English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Robusto

00:00

Here's an interesting podcats I listened to today. I went for a half-hour walk, decided to make it an hour, then I went home and sat on the couch, listening, until it was finished.

4

KitFox

> Could widespread child abuse and bad parenting in earlier eras explain some of history's brutality?

I often wonder the same thing.

I don't do podcasts. Maybe I should.

My brother keeps trying to turn me on to the Skeptics Guide to the Universe.

I was hoping the early edition would have good news, but my husband said when he made his report that the cops were saying they had recovered a lot of stuff, but it was unclear how much might be relevant.

I feel very preoccupied by it.

Joseph Weissman

I've tried it a bit with a local working group. It can be interesting.

I've found it even more interesting to furtively introduce recording-machines into situations.

Or merely give the impression you are turning it off with a convincing gesture.

Depends on what exactly you're trying to capture.

--At any rate, sometimes it can be difficult to get things started, and the machine can feel intimidating; or on the other hand it can overcode/overdetermine things.

Robusto

00:16

Gotta go. later.

Joseph Weissman

@KitFox I would think about Ricky Gervais anyway; really interesting energy that feels totally natural.

Of course I don't know exactly what you're doing or how many voices you might be trying to involve. Just some thoughts/immediate reactions :)

Good luck with whatever you might end up creating!

(Another quick thought might be that recorded materials potentially have a testamentary and potentially therapeutic value independent of their broadcast-ability.)

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

01:38

@KitFox I started with these.

Cerberus

03:15

@Robusto It's good to be aware of how decisions like bombing cities can be made.

And the use of aircraft no doubt changed warfare a lot, although artillery and chemical weapons also resulted in quick, huge massacres (as in 40,000 casualties) in the first world war.

But his statement that civilians were not killed in large numbers in European wars between the Renaissance and the second world war is not entirely true.

My home town, for example, was burned to the ground and massacred by the Spaniards in 1600. It wasn't a huge city, but still.

I also believe the religious wars depopulated various regions in Germany between 1618 ands 1648. No doubt some towns or cities were massacred.

And what did the English do in Ireland?

The Russians in Poland?

I wouldn't be surprised if they burned and pillages cities too.

It could be argued that fewer civilians were massacred between 1648 and 1939 than in other periods mainly because there weren't as many wars that took place in or near cities.

But, yes, WW2 was really something different, with such a huge war between such huge powers and so many cities bombed to the ground.

As to Mediaeval wars, I think many were perhaps not so extremely bloody.

Cities were massacred, yes, but perhaps not that often.

It's hard to compare, if only because everybody lived in the countryside.

Cerberus

03:42

Another observation: the speaker suggests that perhaps chemical weapons weren't used at all in WW2 because people had seen how devastating they were in WW1 (which they hadn't seen about air bombings).

But it could also be that deploying chemical weapons is just very difficult, and they're less effective when you're already losing the war.

I don't know.

Cerberus

04:48

Bombs that were dropped on London, most probably in September and October 1940.

bombsight.org/#

Noah

05:53

Hello

@Cerberus

need to revise this: Once enabled, it becomes available across the whole OS.

ali

07:32

hi

anybody there

Noah

08:40

Yeah

I am here. @ali

Johan Larsson

09:55

@RegDwighт yeah typo, nothing new.

Robusto

10:30

@Cerberus Yes, that is one point I took issue with as well. I think he was glossing over an in-depth analysis of that point because, well, he already had 2.5 hours of material and you can't explore every branch. He also neglects to mention the wholesale slaughter visited on civilians in Europe from the Vandals through the Vikings, the various religious atrocities (the Albigensian Crusade) and so on. But his point about how the mass-murder of civilians became "accepted" in modern warfare stands.

TemporaryNickName

10:51

today I had a problem with my program so I showed my laptop to my professor and he saw my root user name "JasonOwnzBiatch"

worst part is I laughed at his face because of the name

RegDwighт

0

Q: articles in English

Mostly it is more or less clear to me how to use them, but when it comes to a certain sentence I start to cast doubt on my understanding of grammar. Could anyone please consider several cases of using articles? In each given case I am trying to explain how I see it, any corrections or answers ar...

grammar

I don't want to edit this. I cannot. Any volunteers?

