English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

tchrist

00:23

@Robusto That one ain’t purdy enuff.

      sub commify_series {
          my $sepchar = grep(/,/ => @_) ? ";" : ",";
          (@_ == 0) ? ''                                      :
          (@_ == 1) ? $_[0]                                   :
          (@_ == 2) ? join(" and ", @_)                       :
                      join("$sepchar ", @_[0 .. ($#_-1)], "and $_[-1]");
}

That one is better.

Whether it would pass code-review outside the Lisp community, I cannot tell you.

Can never get the indentation right.

Mitch

@Robusto I heard that.

@Robusto really? I talk about the first one. The second vowel is boring and isn't giving anybody any trouble. So what's the problem with that statement?

@Robusto I can't vouch for the quality of my English. I'm just worse at all the others.

Cerberus

00:56

Hello.

Robusto

Helloooo.

Mitch

ooooohhhhhhh......

Robusto

01:11

So that is what you are asking? Then this is a dupe in sheep's clothing. — Robusto 26 secs ago

-2

Q: Phrase for the construction "a, b, c, and d"

I'm looking for a concise phrase for the sentence construction "a, b, c, and d". That is, a comma-separated list of things, where the last comma is either replaced or accompanied by the word "and".

expressions

BTW, does anybody vote to close more questions than FumbleFingers? Every time I see a single close vote it is usually FF griping in the comments.

Cerberus

01:25

Yeah, he has become rather close happy.

How about "a standard enumeration"? — Cerberus 15 secs ago

MετάEd

01:49

@Robusto I don't know about more measured as number of votes, but I do vote to close a lot of questions percentagewise that I look at.

@Robusto Cerb hates it, I think.

Robusto

That's the way it goes.

Cerberus

I truly don't understand why people are motivated to close questions (to me it is a necessary chore at best), but wevs.

tchrist

02:07

@Cerberus Mammalian turf wars and exclusive-club mentality. Once they’ve made it into the Club, they expect the bouncer who used to keep throwing them out to redouble his effects at keeping others out. So they naturally cheer on his efforts.

Cerberus

@tchrist That may be part of it...but I also think some desire for purity and cleanliness is involved.

tchrist

Neat freaks?

Cerberus

Similar to many people's exaggerated fear of filth and taints.

Most Western people's hygiene standards are way beyond what is medically useful.

tchrist

Please don’t propagate the American stereotype that Europeans aren’t clean enough.

Cerberus

That's not what I'm propagating. And the hygiene hysteria exists in Europe too.

tchrist

02:12

There are jokes about Frenchmen who get given a bar of soap for Christmas having won themselves a lifetime supply. Ditto for toothpaste.

Cerberus

Heh.

My friend wouldn't let me taste raw pasta dough, can you believe it?

Because of the egg.

tchrist

Because there is raw egg in it?

Right.

Cerberus

Of course he has eaten my chocolate mousse plenty of times.

And uncooked meringue.

And mayonnaise.

Etc.

tchrist

He probably just doesn’t want you poking at his preparations before he is done with them. I get annoyed by people invading my kitchen when I’m cooking something up and them doing the fingerpokin thing all the time.

Cerberus

No, we were making the dough together.

In fact, I was busy cutting it and testing its consistency.

tchrist

02:15

A cook who will not sample his own wares is not to be trusted.

Cerberus

Well, tasting raw stuff or unmixed ingredients is not very useful, oftentimes.

Robusto

I've eaten raw eggs. Drop one in a beer, drink it down. Boom, breakfast.

Cerberus

Heh.

Delicious.

tchrist

Goldfish too, no doubt.

Robusto

Only the Pepperidge Farm kind.

tchrist

02:17

Yes, aquaculture is really big these days.

Robusto

I've eaten raw fish, of course. But also raw beef.

I draw the line at chicken and pork, however.

tchrist

Different issues in all those.

I’ve eaten raw flies.

Biking.

Cerberus

@Robusto Of course.

tchrist

Taught me to keep my mouth shut.

Cerberus

Raw beef and fish are normal.

tchrist

02:19

Raw beef is not "normal".

Cerberus

Raw chicken and pork are not only eww, but also said be unhealthy.

Yes it is normal.

tchrist

One must be very careful.

Cerberus

A rare steak will be partly raw.

Carpaccio.

Steak tartare.

