English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room - 2011-04-18 (page 3 of 4)

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4:00 PM

That is a pretty nifty book you got there. What do the letters stand for?

American Heritage Dictionary of Indo-European Roots

Ah ok. I think that one is also available online, in the webarchive or something?

No idea, it came on the CD with the ‎AHD

it's apparently somewhat available on Google Books

1

A: Are there resources or tools for "reverse etymology"?

The American Heritage Dictionary (used to be online, no more) had great etymology links back to the root of a word, which then had a link to all the words derived from the root. (so you could go backward and forwards in time). Those old pages are available through the 'wayback machine' at http...

Does this question belong to EL&U?

8

Q: How are "yes" and "no" formatted in sentences?

If I am expecting an answer from a question and wish to state my prediction, do I need to use quotes around a simple "yes" or "no"? I think the answer is no. / I think the answer is "no." That would be a yes. / That would be a "yes." Potential end cases: Why would he say, "No"? ...

grammar punctuation quotes

4:12 PM

@Kiam: No idea!

Brb.

Doesn't "tax" derive from the Latin taxare, which in turn could derive from the Greek?

Proto-Indo-European language

The Proto-Indo-European language (PIE) is the reconstructed common ancestor of the Indo-European languages, spoken by the Proto-Indo-Europeans. The existence of such a language has been accepted by linguists for over a century, and reconstruction is far advanced and quite detailed. Scholars estimate that PIE may have been spoken as a single language (before divergence began) around 3700 BC, though estimates by different authorities can vary by more than a millennium. The most popular hypothesis for the origin and spread of the language is the Kurgan hypothesis, which postulates an origi...

Does that mean pies are taxed?

@RegDwight — Genau.

@kiamlaluno — If pies can be charted, presumably they can be taxed.

4:30 PM

@Robusto Uhmmm... I guess they can. Does that mean I am a "tax evader," if I don't pay taxes on pies?

I hope they are at least "easy as a pie."

@kiamlaluno — That's the worst kind of tax evasion. But entirely understandable.

@Robusto I know, I know, but the temptation is too strong.

"If when you die you get a choice between pie heaven and regular heaven, choose pie heaven. It might be a trick, but if not ... mmmboy!" — Jack Handey

I thought it would be worst to not go to Zelig, but I understand it depends from the point of view.

@kiamlaluno Are you referring to the yes/no question?

4:35 PM

@MrHen The question after that line.

@kiamlaluno Mmk. Is there a better way for me to phrase the question? Why did you ask if it was an EL&U question?

@Kiam: According to Vitaly's quote, tax is probably a mixture of Latin tangere and Greek taktein/tassein.

@MrHen: Ahem. Why were you daring to post contrary opinions on meta when @Cerberus and I had clearly expressed our preference in the other direction? The nerve!

According to Wikipedia, there are no textbooks on linguistics worthy of a reference.

@Rob: He did WHAT!?

4:40 PM

That's the impression I get whenever I try to find a book on linguistics to read, using Wikipedia.

@MrHen Questions about the punctuation marks to use seems a little on the border with writers.SE, sometimes.

@Cerberus — I couldn't believe it either.

@Cerberus My NOAD agrees with me.

@Robusto Because you were wrong? ;)

@Kiam: Yeah I can understand that argument... I just fail to have any opinions of my own on the matter!

4:41 PM

@MrHen — See, now you've outed yourself as crazy/mistaken.

@kiamlaluno Was that directed at me?

@Robusto Oh. Oops.

@Cerberus and I aren't always right, but we are never wrong!

@Vitaly: I have this vague idea that there might be some textbooks on linguistics worthy ofour attention, somewhere... but where?

My point exactly.

user image

4:42 PM

> ORIGIN Middle English (also in the sense "estimate or determine the amount of a penalty or damages," surviving sense 4 of the verb): from Old French taxer, from Latin taxare "to censure, charge, compute," perhaps from Greek tassein"fix."

@Rob: Eh, right!

@Kiam: See?

@MrHen — Ooh! Shiny! Colors! Where did Mr. Hen go? I am blinded!

@Robusto "I have always agreed with you..."

Also, my browser just wonked out. I blame the toad.

does one have to actually attend a university to learn linguistics or something?

even maths seems easier given the loads of textbook references on Wikipedia

@Cerberus I am sorry, I selected the wrong post. I was selecting the @MrHen's one, but it has been scrolled up.

4:43 PM

@kiamlaluno Punctuation is a part of English, no?

