English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

14:01

I think that being said as used to refer to an event that precedes the main clause is irregular; I won't comment on whether it should be acceptable or not.

I really this this is what the OP meant, because he compares that being said to that having been said.

JSBangs

I'd argue that even in the case of that being said, the participle should be read as a passive perfect

furthermore, it is common in argumentation to refer to already-presented arguments in the present tense

Cerberus

@JSBangs A passive perfect? But as a rule English uses have there?

I agree that an already-presented argument can be simultaneous, but we'd need context for that.

In my example That being said, let's move on to the next subject: adultery, this isn't possible.

JSBangs

14:16

@Cerberus the semantics of participles are squicky in English. in particular, the "past participle" is more accurately referred to as a "passive perfect participle", as it can convey both perfective aspect and passive voice, or both, depending on context. i argue that in this case both the perfective and passive elements of the meaning are salient

in practice, really, all of these are synonymous:

that being said

that said

that having been said

and fixating on semantic differences between them is just silly

Cerberus

@JSB: I find it hard to believe that this perfective element should emerge so close to a form of "be": I'd rather explain it as "said" being used adjectivally, or of "being" being used as a mere marker of causality or something, perhaps.

But I haven't decided yet where to put my money on.

JSBangs

@Cerberus being is used as a marker of passivity, since the English passive is expressed by be + V-en

Cerberus

It might also be perceived as a marker of causality, as in: there being no exit, they all died in the fire.

I know the causality does not lie in the participle, of course; but I think people add "being" to mark causality in some cases; being "feels" somehow a bit causal to them.

I am looking for a reason why anyone would feel the need to add "being" to the perfectly acceptable expression "that said".

I'm not at all sure about this, obviously.

Well I'll write an answer of my own; that will be easier.

Ed Guiness

I think I just made up a word (though I doubt it's an original) - what would you guess I meant if I introduced "Mrs Smith, the determinatrix"?

RegDwight

@EdGuiness I'm pretty sure I've seen a few movies by that title.

Kosmonaut

14:28

She flogs people who use determiners improperly?

RegDwight

And by "seen" I mean, on the shelf somewhere.

Ed Guiness

hmm. neither of those are what I did mean. back to the drawling bored

RegDwight

Google returns 5000+ results.

Ed Guiness

for you perhaps... I get About 1,040 results (0.10 seconds)

RegDwight

"Page 4 of about 5,240 results (0.24 seconds) "

Ed Guiness

14:33

I want the google you're using (actually, no I don't)

RegDwight

Of course, many of them are dupes, or just meaningless placeholders, such as two (!) empty pages by that title on TVtropes, and some domain name squatters.

But ignoring them for a moment, you're not original, sorry.

Ed Guiness

I didn't think I was, not under this sun

RegDwight

@EdGuiness Note that the OP has edited his question. So now the answer is probably just witness.

Oh. Forgot to reload the page.

You're saying just that.

Ed Guiness

Yep, got that

RegDwight

Hey MrHen's back!

MrHen

14:42

1

Q: His Head or Their Heads?

I was disappointed to see a favorite storybook from my childhood has been edited. (Harry, the Dirty Dog; ISBN-13: 978-0064430098) I distinctly remember the text written as follows: ...but everyone shook his head and said, "Oh, no, it couldn't be Harry." I was taught that the male gender f...

rant?

@RegDwight Does this mean I am past the point of merely lurking in peace?

RegDwight

Well, Big Reg is watching you.

Now that your gravatar is all over the place.

Martha

We still need to get @MrHen a better gravatar.

RegDwight

@Martha As soon as he passes 10k, he will pick the Hanzi for hen anyway.

Martha

Oh, is that the new requirement? Or is it just a fashion? If the latter, I plan to be unfashionable if I ever reach 10K.

RegDwight

@Martha I was just going to ask you to be just that.

It's a fashion. Those Robustos and Fxes are like that.