Etc.

tchrist

For example, ground meat is guaranteed to be a problem because the contaminated outside is mixed around with the inside.

A steak is different.

Searing it on the outside suffices.

But mixing around for hamburger is the problem.

Cerberus

All I'm saying is that there is nothing unusual about eating raw beef.

And you don't need to sear beef.

tchrist

02:21

It is very unusual here. Most people have never done it.

Notice how all those dishes you named had funky ferrin names.

Cerberus

No carpaccio? No rare steaks? No steak tartare?

tchrist

Carpaccio is not English.

Cerberus

sigh

tchrist

Tartare is not English.

Cerberus

You are not English either, so just drop it.

tchrist

02:22

Yes I am.

You missed the discussion about Kebeckers and Pennsylvania Hollanders.

Cerberus

You are no Englisher than I am German or Indonesian.

tchrist

In Québec, anyone who is not ethnically French is called “English”.

Similarly, anyone who doesn’t ride around in those cute little horse-drawn buggies is called “English” by the Pennsylvania Dutch.

I knew you would love that.

Cerberus

You are right, context does not matter. It never does. I stand corrected.

Robusto

4 hours ago, by RegDwighт

So you watched your buddies die face down in mud to get called English by the Dutch. Seems about fair.

tchrist

Heard a whole story on NPR today about issues in Québec, and the way the Frenchers kept using the word “English” to describe anyone who wasn’t them was hilarious.

As though they were themselves French, too.

Robusto

02:26

What do you expect from Canardiens?

tchrist

If they are French, why does TV Cinq subtitle their films when shown in France?

They have turned French/English into something Manichean.

@Robusto The really funny thing about that comment is that these were the Dutch who are Germans.

Robusto

Deutsch, Dutch, Douche ... what's the diff?

tchrist

It seems there is a lot of confusion over terms of nationality.

The Welsh doesn’t call themselves Welsh, since it meant foreigner or something.

Robusto

It's from OE walus, I believe. Wéalas

tchrist

Koo koo ka choo.

Robusto

02:29

Which meant alien or foreigner.

Cerberus

@Robusto You would be so shocked if I dared mock your county like that...

tchrist

But good luck finding an American who can countenance a hard c in words involving Cymr- anything.

@Cerberus What, so now you’re defending the Germans, too?

Cerberus

Defending?

Robusto

The OE word is Wéalas, it seems.

tchrist

So much for the walrus theory.

Cerberus

02:32

We ought to be annexed by Großdeutschland.

tchrist

That too is an odd word.

Robusto

@Cerberus People mock the USA all the time. I am shocked not at all. Fly a plane into two of our skyscrapers—that I would find shocking.

Cerberus

Wasn't me!

But seriously, I have seen Americans act as though their national pride was hurt far more often.

Just an observation.

By the way, I was just thinking, does the Chinese army every carry out any real, non-trivial missions?

So far, it seems that, of the more powerful armies on earth, it's mostly Western armies that get any practice.

The Americans get plenty of practice, and many Europeans get some practice too.

But the Chinese?

And the Japanese?

I think the latter had a couple of soldiers in Iraq? Or didn't they?

Iran got some experience in the war against Iraq, but that was long ago.

Israel need not be mentioned.

Nor Russia.

tchrist

The Japanese aren't allowed.

Robusto

I wouldn't want to go to war with China or Russia. Hell, I wouldn't want to go to war with Belize. Fuck war.

tchrist

02:40

Or Cuba.

Robusto

But how about the Netherlands? Hmm ... tempting ...

Cerberus

Yeah, war is bad.

tchrist

We have to stop letting all these dialects get armies.

Cerberus

Don't worry, we are dismantling our army.

tchrist

Then you will no longer have a language.

Cerberus

02:41

We have just sold all of our 80 tanks.

tchrist

You will just another German dialect be.

Robusto

The cool thing about invading Holland is that their front-line troops would all be prostitutes. Clever strategy. We'd never see it coming.

Cerberus

Then what are we now?

tchrist

If the Danes are Germans who think they’re English, what does that make the Dutch?

Cerberus

@Robusto Then what, you throw hamburgers at them?

Robusto

02:42

I did say "Fuck war," didn't I? Prostitutes would help with that.

Cerberus

Ah, I see.

tchrist

The problem with Holland is that it is the land of holes. This is a problem for the dykes.

