English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

@Robusto I heard that.

@Robusto really? I talk about the first one. The second vowel is boring and isn't giving anybody any trouble. So what's the problem with that statement?

@Robusto I can't vouch for the quality of my English. I'm just worse at all the others.

12:56 AM

Hello.

Helloooo.

ooooohhhhhhh......

Q: Phrase for the construction "a, b, c, and d"

1:11 AM

So that is what you are asking? Then this is a dupe in sheep's clothing. — Robusto 26 secs ago

-2

I'm looking for a concise phrase for the sentence construction "a, b, c, and d". That is, a comma-separated list of things, where the last comma is either replaced or accompanied by the word "and".

expressions

BTW, does anybody vote to close more questions than FumbleFingers? Every time I see a single close vote it is usually FF griping in the comments.

1:25 AM

Yeah, he has become rather close happy.

How about "a standard enumeration"? — Cerberus 15 secs ago

1:49 AM

@Robusto I don't know about more measured as number of votes, but I do vote to close a lot of questions percentagewise that I look at.

@Robusto Cerb hates it, I think.

That's the way it goes.

I truly don't understand why people are motivated to close questions (to me it is a necessary chore at best), but wevs.

2:07 AM

@Cerberus Mammalian turf wars and exclusive-club mentality. Once they’ve made it into the Club, they expect the bouncer who used to keep throwing them out to redouble his effects at keeping others out. So they naturally cheer on his efforts.

@tchrist That may be part of it...but I also think some desire for purity and cleanliness is involved.

Neat freaks?

Similar to many people's exaggerated fear of filth and taints.

Most Western people's hygiene standards are way beyond what is medically useful.

Please don’t propagate the American stereotype that Europeans aren’t clean enough.

That's not what I'm propagating. And the hygiene hysteria exists in Europe too.

2:12 AM

There are jokes about Frenchmen who get given a bar of soap for Christmas having won themselves a lifetime supply. Ditto for toothpaste.

Heh.

My friend wouldn't let me taste raw pasta dough, can you believe it?

Because of the egg.

Because there is raw egg in it?

Right.

Of course he has eaten my chocolate mousse plenty of times.

And uncooked meringue.

And mayonnaise.

Etc.

He probably just doesn’t want you poking at his preparations before he is done with them. I get annoyed by people invading my kitchen when I’m cooking something up and them doing the fingerpokin thing all the time.

No, we were making the dough together.

In fact, I was busy cutting it and testing its consistency.

2:15 AM

A cook who will not sample his own wares is not to be trusted.

Well, tasting raw stuff or unmixed ingredients is not very useful, oftentimes.

I've eaten raw eggs. Drop one in a beer, drink it down. Boom, breakfast.

Heh.

Delicious.

Goldfish too, no doubt.

Only the Pepperidge Farm kind.

2:17 AM

Yes, aquaculture is really big these days.

I've eaten raw fish, of course. But also raw beef.

I draw the line at chicken and pork, however.

Different issues in all those.

I’ve eaten raw flies.

Biking.

@Robusto Of course.

Taught me to keep my mouth shut.

Raw beef and fish are normal.

2:19 AM

Raw beef is not "normal".

Raw chicken and pork are not only eww, but also said be unhealthy.

Yes it is normal.

One must be very careful.

A rare steak will be partly raw.

Carpaccio.

Steak tartare.

Etc.

For example, ground meat is guaranteed to be a problem because the contaminated outside is mixed around with the inside.

A steak is different.

Searing it on the outside suffices.

But mixing around for hamburger is the problem.

All I'm saying is that there is nothing unusual about eating raw beef.

And you don't need to sear beef.

2:21 AM

It is very unusual here. Most people have never done it.

Notice how all those dishes you named had funky ferrin names.

No carpaccio? No rare steaks? No steak tartare?

Carpaccio is not English.

sigh

Tartare is not English.

You are not English either, so just drop it.

2:22 AM

Yes I am.

You missed the discussion about Kebeckers and Pennsylvania Hollanders.

You are no Englisher than I am German or Indonesian.

In Québec, anyone who is not ethnically French is called “English”.

Similarly, anyone who doesn’t ride around in those cute little horse-drawn buggies is called “English” by the Pennsylvania Dutch.

I knew you would love that.

You are right, context does not matter. It never does. I stand corrected.

4 hours ago, by RegDwighт

So you watched your buddies die face down in mud to get called English by the Dutch. Seems about fair.