Matt Эллен

11:17

I will give it a shot

Jez

►

hahahahahaha this episode is so freaking creepy

Mitch

@KitFox I've gotten my science news from SGU. They're informal but not stupid. I have q subscription to Scientific American but either I don't have the right time to read it, or it is disappointing/too Discovery magazine/too polemical.

Amaan Cheval

11:36

@Jez Hahaha wow

Robusto

11:52

@RegDwighт I would simply change the title to "How can I speak English with nuance and precision? No, really."

KitFox

12:20

Good morning.

Robusto

Good? It's Monday. How is that good?

KitFox

It's raining.

Matt Эллен

hullo

KitFox

Hi Matthew. How was the wedding?

Matt Эллен

excellent :)

I now have a sister (in law)

KitFox

12:24

:D

Glad to hear it.

Matt Эллен

Apparently I do need to check my emails more often

KitFox

Did I overflow it?

Matt Эллен

last monday I was emailed about being the compare between speeches, but I didn't know

so I had to wing it

it all worked out fine

KitFox

Wow. That must have felt pretty good.

RegDwighт

0

Q: Why can't I understand even a word of the song In The Bleak Winter?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0aL9rKJPr4 It is incomprehensible to me. I keep losing track of the song even with lyrics.

pronunciation accent

Matt Эллен

12:26

@KitFox it did :) also somewhat nervewracking

KitFox

@MattЭллен The thrilling part what makes it feel so good when you're done.

@RegDwighт How about "I don't know"?

RegDwighт

@KitFox how about "we should be asking you"?

KitFox

That's far too nice.

I would hate to imply that I care.

Matt Эллен

maybe direct them to Cognitive Sciences

RegDwighт

I understand like 50%. Perhaps 40. Then again I'm also focusing on typing here.

With the lyrics, I bet I'd understand 100%. At least.

KitFox

12:30

With the lyrics, I got the first verse, no problem.

RegDwighт

All this church music is notorious for not being discernible. Opera, too.

KitFox

I had a hard time without them, but I'm out of practice wrt choral singing style.

RegDwighт

Not to mention Internet Explorer!

KitFox

HaHA!

The focus is on proper shapes, not proper pronunciation.

Πάρτη Κοχλί

Is anyone a headphone expert here?

KitFox

12:31

In what sense?

RegDwighт

@MattЭллен nah, you can't possibly know that. The answer to the question as stated could be "because you have a banana in your ear".

I'm not sure Cognitive Sciences deal with bananas. On a second thought...

Matt Эллен

in a general way: aural cognition can be impaired by many things including blockages to the entry of the ear canal. ;)

RegDwighт

That's far too general. This question is specifically about one person. You're not helping.

Matt Эллен

hmmm

RegDwighт

Now, "try switching it off and on again", that would be useful advice. Or "try jQuery".

KitFox

12:54

@RegDwighт They don't werked. Pls halps.

I am rolling with it. Just rolling with it. No sense in even being irritated at the lack of organization.

breathes deeply, finds her zen

A few more months and I will we out of here.

Matt Эллен

*wee
Propelled out by the force of your urination?

RegDwighт

Rolling in the deep?

KitFox

Rolling in the deep.

@MattЭллен Whee, not whiz.

;-)

In the grey, grey ghost that I call home.

The project lead wanted me to go find a corner in the cafeteria and set up to do my presentation.

I told him I would convert it to handouts if he insisted on doing it there.

Matt Эллен

you selling snake oil?

KitFox

No, trying to get information from users.

Much harder than selling snake oil.

Matt Эллен

13:08

oh! the focus group?

KitFox

Yeah.

RegDwighт

You're still not done with that?

KitFox

There will only be 2 or 3 people for it, which suits me fine.

I thought we should feed them.

RegDwighт

Haha. That is quite focused, but a group?

KitFox

@RegDwighт I haven't done it yet. I was preparing last week.

And we're calling it a "user discussion" instead.

RegDwighт

13:09

Why don't you just interview yourself. You'd provide much more insight.