They leak.

@Robusto You mean comfort women and cabin boys.

@Cerberus There is a highly faluted term of rhetoric for what you just did there.

Cerberus

I only know the ordinary term, preterition. But I believe there is a less-used Greek term too.

But actually, that was not true preterition.

tchrist

I shall not mention Israel’s bellicosity.

Cerberus

Because I did not mention the essential fact about Israel.

So my phrasing was just a little loose, that's all.

tchrist

02:47

Plus ça change.

Cerberus

@tchrist Yeah, that would come closer to actual preterition.

tchrist

No wonder the barbarians slew the Greeks and Romans. They couldn’t stand their rhetoric.

I think we have questions about this matter.

Maybe even tags if we’re lucky.

"That part of our history detailing the military achievements which gave us our several possessions ... is a theme too familiar to my listeners for me to dilate on, and I shall therefore pass it by." Thucydides, "Funeral Oration"

Dilate?

Expand upon?

Mitch

Not-to-mention-ophasis?

tchrist

What, stressed on the antepenult?

Cerberus

@tchrist Yes.

Mitch

02:54

'What-what-what?

Cerberus

Wot wot?

Mitch

Tally ho?

MετάEd

What wot, what?

tchrist

Counting putes.

Mitch

I've never heard of the word 'preterition' before.

tchrist

02:55

suppresses unkindness

Mitch

paralipsis, proslepsis,...I want to say prolepsis but I'm sure that's not a thing.

tchrist

Nearly.

Mitch

@tchrist don't mention it.

Because I could always count on you!

tchrist

5

Q: Talking about not talking about the topic—name of figure of speech

Possible Duplicate: Is there a name for “I don't mean to…, but” phrases? Term for mentioning X by saying “I will not say X” I am looking for a name of a figure of speech which expresses a desire to recommend something by talking about not talking ab...

figures-of-speech antiphrasis

10

A: What is the origin of the phrase "not to mention ..."

The rhetorical, as opposed to etymological, origin is the device known as paralpsis, paraleipsis, paralepsis, (also praeteritio) meaning pretended omission for rhetorical effect, because in saying we won't mention X, of course we just did. Edit (by FumbleFingers): A later question on the same to...

Nice approach! Quoth Cicero: "I will not even mention the fact that you betrayed us in the Roman people by aiding Catiline." (Courtesy of Wikipedia.) — RegDwighт Sep 1 '10 at 2:19

MετάEd

@Mitch panegyric

tchrist

03:00

@MετάEd Trying to give him a seizure?

This is Too Localised (or perhaps just Off Topic). It's not about English as such - it's just a matter of having sufficient powers of understanding to recognise the metaphoric juxtaposition of social and physical "closeness". — FumbleFingers 4 hours ago

I am afraid he does have a real point.

Many of our questions are there simply because so many people are dull-witted.

Mitch

@tchrist ack!

tchrist

> An Australian teenager's picture of a Subway "Footlong" sandwich next to a tape measure has gone viral and inspired three lawsuits in the United States.

Like an Australian would have a clue about English units.

Considering that those are illegal there.

Cerberus

If you want to totally destroy your sanity, play this game:

►

tchrist

> "This is no different than buying a dozen eggs and getting 11," Zimmerman said. "You're buying a dozen inches and only getting 11." The lawsuits, which are seeking class-action status, are also suing for compensatory damages and injunctive relief for deceptive advertising against Subway sandwich shops and Subway's parent company, Doctor's Associates Inc.

> Subway Australia, responding to the photo posted on Subway's Facebook fanpage, had said that said the Footlong was a registered trademark that was "not intended to be a measurement of length."

See, they had to say that because it would be illegal to measure something in English.

More fucking Royales on their way: mark my words.

MετάEd

03:25

@Cerberus "Dangerously addictive"? Hmm ... I'll pass.

tchrist

We just had a red-flag warning in the middle of winter. That is insane.

MετάEd

@tchrist Wonder if Nebraska will turn back to a howling desert.

Sandhills (Nebraska)

The Sandhills, often written Sand Hills, is a region of mixed-grass prairie on grass-stabilized sand dunes in north-central Nebraska, covering just over one quarter of the state. Geography The boundaries of the Sandhills are variously defined by different organizations. Depending on the definition, the region's area can be as small as 19,600 mi² (50,760 km²) or as large as 23,600 mi² (61,100 km²). Dunes in the Sandhills may exceed 330 ft (100 m) in height. The average elevation of the region gradually increases from about 1,800 ft (550 m) in the east to a...