@Vitaly — "A child educated only at school is an uneducated child." — George Santayana

@Vitaly, teaching onesself linguistics is possible, I suppose, but bloody difficult

bloody difficult due to lack of lists of books to read?

@MrHen It is part of English, indeed. It is just that when it is a matter of style, I feel the question suits better writers.SE. That doesn't mean it is so, though.

then I agree

4:45 PM

@Vitaly, due to too many, I would say, once you find them.

It's a highly technical pursuit

@kiamlaluno Ah, I see. I wasn't originally asking about style but the comments sort of drifted that way. I am genuinely interested in the proper usage/grammar here.

@Cerberus I see it says "from Latin taxare," and then "probably from Greek."

so far I've only found either Chomskyan generativist linguistics books or books for the lay audience

@mfe And conflicting, no? If I understand correctly, people sort of disagree a lot.

Or, at least, they did when I was polling for opinions on the subject

or separate books about tone, case, number, etc

4:47 PM

@MrHen, that's buried in my "too many" comment, sort of. There seem to be as many systems for linguistic study as topics

@MrHen Yeah, the answer make appear the question a little different. Actually, you used the tag grammar.

It's not unlike some of the responses you see on the board here. Some people tend towards the references for answers, some view "dictionary questions" as style and context questions

(Are we on a board? Can I surf, then?)

Sorry, was distracted by something.

@kiamlaluno Is grammar correct? I assumed it was. The comments/answers seem to be suggesting that this is another subjective area of punctuation. That in and of itself answers the question: "This is a style choice" is a perfectly fine (and likely correct) answer to the question I asked.

Ugh, I just found a dino answer that was copied and pasted into a separate question.

Absolutely identical; 14 secs apart.

5:03 PM

@MrHen Maybe grammaticality is better.

@MrHen If you want to know what is grammatically correct, then that is the tag I would use.

@kiamlaluno I am more interested in the rules at play, not whether a particular example is or is not valid. Which of the two is appropriate for that?

@kiamlaluno Ah, you answered before I hit "enter"

I would use grammar if I would ask what the grammar defines as noun, for example.

@kiamlaluno Mmk.

Let's get @RegDwight's opinion

Catching up...

@MrHen He will say the opposite of what I said, I am sure.

5:05 PM

@Vitaly: If you are looking for an introductory but scientific textbook about linguistics, I'm sure there are plenty...?

@Cerberus: Chomskian?

Why do we have an economics tag?

@Billare maybe a dup of business-language ?

or perhaps something to occur in conjunction with jargon

@JSBangs The question about positive economics would fit in better with jargon, I think.

@JSBangs I think jargon fits.

5:09 PM

@MrHen My opinion is that Konrad Rudolph is not entirely right.

typically jargon occurs together with another tag that explains the domain. this is why we have, for example technical

I think... (Wow, do I?)

so i don't see any reason we should necessarily eliminate economics if it's relevant

@Vit: I once read one in Dutch, in which Chomsky was only a minor part. It was pretty elementary, though.

@RegDwight Do you mean "ketchup"?

5:10 PM

brb

@Cerberus: Well, I cannot seem to find an advanced one in English without that Chomskian… stuff.

…that is published in the 2000s

5:25 PM

@Vitaly: Is it perhaps that you are looking for something that is both general and specialised? "Advanced" doesn't sound like that kind of book that would be about linguistics in general.

If it can be introductory, I'm sure there are plenty:

How do you classify this answer?

1

A: Can you have a singular "dreg"

No, it is not incorrect: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dreg Many - scissors, pants, trousers, binoculars - perhaps duplicate of this closed question? where I learned about 1000 English pluralia tantum and Mass nouns and wasted my time with a comment instead of answering

books.google.com/…

I basically want a book or several books such that reading them would enable me to understand all discussions held by professional linguists and all academic papers in linguistics-related journals, perhaps with some (but not extensive) preliminary acquiantance with concepts being used, if they're too specific to appear in general books @Cerberus

Ah, ok. And how much do you know already?

Let's say nothing.

5:31 PM

As an introduction, The History of English is a pretty good book.

Would it make sense to read a textbook used for an introductory course in linguistics at university before proceeding to more specific topics?

And are you mainly interested in English linguistics?

@Cerberus Sort of, but not limited to. It would be nice to understand what is being said about Indo-European languages in general.

“theme vowel” was a new term for me

"theme vowel" is pretty much specific to discussions of IE historical linguistics

Theme vowel is morphology/phonology mostly.

