English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

05:00

Right.

Or was it just an example?

WMD

Why don't you delete one of your comments above, then go and do some research.

Cerberus

The name of the P. himself is probably more popular: I think all its various spellings combined are the no. 1 name here.

@WMD Why not indeed?

WMD

God's blessings and peace be upon him.

Cerberus

This.

WMD

And I believe you'll find that Fatima was the name of one of the daughters of the Prophet (SAWS).

Cerberus

05:04

Ohhh...

stupid I

I knew there was something wrong.

WMD

You could delete that comment as well.

Cerberus

I think your comment is more conspicuous!

WMD

The point is, that asking an American "do you know Chuck" is much like asking an Amsterdamned "do you know Johannes".

Cerberus

Haha, well, I don't know anyone named Johannes that I can think of, actually.

Jan.

Many may be called Johannes officially on their birth certificates.

But it is never really used.

WMD

Isn't it usually shortened to Hans?

Cerberus

05:08

That is possible, yes.

WMD

And did you not read my story here about the Dutch man and the Canadian in the lift?

Cerberus

Hans is very common, but Jan even more so.

Hmm I don't think I have?

(Johan is also possible btw.)

WMD

Nov 25 '12 at 6:48, by David Wallace

So I was in a lift (or is it an elevator when it's in Canada?) with a Canadian guy and a Dutch guy. Mostly talking to the Dutch guy. When the Dutch guy got out of the lift, the Canadian guy said "is he actually royalty, or were you taking the piss?"

Cerberus

Ohh haha.

So his actual name is Johannes?

Perhaps I was the Dutch guy and Mahnax the Canadian.

ctype.h

What should be done with duplicate answers?

WMD

05:11

Their names were indeed Johannes and Paul. Maybe one of them was either you or Mahnax. Or both. I couldn't say.

ctype.h

0

A: Is there any difference in "doing / having / making a guest spot"?

Some suggestions: A. Jackson was a fan of Matt Groening, who created ["Family Guy"(?)], so he called him one night to offer Groening a guest spot on his show. B. Who should be given a guest spot on TV shows? C. That guy will grace us with his presence in a guest spot on our show...

Cerberus

@WMD OK interesting. I will stay mum on this topic.

@ctype.h Vote to close the newer one, unless it is already quite old?

WMD

Ignore them both.

ctype.h

@Cerberus They are answers, not questions.

Cerberus

Ohh sorry.

WMD

05:14

Or upvote the better one and ignore the other.

Cerberus

Yeah, I would just let them be.

WMD

It happens frequently. It's not really a bad thing.

Cerberus

Yeah, vote whichever one is better up, if there is any difference at all.

ctype.h

They are completely identical.

WMD

It's sometimes good for the asker (and subsequent people with the same question) to see that more than one person believes the same thing.

Remember that all the IP belongs to SE, so it's not plagiarism.

ctype.h

05:16

@WMD I thought users were supposed to upvote good answers, not copy them.

WMD

Indeed, they are. But there are more serious crimes than this afoot. There are 7 billion people in the world. SE cannot police all of them.

Cerberus

That is true...bur I suppose it won't hurt to vote to delete the later answer if there is a significant time between them?

WMD

For myself, whenever I post an answer, then see that somebody else posted an almost-identical answer a few seconds before mine was completed, I delete mine. But I don't expect others to behave similarly. C'est la vie.

Cerberus

@ctype.h Ahh yes, I see it now, a blatant copy-paste. I'm voting to delete: this is probably some spammer or sock puppet trying to gain some reps.

WMD

How does one vote to delete an answer? All you can do is downvote it, which in this case is NOT appropriate.

Cerberus

05:20

I can't either.

I have downvoted and flagged it.

I think you can only vote to delete answer after some time?

WMD

Don't downvote it. That indicates that it's wrong.

Flag it if you feel you must.

01100001

A Small Question regarding formatting a title properly: Disable Feeds (Make 'em Inaccessible) In WordPress -- what should the 'case' of 'em be? 'Em or 'EM or the way it is?

Cerberus

@WMD I don't know...

WMD

@Cerberus - nice to see you. I must pray, then buy food for the starving masses who occupy my flat. I will see you another time, God willing.

