Would you fall for this?

The grammar and punctuation is beyond atrocious.

And asking people to install Java? Yeah, right!

@Cerberus ...what does it actually do?

@WendiKidd Hi!

It robs you of your bitcoins.

arstechnica.com/security/2013/04/…

@Cerberus That is so depressing -.- Also hi! : D

People want your money...such is life!

howdy!

@Mahnax My site's logo clicks back to home. In IE and IE only, there's a big blue linky box around it.

How I remove?

Or anyone, really.

Never you mind! border = "0"

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I am considering sending information about the way Google forces Cyanogenmod to not protect user's privacy to the European Commission or the European Parliament for their anti-trust case.

That is, Microsoft and some other evil powers have filed a complain with the EC about Android.

The complaint is largely unreasonable, but Google's nasty ways of forcing its data-mining onto people should become known.

> Google's competitors complain about the search giant's "predatory distribution of Android at below cost." Apparently, Fairsearch believes that it's "predatory" for a company to gain market share by giving its software away for free.

This is of course true, but in this case the benefit of consumers trumps the anti-competitive nature of the free OS.

Consumers and society should come first. Always.

> Competition laws are supposed to benefit consumers, not a company's competitors. It's easy to see how Microsoft and Nokia might have been harmed by Google's decision to price its mobile operating system at zero. But there's no reason to think the strategy is harmful to consumers. To the contrary

arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/04/…

Oh, and:

Looks like Prof. Lawler doesn't like people using the word tense loosely. Rather prescriptivist of him, IYAM.

@Cerberus Please, let us not have grand-mal seizure-inducing graphics in chat.

Now I must go, so that I don't have to have that in my face. Bye.

Snake.

@Robusto Yeah, he's always on some crusade...

@Cerberus damn.

Heh.

Heh.

Jokes can be hard to miss or to get!

Sorry.

Sorry?

@Cerberus Ourobouros.

To whom?

To youm.

@Robusto Indeed.

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 No need.

Take heed.

Godspeed.

I wonder whether that snake is real.

Or Jörmungandr.

Oh, really?

> The last meeting between the serpent and Thor is predicted to occur at Ragnarök, when Jörmungandr will come out of the ocean and poison the sky.[7] Thor will kill Jörmungandr and then walk nine paces before falling dead, having been poisoned by the serpent's venom.

Hmm.

No one says what happens to Sleipnir.

And will it not eat itself?

Sleipnir has legs the way you have heads.

Yeah.

He says "The teeth are grown up" is not grammatical. I disagree.

Only people can be grown up.

Dogs and horses can as well.

There is no sharp boundary between syntax and semantics, so you could argue from either position.

Yeah OK.

I figured I'd hit him with a Chomsky bolus, see if that knocked him off his high horse.

Hehe.

Angry old man. shrugs

Nothing infuriates a linguist like a Chomsky reference.

Haha.

This started only recently.

It's been on a while.

I thought they used to worship him.

@Cerberus I may not be crazy about Google's data mining, although it has provided me lots of benefits so far at seemingly little harm. But I still wonder about the supposed harm to customers where Google gives away the source code to an entire phone operating system, but requires that users of the Market abide by a few rules.

It seems as if you're arguing that if they hadn't given away Android, then there wouldn't be any issue here.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 On the whole, it is still a benefit, certainly.

As to Android being free, the accusation is that it is being used to dominate the market through dump prices, to drive out competitors. That is exactly what's happening, but I think it is so good for customers that it should be allowed.

I don't think there is any doubt that giving away software should be allowed.

Even though it is hugely anti-competitive.

@Cerberus Except that I dont' think it is free. I'm pretty sure Google makes the major phone vendors pay to get the "Android" branding and the Market access.

You think?

Yes, I could have sworn I read about that. They have complicated partnerships

Either way, if they're still giving the core away for free...

e.g. the early-access to the source that is being done for major vendors now, etc.

@Cerberus Sure but that has nothing to do with the US market or the EU market.

The "free" Android isn't connected to Google anyway.

But to me the price of Android is unrelated to the fact that Google is forcing companies to put the Play Store prominently somewhere on the phone if they want to be able to use it at all. I don't really think it is a problem, but ideally that wouldn't happen.