Okay, my advice: 1. read a Linguistics 101 textbook. 2. Read a text book on historical linguistics next.

@Vitaly, you are probably better off learning the concepts as they come, in the short term. After a point, when you start to see correlations that interest you, it's easier to find the right books

5:35 PM

1. shouldn't be too hard to find. I'd say pick one that is mainly about English, since that will give you easier access to other books.

Thanks guys, you've been helpful.

physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=317278

This is a guy asking for an introductory book on linguistics. If you Google around, you'll find many more.

This one has a lot of exercises, might be a bit too patronizing: books.google.com/…

@Cerberus That one seems to be giving stuff that is mostly covered by any decent basic-level English as a foreign language course, no?

@Vit: I don't think so? I must say I haven't read this book; while it starts out at a very basic level, I think it also goes deeper, building on those basics?

Well I don't know; perhaps it is best to Google up a few books, borrow them at the library, and see which one suits your style or expectations.

Our libraries suck, did I mention that? :)

Mostly pre-1990 books.

Also, in Russian.

5:50 PM

Ow... you have no access to a decent university library? Then perhaps find the books on bookfinder.com. If you're lucky they can be pretty cheap.

Our university libraries suck, too.

When I attended a university, they weren't even able to provide all of the students with textbooks.

The textbooks were always in short supply.

Oh we have to buy all textbooks ourselves, and the recommended book stores were often out of stock; then we'd have to make do with photocopied chapters for months. Happens all the time here.

The most peculiar part about it is that the textbooks were published by the university press itself…

Hah okay... well I think we had that too here, their failing to print enough of their own books.

Were you by any chance in the ex-USSR? :PPP

5:55 PM

Nope Holland!

Sounds like ex-USSR.

In my first week at university, the photocopied timetables with all the classes and locations were supposed to be on some shelf in the corridor of one of the many university buildings; but when I went looking for them, they had all been taken. They weren't on the internet yet at the time, so I had to call my fellow students to ask where we were supposed to go and when.

Oh, and the uni I attended didn't even have an Internet subscription to scientific journals until the year 2006.

Haha okay you win.

Oh I have to go, dinner is about to be served...

Good luck on your search!

Later @Cerberus

Thank you.

5:58 PM

Bye!

6:49 PM

hi all

or hi no one, if more appropriate

@Fx Hi there. I've been waiting for you.

long time no sea, as they say in Switzerland

Switzerland does have a navy.

I ruined a perfect sequence of 87 straight days (since my first day here) by volunteering for vacations in a place with no internet access

You had fun?

6:52 PM

@RegDwight that would ruin my joke if it were "long time, no navy"… but then it would be a poor joke to begin with, wouldn't it?

@RegDwight as a parent of a two-month old toddler, any time in a place were nice relatives keep him for some time is "fun"!

so yes

That's all that matters.)))

scratch the toddler part, I checked and two month is too young for that term

@Fx I ruined a perfect sequence of 80+ days on several sites due to summer time or some other glitch in the system.

Also, they ruined my perfect sequence of 93 days on Atheism by killing the site.

But more to the point, why I've been waiting for you: Nancy.

@RegDwight what?

Apr 5 at 22:14, by F'x

so, Nancy is boring; they're proud of their "place Stanislas", which sure is a beautiful alignment of cobble stones, but not much more

6:56 PM

where is Nancy? never heard of it

@RegDwight so, to what extent do you agree with my description?

I must say it wasn't that bad. Not bad at all, in fact. And for a one-day trip, half cultural, half entertainment, half shopping, close to perfect.

I mean, I probably wouldn't want to move there permanently. But still.

They even had some fair going on, so we had a ferris wheel ride.

good, then!

I think I even slightly prefer Nancy over Metz.

Nancy (; archaic ; ) is a city in the north-eastern French department of Meurthe-et-Moselle, and formerly the capital of the Duchy of Lorraine, and then the French province of the same name. The city is the head of the department. The metropolitan area of Nancy had a population of 410,509 inhabitants at the 1999 census, 103,602 of whom lived in the city of Nancy proper (105,100 inhabitants in the city proper as of 2004 estimates). The motto of the city is Non inultus premor, Latin for "No one touches me with impunity" a reference to the thistle, which is a symbol of Lorraine. History ...

Nancy is smaller, but posher

6:59 PM

@Fx We also liked the zoo a lot.

My wife even took a picture of a peacock in flight.

seen any owl?

No, but quite a few donkeys.

