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7:00 PM
@Monica More likely to be an attributive noun: the garage roof.
 
I am asking because once I wrote the attic's door or something like that
and I was tolod that it was wrong
 
@MετάEd Ok fine, so that’s digital speech rather than oral speech.
@Monica Oh.
 
@Monica The attic door.
 
Well, it is not wrong.
 
because the attic can't own anything
 
7:00 PM
By the way, my “oral speech” is the calque of Russian “устная речь”.
 
@Monica That is a complete misunderstanding of the English possessive.
 
I see now
 
We could call it genitive, but then you’d have people who require that it be used only when there are genitalia involved.
This is another ELU FAQ.
10
Q: Is using the possessive 's correct in "the car's antenna"?

StecyI know that to mark possession of an item you can use 's like in the following example: The user's password shall not be blank. However, is it correct to use the following: The car's antenna is embedded in the windshield. I seem to remember that possession must only be used for people...

 
@tchrist "We certainly don't grab for genitive singulars". No more we do, brother. Amen.
@tchrist Of the fingers? Well, you can say that rhetorically, but in actuality sign language is not limited to the fingers.
 
That sort of thing gets you your hand demanumitted in Arabic countries.
 
7:06 PM
@tchrist, how do you enter typography? I use Birman’s layout (using right Alt key), but the SE chat does not allow me to put in left curly (Alt + K). Other stuff works.
 
@theUg What do you mean?
 
How do you exactly pronounce Ulysses’ and Eratosthenes’?
 
I enter typography by starting with the t, then the y, moving briskly along to the p, and so and so forth till the end.
@Monica Identically to their nominatives.
 
@tchrist Do you just use Mac’s built-in combinations?
@tchrist ha-ha, you, sir, are a comedian.
 
@theUg Sometimes, but that really only works well on ISO-8859-15 type stuff.
Usually I employ murine snarf-n-barf.
 
7:08 PM
I see. Thanks.
I am going to read the two posts
Goodbye
 
Basically, if your Unicode code point had a distinct MacRoman representation, it is easy to use the shortcut, and I usually do. But for others, well, use the mouse.
Monica!
I am sorry if I was too brisk or brusque.
I will try to be nicer to you.
 
@tchrist I tried to look up what that be, and do not grasp it completely.
 
You should have tried harder
:D
 
@theUg You’ll likely get carpal tunnel syndrome if you make a habit of it.
Murine = mousey
Snarf-n-barf = cut&paste
 
Is there any specific use for Alt + K combo in SE chat? Most of my other stuff works:
 
7:10 PM
Well, yank&put, actually.
@theUg Of course.
 
€®™ѣѵіѳ′≈§°£„”‘’ש↓−«»…
¹²³$‰↑∞←→—≠
 
Codepoint U+02DA ‹˚› \N{RING ABOVE} is a symbol though, and not a combining diacritic.
 
½⅓〈〉
 
Yes.
Wait, I know what you need. Jussaminit.
 
° is just a degree symbol, like 12°C
 
7:13 PM
No, U+00B0 is DEGREE SIGN. U+02DA is RING ABOVE.
 
@tchrist Typo: "The authors at the cited reference point out the follwoing:"
 
@theUG For IPA, you might consider using this for convenience.
Otherwise, type "sudo perl -MCPAN -e 'install Unicode::Tussle'" and be happy.
Hm, if that's the spelling. Must check.
It is.
Once you install that bundle, you get lotsa super-incredible little command-line tools for Unicode bliss.
 
One is tempted to invent an excuse to write Unicode::Tussle::Bug.
Off topic:
6
Q: Is it always appropriate to reciprocate when asked "How are you?"

mrmThis question is related to When someone asks how are you, are you supposed to answer, "Good," or "Fine," and ask back?. There, the answer by z7sg Ѫ claims it is sometimes appropriate not to reciprocate when asked "How are you?". I guess the following situation would fall under the category of "b...

Attracting opinions. (Attractive nuisance.)
 
Aye.
 
@tchrist Thanks, I’ll try.
 
7:23 PM
And déjà répondu, I think.
 
And, what is wrong with terminal ellipsis?
 
@theUg It’ll kill ya.
 
I think, if one’s thought trails off…
 
That should be four.
If one’s thoughts trail off. . . .
 
