English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

tchrist

00:11

@Cerberus What's sad is that things that are supposed to help kids are a source of nastiness.

Cerberus

Yeah.

tchrist

@MετάEd Ben-Gay is some sort of heating sports cream, right?

Cerberus

But humanity has mostly won the battle of emancipation.

tchrist

Do you think so?

Cerberus

Yes.

The battle against religion has also been won.

tchrist

00:13

No.

If it had, there would not be the atmosphere that that article is talking about.

Right?

Cerberus

Let me put it this way: the enemy has been mortally wounded and will only lose more strength over time, not gain.

tchrist

I wish you would refine your battle a bit.

I still think that it needn’t be religion that is the real problem here.

Cerberus

Perhaps not.

tchrist

Although you look at the crap in the Middle East, and then I backpedal.

Cerberus

The Middle East is backward.

tchrist

00:16

To us sybarites, no doubt that is so. :)

Cerberus

Social change hasn't come from thence since the Middle Ages.

Possibly the early Renaissance.

tchrist

I think if I had come across the name “Pascal Tessier”, knowing it was an American but not the sex, I might hesitate about whether to say he or she, since Americans think Pascal is a girl’s name. Probably doesn’t help the lad, that.

Cerberus

Huh?

That's weird.

tchrist

Social change from the Middle East, from the Arabs, or from the Moslems?

Cerberus

Ehh those two coincide.

tchrist

00:19

That would be three, and yes, I can do Venn diagrams, too. :)

MετάEd

@tchrist There used to be TV ads.

tchrist

I don’t know much of it.

Meaning, social change.

Cerberus

I thought you meant, "social change, did it come from the Arabs, or from the Moslems?".

tchrist

From the MidEast/Arabs/Moslems.

Chance not change?

That is something else.

Something worth pondering, though.

K.

Cerberus

Nearly all Arabs having been Moslems for more than a millennium, the difference is not relevant here.

tchrist

00:21

Am I spelling that right?

I'm on weirdo meds dithering my brain.

Cerberus

Spelling what right?

tchrist

Moslem.

Cerberus

I think many alternative spellings are used.

tchrist

Ok. I would pronounce it Muslim.

Cerberus

Muslim is probably more common.

tchrist

00:22

@MετάEd Did the product go away, or just the ads?

Cerberus

Cf. Muhammad, Mohamed, Mohamet, Mahomet...etc. etc.

tchrist

Right.

They do a lot of stories on NPR about that part of the world, and the subcontinent.

Cerberus

Mehmet...

OK.

tchrist

It is incredible what goes on there, or what doesn’t.

The new generation, I don’t know. They seem so hopeful.

Cerberus

It is an explosive region.

It won't stabilise for a while.

tchrist

00:24

Not sure it ever will.

Cerberus

The first step in fixing it would probably be to remove Israel.

tchrist

Don’t know that stasis is a natural or inevitable end state.

Go Iran Go!

If they can’t nuke ’em, nobody can.

That really does not go over well.

Cerberus

Nobody can.

Only a peaceful removal would work, and that will never happen.

MετάEd

@tchrist According to Google it's still there.

Dunno about the ads. I never watch TV.

Cerberus

Unless someday "we" stop supporting Israel.

tchrist

00:26

If only Israel would not be threatening to annihilate all the countries around it.

Cerberus

Annihilate...

tchrist

I would be touchy too if somebody told me I should not exist.

Cerberus

It is a vicious circle.

tchrist

And you got Jaspered.

The only stuff about Israel that really freaks me out is the ultras.

MετάEd

And we can thank England.

Cerberus

00:27

The Jews came and bought the land. Friction grew. The Jews felt threatened. They started treating their neighbours worse. Arabs started to become more violent against Israel. Etc.

tchrist

@MετάEd Because there will always be England?

Cerberus

@MετάEd Yeah...God, they were stupid.

tchrist

> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.

Cerberus

Moving large numbers of organisms across a long distance in a short period of time is sure to create great destruction.

tchrist

Or is that resort? I forget.

Cerberus

00:30

Except possibly to a lifeless area.

tchrist

You prefer countries where women are property, where there is no democratically elected government? Israel is the best thing that ever happened to that part of the country: they are not in the Middle Ages.

Everyone is.

Or so it feels like.

Yes, I can carve out exceptions.

But not many.