Matt Эллен

you could call it "The first anual user picnic"

people would be much more enthusiastic

KitFox

What I would like is to talk to the one teacher leader that I interact with most frequently, without my stupid project lead interfering.

RegDwighт

@MattЭллен you misspelled anal.

KitFox

@MattЭллен About an anal picnic? I don't think so.

giggles

Matt Эллен

har har :D

RegDwighт

13:11

Zwei Idioten, ein Gedanke.

Matt Эллен

well, too many Ns spoil the broth

RegDwighт

Too many bros before hos.

TemporaryNickName

guys, what would you think about me when you saw my root user name "JasonOwnzBiatch" while you were trying to help me out with a problem as a proffessor?

RegDwighт

I would think you were a professor at the Naughty America University.

KitFox

I would think you were a college student.

RegDwighт

13:12

Jinx.

KitFox

!!/tell Reg jinx

Matt Эллен

@KitFox yup

Caprica Six

@KitFox Command coke does not exist. Did you mean: joke

KitFox

Damn.

Caprica Six

@Reg us.coca-cola.com

RegDwighт

13:12

The bot is wrong.

TemporaryNickName

pheww, so nothing serious then

RegDwighт

9

Q: How can I practice pronouncing "Coke" so it is not mistaken for another word?

I always fear my conversation sounds like this: — What would you like to drink, sir? — I will take some cock, thanks. — ROFL. Any tips on how to pronounce Coke so it is not mistaken for anything? :)

pronunciation diphthongs

KitFox

@TemporaryNickName Depends on whether you are concerned about people thinking of you as a grown up.

RegDwighт

@TemporaryNickName yeah, nobody would take you seriously. For the rest of your life.

Damn, jinx again.

TemporaryNickName

FML

KitFox

13:13

But I wouldn't worry about it. You are a college student, right?

TemporaryNickName

yeah

why?

KitFox

So nobody will think of you as a grown up anyway.

I mean, except for other college students.

And kids younger than you.

TemporaryNickName

@KitFox yeah I know

RegDwighт

The solution is so obvious. Just buy a biatch. Then you'd actually own one.

KitFox

Haha. There is really nothing to worry about.

TemporaryNickName

13:16

no ownz means I can physically harm biatch (cowards)

Amaan Cheval

@KitFox What's the big deal in people thinking of others as "grown ups"?

KitFox

@AmaanCheval You'll understand when you are older.

Amaan Cheval

Ah. That.

RegDwighт

Apr 5 at 19:37, by RegDwighт

Amaan Cheval

Well done.

RegDwighт

13:16

I will sell you this biatch for 2000 dollars.

KitFox

Bulldog?

RegDwighт

Yeah I guess.

TemporaryNickName

lol

KitFox

It's kind of freaking me out.

Matt Эллен

baby boar?

RegDwighт

13:17

No, I was actually making that fox.

This is a by-product of LEGO experiments.

KitFox

Pointy tail and pointy nose has got to be pretty impossible.

Not to mention the crafty, feminine features.

RegDwighт

Pointy is not the issue. Orange is.

KitFox

So make a brown one.

Amaan Cheval

@TemporaryNickName You're weird.

KitFox

Because we all know how easy that is. waves magic wand

RegDwighт

13:19

@KitFox this is LEGO. There are even less brown parts than orange.

KitFox

Y must u b8 me so?

RegDwighт

Beight?

KitFox

Bait.

RegDwighт

Anyway, I was going to listen to that podcats.

KitFox

kthxbai

RegDwighт

13:20

It's a frigging two and a half hours.

Matt Эллен

miss you kiss you

RegDwighт

Rob sure listens to a lot of shit.

KitFox

Yeah. It's like, how does he have time to chat all day?

RegDwighт

He's chatting on autopilot.

Like you couldn't tell.

!!/define robusto

Caprica Six

@RegDwighт robusto strong, robust, vigorous, sturdy

TemporaryNickName

13:24

!!/hang e

Caprica Six

  +---+
  |   |
  |
  |
  |
__+__
e
-e--e-----

KitFox

!!/learn randomelu 'http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/$rand(1,25000)'

Caprica Six

@KitFox Command randomelu learned

KitFox

@TemporaryNickName Take it to the other room please.