Now, maybe Google doesn't charge per-device license fees or whatever. Who knows.

@Cerberus No. They are not doing that.

Consider the Kindle.

It runs Android

only, with no gapps

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, they are giving it away...

It has its own app store

I said the Play Store.

@Cerberus But the "free" Android doesn't have gapps.

Yes. But it is still dumping.

Vendors WANT the Play store.

I just don't think dumping is always wrong.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 They may only want Gmail...or they may want to put the Play Store in a less prominent place.

I don't think it's "dumping".

I suppose it depends on one's definition.

@Cerberus Have you unboxed a Galaxy S III lately? They totally deemphasize the play store.

Where is it?

I must have missed your package.

Are you one of the Nigerian princes telling me there is a package waiting for me, if I will just send them my ID?

The point is: Android (the brand, including Google Play) is a desirable brand. Vendors who want to use that branding (Android Logo, Google apps installed, etc) have to follow certain rules. I am pretty sure they have to pay. I don't know all the rules. Anyone who just wants to run Linux on their phone with a java-like user-space can get AOSP and run/modify it.

@Cerberus I thought your dad had one?

I seem to remember they didn't need to pay.

Either way, they don't need to pay if they don't use Gapps.

Evening.

He does.

@Cerberus I am pretty sure they have to pay something, but maybe not a per-device royalty.

'ning to you too.

@Cerberus right. But if they don't use gapps, they can't call it android, and then Google also gets nothing from the deal. No google account on the phone, no google login, no google data-mining, etc, etc.

I actually don't care about whether Google gives away Android for free.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes.

So again, I'm not sure how it's an anti-trust situation for a company to open a store, then say "your store software must meet this level of compliance to enter".

@Mahnax hello!

Can users download Google Maps and Gmail on a non-Gapps Android device?

@Mahnax evening

@Cerberus I don't think so

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Anything a company does can in theory become relevant for anti-trust and consumer-protection agencies.

BRB

@Cerberus Yes but it has to be, at least in my understanding, a matter of monopoly. Google does not try to enforce a monopoly on app stores or even android OS forks.

Unlike when Microsoft was making deals to keep netscape off computers, AND making it harder to get by without IE.

I still feel that it's perfectly okay for MS to embed the browser into their OS. It's actually reasonable and expected to do that. There are perfectly sound reasons for that.

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Hi! How are you tonight?

What was unreasonable was the way they forced vendors to not ship Netscape.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Most companies have a kind of monopoly on something, these days. It all depends on how you look at it and what you count as a "market". If you count "Android applications" as a market, Google is dominant.

Conditional sales are and should be something consumer-protection agencies look at, because they are usually not good for citizens.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I am not sure. I haven't made up my mind. On one hand, I agree with your argument; on the other, isn't the world a better place now that Firefox and Chrome have become much bigger? That is partly thanks to this policy.

@Cerberus Except they don't have a monopoly. They just have the most popular store. The only thing stopping someone from opening a new app store is advertising.

Not a monopoly, but you don't need one for anti-trust and consumer protection to lay their eyes on your. An oligopoly or a dominant position can be enough. Anything that gives you power.

@Cerberus Yes, the world is a better place because there is competition in the market. MS was rightly found to have damaged the market by playing unfairly. But it's not the "putting IE in Windows" that did them in. It's all the rest of their shenanigans.

I don't know.

I'd have to go back and re-read the judgement in that case.

But there was way more to it than just putting IE in Windows.

Chrome and FF say they saw a huge drop in downloads during the period when MS stopped offering the browser-choosing screen in Windows 7 during installation.

Oh, I am sure.

Also, I just read the FAQ for compatibility licensing for Android. You can get the Android source for free and get a device certified for free. But to get Maps, Youtube, and Play (etc) you need to enter an agreement with Google. They don't disclose what that agreement is online.

But I'm just talking about the measure forcing MS to have a choosing screen.

@Cerberus Oh. Well... that's only in Europe. Actually I don't think that's really important.

Windows doesn't do that here.

It is important for my argument.

Force browser screen => more diversity => 4. profit (for society)

Nah. The browser diversity was a done deal by then.