Cerberus

They are partly in the Middle Ages...women sit in special compartments on certain bus lines in Israelian Jerusalem.

tchrist

I told you the Israeli ultras bugged me.

Cerberus

I don't dislike Israelian society more than Arab societies, but it is in the wrong place at the wrong time.

And I would have expected more of a Western society.

tchrist

I would like to suggest, in the nicest way possible, that you consider using Israeli not *Israelian. Honest.

Oh well. At least it isn’t Israelite. That would be explosive.

Cerberus

00:35

I have no preference. We mostly use Israeli and Israelisch in Dutch, so I thought Israelian would be nice for a change.

But I couldn't care less, to be honest.

tchrist

I say it because it sounds a bit, well, NNS.

Cerberus

As long as I am not routinely referring to Dutchmen as "prostitutes" and Americans as "fatties", I think I'm doing all right.

tchrist

I haven’t heard/seen/read it before.

Cerberus

I know.

I didn't think it was in use.

tchrist

You know Dutchmen who are prostitutes? I thought you lived in the female-strumpet zone.

Cerberus

00:38

I don't know any personally. But I might use the word "prostitute" instead of "Dutchman" if I wanted to provoke people or something.

tchrist

There are certainly more provocative synonyms. Whore usually does the trick. Or turns.

simchona

tchrist

The old flourish of strumpets rides again.

Cerberus

13

A: How are silent letters important?

There are several reasons, three of which stand out: If you keep the original spelling, connections to the same word used in other languages remain intact. In honest and psychology, for example, this makes it easier for people to communicate across English, French, Latin, Greek, etc. In German,...

tchrist

@simchona Awwwww!

Cerberus

00:40

I need one more reopen-vote, please...

Mitch

@Cerberus uh no nota at all. There are a number of Arabs that are Christian (mostly in Syria, Lebanon and Israel. Also, the great majority of Muslims are non-Arab. There are more Muslims in -each- of India and Pakistan and Iran and Indonesia than there are Arabs. (all those places are decidedly not Arabs. I don't know if Egyptians and west are considered Arabs or not.

Cerberus

@simchona So that's how you see yourself, huh?

simchona

@Cerberus Done

@Cerberus Cute and cuddly? Yes.

tchrist

@sim What species?

Mitch

I can't reopen there!!

Cerberus

00:41

@Mitch Of course, but we were talking about the Middle East.

In very general terms.

simchona

@tchrist Fennec foxes

Cerberus

The distinction was really not relevant there.

@simchona Thanks!

simchona

Last one:

Mitch

And in the Middle East in very general terms I would include all those Arab Christians, and on the other hand the Turks and Iranians

tchrist

I was wondering whether it was Vulpes, and it appears so.

Cerberus

00:42

@Mitch Well, you tried. That's good enough for me.

tchrist

@simchona But whyyyy?

Don’t hold out on us!

Cerberus

@simchona Kit's daughter.

simchona

@tchrist Because there were only like, three in the photoset I found

tchrist

The last one you have to look at a while to convince yourself to go down the canine not the feline branch. Strange.

MετάEd

G'nite.

Cerberus

00:44

Bai.

tchrist

Night.

Cerberus

What is the rep cap again?

200?

tchrist

200.

Cerberus

OK.

Cute.

tchrist

“All the better to hear you with, my dear!”

Cerberus

00:48

hides in forest

hides in Fornost

tchrist

Norbury?

Cerberus

Was it called that?

tchrist

That, too.

Cerberus

It was in the north...

tchrist

That was the English translation.

Cerberus

00:51

Oh.

tchrist

The Breelanders called it Deadman’s Dike.

Norbury of the Kings was what the hobbits called it.

I always read Fornost as a riff on Far North.

Cerberus

I remember none other than the elven name.

I can't think of any other name with for.

sneezes really hard, 4 times

tchrist

No?

Cerberus

No doubt there are many.

tchrist

Forlindon.

Cerberus

00:54

Yeah, like that.

tchrist

Formenos.

The Ice Bay of Forochel.

Cerberus

@tchrist I know that name. What was it again? A palace or something?

tchrist

The Forgotten Caves. :)

Cerberus

Forlindon and Forochel I can locate.

tchrist

Formenos was the stronghold of the Fëanorians in Valinor.

Cerberus

00:55

Ah, I knew it.

tchrist

In the north, in fact.

Cerberus

Yeah.