TemporaryNickName

yeah soz

KitFox

13:25

!!/randomelu

Caprica Six

@KitFox english.stackexchange.com/questions/18314

Amaan Cheval

Nice

KitFox

I still wish I could drop the pingback.

So it would one box.

TemporaryNickName

Guys, today I was in a classroom to use a computer and some Asian dude randomly showed up and said "Whatsup niggahs" to his friends. Do you think he was being a racist?

KitFox

No.

Amaan Cheval

13:28

@KitFox Yeah, I've tried to talk Zirak into using message IDs for pings instead of names when the message is single line, like it does with the mustache command

KitFox

Yeah. He said he might do it.

It's a fun toy.

Fun might be overstating it.

Matt Эллен

It's a toy

KitFox

It's an elaborate ruse.

Having a paper handout feels so 20th century.

Matt Эллен

13:48

supply them all with Google glass from the future

then chip the attendees with GPS trackers so they can't go missing

KitFox

14:06

hee hee hee

So he's changed the plan again and now I'm back to adding stuff to the presentation.

Not that we will get that far, because I think we'll have about a half hour anyway.

Matt Эллен

it's good to be prepared just in case

KitFox

gives @Matt a sharp look

Matt Эллен

no? is that the wrong thing to say

I'll blame it on the tiredness

KitFox

You always say the right thing. You're British.

Matt Эллен

:D

KitFox

14:12

Oh, new challenge. My uh. Brother-in-law's girlfriend just emailed me that she has a new diet.

Looks like she can't eat anything.

Matt Эллен

oh, that sort of challenge.

so you'll try to make a stew with nothing in it?

KitFox

rubs hands together

Exciting, eh?

Oh right, but I have to finish this presentation in 15 minutes. I better do that first.

Matt Эллен

pretends to be @Mahnax oh yes!

KitFox

Curry would probably work.

Looks like no beans, no grains, no garlic (!), no onions, no dairy, no fruit, no gluten.

Also, several vegetables are out.

Hmm.

Gah. Presentation!

Matt Эллен

is this diet directed by a doctor?

KitFox

14:26

I don't know.

She's got intestinal issues, but she might be the type to follow popular trends.

So she might not.

FODMAP

FODMAPs are short chain carbohydrates and monosaccharides which are poorly absorbed in the small intestine, including fructans, galactans, fructose and polyols. The term is an acronym, deriving from "Fermentable, Oligo-, Di-, Mono-saccharides and Polyols". The restriction of FODMAPs from the diet has been found to have a beneficial effect for sufferers of irritable bowel syndrome and other functional gut disorders. The low FODMAP diet was developed at Monash University in Melbourne. FODMAP absorption Poor absorption of most FODMAP carbohydrates is common to everyone. Any FODMAPs that are ...

This seems excessive to me.

But I like a challenge.

Matt Эллен

it certainly is a challenge

> Sources of galactans

Galactus isn't listed. I'm not sure of the veracity of this article

KitFox

Haha. Meeting time. bbl

Matt Эллен

Have fun!

MετάEd

14:49

@KitFox Brutality is part of human nature.

KitFox

15:15

The only bad thing about free lunch is waiting for lunchtime.

@MετάEd I don't agree with that statement.

Damn, of course I can't do curry without garlic and onion. Hmm.

Matt Эллен

is she off all types of onion? maybe you could use shalots or chives?

KitFox

I think all types.

This is definitely going to be interesting.

I wonder how she feels about mustard.

Mustard and balsamic vinegar and ginger maybe.

Over...not tofu. Not broccoli.

Maybe summer squash and sweet potatoes and eggplant.

Roasted.

I bet I could do lentils tarka.

Cerberus

@Robusto Right, but I was under the impression that he was only talking about the early-modern period and the 19th century (ca. 1500–1800) when he said that Europe was less cruel against civilians. And so even that is dubious. But it is a minor point; what is interesting and surprising is how this became "acceptable" in such a short period of time leading up to WW2.

KitFox

Oh, I think that has garlic.

Matt Эллен

lentils are pulses, no?

Cerberus

15:25

Hello!

KitFox

Frig.

Cerberus

How was the wedding?

Johan Larsson

hej

Matt Эллен

Hello!