Heard a whole story on NPR today about issues in Québec, and the way the Frenchers kept using the word “English” to describe anyone who wasn’t them was hilarious.

As though they were themselves French, too.

2:26 AM

What do you expect from Canardiens?

If they are French, why does TV Cinq subtitle their films when shown in France?

They have turned French/English into something Manichean.

@Robusto The really funny thing about that comment is that these were the Dutch who are Germans.

Deutsch, Dutch, Douche ... what's the diff?

It seems there is a lot of confusion over terms of nationality.

The Welsh doesn’t call themselves Welsh, since it meant foreigner or something.

It's from OE walus, I believe. Wéalas

Koo koo ka choo.

2:29 AM

Which meant alien or foreigner.

@Robusto You would be so shocked if I dared mock your county like that...

But good luck finding an American who can countenance a hard c in words involving Cymr- anything.

@Cerberus What, so now you’re defending the Germans, too?

Defending?

The OE word is Wéalas, it seems.

So much for the walrus theory.

2:32 AM

We ought to be annexed by Großdeutschland.

That too is an odd word.

@Cerberus People mock the USA all the time. I am shocked not at all. Fly a plane into two of our skyscrapers—that I would find shocking.

Wasn't me!

But seriously, I have seen Americans act as though their national pride was hurt far more often.

Just an observation.

By the way, I was just thinking, does the Chinese army every carry out any real, non-trivial missions?

So far, it seems that, of the more powerful armies on earth, it's mostly Western armies that get any practice.

The Americans get plenty of practice, and many Europeans get some practice too.

But the Chinese?

And the Japanese?

I think the latter had a couple of soldiers in Iraq? Or didn't they?

Iran got some experience in the war against Iraq, but that was long ago.

Israel need not be mentioned.

Nor Russia.

The Japanese aren't allowed.

I wouldn't want to go to war with China or Russia. Hell, I wouldn't want to go to war with Belize. Fuck war.

2:40 AM

Or Cuba.

But how about the Netherlands? Hmm ... tempting ...

Yeah, war is bad.

We have to stop letting all these dialects get armies.

Don't worry, we are dismantling our army.

Then you will no longer have a language.

2:41 AM

We have just sold all of our 80 tanks.

You will just another German dialect be.

The cool thing about invading Holland is that their front-line troops would all be prostitutes. Clever strategy. We'd never see it coming.

Then what are we now?

If the Danes are Germans who think they’re English, what does that make the Dutch?

@Robusto Then what, you throw hamburgers at them?

2:42 AM

I did say "Fuck war," didn't I? Prostitutes would help with that.

Ah, I see.

The problem with Holland is that it is the land of holes. This is a problem for the dykes.

They leak.

@Robusto You mean comfort women and cabin boys.

@Cerberus There is a highly faluted term of rhetoric for what you just did there.

I only know the ordinary term, preterition. But I believe there is a less-used Greek term too.

But actually, that was not true preterition.

I shall not mention Israel’s bellicosity.

Because I did not mention the essential fact about Israel.

So my phrasing was just a little loose, that's all.

2:47 AM

Plus ça change.

@tchrist Yeah, that would come closer to actual preterition.

No wonder the barbarians slew the Greeks and Romans. They couldn’t stand their rhetoric.

I think we have questions about this matter.

Maybe even tags if we’re lucky.

"That part of our history detailing the military achievements which gave us our several possessions ... is a theme too familiar to my listeners for me to dilate on, and I shall therefore pass it by." Thucydides, "Funeral Oration"

Dilate?

Expand upon?

Not-to-mention-ophasis?

What, stressed on the antepenult?

@tchrist Yes.

2:54 AM

'What-what-what?

Wot wot?

Tally ho?

What wot, what?

Counting putes.

I've never heard of the word 'preterition' before.

2:55 AM

suppresses unkindness

paralipsis, proslepsis,...I want to say prolepsis but I'm sure that's not a thing.

Nearly.

@tchrist don't mention it.

Because I could always count on you!

Q: Talking about not talking about the topic—name of figure of speech

5

Possible Duplicate: Is there a name for “I don't mean to…, but” phrases? Term for mentioning X by saying “I will not say X” I am looking for a name of a figure of speech which expresses a desire to recommend something by talking about not talking ab...

figures-of-speech antiphrasis

10

A: What is the origin of the phrase "not to mention ..."

