

And by standard English, you mean RP?

Wait, it is English, right?

Tom W

Yep, she was from greater london. And speaking italian she still sounded like she was from greater london, but saying words I didn't recognise

she could argue with her mother about stuff i assumed was quite complex

Cerberus

23:09

Ah OK.

That is funny indeed.

It's also interesting how some people acquire a great accent in a fairly short time, while others retain a heavy accent even after 10 years of permanent immersion in the target accent.

Tom W

I do my best to adopt the local pronunciation as best I can

being noob, that doesn't go very far

Cerberus

It's just a matter of practice. And never thing you're "done" learning to pronounce a certain word, because no doubt it still sounds weird to a native speaker.

Or maybe not.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…