01100001

@WMD Downvote = not an answer, wrong answer or not a useful answer

Cerberus

05:22

@01100001 Hmm difficult question. I would say 'Em, but I'm not sure.

WMD

If two things are identical, how can one be useful and not the other?

Cerberus

@WMD Oh, which masses?

WMD

Or one wrong and not the other?

Cerberus

Well, take care and until next time!

@WMD Yeah, I know...but still...

WMD

@Cerberus Just me. It was irony.

01100001

05:23

@Cerberus would this be okay to ask it on the main site?

Cerberus

Ohh haha.

@01100001 Absolutely!

WMD

You DO know I live alone, right, Cerberus?

Cerberus

If you ask me, it is a fine question.

@WMD I was wondering already who it might be...an army of voracious cats?

WMD

I would write 'em. Actually, I wouldn't. I would never write 'em or 'Em or 'EM.

Cerberus

There may be an appropriate context for it.

WMD

05:24

@Cerberus You know I love to feed the cats who come to my door.

Cerberus

I know they are your favourite animals.

WMD

Actually, Cerberus, three-headed dogs are my favourite animals.

Cerberus

Just as I love the pigeons, seagulls, and coots here.

WMD

What's a koot?

Cerberus

@WMD Yay!!

WMD

05:25

Oh, a coot. Why didn't you say so?

01100001

It's the title for a note on my personal blog, but still I thought it'd be worth knowing

Cerberus

Sorry, I had no idea how it was spelled.

A note?

01100001

@Cerberus Confused as to how I should frame the question properly

@Cerberus Yes, I make notes of stuff I learn (code and just about everything)

Cerberus

@01100001 "Is there a correct or conventional way to capitalize words in titles that are apocopated at the beginning?", or something like that. Then give a few examples.

01100001

@Cerberus thank you very much!

WMD

05:28

Once more, you have taught me a new word. Thank you, my friend.

Cerberus

Make the title of the question something like Title case: 'em or 'Em?

01100001

ok

WMD

See if you can start an argument over whether the other words in the title should be capitalised or not.

Cerberus

@WMD I sort of made it up, assuming it should exist.

WMD

It does indeed exist, and was the perfect word for the context in which you used it.

Cerberus

05:29

@WMD Haha in the question's title?

01100001

@WMD but that could get my question closed.

Cerberus

That would be perfect.

WMD

I prefer "Title case: 'em or 'Em" over "Title Case: 'Em Or 'em".

Cerberus

Grrrr!

Perhaps you should ask that first in a separate question. But then how to phrase that question?

Perhaps ask another question first...

A.i.

WMD

And I prefer "Make them inaccessible" over "Make Them Inaccessible".

Cerberus

05:31

And I prefer <an exact copy of your answer>.

WMD

@Cerberus Don't let your Gödel be a hurdle.

01100001

@WMD I can certainly write it the way you said. But I thought the other representation is worth knowing.

Cerberus

Heh.

WMD

Anyway, I as I said earlier, I have other things I must do this evening. Goede nacht, mijn vriend.

Cerberus

Bai!

01100001

05:34

bye!

01100001

05:46

@Cerberus Just posted the question. Please take a look when you get time. Any suggestions are welcome.

Cerberus

@01100001 Perfect!

01100001

thanks to you!

Cerberus

My guess is that some people will recommend 'em and others 'Em, but it will be interesting to see what they come up with.

'EM doesn't really make sense.

01100001

Yeah, it's the reasoning that matters.

@Cerberus Hmm... shall I remove it?

Cerberus

That is your choice!

01100001

05:52

ok, I'll remove it.

Cerberus

If you think someone can tell you something new about whether or not 'EM would be appropriate, then leave it in.

01100001

ok

Sudhir

08:24

Hi @AndrewLeach

Robusto

12:13

OK, wake up and entertain me. I am currently pianoless and I need something else to do.

tchrist

12:37

What happened to your piano? Are you travelling?

user19161

@Robusto What entertainment do you want? Pineapples?

user19161

@tchrist The piano became a forte.