The rhetorical, as opposed to etymological, origin is the device known as paralpsis, paraleipsis, paralepsis, (also praeteritio) meaning pretended omission for rhetorical effect, because in saying we won't mention X, of course we just did. Edit (by FumbleFingers): A later question on the same to...

Nice approach! Quoth Cicero: "I will not even mention the fact that you betrayed us in the Roman people by aiding Catiline." (Courtesy of Wikipedia.) — RegDwighт Sep 1 '10 at 2:19

@Mitch panegyric

3:00 AM

@MετάEd Trying to give him a seizure?

This is Too Localised (or perhaps just Off Topic). It's not about English as such - it's just a matter of having sufficient powers of understanding to recognise the metaphoric juxtaposition of social and physical "closeness". — FumbleFingers 4 hours ago

I am afraid he does have a real point.

Many of our questions are there simply because so many people are dull-witted.

@tchrist ack!

> An Australian teenager's picture of a Subway "Footlong" sandwich next to a tape measure has gone viral and inspired three lawsuits in the United States.

Like an Australian would have a clue about English units.

Considering that those are illegal there.

If you want to totally destroy your sanity, play this game:

►

> "This is no different than buying a dozen eggs and getting 11," Zimmerman said. "You're buying a dozen inches and only getting 11." The lawsuits, which are seeking class-action status, are also suing for compensatory damages and injunctive relief for deceptive advertising against Subway sandwich shops and Subway's parent company, Doctor's Associates Inc.

> Subway Australia, responding to the photo posted on Subway's Facebook fanpage, had said that said the Footlong was a registered trademark that was "not intended to be a measurement of length."

See, they had to say that because it would be illegal to measure something in English.

More fucking Royales on their way: mark my words.

3:25 AM

@Cerberus "Dangerously addictive"? Hmm ... I'll pass.

We just had a red-flag warning in the middle of winter. That is insane.

@tchrist Wonder if Nebraska will turn back to a howling desert.

Sandhills (Nebraska)

The Sandhills, often written Sand Hills, is a region of mixed-grass prairie on grass-stabilized sand dunes in north-central Nebraska, covering just over one quarter of the state. Geography The boundaries of the Sandhills are variously defined by different organizations. Depending on the definition, the region's area can be as small as 19,600 mi² (50,760 km²) or as large as 23,600 mi² (61,100 km²). Dunes in the Sandhills may exceed 330 ft (100 m) in height. The average elevation of the region gradually increases from about 1,800 ft (550 m) in the east to a...

@MετάEd It's just a video, dude. No need to play it.

3:41 AM

@Cerberus I was looking at the review.

Oh...

And in other news, Clorox does not understand how to measure bleach.

Hmm I think someone accidentally put an old book scan on that page.

I like teh ded fonts.

But, yeah, that's weird.

How can they miscalculate that stuff?

3:51 AM

The bleach market is really confusing. They went away from dissolving chlorine gas Cl₂ in water to something safer, NaClO in water. But they stuck with the old product when it came to expressing the chlorine content. Everything is measured in terms of equivalency to chlorine gas.

So they confuse themselves. Plus they can't decide whether to measure things w/w or w/v.

Chemical industry is funny that way. There's a product out there used all the time called MSO: mineral seal oil. Want to guess why?

And along the same line, there's a product called "tall oil" or "tallol". Again, want to guess why?

Tall oil, I have heard of that.

Its meaning/origin is unguessable.

It's on Wikipedia.

Tall oil

Tall oil, also called "liquid rosin" or tallol, is a viscous yellow-black odorous liquid obtained as a by-product of the Kraft process of wood pulp manufacture when pulping mainly coniferous trees. The name originated as an anglicization of the Swedish "tallolja" ("pine oil"). Tall oil is the third largest chemical by-product in a Kraft mill after lignin and hemicellulose; the yield of crude tall oil from the process is in the range of 30 – 50 kg / ton pulp. It may contribute to 1.0 - 1.5% of the mill's revenue if not used internally. Manufacturing In the Kraft Process, high alkalinit...

We call it "tall oil" or "tallol" because that sounds like "tallow" which is what it substitutes for in industry.

Right.

Now try "mineral seal oil".

tries

fails

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:58 AM

@Reg that lego video is excruciating

@Cerberus It's a petroleum use-alike for seal oil. There has not been an industrial market for seal oil for what, a hundred years? But that's still how we refer to the stuff we use today.

Seal, as in the animal?

Wow, Google Images is crazy.

