English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Robusto

01:47

@Vitaly — Cool gravatar. I liked it aesthetically even before you gave your reasons.

Robusto

01:59

Also, did you know that the ancient Spartans had the capital Lambda on their round shields? Lambda, obviously, for Lakedaemon (Λακεδαίμων) ... which looked kind of like a spearpoint. Very martial.

Cerberus

Ding!

Robusto

What did I win?

Cerberus

I will bear you on my shield.

You are but a character anyway.

Robusto

"Just because you're a character doesn't mean you have character."

Cerberus

Those would not be my exact words!

kiamlaluno

02:02

@Cerberus Bear, character: are you trying to say something?

Cerberus

@Kiam: I say what I say!

Robusto

Young Spartans at play:

Note: boys and girls together. Unique, I think, in all of Hellas.

Cerberus

Sweet!

But ehm did Spartan girls train with boys?

Robusto

Not in the same way. But they did attend the games and even compete in some events.

Cerberus

That must have been splendid.

kiamlaluno

02:05

Spartans were unique in many ways. For example, why do you think they punished the thieves?

Cerberus

Are there any non-mythical societies whose women were employed in battle on a large scale?

Robusto

"Girls as well as boys exercised nude, and young women as well as young men may have participated in the Gymnopaedia ("Festival of Nude Youths")" Wikipedia

Cerberus

@Kiam: For failing?

Robusto

For getting caught.

kiamlaluno

@Cerberus For being caught.

Cerberus

02:06

Exactly.

Robusto

Jinx

Mine was better English too.

Cerberus

Failing = getting caught

Robusto

No. Failing can mean you didn't steal what you set out to.

So yours is ambiguous. I win.

Cerberus

Yes but that is rare.

I was first. Does that not count?

Robusto

@Cerberus — It's rare not to steal what you tried to steal?

kiamlaluno

02:07

It's not a Jinx, as you didn't say the exact words I used.

Robusto

You were the first to be wrong. I'll give you that much.

Cerberus

It is rare to give up.

Robusto

@kiamlaluno — I said the words you would have said if you were any good at English.

@Cerberus — Who said anything about giving up?

Cerberus

Hey. Be nice.

kiamlaluno

@Robusto Cough, cough.

Cerberus

02:08

If you give up, you fail without getting caught.

Robusto

But if you don't get what you go after, you fail as well. So you are making my point. Two ways to fail now, apart from "being caught" :)

kiamlaluno

Let us analyze what you say about using the gerund/participle, and what you replied about "I like being/I like to be."

Cerberus

I still maintain that the obvious way for a thief to fail is getting caught, not giving up. But perhaps either my thieving skills or my courage exceed yours. It is no matter.

Robusto

@kiamlaluno — Orly?

@Cerberus — I'm fully prepared to bow to your superior skills at thieving. Also, does plagiarism count?

Cerberus

@Rob: That is how I like it.

Yes, plagiarism counts!

kiamlaluno

02:11

Copy and paste doesn't count.

Cerberus

I am contemplating whether Billare is right in asserting that an arms race does not qualify as a Hobbesian trap.

8

A: What is a "Hobbesian trap"?

Thomas Hobbes believed that human beings are essentially ruthless competitors, with only their personal interest at heart. Living in a state of anarchy, each man would crave another man's possessions and make his life a living hell. That is why an all-powerful state is necessary. But why should ...

Robusto

@kiamlaluno — Who died and made you Fagin?

kiamlaluno

@Robusto Vagin?

Cerberus

?

Robusto

Fagin: that is, the head thief.

Fagin

Fagin () is a fictional character who appears as the main antagonist of the Charles Dickens novel Oliver Twist, referred to in the preface of the novel as a "receiver of stolen goods", but referred to more frequently within the actual story as the "merry old gentleman" or simply the "Jew". Character Born in London, Fagin is described as "disgusting" to look at. He is the leader of a group of children, the Artful Dodger and Charley Bates among them, whom he teaches to make their livings by pickpocketing and other criminal activities in exchange for a roof over their heads. At the time of...

Cerberus

02:14

Robusto, is it that fine Rhine wine you had locked away for special occasions?

Or some kind of pill?

A charm? An elixer?

Robusto

@Cerberus — Umm ... look above.

Cerberus

No I mean the substance you ingested.

Robusto

I had some wine. Not too much, though. Couple of glasses. Why?

Cerberus

Is it the moon? It is full and round here.