And an excellent children's store.

Truly fantastic.

My wife keeps saying that the French have the best children's books evar.

and mine (living in France) says that Quebec is where the real research in education science is :)

grass, green, fence, …

The grass is always greener on the other side of the ocean.

Jinx.

well, the grass is always greener on the other side of the Channel, but they have a scientific name for it

rain

7:03 PM

Oh, and I wasn't under the impression that Nancy was smaller. In terms of interesting places to go, at least.

Metz had like exactly one street where we could do some shopping.

Exactly one supermarket to which we kept returning.

Nancy was more vivid.

@JSBangs Isn't Nancy Pelosi in USA?

In Italy, you would not keep returning under the same window: you would risk to get tons of junk over your head.

But one thing that was immensely distracting was all those skyscrapers and concrete buildings that didn't quite fit in.

It was a weird mix, in terms of architecture.

Not unlike Berlin or Moscow.

They didn't have Palladio around there.

I would like to go to Berlin, but I would not want they exchange me for an African.

Did I say the joke about three Germans being undercover in Italy?

I don't think so.

Should I say it? I promise it's not offensive, nor dirty.

7:10 PM

Just tell it already.

Actually, it was two Germans.

Hahahaha. Hahahahahahaha.

Already? I didn't start, yet.

Best joke I've ever heard.

Oh.

Two Germans are undercover in Italy, and they go to a bar to order something to drink.

"We must be careful; nobody must know we are from Germany."

[I translate it in English, but the original joke is in Italian.]

7:13 PM

Mind = blown.

"What would you like to drink?"

"Martini."

"Martini dry?"

I see it coming.

"Nein, nein... nein drei, zwei!"

That should be "keine drei, zwei".

Even nicht would work.

Kirey?

7:15 PM

I would has said "nicht", but then my German is quite bad

Yes, but they were pretending to not come from Germany.

Then they succeeded.

See? That was the joke.

Now you can stop laughing, or start scratching your armpit.

A double-layer joke. Those crazy Italians.

We use that joke instead of the Turing test.

7:18 PM

Mar 9 at 13:13, by Robusto

I passed my Turing test and have a diploma to prove it.

Feb 28 at 3:13, by Robusto

I think you need to study harder for your Turing test, @kiamlaluno.

Feb 17 at 19:27, by Robusto

My humanity was never in doubt. It's @RegDwight who shies away from Turing tests.

If somebody says "what do you find funny in this joke? They were pretending to not come from Germany", then he doesn't pass the test.

Feb 17 at 18:57, by RegDwight

Okay. Then I'll just point out that Elton John would certainly pass a Turing test. Nudge, nudge.

Does that mean EJ tells the difference between his dog, and a computer?

No.

See, you don't pass the Turing test.

By the way, what is the difference between a dog and a computer?

7:21 PM

At least 7 letters.

What is another difference?

Dogs are smarter.

No.

Okay, then dogs are stupider.

I mean, that is not the difference.

7:23 PM

Dogs are just as smart as computers?

I see somebody else is failing the test.

The difference is not the intelligence.

Somebody else is just bored.

Bring it on already.

There is no difference: in both the cases, from a little thing comes out a bigger thing.

Illuminating.

Give me the time to write it; if you keep trying to guess, I cannot write what the difference is.

At this hour, I see less light than 6 hours earlier; I don't see how this is illuminating.

If I saw the moon, it would be moonlighting.

7:28 PM

I'm still waiting.

If you don't keep me entertained, I will turn to MSO instead.

-4

Q: “Karma” Or “SO”?

Possible Duplicate: Does it feel lately like all questions have already been asked and answered and there is nothing more to do? I have read the article of http://slash7.com/2006/12/22/vampires/ and delighted.Many new things I have learnt from this article I am really thankful of Je...

I am very thankful we are not getting such questions on this site just yet.

Thank us.

@RegDwight What are you still waiting for?

12 mins ago, by kiamlaluno

By the way, what is the difference between a dog and a computer?

I could have used these jokes at Zelig, and I have instead told them to you. If that is not entertaining, I don't know what it would be.

9 mins ago, by kiamlaluno

There is no difference: in both the cases, from a little thing comes out a bigger thing.

So that was the joke?

Oh well. Thanks!

Hey! It took me two seconds to invent it. What did you think I was going to take off from the cylinder, a rabbit?

That is worth two presences at Zelig!

7:36 PM

Zelig must be excellent.

Heh. I remember that one.

