English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Robusto

21:00

What is your choice for dinner tonight? Do you view dinner as a goal? — Robusto 9 secs ago

Kudos if you can guess the significance of this newspaper front page. Forward, into the past!

@RegDwighт, @tchrist, @Cerberus ^

tchrist

0

Q: Does periphrastic mean bogus?

English sometimes has several different ways of expressing the same thing. For example, it can form a possessive either by using an old case inflection: The dog’s tail was always wagging. Or it can do so periphrastically: The tail of the dog was always wagging. Those are both possessives...

@Cerberus That’ll get Lawler and Barrie positively frothing at the mouth as they invoke St Pullum the Politico.

Robusto

Looks like you did the full Lawler there. Boldface, italics, italicized boldface, different font sizes — am I leaving anything out?

tchrist

Monospace.

Robusto

21:15

See if you can guess, without checking the edit list, what I edited in your question.

tchrist

This no-fucking-future-tense things has pissed me off for at least a year here.

It interferes with understanding. Let them say inflection if they mean inflection.

I’m guessing you removed some Lawlerism.

Something misformatted.

Robusto

Nope.

Straight-out punctuation error.

Cerberus

@Robusto The significance? I don't know, I forgot what happened in 1876. Not the Parisian Commune?

Robusto

Can't you do a little research before asking a question here? ¬_¬ — Robusto 38 secs ago

Cerberus

A German Socialist Newspaper. I don't know what you are looking for.

tchrist

21:19

@Robusto Was it the Powell Doctrine that said only invade when you have overwhelming force?

Robusto

@tchrist Go ahead and look. You'll never catch it.

Cerberus

The text is too small to read.

Robusto

@tchrist Like, shock and awe, dude.

@Cerberus It may be pretty hard to guess.

tchrist

@Cerberus Rocket. Just call it Rocket. Arugula is too hard to say.

Robusto

@Cerberus It is the publication in which a certain author's first short story and first novel were published. And that should be enough of a hint.

Cerberus

21:22

What?

Marx? Engels?

I didn't know they wrote novels to be honest...

Nietzsche?

I am just guessing.

Robusto

His politics were similar to Marx and Engels, but not exact.

Cerberus

Lenin?

Robusto

Er war deutscher.

Cerberus

Nicht der Hitler?

Der war noch zu jung.

Robusto

Actually, his real identity is a mystery. Now that should simply give it away.

Cerberus

21:24

Uhh...

Robusto

He wrote under a nom-de-plume.

Cerberus

Rosa Luxemburg?

Her friend?

Robusto

Nooooo.

Cerberus

I thought Rosa was a woman.

tchrist

@Robusto Fletcher Christian.

Cerberus

21:26

@Robusto (The correct term is nom de guerre btw.)

Robusto

Stop trying to be cute.

tchrist

bats eyes mercilessly

Robusto

B. Traven

B. Traven (February 23, 1882 – March 26, 1969) was the pen name of a presumably German novelist, whose real name, nationality, date and place of birth and details of biography are all subject to dispute. A rare certainty is that B. Traven lived much of his life in Mexico, where the majority of his fiction is also set—including The Treasure of the Sierra Madre (1927), which was adapted for the Academy Award winning film of the same name in 1948. Virtually every detail of Traven's life has been disputed and hotly debated. There were many hypotheses on the true identity of B. Traven, some ...

Cerberus

Nom de plume is like Handy.

tchrist

Handy is like Cell.

Robusto

21:27

Handy is like 'Andy, only in Greek or Cockney.

Cerberus

@Robusto I have to admit I don't know Traven, sorry.

@tchrist Where do they say Cell?

tchrist

@Cerberus Merique.

Cerberus

We say telefoon, or GSM, or 06, or mobiel.

Robusto

@Cerberus Did you never see The Treasure of the Sierra Madre?

tchrist

A mobile is a cute little thing that hangs from a thread with lotsa little cute parts.

Cerberus

21:28

@tchrist C'est où? Non pas l'Amerique? On dit "cell phone" là-bas, je crois?

tchrist

Yes, but usually just cell.

Cerberus

@tchrist Yes, that is also a mobiel.

Robusto

Well, I upvoted your monstrous question, but I did it proleptically. Do we have a proleptic tense?