Nothing, nothing at all.

kiamlaluno

> My sister was caught in a thunderstorm.

Cerberus

02:16

?

Who are you quoting?

kiamlaluno

@Cerberus Do you quote only people?

Cerberus

No I sometimes quote furniture, but only if its remarks are exceedingly amusing.

kiamlaluno

My furniture doesn't speak; I don't have that luck.

Robusto

@Cerberus — So you only quote "chairy" remarks?

Cerberus

You lack the necessary incantations, then?

kiamlaluno

02:19

It's actually the furniture that lack something.

Cerberus

Chairy? I must be lacking knowledge...

Lack, lack, lack... why are we not pondering redundancy?

kiamlaluno

The important is not lacking furniture.

Robusto

@Cerberus — "Chairy" is a slant rhyme of "cheery" ... and it is a pun on "chair" of course.

Cerberus

If you were given half a millions euros to buy furniture, what would you buy?

kiamlaluno

One pound of lack is like two pounds of iron.

Cerberus

02:21

@Rob: Ah! I see... yes I got the chair part.

kiamlaluno

@Cerberus I would not buy furniture because I don't need.

Robusto

Well, don't slow-roll me like that. I thought I had to keep explaining.

Cerberus

Heh.

@Kiam: Of course, you inherited it all and are not the kind of person who "buys his own furniture".

kiamlaluno

@Cerberus That is not exact.

Cerberus

No?

kiamlaluno

02:23

I actually bought my own furniture, but I don't need to spend half million euros.

Cerberus

I think I'd buy some 17th-century cupboards and closets.

Robusto

The most important piece of furniture these days is a decent computer chair.

Cerberus

Yes, but it has also got to be elegant.

kiamlaluno

The most important furniture is the one in the kitchen.

Cerberus

A computer chair is an extremely difficult object to pick.

It'd have to be a wooden chair, with some kind of upholstery, and wheels... but I have no idea what it would have to look like.

And it must be comfortable, of course.

I should go to bed... bye!

Robusto

02:29

Bye.

I'm out too.

Cerberus

Night!

kiamlaluno

03:13

0

Q: Someone told me "fair" is the "F" word, they don't like it in their house, is that correct?

I used "It's not fair", but someone told me "fair" is the "F" word, and they don't like it in their house. Is that correct? Should I really avoid using it?

usage

What does the question mean? Somebody told him to not use that word in their house, and he asks if he should not use that word everywhere.

kiamlaluno

04:47

@Cerberus It looks like a scooter chair.

Be careful to not use it in a room with a big glass wall.

Alain Pannetier

09:00

Hi all,
My neighbours with whom I kindly shared my Internet connection have manage to eat up my monthly 8GB allowance in just 10 days so that I'm out of Internet at home for the rest of the month.
I'm still catching up with all the events of this week end!
Well done to @Billare and @Cerberus for their remarkable insights into Hobbesian traps and Leviathan! And thanks to @Ashwin for these two interesting questions.

RegDwight

09:40

0

Q: Examples for formerly wrong expressions (e.g. by foreigners) that are so funny that they become mainstream English

I am not a native speaker of English but in German we have some expressions that are literally wrong but so funny that they got mainstream (sometimes tongue in cheek). Examples are "Hier werden Sie geholfen (should be: "Hier wird Ihnen geholfen", "You get help here"" or "Ich habe fertig" (should ...

phrases list-request examples

On-topic? Off-topic? I can think of quite a few examples, but I'm not sure how useful such a collection is.

Also, funny is kind of subjective.

Oh, and @Robusto: you missed this question:

1

Q: What is the English word closest to Japanese “Ganbatte,” the word for encouraging people who are in disaster, or challenging a severe ordeal ?

In Japan, after experiencing the Great Eastern Japan Earthquake, “Ganbatte” which contains all sense of “Cheer up, Bear up, Keep your chin up, Be courageous, Do your best” became the password of everybody on the streets. With this single word, we can portray all meaning of encouragement. I think ...

words

Alain Pannetier

I'd say "on". The first one is close to an English etymology, and beyond that emphasises English openness. Here he comes !

For instance, I've always been careful to avoid "I am agree" which I regarded as a [wrong] literal translation of "Je suis d'accord" and I actually saw it several times. Is this OK ?

Robusto

そうね。

@RegDwight — I answered it anyway. I have a different take from the other questions, so ...

In point of fact, however, is that really an EL&U question?

RegDwight

09:57

Well, translation is off-topic. Single-word requests aren't.