…it is perfectly normal to finish it with an ellipsis.
 
7:24 PM
No, it isn’t.
It is unusual.
 
hy not?
 
Look at a printed book, not an internet chat session. It is rare.
 
Besides, you just ended the sentence with fourperiod marks. Not kosher at all.
 
It must be four.
Three is wrong.
Because the ellipsis does not mean you can dispense with the period.
 
Ellipsis is not the same as three period marks. Period mark is a period mark.
 
7:26 PM
This is . . . a misunderstanding.
Oh, cut it out.
 
… … …
 
Nope.
 
... ... ...
… ... …
 
Read Bringhurst.
The NFKD form of U+2026 HORIZONTAL ELLIPSIS is indeed three instances of U+002E FULL STOP. And for good reason.
The font’s ellipsis usually looks like crap. Including here.
Most typesetters prefer to set their own.
3
A: Space before three dots?

tchristYes, you do put a space in front of three of them, but not in front of four of them. The open questions are whether to use three or four, and whether to put spaces not just fore or aft, but between them. The short answers to those two questions are respectively that you use four without a l...

vide infra
 
What about this my comment:
> Well, I would like to see a style guide about that. Ussing ellipsis in conjunction with exclamation point is preposterous in principle, as ellipsis implies waffling, where is exclamation is definitive.
whereas
 
7:30 PM
@theUg Read Bringhurst. Again.
 
What’s the thin space in Uni again?
I don’t think I have it my layout. I only have no-breaking space
Oh, it’s there, me bad.
He notes that in French it is okay, maybe that is where the Russian gets it.
 
U+2004  -- THREE-PER-EM SPACE
U+2005  -- FOUR-PER-EM SPACE
U+2006  -- SIX-PER-EM SPACE
U+2007  -- FIGURE SPACE
U+2008  -- PUNCTUATION SPACE
U+2009  -- THIN SPACE
U+200A  -- HAIR SPACE
--- 00A0 NO-BREAK SPACE
 
After all, we use same quotes, just without spaces around them: «something».
 
--- 202F        NARROW NO-BREAK SPACE
 
Damn, that is too many spaces even for my liking.
I already go through pains using figure dash.
 
7:34 PM
@theUg You feel you need your space, just not that much space?
 
macbook# unichars '\p{space}' | wc -l
      26
 
@MετάEd Precisely.
 
macbook# unichars '\p{horiz_space}' | wc -l
      19
macbook# unichars -gs '\p{horiz_space}'
U+0009  -- GC=Cc SC=Common       CHARACTER TABULATION
U+0020  -- GC=Zs SC=Common       SPACE
U+00A0  -- GC=Zs SC=Common       NO-BREAK SPACE
U+1680  -- GC=Zs SC=Ogham        OGHAM SPACE MARK
U+180E  -- GC=Zs SC=Mongolian    MONGOLIAN VOWEL SEPARATOR
U+2000  -- GC=Zs SC=Common       EN QUAD
U+2001  -- GC=Zs SC=Common       EM QUAD
U+2002  -- GC=Zs SC=Common       EN SPACE
U+2003  -- GC=Zs SC=Common       EM SPACE
U+2004  -- GC=Zs SC=Common       THREE-PER-EM SPACE
Note that \p{horiz_space} can be abbreviated as simply \h in Perl regexes as of v5.10; its complement is of course \H for any code point not having that property. There is also \v for \p{vert_space} and its complement, \V.
There is also the variable-width abbreviation \R, which stands for \r\n|\v.
So that it gets the Microsoft linebreak grapheme cluster.
 
I still stand by my statement that to put exclamation point with ellipsis is stupid.
The whole point of terminal ellipsis, as that the sentence does not complete.
 
What, you’re not really. . . !
 
7:40 PM
Like I said, stupid.
 
What shall we. . . ?
 
you eather Exclaim, or you are waffling.
QM is legit.
 
I still think ellipses are rare in actual writing. I don’t count informal barbarian scribbles on the Internet.
 
damn my spelcheck is braken
I mentioned before, in Russian, and, apparently, in French, the terminal ellipsis is cool. Let me find you a classic example, if I can.
 