Cerberus

@Robusto Alas, no.

Haha.

@tchrist Bien.

Robusto

@Cerberus One of the great movies of the 20th century.

Cerberus

21:29

Then how is Handy like Cell?

Handy is pseudo-English.

Nom de plume is pseudo-French.

tchrist

@Robusto Thanks. I doubt it is headed for supercolliderdom anyway.

Cerberus

@Robusto Even better than Titanic?

ducks

Robusto

@Cerberus I think thefreedictionary.com/nom+de+plume

tchrist

A handle is a nom-de-something.

Robusto

A handle is a nom de bucket.

Cerberus

21:30

@Robusto You think what? It is a Handy.

Just use nom de guerre.

If you want to sound learnèd, don't use anything pseudo!

Robusto

@Cerberus It is an English word. I don't care what the French think. And I will use whatever words I like, tyvm.

Cerberus

Many Englisher pedants will disapprove as well.

Robusto

@Cerberus I don't have to pretend to be learned, especially around people who never heard of B. Traven.

tchrist

votes for Englishest

Cerberus

Suit yourself.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

21:31

> Pour les activités liées à l'écriture (écrivains, journalistes de la presse écrite, etc.) on parle plutôt de nom de plume

from fr.wikipedia

tchrist

Ça suffit.

Robusto

@Cerberus I saw episode 1 of season 3 of Downton Abbey last night. All I have to say is, this Crawley fellow, he certainly runs into people who want to bestow inheritances upon him, doesn't he?

Cerberus

@Robusto Why can't we have that? Then we won't need to know what "week-end" means either, like Granny.

Robusto

@Cerberus I do think Shirley MacLaine tends to unstuffy those musty English rooms quite nicely, though.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It might be a modern Anglicism in French, or it might be simply incorrect. Fowler and Burchfield advise against it.

@Robusto She is sort of funny.

Robusto

21:36

@Cerberus Fowler ... who cares what Fowler thinks?

Cerberus

@Robusto A bit annoying, though. Don't you feel for Maggie?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus fowler advises against it ... in French? or in english

Cerberus

En Anglais, naturellement!

Robusto

@Cerberus "Never feel sorry for a man who owns a plane." — Charles Morse, The Edge

Cerberus

She owns a lot more than the Crawleys at that moment.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

21:37

sure. But you said it was pseudo-french. It doesn't look pseudo to me.

Cerberus

And they stand to lose everything.

Robusto

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Exactement.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Just be aware.

Robusto

@Cerberus Well, I find it hard to shed a tear.

Cerberus

I wish there were an alternative to the horrible Dutch spelling intrige, pronounced as if it were French.

So ugly.

But intrigue is just impossible in Dutch, alas.

Robusto

21:39

@Cerberus I thought only Jews had self-loathing crises. You're saying the Dutch do as well?

Cerberus

@Robusto Why!

@Robusto Everyone does.

Robusto

@Cerberus Because!

tchrist

@Cerberus Not America. Unfortunately.

Cerberus

But!

tchrist

Out?

Cerberus

21:40

If you like the series, surely you must like the house?

tchrist

Sequihuh?

Cerberus

You will cry when they lose it, I promise.

@tchrist It is rather like one half hates the other half.

Robusto

@Cerberus Uhhh ... spoiler alert?

Cerberus

Never mind.

I may be lying.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well, I probably wouldn't use it in English for the same reason that I don't use insufficiently-anglicized latin phrases.

Robusto

21:41

@Cerberus I know you're lying. Your lips are moving.

Cerberus

@Robusto There you go.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Very well, then.

Robusto

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It is perfect for supercilious comments in chat.

tchrist

@Cerberus But not entirely symmetrically. The winners write the history — and move on. The losers never forget.

Cerberus

Uhh but no side ever wins.

It's ying and yang, Demeter and Hades.

tchrist

And the Civil War never ends.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

21:42

@Robusto I get enough supersilliness, thank you.

Robusto

@Cerberus Tell that to the Barca family.

Cerberus

The who?

Robusto

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But do you get enough Super Silly String Theory?

Cerberus

I only know Barça, and not very well.

Robusto

@Cerberus Hamilcar Barca and fils?

Cerberus

21:43

C'est qui?