So it could probably use some rewording.

Alain Pannetier

@Robusto, if the OP hadn't included any reference to Japanese or Chinese, that would be a single word request. No ?

Robusto

Well, except 頑張って is not a single word. :)

Neither are the answers!

But I don't care. I like Oishi-san for some reason.

Alain Pannetier

;-) He deserves it !

Robusto

He reminds me of an old man who used to politely school my Japanese at a noodle shop in Tokyo where I used to take lunch.

I used to help him with his English and he would reciprocate.

RegDwight

Was it a customer or did he work there?

Robusto

10:02

He worked there.

A lot of people won't tell you "working class" speech in Japanese. They think it is too rude for foreigner's ears.

Not that Oishi-san does that, of course. But somehow I picture that guy when I respond to one of his questions. His name was Nobu (Nobu-san to me).

Oishi-san is almost 80, you know? So we are honor-bound to add the -san. It's habit with me.

@RegDwight: Hey, are the generated Gravatars unique? I'm thinking they could be.

RegDwight

I think they are.

Robusto

All they are is random shapes formed into squares, then repeated and rotated four times into a larger square.

Kind of clever, actually.

Kaleidoscopic.

0

Q: Examples for formerly wrong expressions (e.g. by foreigners) that are so funny that they become mainstream English

I am not a native speaker of English but in German we have some expressions that are literally wrong but so funny that they got mainstream (sometimes tongue in cheek). Examples are "Hier werden Sie geholfen (should be: "Hier wird Ihnen geholfen", "You get help here"" or "Ich habe fertig" (should ...

phrases list-request examples

OT?

RegDwight

@Robusto Um, see above?

Right before you arrived.

Robusto

Uh, OK. I think it's OT.

I'm still wiping the sleep out of my eyes. Plus waiting for coffee.

RegDwight

Where the O stands for...?)))

Robusto

10:12

On or Off. Take your pick.

Actually, I see it's CW, so I guess that's all right.

RegDwight

Anyhow, back to gravatars, IIRC they are based on md5 hashes of email addresses, so theoretically two (or even thousands!) of people could have identical gravatars.

@Robusto Well, I had to CW it.

Robusto

Thousands of people could have identical gravatars?

RegDwight

Theoretically, yes.

Extremely unlikely.

Robusto

And if they're based on email addresses, theoretically they could be deconstructed to reveal the email address of the user?

RegDwight

Md5sum

md5sum is a computer program that calculates and verifies 128-bit MD5 hashes, as described in RFC 1321. The MD5 hash (or checksum) functions as a compact digital fingerprint of a file. It is extremely unlikely that any two non-identical files existing in the real world will have the same MD5 hash (although as with all such hashing algorithms, there are an unlimited number of files that will have any given MD5 hash). Because almost any change to a file will cause its MD5 hash to also change, the MD5 hash is commonly used to verify the integrity of files (i.e., to verify that a file has ...

Robusto

10:21

So is our little chat room here an example of a Habermasian public sphere?

RegDwight

Please no Habermas early in the morning.

Robusto

In other news, looks like Oishi-san took back the checkmark from some other dude and gave it to me.

RegDwight

Haha, never expected anything else to happen.

Robusto

I just said 頑張って to myself and soldiered on.

Safari just crashed on me. It's crashing on YouTube lately for some reason related to Flash.

Was trying to link this:

►

Even though @Reg probably can't access it.

RegDwight

First Habermas, now Oasis. It isn't getting better.

@Robusto I can, but I refuse to.

Robusto

10:28

Hey, I like Oasis. Sosiouxme.

RegDwight

I will.

Robusto

Their latest album is really good.

RegDwight

That one I'm not familiar with, so I can't tell.

Robusto

I'm offee for coffee.

RegDwight

Have fun.

Robusto

11:24

No work for me today.

Robusto

12:18

Hmm ... not sure I like the app tabs in Firefox 4.

Robusto

12:31

McWhorter states that having a conjugational ending only for the third person singular is unique to English (as far as he knows). I am prepared to take him at his word, but I'm curious what the linguistics cadre here might have to say about that. @Kosmonaut? @nohat? @JSBangs? @RegDwight? @et al.?

kiamlaluno

13:09

5

Q: Is there a list of chat privileges and the minimum reputation required for those privileges?

Is there a list of privileges users have on any chat rooms, which lists the minimum permission required for each privilege?

support chat privileges

@Cerberus That will probably contain the answer to your question about the "blue badges."

kiamlaluno

13:30

> [...] what the bear brands available in his bar [...].