But it gave it an extra impetus.

Sure, it increases it a bit, but whatever. Browser diversity is pretty strong in the US and Canada and we don't have that screen.

That screen was just a punishment.

The point is that forcing things upon large companies can benefit the public in the end.

Even if they haven't violated any rules.

well, sure. Except that MS did violate lots of rules.

Sure.

But I don't care about rules.

But I'm not sure that Google is violating any rules.

And I don't even know that society is really being harmed by what they're doing.

I care about what's good for society. Rules can be good or bad. And you need to have some rules, and some consistency. But there are also other things.

Now, you want to talk about a more tangible problem? How about the transaction fees for the Play store and the iTunes store?

Think not of harm: think about benefit!

Yeah, those.

Well, I don't know.

What about them?

How much are they anyway?

@Cerberus No, I don't think I like the idea that companies must provide maximum benefit to society. That is a dangerous road. At some point society might decide that the most benefit would be to nationalize the company or something. I don't like that sort of thing.

@Cerberus Thirty fucking percent

And the terms of service for the app stores preclude you from collecting the money through your own payment systems. Apple actually enforces this strictly.

Example: you have an e-book store and have a free e-book app that allows users to buy books from your store. Apple provides a download link for the app. In return for that link, Apple wants a third of your business.

And Apple DOES have a monopoly on app stores for the iphone

Google charges the same fees for the same service for the same reason, except they have been more lenient about ignoring the policy. so far.

They've made noises about enforcement, but that's all.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Why not nationalise companies? Of course you have to careful.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Both?

@Cerberus yes

@Cerberus Because I believe in capitalism.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Ah, yes, that should be forbidden. I know about that.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 With limits. Surely you have nationalised companies?

@Cerberus very rarely.

We have some companies that are owned by the government, but only a few.

There's nothing wrong with rarely.

And it should be recognised that interfering with the free market too much is not beneficial to society either.

Exactly.

However, in the end, the ultimate goal of government should be the benefit of society, both in the short and long terms.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 On the other hand, let's consider Ebay. What if I make all my products free and let people pay through "shipping costs"?

well, yes. But the thing is, constant meddling by governments in business affairs is costly in the short term and often useless in the long term. Eg that browser screen. I'm sure it costs MS a lot of money and has little net benefit to the world.

That doesn't seem entirely fair to Ebay.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 As I said, I am not sure what to think of the browser screen.

I think it was perhaps a bit of a silly thing to bother with for the EC.

@Cerberus Right. But what would you advocate for Google and its store viz software rules?

@Cerberus They probably have a policy to deal with that exact scenario.

And ebay is also nowhere near a monopoly.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 The EU could forbid that policy, in theory. But I don't think that would be a good idea.

@Cerberus You mean the EU could forbid eBay having a policy that ensures fair transaction fees?

Bundled sales is a very important thing consumer-protection agencies are ware of.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It could in theory forbid Ebay from forcing people to have a price significantly larger than shipping costs or something. The EU can do anything, see the browser screen. I mention this just because it is in some ways similar to the Apple thing about in-app purchases.

I.e. I'm trying to think of reasons why the EU should not intervene in the app/play stores.

@Cerberus I can totally agree with intervening on the matter of transaction fees. There are very high costs for developers.

But intervening on the matter of cyanogenmod's data-faking permissions thingy? I don't see that.

Why would you specifically intervene there?

@Cerberus because 30% transaction fees are totally unreasonable.

Google is forcing a not-for-profit party to refrain from doing something that is very good for customers. The only disadvantage I see is that Google might be unhappy and in theory, in the long term be slightly less productive.

A more market-fair situation would be to have certain tiers of service, where developers have to pay for certain things or else pay higher fees or whatever. There should be lots of leeway for vendors to have their own payment system. etc.

@Cerberus No, they're only forcing them to do so if they want to use gapps. That is a big difference.

A conditional sale.

it isn't even a sale!

Trade, then.

"here's this free thing. If you want to use our other thing, you have to follow these rules"

Yes. If the rules are very bad for society, there could be reason to intervene.

Why should the fact that it is free be such an overwhelming factor?