That's why they walked to Middle Earth over the northern ice.

tchrist

Forodwaith = Northerland

Cerberus

Right...

tchrist

There aren’t all that many, which surprises me a tad given the importance of the North.

> ‘Deadmen’s Dike, you say. So it has been called for long years; but its right name, Barliman, is Fornost Erain, Norbury of the Kings.’ [Gandalf]

Cerberus

00:59

Right, right.

tchrist

Fornost = north fortress, Erain = pl of Aran.

I don’t know that they did genitive plurals in Sindarin the way they did in Quenya.

They weren’t all that case-minded, it seems, in the newer Sindarin.

Cerberus

Did you ever bother to learn Tolkien's tongues?

tchrist

Well, I didn’t bother not to, would be more like it.

Morphemes and morphology stick with you, whether you will or nill.

Ered Mithrin and such instantly translate without thinking.

I have more trouble with Smaug and Sméagol, frankly.

Since I have no Old English to speak of.

Oh, and smials.

All three of which are related.

But to real languages, not invented ones.

Cerberus

I was 10.

tchrist

I had read it 13 times before I turned 13.

Cerberus

01:05

I liked the history more than the language.

tchrist

I do not know the first time.

Robusto

0

Q: The other meanings of twopence

I'm a 66 y.o. Still working lady, marred three grown up children and grandchildren, and today I learn the "other" meaning of twopence. I've really enjoyed reading all the comments, which show you are never to old to learn. As many of you write, mothers would use a nick name for 'private' parts ...

ambiguity

tchrist

I may have been 12?

Robusto

WTF?

Cerberus

And I never reread the entire book later.

tchrist

01:05

Dunno.

She’s spelt tuppence wrong.

Robusto

@tchrist When Ian McKellen was interviewed he was asked to give the "correct" pronunciation of Smeagol. He pronounced it wrong, of course.

tchrist

Yes, I know.

Bovered me.

But he does better at Fíli and Kíli than Armitage does.

I mean, what the fuck do they think the long mark is for, anyway?

Did you notice that Dáin and Thráin became convention diphthongs?

Robusto

What the fuck do they know about diphthongs either?

tchrist

Seems to me so did Glóin.

Who is no longer a glowin’ glede.

But some Bored of the Rings Groiner.

Robusto

The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey is casting doubt all over Jackson's TLoTR in retrospect.

tchrist

01:10

Really? Hm.

There was some interview about how some cast members (plural) just never could get the pronunciations down.

I think most people read it with their own invented pronunciations, and those get stuck.

Cerberus

@tchrist You sound surprised.

tchrist

Surprised, sure.

Because I do not see what is new there.

Jackson has always been dull with his over-indulgence.

Cerberus

@tchrist I even have many names that I wouldn't pronounce at all. Or even spell. I just recognise their word shapes.

tchrist

Now and then he gets things right, of course.

Cerberus

It is a Hollywood film, what do you expect?

Or a film intended for a mass audience anyway.

tchrist

01:13

The first of the three films was certainly the best.

Cerberus

Still pales in comparison to the book.

tchrist

@Cerberus Of whom half are below average.

Of course.

Cerberus

And the average is looooooow.

tchrist

If you stand 3 or 4 standard deviations above the mean, just imagine those below it.

It is very hard.

aedia λ

Salvor Hardin!

tchrist

01:16

Ding ding ding.

aedia λ

I'm a little behind.

tchrist

Lots of exercise?

aedia λ

Hah.

Cerberus

whinny

Robusto

Salve aedia!

Cerberus

01:19

I think that should technically be salva...

tchrist

Well....

Robusto

@Cerberus looooooow spelled backwards is woooooool.

@Cerberus Do you put salva on your aching joints?

tchrist

No no.

Cerberus

I might!

tchrist

He is just avoiding the v-word.

Salve, Regina, Mater misericordiæ,
vita, dulcedo, et spes nostra, salve.
ad te clamamus exsules filii Hevæ,
ad te suspiramus, gementes et flentes
in hac lacrimarum valle.

Robusto

01:20

@Cerberus *whiny

Cerberus

NOU

Robusto

Church Latin is getting all medieval on @Cerb's ass.

Cerberus

Yeah, I can't even look at that.

spits on his own foot

tchrist

Oh wait.

Tu imperative doesn’t switch, does it?

►

Cerberus

?

tchrist

01:23

You would think that it would be subjunctive, 3rd person.

But it has all those te thingies.