Robusto

@tchrist No. Just playing, as usual, and the D4 went down and didn't come up. So I took it apart and found the broken hammer. I found it's pretty much impossible to play anything useful without a D4 key.

user19161

@Robusto Try another octave then.

Robusto

@JasperLoy Have you ever played the piano?

user19161

12:43

@Robusto No, I am talking rubbish as usual, just for your entertainment.

Robusto

What makes you think I am entertained by rubbish?

user19161

OK, I will shut up then, like Donny.

tchrist

That’s teach you for taking the Hammerklavier so seriously.

Robusto

I was playing Bach! Two-part invention in d-minor.

tchrist

That’s nice. And shouldn’t be pounding your hammer into brokenness. Hm.

Robusto

12:48

10 hours ago, by Robusto

Wah! I just broke the D4 key's hammer on my digital piano. I figured out how to replace it and ordered the replacement (and a few spares), but no piano playing for me for a few days. Weh!

user19161

Actually, I can play Twinkle Twinkle Little Stars.

tchrist

Oh. It’s digital. Um, and it has hammers?

Robusto

Yeah. Roland FP-1. Feels like a real grand-piano action.

►

YouTube helped.

tchrist

The Am 2p invention was one of the first ones I memorized as a kid.

And then it ended up getting used in a million TV commercials decades later.

Ug.

You have to get into some pretty dark keys to avoid D natural in the key signature.

Well, or to have a D flat or sharp there, I should say.

Robusto

Sooner or later, just about every piece gets around to D4.

tchrist

13:02

The E♯ prelude from WTC2 doesn’t.

However, it has a C double sharp. Never mind. :(

Found one.

The B♯ prelude from book 2 has no D4. Its only C double-sharps are up an octave.

Who the hell wants to play in seven sharps, though? :)

Robusto

Like I said. Maybe if it was a D7 I wouldn't mind. But that one would never, ever get enough action to get broken.

tchrist

No joy in the flat keys, either.

They all have accidentals leading to D4.

Robusto

Yup.

tchrist

I’m afraid you’re stuck with B♯ BWV 872 then. But only the Prelude. The Fugue has accidentals. Sorry.

And I know better than to look and the 2- and 3-part inventions.

They don’t use such exotic keys.

You might as well have lost middle C.

Robusto

To sum up: I'm fucked until the replacement hammer gets here.

Actually, I bet middle C gets used less than D4. Someone should run a statistical analysis.

tchrist

13:14

On my piano, sure, but I use D major scales for practice, not C major.

Typically.

Robusto

@tchrist If you're really practicing, you gotta use 'em all. Didn't you ever have to run the Hanon gantlet?

tchrist

Yes.

And that certainly uses plenty of C, I know.

I like E♭ and A♭for practicing, too. I don’t really practice the scales with more than four accidentals.

We don’t play pentatonic scales. :)

Robusto

I don't run scales and arpeggios anymore. I just play the music. Not because my technique is perfect, but because I'm never going to get perfect technique anyway, and practicing that shit is boring.

tchrist

Isn’t it? I quit Hanon long ago. I do warm up with scales sometimes.

Robusto

I'm especially not going to get perfect technique if I have to bore myself shitless for an hour every day before I even get to play real music.

I did that shit in my twenties. I've earned an exemption by now, surely.

tchrist

13:21

Oh and 872 is in C♯ major. I’m counting wrong. Last sharp (ti) is still B♯ so key is C♯. Not that that changes anything.

It can be ok, but well, there are more interesting pieces out there.

Plus the rush at the end really asks you to go on the Fugue, and you can’t.

01100001

Hmm... this question is going nowhere :-/

tchrist

Where are the janitors? Somebody needs to keep their eye out for them.

I know, I know: Juvenal thought, that one.

Robusto

@61: No, it's not the length of the word that is significant, it's its part of speech. You can read about what "most" style guides say at this web page, and Grammar Girl writes about this as well. — J.R. 3 hours ago

Immediate disqualification for mention of Grammar Girl.

tchrist

Yeah.

Give 'em Hell, Harry!