Cerberus

Hee.

MετάEd

15:25

@KitFox Humans have an enormous capacity for helpfulness and empathy, beginning at an early age. But they also have the capacity to devalue anything to the point that its suffering does not matter. And once you have devalued something (or someone), brutality ensues.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus Super :D, thanks for asking.

Cerberus

Cool.

Were there any bouquets thrown? Or merely buckets?

Matt Эллен

:D My brother needed a bucket at the end of the night! I'm not sure if my sister in law threw her bouquet

Cerberus

Oh, dear.

Matt Эллен

yeah, but it's all good fun

Cerberus

15:27

I suppose it's very British!

Matt Эллен

we were meant to be having lunch together yesterday, but they were both too off colour

@Cerberus quite

Cerberus

Haha.

Amaan Cheval

@MετάEd That's in interesting view

Cerberus

I'm not sure what Hyacinth would have said...

Matt Эллен

"oh, Onslow!"

or something like that

MετάEd

15:28

@AmaanCheval I think it's backed up by scientific studies of humans (as well as other primates) and several thousand years of historical record.

Cerberus

Haha yes.

KitFox

@MετάEd Seems like you could still attribute it to poor parenting.

Especially since no parent loves her children as much as I love mine.

Cerberus

Of course.

@MετάEd What's interesting how different cultures define which people are still "one of us".

And to what extent people really lived up to these norms.

One of the few good things about Christianity is its attempt to greatly enlarge the inner circle, at least in theory.

I sometimes wonder what the effect was in practice.

KitFox

They killed a lot of people like me.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus fracturing the religion into lots of sub groups that have their own special ideas

Cerberus

15:35

@KitFox Yes, it certainly didn't reduce killing. But it may have increasing helpfulness towards strangers / the poor / the weak. Or not.

@MattЭллен That's always a problem with stricter religions.

But the same values of helping the weak and helping strangers were still preached in (nearly?) all sub-groups.

KitFox

Right. Be charitable or be punished.

Matt Эллен

yes

KitFox

So just make sure you're cruel when no one is looking.

Or have a good reason why that particular person doesn't count.

Cerberus

Then again, even though this is emphasised less in some other cultures, hospitality and charity and helping strangers were far from new.

@KitFox What would our world have been like if we (our ancestors) had all worshipped Roman and Germanic gods?

There will always be indifference and cruelty.

But.

KitFox

Maybe. Maybe not.

Gah, stupid dietary restrictions. This recipe has stuff that I'm pretty sure is not fodmaps-friendly, but it says it's OK for that diet.

Matt Эллен

15:44

I blame God for creating people who could have dietary issues. We're meant to be omnivores.

MετάEd

@KitFox I think you can teach people (starting at a young age) to devalue nothing: that every creature is valuable and precious. (See Jainism for an example.) Gandhi used to say that this was the only hope for humanity, and that it would be hard and have to start early in life, precisely because it is unnatural.

KitFox

I don't think people are innately cruel. When I devalue human beings, I usually just ignore them.

I don't feel the urge to kill them.

MετάEd

@KitFox That's a sample size of one. I see your devaluation and raise you the holocaust.

KitFox

That's a sample size of one as well, and he was treated poorly as a child.

Matt Эллен

and was a painter

Cerberus

15:47

@MετάEd Even ticks?

KitFox

Yes.

Cerberus

> Britse topmannen: vertrek uit EU kost Groot-Brittannië ruim honderd miljard

British CEOs: leaving the EU would cost Great-Britain € 100 billion.

Matt Эллен

would cost, or are we definitely leaving?

MετάEd

@Cerberus I didn't say "should". I said "can". So yes, you "can" teach people that ticks are valuable and precious. Again, see Jainism.

Matt Эллен

oh

KitFox

15:48

There are billions of people on the Earth, and only tiny fraction of them are actually brutal.

Cerberus

Would, thankfully.

Matt Эллен

Google translate left out would

Cerberus

@MετάEd So does Jainism do so?

@MattЭллен Ahh I see. Funny.

MετάEd

@KitFox About a fourth of them, though, want strong, brutal leadership. The authoritarian followers.

KitFox

So we'll kill all of those, then we're fine.