And @Rhodri is scaring the hell out of me.

Ed Guiness

14:50

I'd like a better looking gravatar. I'd also like a better looking head.

Martha

@RegDwight Good, I'm relieved.

@RegDwight Do tell?

RegDwight

Rhodri, Cambridge, UK

3k 12

usage word-choice meaning idioms single-word-requests vocabulary grammar

Martha

@EdGuiness Well, nobody said your gravatar had to be your head. :D

@RegDwight Oh, right. His new glowing... thing.

MrHen

@Martha I'm working on it... sheesh.

RegDwight

I got used to his abstract pattern so much, I could draw it by heart.

And now... this nonsense.

Martha

14:52

You know, I don't remember @Rhodri's old gravatar.

RegDwight

Lemme draw it by heart.

Kosmonaut

Make it with ASCII art

"An L-block approaches!"

RegDwight

Something along the lines of this.

Kosmonaut

Wow, you really know your unicode!

RegDwight

There should be a mod option to force-replace gravatars.

I mean, the first step has been made.

18

Q: We're all Rebecca Chernoff \o/

On this frabjous day, our community manager Rebecca Chernoff has graciously allowed all of us *1 to be her for one day, and one day only. And so, ladies and gentlemen, let me present to you: We're all Rebecca Chernoff \o/ A userscript dedicated to making all of you Rebecca Chernoffs. Reall...

discussion fun greasemonkey oy rebecca-chernoff

RegDwight

15:12

Hm... just where did I see this handle...

ElendilTheTall

472 2 4

medicine physics mars meteorite urine alternative-medicine optical-illusions

I wonder if it's him. The gravatar is not the same.

JSBangs

15:55

does no one else other than me care about tags? i think i've retagged 2/3 of the questions on the front page right now

RegDwight

Now, now, now. Let's not exaggerate. Your vow is just a day old.)))

Even vgv8 has more edits than you.

That being said, I applaud your efforts.

(Heh. I didn't even use "that being said" on purpose.)

Robusto

@RegDwight — Still with the old generic avatar ...

RegDwight

Fast forward 90-odd seconds, Cerberus posts this:

0

A: Refute a Pedant: "That being said" -- Grammatical Atrocity?

I think your friend has a point. I will not comment on whether this construction is acceptable; I will just explain why it is somewhat irregular. Consider this sentence: Its walls being assaulted by the Crusaders, Constantinople got little sleep that night. It is clear that the city's being...

JSBangs

i gave him +1 just for loquacity

Robusto

ant clean deploy

MrHen

16:12

@Robusto Why I outta... *shakes fist*

JSBangs

@Robusto 'ant' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program, or batch file

RegDwight

@MrHen I think I have your new gravatar.

It's totally crazy, not sure you'll be able to handle it.

Robusto

Oops. Pasted the wrong thing into chat, then was immediately interrupted.

RegDwight

/kick Robusto

Robusto

jboss.start

RegDwight

16:14

Oops, I mean /caress Robusto /gently.

Robusto

Nah, that one didn't work either.

They really need to expose an API here. I mean, here we are with this great command-line interface and all we can do is bloviate into it.

MrHen

@RegDwight Forgive me if I seem unfilled with joy.

JSBangs

i'm hungry. off to eat leftover couscous and fried zucchini for a while

MrHen

@JSBangs Aw, that sounds better than my meal

RegDwight

Okay @MrHen, here goes. Hold tight.

MrHen

16:16

@RegDwight Heh, I was about to make the same joke.

And stopped to ponder if I need to flip or rotate.

And then *bam* you snuck it in.

Although it would be more of a mind-bender if I went and stole Rhodri's old one

RegDwight

Okay, but I bet you'd never thought of this:

@MrHen I think it would be a much better mind-bender if you went and stole Rhodri's new one.

MrHen

@RegDwight True.

@RegDwight Now, now; that would just be rude.