Cerberus

@MετάEd It's just a video, dude. No need to play it.

MετάEd

03:41

@Cerberus I was looking at the review.

Cerberus

Oh...

MετάEd

And in other news, Clorox does not understand how to measure bleach.

Cerberus

Hmm I think someone accidentally put an old book scan on that page.

MετάEd

I like teh ded fonts.

Cerberus

But, yeah, that's weird.

How can they miscalculate that stuff?

MετάEd

03:51

The bleach market is really confusing. They went away from dissolving chlorine gas Cl₂ in water to something safer, NaClO in water. But they stuck with the old product when it came to expressing the chlorine content. Everything is measured in terms of equivalency to chlorine gas.

So they confuse themselves. Plus they can't decide whether to measure things w/w or w/v.

Chemical industry is funny that way. There's a product out there used all the time called MSO: mineral seal oil. Want to guess why?

And along the same line, there's a product called "tall oil" or "tallol". Again, want to guess why?

Cerberus

Tall oil, I have heard of that.

Its meaning/origin is unguessable.

MετάEd

It's on Wikipedia.

Tall oil

Tall oil, also called "liquid rosin" or tallol, is a viscous yellow-black odorous liquid obtained as a by-product of the Kraft process of wood pulp manufacture when pulping mainly coniferous trees. The name originated as an anglicization of the Swedish "tallolja" ("pine oil"). Tall oil is the third largest chemical by-product in a Kraft mill after lignin and hemicellulose; the yield of crude tall oil from the process is in the range of 30 – 50 kg / ton pulp. It may contribute to 1.0 - 1.5% of the mill's revenue if not used internally. Manufacturing In the Kraft Process, high alkalinit...

We call it "tall oil" or "tallol" because that sounds like "tallow" which is what it substitutes for in industry.

Cerberus

Right.

MετάEd

Now try "mineral seal oil".

Cerberus

tries

fails

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

03:58

@Reg that lego video is excruciating

MετάEd

@Cerberus It's a petroleum use-alike for seal oil. There has not been an industrial market for seal oil for what, a hundred years? But that's still how we refer to the stuff we use today.

Cerberus

Seal, as in the animal?

Wow, Google Images is crazy.

I get a black man when I search for seals.

MετάEd

Yes. And that's my point about sodium hypochlorite. We're treating the modern product as if it were still chlorine gas in solution, which totally screws up everyone who tries to figure out the concentration, even the manufacturer. Because that's what it used to be.

Cerberus

We call them sea-dogs.

Zeehond.

MετάEd

@Cerberus Probably a navy man.

Cerberus

04:02

I don't think so.

It is the same man always. Probably some pop singer.

MετάEd

@Cerberus It's my stupid joke about navy seals.

And navy vs. black.

Just roll your eyes.

@Cerberus We call some of them sea lions.

Cerberus

@MετάEd It's not even a joke...and I know what navy seals are.

@MετάEd Ohh that was the joke.

is stupid

@MετάEd Oh, yes, zeeleeuwen are a different species, much bigger and less hairy, I believe.

Or at least they look darker...call them black seals, if you want.

Sea lion.

MετάEd

Water color, I assume.

What else?

I'm waiting for a non-human species to draw something representational or symbolic. Have any African apes done it?

Cerberus

Heh/

@MετάEd I...don't think so. Not sure. I should know this.

Nor any Asian apes, I think, right?

MετάEd

I guess the question is open, but some people claim chimps do it.

This is from 1997: nytimes.com/1997/11/08/arts/…

Cerberus

04:20

> When she draws a basketball, it is always just a scribble across the page. Apparently, Mr. Fouts says, she depicts not the shape of the ball but its motion. Of course, he adds, ''it requires some human interpretation.'' But what art doesn't these days?

This says a lot about certain kinds of modernist art.

> ''Why Cats Paint,'' a book published two years ago to mock the monkeys, gleefully discusses the putative symbolism of clawed chairs and the [a]esthetics of feline installation art, i.e., dead mice dumped artfully on the floor.

This is funny, and I agree with the moral.

Mahnax