I do like the name Hamilcar.

Robusto

Hamilcar Barca

Hamilcar Barca or Barcas (c. 275 – 228 BC) was a Carthaginian general and statesman, leader of the Barcid family, and father of Hannibal, Hasdrubal and Mago. He was also father-in-law to Hasdrubal the Fair. The name Hamilcar (Punic-Phoenician ḥmlqrt, "brother of Melqart") was a common name for Carthaginian men. The name Brq (or Baraq) means "thunderbolt" in the Punic language and is thus equivalent to the epithet or cognomen Keraunos, common among many contemporary Greek commanders. The word remains in Arabic and Hebrew with the same meaning. Hamilcar commanded the Carthaginian land for...

Tell me you don't know who that is.

Meysam

what is the meaning of "tidy" in "... or that there could be such solace to the soul in wall-paper and framed lithographs, and bright-colored tidies and lamp-mats..."

Cerberus

Oh, I didn't know he was called Barca. I know Hamilcar of course.

Robusto

You're the classical scholar ... supposedly. How you not know that?

Cerberus

I don't know second and third names of every single person who ever lived in Antiquity, sadly.

Robusto

21:45

@Cerberus Slacker.

Cerberus

@Meysam A furniture cover.

@Robusto grins foolishly

Meysam

and "lamp-mat" what's it? (at the time there has been probably no electricity)

Robusto

A lamp-mat would have been a decorative piece of cloth underneath an oil lamp which would catch spillover oil and keep it from spoiling the finish of furniture. Or just to look attractive. Decorative. You know.

Cerberus

@Meysam And you probably mean "at the time there was".

Meysam

@Cerberus hmm, I don't know. whatever

@Robusto tankio

Cerberus

21:53

@Meysam You are describing something that happened at a moment/period in the past that has ended.

And it did not end very recently.

So was, not has been.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Robusto No, but I did get some super silly putty

Meysam

@Cerberus You are right. So maybe I meant "there had been"

what is what-not? "and varnished what-nots, with sea-shells and books and china vases on them" is it something that books can be placed on it?

Robusto

Gotta c'myewt. Cya.

Meysam

what's the meaning of "score" in "and the score of little unclassifiable tricks and touches that a woman's hand distributes about a home"

context: classiclit.about.com/library/bl-etexts/mtwain/bl-mtwain-cal.htm

tchrist

22:17

Gosh, Mitch has called in the cavilry.

@Mitch Oh noes! You’ve called in the cavilry! :) Correct me if I’m wrong, but you appear to be saying that those who claim such things are engaging in “captious and frivolous objections; to object, dispute, or find fault unfairly or without good reason” — that their objections are “fitted to ensnare or perplex in argument; designed to entrap or entangle by subtlety; fallacious, sophistical.” Is that right? — tchrist 1 min ago

Matt Эллен

22:35

ok sleep. you win this round.

tchrist

Sleep?

Sleep won?

Good thing, that.

Cerberus

22:51

@Meysam If you say "there had been", you imply that the period of "no electricity" had already ended at the time of the story.

So it should be was. At the time, there was no electricity.

@Meysam A what-not can be a stand with shelves: dictionary.reference.com/browse/what-not Dictionary.com is quite good!

tchrist

@Cerberus Sigh. FF is being argumentative, and missing the point.

I think this is Not Constructive. It's not actually asking about the meaning of periphrasis, and I don't see we're going to get anywhere debating whether or not English has a "proper" future tense. — FumbleFingers 28 mins ago

Cerberus

@Meysam A score can be 20; colloquially, it just means "a large number". It comes from when people used to make cuts ("scores") in wood to count numbers.

@tchrist Don't worry, it's just one vote. Most people will be too lazy to read your entire question and reach the "close" button.

I am still in the middle of reading it myself, but I'm making a quiche...

tchrist

Security through Polonian prose.

Quiche. For supper, then? I need to make fancy cornbread muffins.

Cerberus

Why Polonian?

As in Polish?

You "need" to make muffins?

This is for dinner/supper, yes. I'm a bit late.

I ate some syrup waffles when came home from work, so I wasn't very hungry.

The best thing you can get here btw.