Cerberus

@JSBangs: I have posted a somewhat long answer why I think that being said is a bit odd in the context I think it was intended for.

1

A: Refute a Pedant: "That being said" -- Grammatical Atrocity?

I think your friend has a point. I will not comment on whether this construction is acceptable; I will just explain why it is somewhat irregular. Consider this sentence: Its walls being assaulted by the Crusaders, Constantinople got little sleep that night. It is clear that the city's being...

RegDwight

SLOOOOOOOW JINX.

MrHen

@Cerberus Ugh. The title of that question bugs me.

RegDwight

16:21

@Cerberus Guess who upvoted you.

Cerberus

@MrHen: Agreed!

RegDwight

@MrHen Okay, okay. But how about having your Rhodri and eating him, too?

Cerberus

@Reg: Thank you! That vote came so quickly that I thought it was by someone who was randomly trying to get some badge or something. But your reading comprehension of course allows you this speedy voting...

Haha!

MrHen

@RegDwight Hmm... can you put the pattern over the black guy? That may look trippy enough.

RegDwight

@Cerberus It wasn't me. D'oh.

Chat. You. Read.

Try. It. Fun.

15 mins ago, by JSBangs

i gave him +1 just for loquacity

Cerberus

16:23

Oh.

I see.

RegDwight

@MrHen You mean like this?

Cerberus

Did he even read it?

RegDwight

MrHen

@RegDwight Yes! Amazing!

Cerberus

Well I don't care; I think I am right and that's what counts.

I know my answer was long, but I don't see how I could have explained all those different steps in fewer words without assuming that the OP knew stuff.

MrHen

16:26

@Cerberus Long answers aren't bad.

Cerberus

@MrHen: True! But it is a pity if people are too lazy to read them.

I must admit I skip long answers too if the topic doesn't interest me. If it does, they can be delicious.

RegDwight

Um, wrong site.

MrHen

@Cerberus Sure. Admittedly, I have no idea why this particular question is such a big deal. I am still sort of slogging through the answers.

RegDwight

Food and Cooking – cooking.stackexchange.com

Launched Q&A site for cooks, chefs, anyone who can make a dish that can objectively be described as "mean"

Cerberus

It is a very complicated issue, participles and tenses, and in an absolute construction to boot. Many people don't even get what the participle does in such a construction.

Robusto

16:30

@RegDwight — Obviously a Cylon. Try harder.

MrHen

@Robusto Perhaps a 90° rotate?

Cerberus

1. Participles inherit the time of the main verb; 2. past participles lose their sense of precedence when used with the auxiliary verb to be; 3. participles are sometimes used as pure adjectives and lose their function of participleness. All these factors cloud the issue.

Robusto

Then it would be Borgish.

Cerberus

Then the main issues haven't even been touched: 1. how does the absolute construction work; 2. how are the different tenses used.

Robusto

Hey, if the Borg had a Renaissance dynasty, would they be called "The Borgias"? Think about it.

RegDwight

16:34

No.

Cerberus

The Borgias wore implants under their robes and brooches and mitres; have you never noticed?

Robusto

@Cerberus — Then it's true! All of Italia was assimilated! Resistance was futile!

RegDwight

Is implant the opposite of plant?

Robusto

@RegDwight — No. But Robert Plant might have had an implant. You never know.

Cerberus

True, all true!

Robusto

16:37

Anyway, plant is an abbreviation of planet. Which is an abbreviation of Plantagenet.

They studied Plantagenetics before Mendeleyev.

RegDwight

Cerberus

The Plantagenets were a bunch of petty revanchists who failed in their attempts to get back at the frogs, so let's not bring them up.

Sorry for that, I am all dizzy for lack of food.

I'm off, ta!

Robusto

Food now.

Cerberus

I know!

But I need exercise first, yuck.

Later!

RegDwight

Lordy, it's that late already?