I think the bar must be set pretty high in this case.

How do you mean?

@Cerberus Because the perverse situation is that if they hadn't given CM anything, then there would be no cause to complain about what they're doing.

So?

they give away this amazing thing, but then get punished for having rules about using the optional app store.

Google is not a person.

That isn't the point.

Nothing to do with them being a person.

You seem to be reasoning from an ethical perspective?

The crux of the matter is that they have rules on who can enter the app store.

The crux of the matter is also that the EU has rules on who can enter the common market.

And nobody has rules that the EU has to comply with. Except some treaties.

Not that it matters...

@Cerberus I don' t know what you mean by that. My point is that if you force them to let cyanogenmod do X, Google could just as easily respond by not releasing any more Android source.

Ah, but would they?

That is what I named as the only possible disadvantage. It certainly deserves some reflexion.

@Cerberus But you haven't even demonstrated harm. Your "very good" bit needs some actual evidence.

Well, I may not be able to get the permission settings I want on Cyanogen.

Because of what Google did.

Unless you install an app.

Or fork CM.

And so all kinds of applications might install malware and steal my data/money.

The problem is, none of the applications available work as well as Pdroid, and Pdroid still has a couple of bugs, and it is difficult to install anyway.

You're exaggerating.

Perhaps.

Frankly, I am unable to estimate the risk.

Anyway I have to get going.

But it is known to happen.

OK good night!

@Cerberus me neither. I agree that I wish certain permissions could be blocked. I think it will inevitably happen for a couple APIs, like contacts.

cya

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I think so too. But I want all permissions to be blockable, because there is a potential benefit.

And, as long as you spoof data, chances are slight to non-existent that applications will crash.

Dang, I missed @Mahnax.

I wanted more horizontal scrollbar advice.

Goodnight, gents. Argue nicely. :)

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 This is indeed an impressive number.

Impressively low.

> Congressmen and candidates for Congress spend between 30 and 70 % of their time trying to get reelected, by trying to secure funding.

(My paraphrase.)

I already knew this.

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Sorry! I was away. I'll be around tomorrow evening if you'd still like help then.

> At least 50 % of the Senate and 42 % of the House become lobbyists afterwards.

@Cerberus @Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 nice transcript, I enjoyed reading it.

@Cerberus respect CET?

@JohanLarsson CAn you leave a message for MετάEd?

@MετάEd I responded to your question on Web Applications: webapps.stackexchange.com/a/42644/29140

^ that is the message?

He should have a ping/notification in his inbox next time he logs in

It's not often I write comments like that, but when I do I make sure to down vote

I have never downvoted yet but I write comments like that every now and then. Especially on questions.

Do you know if my account can get locked from deleting many of my own answers?

it can

if you delete too many at once it might get picked up as vandalism

i'm not sure of the rules behind that

ok I usually delete my answer if someone else replies the same thing

And upvote the other answer

Just noise to have two identical answers imo

oh, that should be fine

it's lots of deletes in quick sucession that triggers the suspension

or alerts the mods

which ever happens

Do you know a good tool to download Youtube playlists?

never tried it, sorry

ok

Hello

Everyone

hi

How are you @JohanLarsson

Fine but at work so not very chatty :)

Okay.

How is @MattЭллен doing?

Is anyone familiar with the AP Style?

Doing OK. How are you? Did you get some sleep?

I don't know about AP style. Is AP "Associated Press"?

Yeah, I did.

good

Yes

I think they have a book, but I dont know where to find it.

Ah. Sorry, I can't help.

Certain things are very confusing in this style.

have you googled "ap style book"?

apparently it's avaiable online. I don't know the cost

Yeah, apparently I get a link to a page that gives little information.

well, I'm guessing they won't show you the contents unless you buy the book :D

Maybe. But on Amazon I get a very long list for it. I dont know which one to pick.

apstylebook.com

@tchrist you mad sir?

No. I am perfectly compos mentis.

youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zPjUsu2-QMQ

compost mentos. minty and fertile

@MattЭллен Thank you. Looks like the book is very expensive.

yes

although $26/year doesn't seem too bad

especially since it's continually updated

but I guess if you only need it once, that's still too much

when someone says "I'm going to get you in a minute" then does it mean I'm going to bash you up in a minute?