I get a black man when I search for seals.

Yes. And that's my point about sodium hypochlorite. We're treating the modern product as if it were still chlorine gas in solution, which totally screws up everyone who tries to figure out the concentration, even the manufacturer. Because that's what it used to be.

We call them sea-dogs.

Zeehond.

@Cerberus Probably a navy man.

4:02 AM

I don't think so.

It is the same man always. Probably some pop singer.

@Cerberus It's my stupid joke about navy seals.

And navy vs. black.

Just roll your eyes.

@Cerberus We call some of them sea lions.

@MετάEd It's not even a joke...and I know what navy seals are.

@MετάEd Ohh that was the joke.

is stupid

@MετάEd Oh, yes, zeeleeuwen are a different species, much bigger and less hairy, I believe.

Or at least they look darker...call them black seals, if you want.

Sea lion.

Water color, I assume.

What else?

I'm waiting for a non-human species to draw something representational or symbolic. Have any African apes done it?

Heh/

@MετάEd I...don't think so. Not sure. I should know this.

Nor any Asian apes, I think, right?

I guess the question is open, but some people claim chimps do it.

This is from 1997: nytimes.com/1997/11/08/arts/…

4:20 AM

> When she draws a basketball, it is always just a scribble across the page. Apparently, Mr. Fouts says, she depicts not the shape of the ball but its motion. Of course, he adds, ''it requires some human interpretation.'' But what art doesn't these days?

This says a lot about certain kinds of modernist art.

> ''Why Cats Paint,'' a book published two years ago to mock the monkeys, gleefully discusses the putative symbolism of clawed chairs and the [a]esthetics of feline installation art, i.e., dead mice dumped artfully on the floor.

This is funny, and I agree with the moral.

Mahnax

4:42 AM

Evening, squire.

4:55 AM

Do you guys think dictatorship is always bad?

5:20 AM

Depends on what you mean by "bad"...

aedia λ

5:44 AM

Great, now I want to eat rare steak and go examine my household bleach. Must sleep...

5:56 AM

Haha sounds like a great combo.

8:07 AM

Morning.

In programming, some languages do not have specific data types, others have. For example "function func(x,y)" vs "void func(double x, double y)" What could be an approriate name for parameters that are defined by a specific data type? I thought of type-bound parameter or type-related parameter.

Any suggestions?

8:25 AM

@Em1 one that has types

for example languages like Java, C++. They are called Strongly typed languages

On the other hand, languages like Javascript, PHP and Python. They do not have specific types for variables and functions. They are called Loosely typed languages

@TemporaryNickName I don't mean the language.

I mean a name for the parameter itself ;)

I think you can just call them

loosely typed parameters

Or strongly typed parameters? Sure.

Yeah,

vise versa

And... Now the master question. What if I don't know which type it is, and I look for a generic name including loosely and strongly typed parameters... That's what I actually have respectively looking for.

8:31 AM

wha?

I'm writing an interface which will be used for both kinds of languages. And I don't know which one it is. But I allow to set type to "none"

Or "not defined" or whatever...

They have that feature in C#

They can declare variables using var

But also the language allows you to declare data types as well

Yep.

I personally don't like this

because it even makes the language confusing

Me, too.

8:33 AM

I like Java or C++ in this case because they are die-hard strongly typed languages

It's just for lazy programmers who don't want to think about which type they will get but it's much more easier to read that code if there's a type given.

9:51 AM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I know, right? I'm at part seven now. Watching that Asian guy trying to get 2×6 plates off an 8×16 plate using just his bare fingers (he even specifically cut the fingernails the day before!) was inducing physical pain, and not just on his fingers. I was literally jumping around the room shouting, "get a 2×4 brick already, moron, and the plate will come off on first try!" Meanwhile he almost broke his hand.

Were the plates red?

Black on light bley.

Then the blood won't be so bad.

Oh.

Next time, he should use red.

Then like eight minutes later the other guy had to put a 2×3 plate atop a 2×3 brick and went on a long tirade how this was obviously something you'd never be able to undo. The sound of me rolling eyes must have been heard in South America.

Ugh.

I would use my teeth.

Or perhaps fire.

Or a sledgehammer.

How would you do it?

9:58 AM

Just a second 2×3 brick.

user19161

@reg Hi salesman!

@RegDwighт And then it would be stuck to the second brick?

No. Then you'd use the lever effect.

Physics.

user19161

Lever is just common sense, no need to invoke physics.