Rhodri

16:44

@RegDwight Fame at last

RegDwight

You were famous all along.

Rhodri

2

Q: Why do we say 'commentator' instead of 'commenter'?

Another thread addresses the Englishness of the words. My question is different and a lot more convoluted: I hope I can make it plain and simple. I. There are straightforward nouns of action and agency with roots in English verbs: procrastinator, loafer, snoozer. And other nouns that arise from ...

word-choice linguistics meter

Everybody duck, @Pete Wilson invoked Aristotle!

RegDwight

You're not IMing this from your iPhone, are you?

Rhodri

14 hours ago, by Robusto

And don't get me started on Aristotle.

I'm not cool enough to be allowed an iPhone.

RegDwight

Okay, just wanted to make sure I understand you correctly.

MrHen

16:48

How big is a typical gravatar?

Er, dimensions.

RegDwight

128×128.

Rhodri

Ah. That would explain why mine looks so fuzzy. It's only 100x100 since it started life as a LiveJournal icon.

RegDwight

I hate having to google for the times sign.

Rhodri

It's a sign of the times.

RegDwight

Honestly, it should be on the num pad. How come × types a *?

MrHen

16:51

Better question: What do you call a(n) *?

RegDwight

Asterisk.

MrHen

I've heard splat; star; asterisk

RegDwight

Or asteriks.

12

A: Pronunciation and spelling of "asterisk"

The phenomenon is called metathesis, and it is actually not that uncommon in English and many other languages. Note how you say three, but not threeteen or thrid; you say thirteen and third instead. That's because thirteen and third have undergone a metathesis from Old English þreotene and þridd...

Rhodri

Or Asterix

Asterix

{| class="infobox" style="width: 18em; font-size: 3; text-align: left;" |- | colspan="2" style="text-align: center; font-size: 125%; font-weight: bold" | AsterixAstérix |- | colspan="2" style="text-align: center;" | |- | colspan="2" style="text-align: center;" | Some of the many recurring and regular characters in Asterix. In the centre of the group is Asterix, the eponymous hero of the series. |- |Created by: |René Goscinny and Albert Uderzo |- |Genre: | Humor and Satire |- |Publisher: |Dargaud (France) |- |Original publication period: | 29 October 1959 – 22 October 2009 |- |Status: |...

RegDwight

Le Gaulois!

MrHen

16:53

Asterisk has too many syllables. I'm sticking with star.

**ptr is never going to work as "Asterisk-asterisk-pointer"

RegDwight

Okay, lads and gents and birds of the heavens and beasts of the field: I gotta go.

MrHen

@RegDwight Crap; now I have to wonder which I am.

Martha

@RegDwight Is it really necessary to tell us about the state of your bladder?

RegDwight

@MrHen **ptr is Polish for Peter.

@Martha Necessary? No. I never said it was necessary.

Kosmonaut

You could call it a splat.

RegDwight

16:55

4 mins ago, by MrHen

I've heard splat; star; asterisk

I'm out!

Rhodri

@Kosmonaut The asterisk or @Reg's bladder?

MrHen

@Kosmonaut As best as I can tell, "splat" is west coast; star is midwest

No clue what the East calls it

Rhodri

"Star" is UK also.

Kosmonaut

It is known as "star" in the linguistics community.

Martha

I dunno, I've always called it asterisk. Grew up on the left coast, never heard it called "splat".

Kosmonaut

16:57

I've never actually heard anyone call it "splat" who wasn't trying to be silly.

JSBangs

i always called it astrick. i only pronounce the second s when i'm being very careful

Kosmonaut

@JSBangs Same for me for the plural at least.

astricks

MrHen

@Kosmonaut I had one prof who called it that. So perhaps it was his university. I know it was west coast... let me see if I can remember where

Kosmonaut

I would assume that a prof that did that would do it as more of an affectation.

Certainly possible, especially if it was a computer science course.