Yeah, that's what I thought.

@TemporaryNickName maybe.

or it could mean they will come and get you (for the thing you're waiting for) in a minute

cool

@TemporaryNickName It might also mean that they something out of the sentence.

By the way, I hate those international students in Australia who are paying thousand dollars to schools but they end up hanging out with other Asian guys all the time =(

why do you hate them?

surely that means more non-Chinese guys for you?

Or do you prefer the Chinese guys and there aren't enough to go around?

I do not mind hanging out with Chinese guys because we are going to speak in English but majority of international students always stick with people who are from same countries

I see

passes out articles liberally

By the way, I hate competitive eaters on Youtube

most of them usually drink water to help them swallow food faster

lol

for example this guy

youtube.com/user/furiouspete123

Hate not the stupid; pity them.

isn't the best technique to dip the bun in water and then deepthroat the whole dog?

I want to tell them all, water is for pussies.

@tchrist passes out, liberally

wet pussy... yeah, it certainly has advantages

lol

@MattЭллен faints

sorry, @tchrist, I forget your delicate nature

@MattЭллен No, it’s because I couldn’t get any air.

0_0

“Eat off”? Is this some sort of meat-offering?

@TemporaryNickName Is that the verb, eating off?

jinx

Isn't it like saying the "show-off" but instead it's eat-off ?

$ oedgrep eat.off
beat off ← beat
eat off ← eat
meat-offering ← meat
 › streat-office ← streat
to beat off ← beat [v.1]

What's going on in here?

an eating competion hate-off

stands behind Kit Yeah, what's going on in here. looks stern

liberally speaking

It's much too early for wet pussy and beating off.

welp, it's time for me to commoot

so there'll be neither for me

@MattЭллен Maybe you'll crash into someone on the way home.

Ubuntu get boring?

haha

I dont use Ubuntu. I am on Mac. I dont know. People say its interface changes much too often.

IE lovers, the lot of them.

tries to think of other ways to bait them

I saw a funny person on train yesterday. He was wearing a bag that he has wrote saying "metal rules" and the same sentence on front of his t-shirt and was scribbling down some random texts on his notebook.

@KitFox Okay, sorry then.

@TemporaryNickName articles

@TemporaryNickName Did he have hair dyed black and piercings?

yeah, exactly

Teenager?

he had pointy hair and it was pretty funny to watch it

How about a black leather wristband with metal studs?

nope, he was a grown man

it's just so funny to see he has written "metal rules" on his bag

Well...it does though.

\vmv/

@TemporaryNickName He probably wrote that because he tried using wooden rules, but they tend to splinter and bend and get nicks and dents and so your lines aren't straight anymore.

This guy is totally screwed.

Well, that’s complete bull.

I am adding all of you lamers to my ignore list.

@Noah That means you.

Apparently several @@@@@@@s flagged me for saying @@@@@@@. Thanks, @@@@@@@s. You’re all @@@@@@.

I’m glad this place has come to such a prissy state.

The Tragedy of the Commons, and of @@@@@@@.

That was completely uncalled for, @Noah. So please @@@@ @ @@@@@@ @@@@ and @@@@@@@@@ tutta @@@@@@ voi @@'@@@@@@@. (Sorry, had to censor the non-English.)

Have @@@@.

from here

@KitFox 20-30 kids? Isn't there a rule of thumb that you should have at most the number of kids as the age?

also re "so that the kids are happy, and there are no casualties and property damage at the same time". There'a theorem in parenting that states of these three, you can have at most none of these at any time.

@TemporaryNickName That was me.

Wrist bands with studs are for lamers, obviously.

@Mitch Well, we've had more, but not that many. And for a 4-year-old? WTF? Not even a major birthday.

For 3 hours. In the late afternoon, just before dinner time.

@tchrist Oh, is that where you went? I saw just the artifact of the flag.

So I didn't know what it referred to.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Oh! It's LEGO!

Netherlands, historic town hall, destroyed in an attack by angry citizens a while ago.

Apparently, they rammed the building at night with several cars containing flammable materials.

It's almost Mediaeval.