@theUg What, you need LANG=cs-CZ perhaps?
@theUg Si je ne me confonde pas, nous parlions anglais ici.
But by all means, please yourself. :)
 
7:45 PM
Je ne parlais Frances.
 
Francés? Prefieres francés? ¡Muy bien!
English used “French spacing” some no small number of centuries ago.
 
Solo malas palabras en Español, pero mas de Frances.
I know, it’s terrible, but I’m trying.
 
palabrotas are swear words, kinda.
Hm, I wonder at the etymon there.
Even the very best of judges are always trying.
 
Even if it is Clarence Thomas?
 
@theUg For him I have some choice palabrotas, I assure you.
 
7:49 PM
Oh noes, Mongolians use four-dot ellipsis! ᠁
 
The word "mynstrual" has apparently gained currency in some circles despite the fact that it derives from the ancient word "menses" (moon, month). We shall have to rename the moon.
 
He could not even complete the sentence “Oh no, you di’nt…”
 
Darn it, the RAE has no etymology for palabrotas. I wonder why. They just says it is some Dicho ofensivo, indecente o grosero. So some saying that is offensive, indecent, or gross.
@theUg That would be wrong.
It lacks a period.
And shouldn’t that be di’n’t?
 
Actually, here you are correct, since that was a quote.
 
I dunno. Eye dialect is not something I’m good at.
 
7:51 PM
He could not even complete the sentence “Oh no, you di’nt…”.
 
I think we put that particular period inside the quotes no matter which side of the Atlantic — or of reason — you sit on.
And it should be spaced, damn it.
 
I struggled with di’nt, and came up with it right now. If your version is literary, I am happy to oblige.
 
Looks like rabbit poo otherwise.
 
Not rabbit, but t’s poo.
 
Eye-dialect and literary seem oppositional, pace Mark Twain.
 
7:53 PM
Literature still records the dialects.
 
Again, I’m really bad with them.
I just don’t think that way because these are purely allophonic affects that don’t even register on my consciousness when they’re mine own.
Like dint.
 
"Dint" can't be spelled that way because it has two syllables.
Oh no you di-n't!
 
Ah, but that’s the issue: it comes out as a single syllable in some dialects.
Doesn’t it?
Or is that a glottal stop separating two syllables?
Maybe so.
 
That's du-n't, i-n't?
 
I don’t think the i reduces that far.
 
7:55 PM
It my-n't.
 
Mightn’t.
But yeah, that t swallows into a glottal.
Hm, I need something less active in my voice there.
 
By the way, I cannot remember where I picked up innit
 
@tchrist Try the genitive.
 
It’s common UK eye-dialect.
 
Oh, yes, I got it from Lonely Planet book.
I use it a lot, but that makes me pretentious, innit?
 
7:58 PM
Hm, I see they’re getting our hopes up again. Probably to be dashed, but so it goes.
 
It’s Lord of the Rings with tits galore. © KoA.
 
Okay, now I need to take a break and wash out my head.
Game of Thrones. I don't know what that is.
Probably just as well.
 
> Дубровский молчал… Вдруг он поднял голову, глаза его засверкали, он топнул ногою, оттолкнул секретаря…
(А. С. Пушкин «Дубровский»).
And the leading ellipsis, translated Carrol:
> Мышь не удостоила его ответом и торопливо продолжала: «…Нашёл это благоразумным и решил вместе с Эдгаром Зтелингом отправиться к Вильгельму и предложить ему корону»
And I think, in Russian question ends with this: ?..
 
The ellipsis . . . at least as as we know it . . . has been forever spoiled by the children of a lesser god . . . unlettered . . . text. . .speaking barbarians . . . who have replaced all possible punctuation marks with ellipses. . . . It is enough to make you puke. . . doncha agree. . . .
 
It looks better in proper typography, as it looks like three dots with the first one capped with a question ыйгшппдую
 
8:10 PM
@tchrist I'm a member of a forum where one member persistently posts like that. It's practically illegible. Or not easily understood, anyway.
 
It’s perverse. Twisted. Asquerous. Opprobrious.
Disgusting.
 
Whack, may I add?..
 
@theUg Apparently in ELU it's ... thwack, and usually in italics.
 
@AndrewLeach Link? I are curious.
 
Hang on...
 