MrHen

@Kosmonaut Yeah he was a little odd. Pulled all of our materials and tests from the same school he went to.

We learned jack squat.

catb.org/jargon/html/S/splat.html

Martha

17:02

@JSBangs You mean that even if you're being careful, you pronounce it with only two syllables? (It's three syllables for me: as-tər-isk.)

Kosmonaut

If I ever interview for an IBM job, I should keep that in mind.

MrHen

@Martha Same here. If I am getting lazy or slurry I say as-trisk

Kosmonaut

@Martha It's an extremely short schwa that varies freely between there and not there.

For me.

MrHen

Nah, I don't have any of the lectures any more

I want to say it had an 'E' and an 'M' in there somewhere.

Ah, cmu.edu/index.shtml

Strangely, that is East Coast

So... I had it backwards

Kosmonaut

East Coast is a stretch.

We're talking about Pittsburgh

MrHen

17:11

@Kosmonaut What would you call it?

Kosmonaut

Northeast

MrHen

I have: West-Midwest-East

Ah, okay

So: West-Midwest-South-Northeast-East?

Kosmonaut

But it's closer to Lake Erie than the Atlantic Ocean.

MrHen

Well, I am comparing "East" to Minnesota, which is where I grew up.

So... East of the lakes is East

Kosmonaut

Ha, you are having the opposite problem of everybody out here.

To them the Midwest is everything from western Pennsylvania to California :)

MrHen

17:13

:P

How would California be Midwest?! Ack.

Kosmonaut

Up to but not including

MrHen

Ah

Actually, that would make a decent question

What does the "mid" of "Midwest" refer to?

Kosmonaut

I think it was used back when we had the States from the East Coast around Illinois and not much further west, but then we had California

So the Midwest states were to the west, but not all the way to the west.

MrHen

Yeah, that's my expectation

But growing up in Minnesota, everything was south of us

So... "Mid" sort of also meant "halfway down"

As I kid I was confused when people included Minnesota in the midwest

But I eventually figured it out

Kosmonaut

It is a weird name nowadays... especially since it really is much closer to the East.

NY -> Chicago is 2.5 hours. NY -> LA is almost 6 hours.

And Chicago isn't on the eastern edge of the Midwest.

JSBangs

17:20

curious. i grew up in Colorado (and currently live in MN), and i would have said that I grew up in the West. California was the West Coast

Kosmonaut

@JSBangs No, that fits with what I would call it, personally.

MrHen

Yeah, Colorado and Chicago are sort on the edges of the Midwest

JSBangs

so for me it west East (Coast) > Midwest > West > West Coast

MrHen

Some people think they are in; some do not

Midwestern United States

The Midwestern United States (in the U.S. generally referred to as the Midwest) is one of the four geographic regions within the United States of America used by the United States Census Bureau in its reporting. The region consists of 12 states in the north-central United States: Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, North Dakota, Ohio, South Dakota and Wisconsin. A 2006 Census Bureau estimate put the population at 66,217,736. Both the geographic center of the contiguous U.S. and the population center of the U.S. are in the Midwest. The United States...

Apparently the Census Bureau has officially defined the term

Chicago is in; Colorado is out

JSBangs

that picture really is the quintessential image of what the midwest is like

Kosmonaut

17:22

@JSBangs People on the east who call practically everything the Midwest are just ignorant of the "flyover states".

MrHen

Well, more specifically Iowa

JSBangs

@Kosmonaut i'm annoyed by easterners and their ignorance of "flyover states"

Kosmonaut

Me too :)

MrHen

Just to keep things sort of on topic:

Midwestern United States

The Midwestern United States (in the U.S. generally referred to as the Midwest) is one of the four geographic regions within the United States of America used by the United States Census Bureau in its reporting. The region consists of 12 states in the north-central United States: Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, North Dakota, Ohio, South Dakota and Wisconsin. A 2006 Census Bureau estimate put the population at 66,217,736. Both the geographic center of the contiguous U.S. and the population center of the U.S. are in the Midwest. The United States...