And possibly in the world.

tchrist

@Cerberus This one:

3

A: Opposite of "straight talk"

In the noble spirit of one immortal orator, who said: This business is well ended. My liege, and madam, to expostulate What majesty should be, what duty is, Why day is day, night night, and time is time, Were nothing but to waste night, day and time. Therefore, since brevity is the ...

Cerberus

23:01

tchrist

@Cerberus This is the same need as people use when they say “I need to get laid.” It’s the wanty kind of need.

Cerberus

I know.

I was going along with your mild irony.

I needed a quiche like a dying man needs water.

So where does this Polonian come from?

tchrist

Polonius.

See my straight-talk answer. It will make sense.

Security through prolixity, if you would.

Cerberus

Oh, that is Polonius talking? Hamlet, right?

Hamlet, of course.

It has been so long since I last read Hamlet.

tchrist

Oh aye.

It’s the source of the famous refrain, “brevity is the soul of wit”.

Dripping with irony, given who said it, and how.

Cerberus

23:10

I know that expression.

I didn't know/remember it came from Hamlet.

Robusto

0

Q: What is the typography term which refers to the usage of bold, italics, and underline styles simultaneously?

I remember seeing such a word before, but I can't for the life of me remember what it was. I'm googling and having no luck. The classic web comic Pokey the Penguin used this technique quite a bit.

typography

tchrist

I saw that.

Robusto

If you answer "Lawler" I'll upvote it.

tchrist

I also saw a will–vs–be-going-to question that I didn’t know which of the 33 related questions was the canonical dupe for. I’m sure if @Reg were here, he’d’ve been on it in a flash.

I had a comment that I aborted that said: 1) an abomination 2) Christmas-tree–packet typography 3) Lawlerism.

Cerberus

16

Q: Whose tense is it, anyway?

I have questions which perhaps should be posted to Linguistics.SE; but since my primary concern is to discover what terminology in discussing English grammar and usage on ELU (and in similar contexts), I hope I may be allowed to post them here. Back in the early ‘60s, when I was learning to dist...

terminology tense aspect mood

Have you seen this question btw?

tchrist

23:23

It’s in the see-also section.

And now I have two downvotes.

Fine, I’ll just edit the fucking tag wiki.

Cerberus

Aww.

tchrist

Since when did “compound tense” become an oxymoron?

Cerberus

Since someone picked a random but specific definition to exclude all others.

tchrist

I think you are right that this is agenda-driven, but I just do not understand what the hell they stand to gain.

Except to sell their books.

Which I hope is not it.

Cerberus

It's just "I picked this and I stick with it".

That's the agenda.

Or those are the agenda, but even I do not say that.

tchrist

23:25

I get so damned tired of all the Pullum worship.

Cerberus

Nor this is the agendum.

tchrist

Try meta.

Cerberus

@tchrist And I!

tchrist

Er. That isn’t English, is it?

Goal.

Cerberus

But the answers to that question I linked to are fairly sensible. They make a choice, they explain it, and they agree that it is relative.

> Aren’t these all tenses? Or does periphrastic actually mean “bogus” or “virtual” — or more to the point, “a lie”?

You might want to rephrase this.

It is a bit...tendentious.

Makes people vote your question down and complain like FF.

Latin conjugation

Latin verbs have four main patterns of conjugation. As in a number of other languages, most Latin verbs have an active voice and a passive voice. There also exist deponent and semi-deponent Latin verbs (verbs with a passive form but active meaning), as well as defective verbs (verbs with a perfect form but present meaning). Sometimes the verbs of the third conjugation with a present stem on -ǐ are regarded as a separate pattern of conjugation, and are called the fifth conjugation. Conjugation is the creation of derived forms of a verb from basic forms or principal parts. It may be affecte...

tchrist

23:31

Well yes, I suppose I could indeed employ the arts of casuistry to better hide my invective against others’ cavilling. :)

Cerberus

This Wiki section is not very good.

tchrist

Not surprising. I keep finding the not-good problem.

Cerberus

@tchrist ...because cavilling generally seen as NARQ or not constructive. You know what people are like...

@tchrist The problem is 1.) that they do not explain why hortatus sum is not periphrastic to them, and 2.) that portandus sum is not normally considered periphrastic.

tchrist

23:56

@Cerb Ok, molly-coddling edit now applied.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…