8:20 PM
Oh, by the way, look: SE abridges external links with a terminal ellipsis…
 
My spelchek is still broaken today.
What’s that about puns?
Is there Punopticon of sorts, so to speak?
Oh, I should have added this to the above question: ⸮
 
@theUg What is ⸮ supposed to be? Not all of us handle every Unicode glyph.
 
Ironic sign. :)
Although in the written English language there is no standard way to denote irony or sarcasm, several forms of punctuation have been proposed. Among the oldest and frequently attested are the percontation point invented by English printer Henry Denham in the 1580s, and the irony mark, used by Marcellin Jobard in an article dated June 11th, 1841 and commented in a 1842 report. It was furthered by French poet Alcanter de Brahm in the 19th century. Both of these marks were represented visually by a backwards question mark, ⸮ (in Unicode: ). Using LaTeX, one can display it by including the ...
 
> Both of these marks were represented visually by a backwards question mark, ⸮ (in Unicode: ).
@theUg Hmm. It even shows a square in Safari on my iPad.
 
8:39 PM
Mac is an inferiour technology. :D
What about interrobang?
 
@theUg OK on both.
 
    ‭ ⸮  2E2E       REVERSED QUESTION MARK
            = punctus percontativus
            x (question mark - 003F)
            x (inverted question mark - 00BF)
            x (arabic question mark - 061F)
    ‭ ‽  203D       INTERROBANG
        x (exclamation mark - 0021)
        x (question mark - 003F)
        x (inverted interrobang - 2E18)
‭ ⸘  2E18       INVERTED INTERROBANG
        = gnaborretni
        x (interrobang - 203D)
‭ ⁇  2047       DOUBLE QUESTION MARK
        # 003F 003F
‭ ⁈  2048       QUESTION EXCLAMATION MARK
 
@tchrist Only interrobang appears on both; 2049 appears on the iPad, in red. The other four appear on neither Windows nor iPad.
 
Dratted toys.
And Microsoft is ipso facto idiotic. We knew that. It can’t do fonts to save its butt.
The iDick-Tracy toys are a different matter.
 
@tchrist Toys? Toys?!
The iPad displays these glyphs better than my MG. Now that is a toy.
 
8:54 PM
𝑇𝑜𝑦𝑠‼
 
Um...
𝑇𝑜𝑦𝑠‼
 
That’s what I said.
 
Oh. Jolly good. The Babel Fish worked, then.
 
Ooh. Copies square to clipboard
It appears that the iPad's version of Verdana is as deficient as that in my version of Windows.
 
8:58 PM
That is not the bug.
The bug is that it has a fucked up font-substitution policy; to wit, none whatsoever.
Whereas Safari knows to sub in any font it can find that has a glyph for that code point defined. It is not restricted to monofont stupidity.
Just because we are using Verdana does not mean that software should give up if Verdana lacks a certain code point. That is just super-stupid, because no font has all possible code points.
 
Well I would have thought that Chrome would have done something off its own bat, at least. It doesn't.
 
Both Opera and Safari do the right thing here, so I am betting it is not the browser.
I could check Chrome, I suppose, but I haven't fired it up in forever.
 
Safari on the iPad couldn't cope with your "Toys". That got squares.
 
I think the Mac simply has a font-sub rule and other stuff is broken because it has none at all.
Right, it is the Mac, not Safari.
It’s like Terminal windows.
It uses whatever font it needs to.
This is the only sane policy.
Squares are just broken.
I repeat: No font has all code points.
 
So you do need a selection of fonts which do cover all code points.
*does
 
9:03 PM
Well.
All the ones that I use, at least.
And I use quite a few.
 
Yes, it does seem to cover most bases!
 
Aug 4 '12 at 14:38, by tchrist
Devanagari: This ४५६७ is 4567.
Hebrew/Bidirectional blend: The Hebrew alphabet is ‪אָלֶף־בֵּית עִבְרִי‬ and written right to left.
Cherokee: ᎣᎤᎦᎧᎨᎩᎪᎫᎬᎭᎮᎯᎰᎱᎲᎴᎵᎶᎸᎹᎺᎼᎽᎾᎿᏀᏁᏂᏃᏄᏅᏆᏇᏈᏉᏊᏋᏌᏍᏎᏏᏐᏑᏓᏔᏕᏖᏗᏘᏙᏛᏜᏝᏠᏡᏣᏤᏥᏧᏨᏩᏪᏫᏬᏭᏮᏯᏰᏱᏲᏳ
 
I rarely have a use for Cherokee characters. None of that worked.
 