Kosmonaut

It's not all of them of course, but it surprises me, having lived most of my life in Chicago.

JSBangs

17:23

i've barely traveled east of the Mississippi river in my life, so i consider all of you easterners to be decadent foreigners

MrHen

Bah, the autolink doesn't notice section links

JSBangs

what's the section?

MrHen

"Linguistic characteristics"

Kosmonaut

Linguistic characteristics of the Midwest.

There are several accents in the Midwest area, of course.

JSBangs

ah, then. is there a related question?

MrHen

17:25

@JSBangs So have you met the "Minnesota" accent yet?

Rhodri

You're all Western foreigners to me anyway.

JSBangs

chicago has its own thing going on

MrHen

@JSBangs That is true. I like the Chicago accent. :)

JSBangs

@MrHen you betcha. my extended family has always lived here, so i've known the MN accent for years.

Kosmonaut

You mean Chicægo? :)

MrHen

17:26

@JSBangs I love my home state. :D

I watched Fargo with some friends from Texas and loved it.

Kosmonaut

I like the Northern Cities Shift accent — doesn't have to be the full-blown version in Fargo

MrHen

Northern cities vowel shift

The Northern cities vowel shift is a chain shift in the sounds of some vowels in the dialect region of American English known as the Inland North. Geography The name of the shift comes from the region where it occurs, a broad swath of the United States around the Great Lakes, beginning some 50 miles west of Albany and extending west through Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo, Cleveland, Detroit, Chicago, Madison, and north to Green Bay; the shift also affects a corridor of cities along Interstate 55 southwest of Chicago as far as St. Louis (Labov et al. 187–208). William Labov, a linguist a...

Kosmonaut

When I hear "bag" as [beɡ] and "milk" as [mɛlk] I am very entertained.

MrHen

Where I grew up, we just butchered everything into a schwa.

The tell tale words that flag me as MN are the root/roof/hoof family

Kosmonaut

Right

JSBangs

17:32

the most salient feature for me is actually the slightly raised, monophthong [o]

MrHen

Minnes o ta?

Arg

Stupid formatting

Kosmonaut

I also like the [kjæ] in casserole. ([kjæ] or something in that area)

JSBangs

while my (Colorado) idiolect prefers [əu] for /o/

@Kosmonaut you mean "hot dish" ?

Kosmonaut

Ha

Those crazy midwesterners

MrHen

@JSBangs: Where in MN are your relatives? I have a fun question to ask them if they are centralish

JSBangs

17:36

ah, no. we're in Fergus Falls

MrHen

Hm.

It may still work.

Ask them about Duck, Duck, Gray Duck

The rest of the US & world calls it Duck, Duck, Goose

JSBangs

o_O

MrHen

Centralish Minnesota is the only place I have heard it called Duck, Duck, Gray Duck

Duluth seems to know Duck, Duck, Goose

So the further north you go, the less likely it gets

But I asked a news anchor here in TX who is from MN about it and she knew Duck, Duck, Gray Duck

Most people I know from the state know Duck, Duck, Gray Duck

To the point that Duck, Duck, Goose blew my mind when I found out we were saying it differently.

mr-verb.blogspot.com/2008/06/ask-verb-duck-duck-gray-duck.html

facebook.com/topic.php?uid=47653122215&topic=5412

JSBangs

i'll have to ask. i can't say i played a bunch of Duck, Duck, Generic Waterfowl, so i don't know how they actually do it here

MrHen

Ask without tipping your hand, though

Describe the game and ask its name

Because people just automatically know the right answer.

Most people haven't heard of both names

Kosmonaut

17:50

When I teach Linguistics 101, I love telling the New Yorkers about the things that they falsely believe everyone does.

Me: "I have no distinction between the words fairy and ferry" — Students: "What? But they are spelled differently!"

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…