To notice inchianare.

If you want to laugh about the dialects spoken in Puglia, this is the best.

Hahaha,

that is funny indeed.

Which part is better?

L'ove so de ier....

I guess there isn't a way to check the last votes done by a user.

7:56 PM

Votes are anonymous.

You can check yours.

No wait, disregard that. You can't even check yours.

Well, they are not so anonymous to moderators. (I am talking of DA.)

I figured as much.

Does that mean I don't speak any dialect of Puglia?

I don't have a fancy text-to-speech module installed, that would be Kosmonaut.

Do you mean Kosmonaut is a text-to-speech module?

7:59 PM

Oh, I just notice that I gotta leave for like 30 minutes.

Apr 12 at 16:33, by Kosmonaut

Yes, I use text-to-speech.

Seeyalaterz.

That is... uhmmm... weird. Does Kosmo use himself?

Shala-ah-loa.

?

What is going on here?

8:15 PM

Nothing!

I am just checking out some questions on DA; apart that, I am not doing anything.

If somebody's name is "Jeremy French", does he come from the same place where French fries come from?

A potato?

No, from France.

Do french fries really come from France?

In the case you replied "from France?" I would have said "no, from USA."

Does French kissing come from France too?

I think they came from Belgium/Holland

8:22 PM

Do you mean the French fries?

Yes

Does that mean French people don't eat French fries?

(What is the plural of French?)

French

Fries.

I have heard bad news about the weather in USA.

Yeah, well we didn't get much of that in New York.

Just a really stormy Saturday night.

8:27 PM

I thought they talked of tornados, but I must have misunderstood what they were saying. I was actually busy doing something else, when I heard the news in the background.

There were a lot of tornados.

Just not in New York.

Maybe 45 died? Something like that

That is not good.

I hope Washington D.C. was not hit.

I am less worried of LI, as few tornadoes hit there.

user image

At least that is what I am reported.

Wheeew! Washington D.C. is off.

That is if my geography works. Washington D.C. should be on the border between Virginia and Maryland.

right

8:34 PM

Sometimes I can remember something. :-)

Are the marked counties the ones with more damages?

The dots represent individual tornados.

What I don't know is what the difference between blue and red is.

There were around 250 tornados I think.

Cold tornadoes, and hot tornadoes?

@kiamlaluno Well, I don't have a hypothesis better than that :)

I could think they used the red for the more dangerous ones, but I think strange they are localized in specific zones.

It could be the blue is used for tornadoes in the central zone, but I don't understand why they would use a different color; it's clear in which place those tornadoes are.

It doesn't make sense that the most dangerous tornadoes ate the inner ones.

(If tornadoes always come from the ocean, that is true.)

The tornados occurred over three days.

Maybe each set is a different day.

8:43 PM

Wow.

In that case, they should have used three colors.

Yeah.

It seems they used the color to mean the danger, in someway. In the east coast, most of the spots are orange, but some other spots are red.

Although, looking at it, one is more orangey.

Red, blue, orange

Then the colors are four.

I see two different tonalities of blue.

I would almost say there are 3 tones of blue.

I think they are partially translucent

So overlapping tornados cause a darker color

8:46 PM

Yep.

And it makes the orange look a lot like the red

But now I am convinced that this represents the three days.

It could report the density of tornadoes.

@Kosmonaut It could be.

The question is now which color they used for the first day. Did they use blue?

Uhmmm... I need to BRB. :-)

It traveled from west to east

The storm

So west to east is the chronology.

I'm sorry to interrupt, but I have a(n?) NNS question.

@RegDwight — Shoot.

8:53 PM

Before I do, I am confused if ay an-an-as sounds better than an an-an-as.

Stoopid acronyms.

@RegDwight — Acronyms don't kill people. People kill people. Actually, the NRA kills people.

That's exactly the kind of answer I was looking for.

You never disappoint.

@RegDwight — I'm hear to hel — er, have a laugh at your expense.

I figured as many.

So now that you've lowered expectations, what's your question?

8:56 PM

First of all, my question is still whether "a NNS" rolls off the tongue easier.

When I try to pronounce "an NNS", I get lost.

Then again...

@kiamlaluno — You are correct. D.C. was unscathed, at least on that map.

If I think of it as "ananas", the problem disappears.

@RegDwight — Well, it's kind of prounced "enneness" ...

Me's talking about the article.

Oh. Easier then.

enEnnenEss

Don't make me get out my schwas

8:59 PM

That's what I had problems with.

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