Give 'em Hell, Harry! is a biographical play and 1975 film, written by playwright Samuel Gallu. Both the play and film are a one-man show about former President of the United States Harry S. Truman. Give 'em Hell, Harry! stars James Whitmore and was directed by Steve Binder and Peter H. Hunt. The title comes from an incident that took place during the 1948 Presidential election campaign. Whilst in Harrisburg, Illinois, Truman delivered a speech attacking the Republicans. During the speech a supporter yelled out "Give 'em Hell, Harry!". Truman replied, "I don't give them Hell. I just tel...

01100001

@tchrist Good one.

tchrist

13:33

The rock band My Chemical Romance also has a song entitled “Give ’em Hell, Kid”.

I could not get it to link. Hm.

Robusto

> America might be the greatest country in the world, but you know what? That's like being the prettiest Denny's waitress. Just 'cuz you're the best, that doesn't necessarily make you good. — Doug Stanhope

tchrist

Everyone’s country is the greatest. I heard a story on NPR yesterdayishly about a recently deceased Canadian musician who called Canada the greatest country on earth.

01100001

To each his own :P

@tchrist Oh, you posted an answer

tchrist

Did.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:10

So dan bloom is back, at least in my inbox

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:25

Robusto

14:35

Who the hell is Dan Bloom?

yesterday, by Robusto

tchrist

15:15

Its very argent to know for my exam so give me a structure someone. — Zafor Ahmed 10 mins ago

Et bien, combien de argent?

And whose argent are we talking about here? $? £? €? ¥?

When I was a lad, asking someone else for the answer to an exam question was something called “cheating”. Apparently, this word is no longer used, nor the concept recognized.

Noah

15:40

Hi

@tchrist What's the difference between he asked me to speak with you vs. he told me to speak with you in formal contexts?

Basically asking about the told vs. ask part.

tchrist

Requested vs directed.

Noah

told=requested

tchrist

No.

Noah

asked=directed?

tchrist

asked = requested

told = directed

Noah

15:42

which one is better.

tchrist

That question is unanswerable.

They mean different things.

Noah

Yeah, I know.

tchrist

What is the difference between a polite request and a command?

Noah

Okay, a freind has asked me to talk to someone.

tchrist

At the end of the day, perhaps little, but to the person on the receiving end, quite a bit of kindness.

Noah

15:43

do you think I should use a friend has told me to talk to someoen

tchrist

I don’t know.

They might have told you that they think you ought to talk to somebody.

You simply cannot get an answer to this without relating the entire tale.

Noah

No, it's about requesting a meeting.

Okay, here is how it goes

tchrist

Was he polite?

If he was polite, then he asked you.

If it was not polite, then he told you.

Noah

I have a frieind who knows someone at a startup. And he asked me to send an email to a person in that startup whom she knows.

tchrist

Noah, would you please send mail to John about this?

That’s ask.

Noah, shoot a piece of mail over to John about this.

That’s tell.

Noah

15:48

Well, he told me over the phone.

And I am looking for a job with this startup.

?

tchrist

If you cannot see any difference between being asked to do something and being told to do it, then no one else will be able to, either.

Noah

Okay.

I can discern the difference between the two. But I dont know which one to use in my email to this guy.

Since this is my first email, i want to sound as professional as possible.

So here is what I have in mind.

tchrist

Perhaps she suggested that you might contact that person.

Tshepang

hi @tchrist; how is this a dupe english.stackexchange.com/questions/106770/…

Noah

Maybe. But she met with him 2 days ago. She talked with him about me. And he asked her to tell me that I send him a copy of my resume.

tchrist

15:54

Because it is asking the difference between "I have no bananas" and "I haven’t any bananas".

"I haven’t any idea" = "I’ve no idea”

Noah

@tchrist

Tshepang

is "have" the same type of word as "enable"

tchrist

What?

Noah

@tchrist Maybe. But she met with him 2 days ago. She talked with him about me. And he asked her to tell me that I send him a copy of my resume.

tchrist

He asked her to tell you to send him your résumé?

Noah

15:56

Do you think suggestion is still a better option?

tchrist

I don’t know.

Noah

@tchrist Yeah.

tchrist

I fail to understand the question.

Tshepang

@tchrist mine?