I would rather avoid that bar.

If a bar gives you the choice between "mug," "bottle," "half-pint," how do you collectively call those choices?

Cerberus

@Rob: I have never seen any IE language with as little inflection as English, so it might very well be true...

@KIam: Thanks for the link!

@Kiam: Measurements? Containers?

kiamlaluno

@Cerberus It will help more if anybody will add a comment about my question in the comment.

Cerberus

Huh?

kiamlaluno

I remember I have saw the blue badge before to be moderator, but I didn't see anything when I clicked on it.

@Cerberus Your main concert was about the blue badges.

Cerberus

Oh I did get to see what was behind it.

kiamlaluno

13:44

You asked who should see those badges.

Cerberus

Yes, and your link was helpful.

@kiamlaluno But I didn't get this line.

kiamlaluno

At least, you wondered if you saw those badges because your reputation. Nobody still answered who should see them.

@Cerberus I asked in the comment who should see those blue badges, and I got the answer that is not a documented feature.

Therefore, the answer to the meta question doesn't resolve that.

RegDwight

@Cerberus No! Not thank you @kiamlaluno! I spent the last 30 minutes on SO chat because of him. I had totally forgot it even existed. An unholy place.

Cerberus

Oh I see...

Oh, dear, is it unholy?

RegDwight

The PHP room is more active than all of SE rooms combined. Or something.

Cerberus

13:49

That is sick.

kiamlaluno

Is there a PHP room, here?

Cerberus

Perhaps you could ask Vitaly for some charms to counter the evil?

RegDwight

I checked like the first trillion pages in the Users tab, I didn't know a single person.

Cerberus

At least I assume you smote them with your moderator's hammer?

kiamlaluno

If you know two people, does that still count as "I didn't know a single person"?

Cerberus

13:50

I am sure a high-rep intruder stirred things up?

RegDwight

@Cerberus Actually, I haven't even paid any attention at whether I had mod rights there. But I suppose not.

Cerberus

@Kiam: Yes, learn math.

RegDwight

I just read the protocol.

Cerberus

@Reg: At least you could have brandished your rep to deter the monsters?

kiamlaluno

@Cerberus Which head has spoken, the good, the bad or the ugly?

RegDwight

13:52

PHP is undeterrable.

Cerberus

@Kiam: You can be sure it wasn't the good head! It rarely talks.

Well I am glad I don't know what PHP is.

2

Lest the cursed name leave an imprint on my soul.

Robusto

@kiamlaluno — Il buono, il brutto, il cattivo?

Cerberus

Hey, would you pronounce "cursed" with two syllables?

RegDwight

@Cerberus Wha? You serious? You must be the happiest person on Earth, you lucky bastard.

Cerberus

I notice I sometimes feel the urge to.

Robusto

13:54

@Cerberus — Sometimes.

Cerberus

@Reg: Ignorance is bliss!

@Rob: OK that's what I thought.

kiamlaluno

@Cerberus Yep. Brutto means "ugly," and _buono means "good."

Robusto

I'd be more likely to say the final syllable in the word "accursed" though.

kiamlaluno

I don't know why the Italian titles are never the exact translation of the original one.

Cerberus

Okay I know it is some protocol having to do with forums. But the relation to rooms I am glad escapes me.

Robusto

13:55

@kiamlaluno — IMDB gives that as the title of "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly" in Italian.

Cerberus

But surely cattivo means something like captivated, imprisoned?

RegDwight

@Cerberus PHP is HTML's way of saying, "HURR IMA PROGRAMMIN LANGUAGE".

Cerberus

Haha what the...

Robusto

@RegDwight — PHP = Pretty Happy People

RegDwight

No, that's REM.

Cerberus

13:57

Doesn't sound too happy!

The band?

Robusto

@RegDwight — No, that's "Shiny Happy People"

RegDwight

No, really?

kiamlaluno

@Robusto I was not saying that you didn't translate the title correctly. I was saying they don't translate the original title correctly.

Robusto

@kiamlaluno — I think they think that is the original title, since it was an Italian film (although with American stars).

@RegDwight — Hey, you corrected me first. =P

kiamlaluno

I guess it must be like "black and white," which in Italian is bianco e nero (literally "white and black.")

@Robusto Oh no! Spaghetti western?

RegDwight

13:59

@Robusto Point taken.

Robusto

@kiamlaluno — Si.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…