►

See how easy it is?

And that's two plates

It's even easier when one of them is a brick.

10:01 AM

I don't remember how I dealt with difficult pieces.

Teeth, of course. Everybody did that.

OK.

user19161

How is everyone doing at ELL? Anyone got 10k already?

I do remember using other bricks.

> I am searching a software or a web from where I enter the phrase or a particular action and get a word related to that whole phrase.

10:08 AM

> Uploaded on May 6, 2010 — Mean to Me by Annette Hanshaw 1929 from the movie Sita Sings The Blues by Nina Paley.

►

I know the mean pineapples are mean to you.

10:30 AM

Very good.

Haven't listened to Ms Hanshaw for a while.

10:48 AM

You made me listen to her, and now I can't stop.

I knew one or two songs subconsciously.

Like "Daddy, Come Home", and the one where she sings "now, tell me confidentially: ain't he sweet?", about some man she adores (you don't say!).

I've no idea if I do. This is clearly a voice to remember more than just subconsciously.

I mean I had heard those before without knowing what they were.

But it didn't ring a bell with me when I first watched the cartoon.

For example, "Daddy, Come Home" is part of the soundtrack of Bioshock, the PC game.

Hmm.

@Cerberus yeah I may have heard some song perhaps. But probably by a different interpreter.

10:51 AM

Anything's possible.

@Cerberus ah, that explains it. Everyone on this planet has played that game. I never have.

I have actually barely played it myself, and I don't know whether I heard it there or somewhere else; I just noticed that it was among the "related videos".

Hm.

But film soundtracks alone!

And documentaries, series, commercials...

Now I have to go buy milk.

Later!

CU

10:54 AM

poof

Q: Does a pedestrian walk 'in' the road, or 'on' the road (both are correct, but which is right?)

0

Having a bit of a debate about this with some foreign colleagues of mine. I've always used the phrase 'I'm walking in the road', they think that you should say 'I'm walking on the road'.. I'm not 100% sure why I use the word 'in', but there must be a reason for it! So... which is right?

grammaticality

Weird.

So the pineapples use "on the road", while the native speaker uses "in the road"? What is this, Bizzarro World?

The weird thing is they always think there can be only one. Everything is boolean.

Just can't wait to get in the road again.
The life I love is makin' music with my friends
And I can't wait to get in the road again.

Just because both could be used doesn’t mean they are interchangeable.

Children are told not to play in the street.

It is a different thing than being on one’s way.

One drives on the street, not in it. One plays in the street, not on it.

Yeah in the street is inexceptionable. But in the road? I would've noticed.

11:03 AM

In the road I do not know that I can make a sentence with.

A fork in the road. A bend in the road.

But not, perhaps, a dog in the road.

So I was wrong. I’m always wrong.

Fascinating.

Beetles: “Why don’t we do it in the road?”

You're working on an answer? Cuz otherwise I'm so stealing the image for a comment.

No, no answer. Go for it.

I think things that are in the road aren’t going anywhere.

Things that are on the road, are.

A hole in the road is the only place it could be, not on. A painted marking, on the other hand, would be on the road, not in it.

> "Steady down, there! Get up, Marker ; stay in the road. Come on then ! Step out a little. You'll soon have enough." It was promptly evident that the horses both recognized the voice of the new driver and felt hi's firm touch upon the lines.

That’s from 1922, though.

People are allowed to be 90-years old.

Hi's is nice. I will torment people with it.

11:19 AM

I think I’ve slept 21 out of the last 28 hours.

But it had been two weeks since I’d gotten a full night’s sleep.

I can’t join the private beta. My normal email is screwed up, with no fix in sight.

I can send you an invite to a throwaway address.

boulderad0@yahoo.com

Hold on.

that is a zero.

I'll pasta.

"Invite sent".

11:26 AM

Thanks.

I’m having veggie corn dogs for breakfast in celebration of finally sleeping.

Lecker.

With mustard.

They say that old people get up earlier than teens, but I always got up at 3 or 4 in the morning in high school, so I think it is just how I’m made. I certainly don’t choose to be this way. Not that I particularly mind.

I've been eating a lot of mustard lately.

In fact I never ate any mustard at all with the exception of the last two weeks.

What is the occasion? Corn dog harvest time over there? :)

And which kind of mustard is it?

I dunno. I just felt like being all into mustard all of a sudden.

@tchrist Düsseldorfer.