Noah

Let me put it this way. Say you are the hiring dude. I am the one looking for a job. And Reg is the one who spoke with you about me. You tell Reg that I send you my resume.

tchrist

15:59

The last sentence doesn’t parse.

And I do not know what it should be instead.

Oh, maybe you want a modal there.

I tell Reg that you ought to send me your résumé?

Is that what you meant?

Noah

Not ought to. But simply ask him.

tchrist

Why is this so hard? :(

What do you think ought means?

It is much weaker than must, weaker even than should.

I tell Reg that you should send me your résumé?

I don’t understand.

Noah

So I write. Hey, @tchrist. I am Noah and and one of my friends, Reg, told me to send yoou a copy of my resume about a possible opening with your organization.

tchrist

I’m even on my third cup of coffee, and I still don’t understand.

Noah

Did you read my email?

tchrist

16:04

@Noah That sounds fine.

Did you send me mail?

Noah

No, the one I just posted here.

tchrist

pouts

Noah

@tchrist any improvemnets? modifications?

tchrist

@Noah Spell you correctly? :)

Noah

@tchrist What else?

tchrist

16:05

No, it’s fine.

Noah

Okay, thanks.

tchrist

@Noah Spell résumé correctly? :)

I’m just kidding about all this.

Noah

Okay. Will ask my MS Word spell checker to go through it.

tchrist

I don’t use Microsoft, so I have no idea. I understand it is not very good.

Noah

I dont use it either. I(we) have an old family iMac. It has MS Office installed so I am kind of forced to use it.

tchrist

16:27

To send mail?

I thought Macs had Open Office.

Or something like that.

I hate all those programs myself.

Everything is tedious to impossible.

Noah

No, it doesnt. It has Apple Mail. But usually when I write documents, I compose them in MS Word. Apple Mail is just an email client. The reason why I mentioned MS Office was because I dont know if Apple has a builtin spellcheker.

My sister has a macbook. She has iWork on there. I love pages, it seems to be way better than Ms word.

Sucks to not have your own computer.

Once I get this job. I might be able to get my own computer.

I am not good at saving.

So that sucks, too.

MartyIX

Hi, is there a term for a subject that you choose from a predefined set of subjects? I would not call it "optional subject".

Thank you! ;)

Noah

I read that Apple launched iBookstore in Japan. I just wonder if anyone uses that.

elective subject

chosen subject

MartyIX

I'll check the meaning. Thanks for a suggestion!

Noah

I am not sure what you have in mind, but these are the words the mean what you say.

You are welcome @MartyIX

MartyIX

16:40

Well, you can have an optional subject - that is: you can choose if you study the subject or not.

And there is another variant: You can choose between (for example) English and Spanish. The choice is up to you but you have to choose one of them and you can't choose (let's say) mathematics.

And I'm interested in the second variant :)

answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081107191956AAzQBH2 aha!

I used the adjective optional incorrectly.. :|

Zachiel

16:55

@JasperLoy While I actually misspelled mystery (my fault), insist was just a typo. Thank you anyways.

tchrist

> The most remarkable feature of this vb., besides its many idiomatic and phrasal uses, is its employment as a regular auxiliary of the future tense, which goes back to the OE. period, and may be paralleled in other Germanic languages, e.g. MHG.

Cerberus

Hello!

tchrist

17:19

Hiya

Cerberus

What's going on in here?

tchrist

Nothing.

Rob was by early on. He has a dead key on his piano, one it’s nearly impossible to play anything much without.

And the quality of questions on the main site continues to suck.

And Norton has asked the same question five times now.

I’m afraid to run my scoring-program on the newest 50 questions.

Sudhir

Hi @Cerberus

Could you please clear my doubt

I only answered four questions in my exam.
I answered only four question in my exam.

Is there any subtle difference in the semantics?

@tchrist: You can share your view.

Cerberus

@tchrist Just pick whichever questions you do like, and write an elaborate answer?

tchrist

17:34

I did that already.

Cerberus

@Sudhir It's very subtle.

tchrist

I do it once or twice a day, usually.

Sudhir

What's the difference?

Cerberus

In the first sentence, only applies to the entire sentence. In the second, it applies to "four questions" specifically. In other cases, the difference might matter, but in your example they are as good as equivalent.