Aug 4 '12 at 14:40, by tchrist
The Planets: ☿ ♀ ♁ ♂ ♃ ♄ ♅ ♆ ♇
The Zodiac: ♈ ♉ ♊ ♋ ♌ ♍ ♎ ♏ ♐ ♑ ♒ ♓
Recycling signs: ♲ ♳ ♴ ♵ ♶ ♷ ♸ ♹ ♺ ♻ ♼ ♽
Sexuality: ⚲ ♀ ♂ ⚢ ⚣ ⚤ ⚥ ⚦ ⚧ ⚨ ⚩
Musical Notes: 𝅗𝅥 𝅘𝅥 𝅘𝅥𝅮 𝅘𝅥𝅯 𝅘𝅥𝅰 𝅘𝅥𝅱 𝅘𝅥𝅲
Clock Faces: 🕐 🕒 🕔 🕘 🕜 🕠 🕤 🕧
 
Yea, works in Opera, most of the stuff.
 
9:05 PM
Aug 4 '12 at 14:39, by tchrist
Math letters: 𝒜 𝒟 𝔅 𝔎 𝔼 𝔽
Runics: ᚠᚡᚤᚥᚦᚨᚩᚫᚬᚭᚯᚰᚱᚲᚳᚴᚵᚷᚸᚹᚺᚼᛈᛉᛊᛋᛏᛒᛓᛖᛗᛘᛝᛠᛡᛢᛣᛤᛥᛩᛪ᛫᛬᛭ᛮᛯᛰ

Deseret blend: The Mormons invented the 𐐔𐐯𐑅𐐨𐑉𐐯𐐻 script.
Gothic blend: “𐌰𐍄𐍄𐌰 𐌿𐌽𐍃𐌰𐍂 𐌸𐌿 𐌹𐌽 𐌷𐌹𐌼𐌹𐌽𐌰𐌼” is Gothic for “Atta unsar þu in himinam”.
Hieroglyphics: 𓀂 𓀃 𓀄 𓀅 𓀆 𓀗 𓀘 𓀙 𓀫 𓀬 𓀭 𓀮 𓀯 𓁉
 
Only notes and , faces, gothic and hiero did not work.
opera on Win 7. Need to check on Linux as well.
 
How was the sex?
 
It was more like ex. She came by to pick up a DVR. (oh noes, now I have to watch Daily Shows on the webs).
 
Actually, quite a bit of this is ok on the iPad. I got Cherokee, Recycling signs, clock faces
And I got sex.
 
Interesting.
 
9:08 PM
But none of the Aug 4 stuff, on either Windows or iPad. (Except for thorn)
 
Bloody Mormons. They are everywhere here.
 
Aug 16 '12 at 14:48, by tchrist
Even 𓀀 𓀁 𓀂 𓀃 𓀄 𓀅 𓀆 𓀇 𓀈 𓀉 𓀊 𓀋 𓀌 𓀍 𓀎 𓀏 𓀐 𓀑 𓀒
𓀓 𓀔 𓀕 𓀖 𓀗 𓀘 𓀙 𓀚 𓀛 𓀜 𓀝 𓀞 𓀟 𓀠 𓀡 𓀢 𓀣 𓀤 𓀥 𓀦 𓀧 𓀨 𓀩 𓀪 𓀫 𓀬 𓀭 𓀮 𓀯 𓀰 𓀱 𓀲 𓀳 𓀴 𓀵 𓀶
𓀷 𓀸 𓀹 𓀺 𓀻 𓀼 𓀽 𓀾 𓀿 𓁀 𓁁 𓁂 𓁃 𓁄 𓁅 𓁆 𓁇 𓁈 𓁉 𓁊 𓁋 𓁌 𓁍 𓁎 𓁏 𓁐 𓁑 𓁒 𓁓 𓁔 𓁕 𓁖 𓁗 𓁘 𓁙 𓁚
𓁛 𓁜 𓁝 𓁞 𓁟 𓁠 𓁡 𓁢 𓁣 𓁤 𓁥 𓁦 𓁧 𓁨 𓁩 𓁪 𓁫 𓁬 𓁭 𓁮 𓁯 𓁰 𓁱 𓁲 𓁳 𓁴 𓁵 are easily distinguishable — viewed at 1200 dpi resolution and a reasonable 18-pt font.
 