Sunshine and rainbows will follow.

Matt Эллен

15:49

rimshot

Cerberus

@KitFox A tiny fraction actually are brutal, because society is designed to punish brutality and foster kindness. The fraction increases as society collapses.

MετάEd

@Cerberus "Jains make considerable efforts in everyday life not to injure plants any more than necessary. Although they admit that plants must be destroyed for the sake of food, they accept such violence only inasmuch as it is indispensable for human survival, and there are special instructions for minimizing violence against plants."

Jainism

Jainism (pronounced ), traditionally known as Jaina dharma, is an Indian religion that prescribes a path of non-violence towards all living beings and emphasises spiritual independence and equality between all forms of life. Practitioners believe that non-violence and self-control are the means by which they can obtain liberation from the cycle of reincarnations. Currently, Jainism is divided into two major sects; Digambara and Śvētāmbara. Jainism is one of the oldest religions of the world, identified with the Śramaṇa tradition of ancient India and connected by some to the Indus Valle...

Cerberus

I don't like damaging plants either if there is no real reason to.

But how about weeds in your border?

KitFox

@Cerberus I don't agree with that statement either.

Matt Эллен

I love kicking the heads off dandelions

KitFox

15:51

Stupid dandelions.

Matt Эллен

yeah. they had it coming

Cerberus

@KitFox Why not?

@MattЭллен !

KitFox

@Cerberus Brutal people are more powerful than non-brutal people. Kind people make easy targets.

MετάEd

@Cerberus Perfect example of what I'm talking about. When you identify some plants as weeds you have devalued them.

Matt Эллен

if you get it just right, it will fly for miles

Cerberus

15:52

@KitFox True.

@MετάEd Absolutely. So Jainism wouldn't weed out undesirable plants?

KitFox

Will nobody think of the children?

Robusto

@Cerberus What hits home from all this is that human beings have a nearly infinite capacity to arrive at worst outcomes from seemingly logical, well intentioned premises. And that our lust to make war supersedes rational discourse.

Matt Эллен

Kicking the heads off children? I don't think that's a good idea

MετάEd

@Cerberus I'm no expert on Jainism. The article has some information on that though.

@MattЭллен It's only a difference of degree.

Cerberus

What I really, really dislike is damaging plants or animals or anything beautiful or complex for no good reason. This includes throwing away leftovers. If you have some sort of reason, then I am ready to devalue, say, noisome insects.

MετάEd

15:55

@Cerberus Right. And using exactly the same logic you can devalue noisome people.

KitFox

My rationale for smashing mosquitoes is "because I can." Same with eating animal flesh.

But anyway, devaluing doesn't necessarily lead to cruel behavior.

Matt Эллен

@MετάEd they're not even the same kingdom

MετάEd

@KitFox I agree. It takes devaluation plus a little fear or inconvenience.

@MattЭллен Why should that matter?

Cerberus

@Robusto Yes. But could it also be that the Industrial Revolution gave rise to a sort of utilitarianism where a goal can justify any means? I.e. that this way of thinking was fairly new for civilised people? I think we have in a way returned to "even the best goal doesn't justify all means" after WW2. Let's hope it will hold for a couple of centuries.

MετάEd

@MattЭллен "They're not even the same color."

Matt Эллен

15:57

@MετάEd because it does matter. it's always mattered.

MετάEd

@MattЭллен "They're not even the same religion."

Matt Эллен

genetics affects who we are likely to help and hinder

Cerberus

@MετάEd Yes, absolutely. But most people are far more reluctant to devalue stuff that's higher on the ladder.

Matt Эллен

we are more likely to help a human over a fly

Cerberus

Certainly.

MετάEd

15:58

@Cerberus Right, or more closely related or friendlier. We will devalue a dog but the circumstances in which we will do so are different than for a tick.

KitFox

A cat is a rat is a dog is a child.

Matt Эллен

no

Cerberus

@MετάEd Yes.

KitFox

Lunch and presentation. bbl!

Matt Эллен

CU

Cerberus

15:59

Bye.

MετάEd

@KitFox It's like those circular species.

KitFox

@MattЭллен You can take it up with PETA.

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…