Sudhir

@Cerberus I'm very weak in grammar that's why I asked.

Cerberus

17:36

OK.

Have you picked up an introductory grammar book yet?

Sudhir

No

I didn't get it.

So you have?

In my country if you need a good job you should master English.

Though its not an official language.

@Cerberus: Tell

@Cerberus:Busy with your work?

@Cerberus: I never seen/saw such an amazing video?

@tchrist:You can help

Cerberus

17:56

I have never seen.

I think Americans sometimes also use I never saw.

Sudhir

thanks

Cerberus

But I have never seen is OK everywhere.

tchrist

No.

We don’t.

Cerberus

Not you.

tchrist

I have a passport.

Cerberus

17:57

Does it say "Anglo-Saxon"?

tchrist

You are thinking of “I just ate” vs “I’ve just eaten.”

I’ve never seen anyone say “I never saw that before.” It sounds wrong.

I’ve heard first-language-German speakers use it in halting English, though.

Sudhir

@tchrist: “I never saw that before.”is wrong?

Cerberus

I wouldn't use it, is all I know.

Sudhir

Then what you'll use?

Cerberus

7 mins ago, by Cerberus

I have never seen.

tchrist

18:10

I hadn’t thought you were German, but thanks for the proof.

Cerberus

Hmm?

We are Frankish and Saxon and Frisian and a couple other Germanic tribes all mixed up.

tchrist

What, no teasing in this chat? Since when?

Do we really need this: After 3D, here comes 4K Home entertainment: A new television standard called Ultra HD is four times sharper than today’s best HDTVs. But providing content in this new format poses daunting technical challenges. And does anyone really need it anyway?

Considering that people don’t even sit close enough to the screen to see the little 1920 x 1080 shots.

Cerberus

18:25

@tchrist Certainly and emphatically not.

It is like the golden HDMI cables I mentioned.

Mitja

19:20

Would Star Trek ship occupants develop their own accent because of long-term isolation?

Jez

@Mitja yis keptin

Andrew Leach

@Mitja Not necessarily. The USA has a variety of accents, presumably all developing from the original Pilgrim Fathers' accent which was the English of the time. However the residents of the Falkland Islands and even Gibraltar still all sound remarkably English.

It may be because inhabitants of those two places want to sound English, whereas Americans are less concerned about that. But presumably Star Trek voyagers would want to retain that linguistic link with home?

Cerberus

20:14

@AndrewLeach I rather think it is because more people emigrated to America before the arrhotification of England, compared to other colonies.

Combined with less British control later on from a continuous stream of new officials sent from England.

tchrist

@Cerberus You focus too much on the R. There are rhotic speakers in Britain.

Just because they get spat upon by the bluenoses doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

The TRAP–BATH split is also a factor, as is the repatterning of stress and wholesale deletion of syllables.

Not to mention all the differences in vocabulary and idioms.

Cerberus

20:31

I think the same may apply for the accent in general, not just the r.

tchrist

Yes, probably.

@AndrewLeach I’m sure that @Mitch would be quick to tell you that he knows people who think that an English accent annoys certain Americans, because they take it as a sign that somebody’s gettin’ all uppity and puttin’ on airs. For my part, I’ve never understood why they re-dub documentaries and audio books from the UK with American voices, as though to somehow make them more attractive to buyers.

Like, did we really need to replace David Attenborough with Oprah Winfrey — or with anyone, for that matter? And what’s so wrong with Stephen Fry’s Harry Potter readings that they need to be re-recorded?

I don’t understand any of that.

Cerberus

21:02

???

Why on earth would they do that?

Is there a chance that it would be hard to understand for some people?

Even if so, then just subtitle it.

tchrist

21:51

I told you: I do not understand.

tchrist

23:41

The Dragon speaks:

-1

A: Is “An other-other woman (person / thing)” a popular English phrase?

Why are we burning up brain cells trying to create crippled expressions (other other-woman, or other-other woman); which was spawned as a spoken phrase, when a decent education in English grammar, a passing ability to read a dictionary and a reasonable command of the language would have given us ...

chatkillah

@JasperLoy I can't change for five days.

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…