For some reason, the tu-imperative is just salva, not I dunno, non salves or something.

The Romance tongues kept that odd model.

I was thinking it was like "May the Queen salve".

But it is probably vocative, so well, no.

Cerberus

Salvus is an adjective.

tchrist

Oh?

It is not a verb there?

Cerberus

Although it might be a verb...

It's complicated.

tchrist

Then it should be salve in the vocative.

Cerberus

There is salvus, salvare, and salvēre.

tchrist

01:27

If it is salvus.

Cerberus

I don't recall letters addressed to women, so I don't know what one would use with them.

tchrist

Surely Regina is vocative, so if salvus is applying to her, oh drat. She's feminine.

Which is back to salva.

Even if it is vocative.

Cerberus

Yes, but who knows what Church Latin does...

tchrist

What is it supposed to mean then?

Cerberus

And there is the possibility that it became a fixed expression, even.

Robusto

01:30

You put the i in salva, turning it into saliva. Dumb doggy.

tchrist

Sage advice, that.

Just a bit dyslexic.

Cerberus

Okay, it appears both occur.

tchrist

Even if one of his heads is dumb, he still has one left over to bark.

And one to bite.

Both occur?

Cerberus

The standard expression salve is from salvere.

tchrist

So it is a verb.

Cerberus

01:32

Salvus sis, satin' salve, and others are from salvus. But that is the adverb, not the vocative.

tchrist

So that is the tu-imperative of salvere.

@Rob See salvia. You aren’t a gardener, eh?

Urg.

Robusto

►

0

Q: Is this sentence "She rushed out, her hair awry" literal?

I am questioning this, because I think that I would say it like this "She rushed out with her hair awry". I would say "with", but I'm not sure about it.

meaning-in-context

Gen ref.

Look up awry.

simchona

It's also NARQ. What is (or isn't) "literal" about it?

tchrist

@simchona Pardon?

Robusto

Let's just close it as WTF?

tchrist

01:37

Oh.

Nebber mind.

@Cerb Hm, they say “presumably”.

Robusto

►

Cerberus

Do you mean "literary"? This construction is indeed a bit literary, and it is called an absolute construction. — Cerberus 10 secs ago

@tchrist Yeah, well, I trust Witionary this much, and Lewis & Short that much.

I consulted the latter.

tchrist

Yeah yeah. It’s downstairs. . . somewhere.

How come nobody else can ever arrange my books the way I want them arranged?

Cerberus

How come nobody ever arranges my books, including myself?

Robusto

►

One of my favorite songs.

simchona

01:43

M,I can recognize what a personal attack is and what not and surely reason is not important for me unless geeks and non geeks try offensive language suitable for high school ages. I agree with you about my problems in grammar as a non native English speaker but surely I can recognize which time problematic reactions by some famous Ids here is because of my grammar or because of taking it personal or anything else. I do not want to be judgmental as I wrote my ideas about it in two topics in meta site. In this case I think my grammar is enough clear to understand the meaning of the context. — SnowFlake 1 hour ago

Huh?

tchrist

@Sim I think that that person is, um, unbalanced. Shoulder chip. Kinda wacko.

Robusto

Just listen.

tchrist

Am.

Cerberus

I am tempted to vote to delete that question.

simchona

@Cerberus Which?

tchrist

01:46

I never saw the “racist and sexist language” that that user claims to have been attacked with. Did that actually happen, or is it just a delusion?

Cerberus

The one you linked to.

simchona

Delusion based on not being able to understand English fully.

tchrist

sighs

simchona

> Having once again reviewed the content of the comments, I see absolutely no grounds for your claim that you were discriminated against due to your gender (which is not stated anywhere, and therefore difficult to establish) or your race (which is also not stated anywhere, and therefore difficult to establish).

From Kit's answer to the meta question.

> As for the offensive language, I believe you misunderstood the commenter and were confused by the use-mention distinction. This set off a wicked spiral as everyone jumped on the bandwagon to attempt to clarify what was being said.

tchrist

Thank you.

Cerberus

01:48

OK.

tchrist

@sim It is hard to wade through that. I feel like it wears me down.

Cerberus

Okay, can anyone convince me not to vote to delete that question?

tchrist

So I may have averted my eyes before reading Kit’s answer, wanting just to run away.

@Cerberus Easy: You never delete questions.

Cerberus

?

simchona

@tchrist This could be a monumental moment of monumentalness.

tchrist

01:50

You’re the Good Cop of Hippocrates who first does no harm.