Last one no go for me.
 
Nope, nope.
 
You need the AEgyptus font.
Aug 11 '12 at 1:14, by tchrist
𒂊 𒂭 𒂱 𒃔 𒇉 𒋧 𒋼 𒌣
 
9:10 PM
nope again
 
Lotsa cool toys here.
 
But I'd only need it to read these pearls of wisdom.
 
That last was cuneiform.
 
I am swine here.
 
From Akkadian, of course.
 
9:11 PM
What's a singular swine?
 
Get Symbola, Aegyptus, Akkadian, and Musica — at least.
It’s a plurale tantum, no?
 
So I am...?
 
Cf. свинья → свиньи.
 
svina - svini. Does that help?
 
OED says pl, but then says both sg and pl.
 
9:14 PM
OK. I am swine here, immune to pearls.
 
Aegyptus and Akkadian are a bit special-purpose, but Symbola and Musica are pretty general.
 
Ya, most of those looks the same to me, just smaller.
 
I like the Gothic thorn character, the one that looks like a trident.
Much better than the English thorn.
Well, Latin. Or so they call it.
 
I'll investigate. I wonder how I install them on the iPad...
 
@theUg I blew them up for legibility here.
A friend of mine, seeing that parade of putative sex signs, remarked that he hoped he never got educated in all those “alternates”. :)
Oh, but the list I showed him had ringers in it, where I mixed in some alchemy signs. I’d forgotten that.
That list up there was just:
Sexuality: \N{NEUTER} \N{FEMALE SIGN} \N{MALE SIGN} \N{DOUBLED FEMALE SIGN} \N{DOUBLED MALE SIGN} \N{INTERLOCKED FEMALE AND MALE SIGN} \N{MALE AND FEMALE SIGN} \N{MALE WITH STROKE SIGN} \N{MALE WITH STROKE AND MALE AND FEMALE SIGN} \N{VERTICAL MALE WITH STROKE SIGN} \N{HORIZONTAL MALE WITH STROKE SIGN}
 
9:26 PM
What's so special about males who have suffered a stroke?
 
Aug 3 '12 at 18:03, by tchrist
👽 EXTRATERRESTRIAL ALIEN
Aug 3 '12 at 18:01, by tchrist
👾 ALIEN MONSTER
Aug 3 '12 at 17:56, by tchrist
U+1F631 ‹😱› \N{FACE SCREAMING IN FEAR} \pS \p{So} All Any Assigned Block=InEmoticons Common Zyyy Emoticons So S Gr_Base Grapheme_Base Graph GrBase General_Category=Other_Symbol Print Symbol X_POSIX_Graph X_POSIX_Print Age=6.0
 
All those are quite picturesque on the iPad.
 
Edvard Munch gets his own emoticon.
@AndrewLeach Do you have the colorful versions?
 
Yes.
 
I did not get the aliens etc.
 
9:31 PM
The colorful versions are cute.
It’s just weird seeing color in a row of text.
 
Can I has a screenshot?
 
@theUg Not easily from an iPad, I'm afraid. I can take a screenshot, but there's no easy way (or even any way) to get it here.
Over to @tchrist.
 
Ah, more inadequacies for overpriced piece of equipment. :) I whish Windows had something like Shutter, though.
 
10:05 PM
What's the opposite idiom to "prepare the grounds (for something)" ?
 
Какая проблема, конкретно?
 
Found the stairs.
@Cerbs
 
 
1 hour later…
11:37 PM
@Ilya salt the earth
very different to salt of the earth
 
@AndrewLeach Can you just take the screenshot on your iPad and then email it from the Photos app?
 
Or buy a Nexus tablet?
Hello there.
 
@Cerberus!!!! Hiiiii. :)
But hey, no making fun of iPads. iPads are awesome. I still have my pointy sticks ;)
 
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