Cerberus

You're not exactly convincing me.

Voted.

Robusto

@Cerberus has a cock for Aesculapius.

Cerberus

Keep your cocks to yourself, thank you.

tchrist

ave

Cerberus

I'm not a morning person.

Robusto

01:51

I voted too.

Cerberus

Great.

Robusto

@Cerberus I only have the one. It's all I need.

Cerberus

Tchrist, you know your duty.

I have an alarm clock.

tchrist

Surely the morning would raise your interests.

Cerberus

The only thing the morning raises is my ire.

Robusto

01:53

You don't wake up with wood?

Cerberus

No. I don't wake up in the morning.

Robusto

But you do wake up, yes?

tchrist

Good, that’s the 2nd time you picked up on the proffered line today.

simchona

I leave for five minutes, and it becomes a sausage fest?

Cerberus

@tchrist I was ignoring your innuendo.

No need for Rob to explicate.

Robusto

01:54

Our sausages could use a buttered bun.

tchrist

@Cerberus What, an Italian enema?

Cerberus

@Robusto ! That is no way to talk to people.

tchrist

And now we have shitty coffee.

Cerberus

closes tab

Robusto

@Cerberus What? I'm talking about food. You telling me you don't eat?

Cerberus

01:55

Not in the morning! How hard can it be?

Never mind.

tchrist

Done.

Stop that.

Cerberus

Yay, it is gone.

Robusto

@Cerberus I don't know! How hard does it get?

tchrist

Ave rooster of the hood.

Cerberus

...

Robusto

01:56

Dot's right.

tchrist

Are not roosters aves?

Or maybe that is a grandpa rooster I’m greeting.

Cerberus

Phew, that deletion gave her a rep boost.

@tchrist But the vocative is not ave...

tchrist

@Cerberus It is if it is a grandpa rooster. :)

Cerberus

Then, yes.

tchrist

With all those chicks he keeps, you figure some are his grandchickies.

Robusto

01:59

Wow, the Obama emails are getting downright creepy. Just got one titled "Where's your family from?"

None of your effin' business.

tchrist

Why did you tell them your address?

Robusto

Robert --

I was brought to this country from Mexico when I was 2 years old.

I am an undocumented immigrant -- and I am living proof that our immigration system is broken.

For the first 17 years of my life, I slept on a couch. My mom worked three jobs to support our family.

I worked hard, too. I did my homework, participated in class, and earned the opportunity go to college. But after I enrolled, state law changed and many undocumented immigrants were forced to drop out. Suddenly they could no longer afford the education they were eager to work for.

I was brought to this country by my mother, who already lived in it.

Oh, and BTW: SNOWFLAKE => FLOW SNAKE

Just thought you might want to know.

And did you know Newark => Wanker? True.

Cerberus

Annoying. Does everybody get weird e-mails like that from their president?

Robusto

If they ever contributed, yes.

Cerberus

It sounds more like regular fraudulent spam.

But it's bed time.

Robusto

02:04

I know, right?

Cerberus

I must say goodbye.

Robusto

Au revoir.

tchrist

Sneak wolf.

Robusto

Lakes flown.

Cerberus

By the way, Indians came from Asia too, so the letter should just shut up.

poof

tchrist

02:05

Ask elf now.

Robusto

The dog poofed but nothing happened.

tchrist

He does that.

It’s like the opposite of Kit, sitting down at the bottom of the zombie stack with her invisible icon.

He stays on top but isn’t here.

-4

A: What does "up she rises" mean in the sea shanty "Drunken Sailor"?

I'm amazed that nobody has noted the transparent crudity of this shanty. The "drunken sailor" refers to a member of the crew suffereing erectile disfunction as a result of over indulgence and shanty suggests methods of solving it - hence "Hooray and up she rises"

pirate-english? Really? I think not.

Robusto

21

A: What does "up she rises" mean in the sea shanty "Drunken Sailor"?

According to dauntlessprivateers.org, there are five types of shanties: Capstan shanties: Sung while raising anchor. Also known as "stamp and go chanties" because sailors would stomp the deck while turning the capstan. Halyard shanties (Long Drag Shanty): Sung to the raising and lowering of sai...

In spite of the research and the image, this doesn't really answer the question.

tchrist

Right, what is rising?

Hellion’s is better, but is short and has no pictures.

tchrist