English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

@Mechanicalsnail Apparently so — provided you are a moderator or a 20k user. Otherwise, it is marked as owned by Community.

Because everybody else requires community approval on their edit.

12:28 AM

So WTF, @Kit, do you only put bounties on questions I've already answered? I mean, what's up with that?

She doesn’t want you widening your lead over Barrie.

12:57 AM

@tchrist

woops; meant to @Robusto for Superdawg.

1:18 AM

Howdy guys, could I ask you a question about stylistics?

@cornbreadninja Hah, nice.

@SunnyBoyNY Do you mean style?

ups

Yeah, that

is what I meant but did not write

I am writing a statement of purpose to a local grad school

and I am completely certain of this sentence:

"The nature of my professional occupation has made me pay attention to memory allocation and computational efficiency."

How does that sound to you?

"My job involves paying special attention to memory allocation and computational efficiency."

Thanks. But... hmm... why do you prefer to use present simple tense as opposed to present perfect?

Because I'm good at writing.

1:28 AM

Not really the question I expected but ok... The truth is that my writing could get a little better

@SunnyBoyNY Have a look at my recent blog article.

@SunnyBoyNY You mean not really the answer you expected.

Yup, the "answer" I expected.

Thnx.

I like the word protean. Had I not taken the GRE, I would not have a clue what even the headline means

Is there a better way of saying "I performed research on..."? That sounds a little bit old-fashioned and official

Never use performed.

How about "I researched ..."?

You say did research or researched.

Unless you were in a circus.

Then you may use performed.

1:35 AM

What about this site: groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/…

Just keep it simple. Simple is good.

No, I hate performing. Too shy for that

@SunnyBoyNY Lame.

While attending Union College, I performed research on facial emotion recognition technology under the supervision ->

Just don’t say performed.

1:36 AM

While attending Union College, I researched facial emotion recognition technology under the supervision...

Really.

What does “while attending” buy you that “at” doesn’t?

oh gosh, you guys have ganged up on me

Two do not a gang make.

Sure, Mr. Yoda

Though...

That is not Yoda talk.

Don’t make me Teach you.

1:37 AM

Enlighten me...

Anyway, "while attending" sounds more active and positive

More syllables, bad.

At Union College, I researched facial emotion recognition technology under the supervision... sounds it a little bit too mundane, does is not?

@Robusto that is right next to Bob Chinns Crab House, but appears to pre-date it.

Even crabs have predators.

@cornbreadninja It reminds me of the Dog 'n' Suds that used to be near there. Or was it an A&W?

Q: Why is "xxxx doth not a yyyy make" considered valid English?

1:39 AM

2

Reading doth not a writer make. This sounds all wrong so why it is acceptable to use? The word order looks to be all out sequence (Object-Subject-Verb). It should be "reading does not make you a writer" (Object-Verb-Subject). And if this is Shakespearian, when and how did the word order i...

@Robusto Those were different?

@Robusto No idea.

Yup.

NS? english.stackexchange.com/q/97092/18399

Well, we had both at different times in the same building in Geneva. One must have bought out the other.

@cornbreadninja I’ve been flagging his ass since morning.

@tchrist I used to get a lot of flags off of him.

1:42 AM

They’re keeping Their eye on him.

Correcting my essay will great you make...

Interesting stuff that Shakespearan prehistoric english

Nope.

First of all, “doth not a WTF make” is not anything like what you just tried to say.

Secondly, Shakespeare is by very definition Modern English.

Thirdly, “prehistoric” means before writing.

Fourthly, the word English is always capitalized when used in this sense.

Fifthly, the word is Shakespearean.

Sixthly, the phrase is an established idiom.

A little bit pedantic are we today?

That had better be a mouse in your pocket.

To suffer not fools gladly doth not a pedant make.

You people really like to use idioms, don't you

Sure, you are pedantic, not me

1:50 AM

That is improperly conjugated.

I am particular. You are pedantic. He is a pain in the ass.

Gosh, you are pedantic, unlike me

Euphemisms are unnecessary here. You may call me by my proper title.

pain in the ass?

mr. meticulous?

Minced oaths will get you nowhere.

Ok... so why don't I simply post a sentence that is "definitely wrong and butchers the Modern English* and propose a fix?

Such as...

Using Principal Component Analysis for data compression and Linear Hybrid Discriminant for separating n-dimensional data-point clusters allowed us to increase the efficiency and reduce calculation time

proposed fix:: *The use of Principal... *

1:54 AM

This is not the résumé-rewriting chat room. This is the Incomprehensible Room. Vide supra, and weep.

YANETUT

On the contrary, dear friend, I think I understand

quite well

Actually, I had thought this room is the place where people come to chat about English usage

and help others with their writing style

It seems I have been wrong

Don’t feel bad: these things happen even in the best of families.

I am fine, no offense taken.

BTW. I am putting together my résumé but a grad admission essay

BTW. I am not putting together my résumé but a grad admission essay

Anyway, so... Thanks, Robusto.

And tchrist, you can minced oath yourself.

2:09 AM

@SunnyBoyNY No problem.

@tchrist You couldn't have read my TL;DR answer in less than a minute!

@Cerberus Did so.

Or was the first sentence enough?

Okay.

Upvoting blind: tl;dr, but this has to be the longest question-and-answer combination on the site. ^_^ — Robusto 1 min ago

I upvoted both.

I think he got to “Other Tongues”. My Romance philology always outs me.

2:12 AM

@tchrist Or conducted research...

Find a longer question-and-answer pair and you could win a set of steak knives.

@Robusto Woohoo! Gracias.

SEDEs

ad dexteram patris

Gotta go. Laterz.

Bai!

2:19 AM

@Cerb Did you see how Portuguese can use mesoclitics, and contracted ones, too? te la cantaria > cantá-ta-ia = I would sing you it(f.). They still have the postfix habeo (well, in the imperfect, though) only loosely coupled.

It freaks the Brazilians out a bit, but it is normal in Portugal.

Funny.

So te la = ta?

Yes.

The Brazilians aren’t font of that one, either. :)

Are you sure that split has always existed since Latin?

It could be a coincidence...

You can only do this with the future and the conditional, since only they are formed from an infinitive plus a post-fix habere.

@Cerberus Which split?

You mean the mesoclitic?

Yes.

2:25 AM

Think of la hei a cantar. Now think about cantar la hei. You move the entire "la hei" to postfix position.

Clitic raising is common in all Iberian languages.

Voy a decirtelo > Te lo voy a decir.

quiero saberlo > lo quiero saber

cantar la hei is written cantá-la-ei, I believe. There may be contraction though. Not sure.

I shall sing it(f.().

Where hei is the 1s pres ind of the habere verb, haver.

@tchrist I understand how it works.

k

@tchrist This happens in Italian too.

Yes, it does.

But not in French. Je vais te dire qqch.

Not Je te vais dire qqch.

It is possible in French, but not ordinary word order.

2:29 AM

Like how?

Imperatives have postfix clitics, yes.

Prenez-en.

Imperative.

Yes.

Perhaps it is not possible with infinitives.

It is possible in three kinds of sentences.

But just with finite verbs.

Iberian can use enclitics on not just infinitives and imperatives, but also with gerunds.

Hmm.

2:31 AM

Portuguese still uses enclitics on finite verbs, but Spanish has stopped except for old formulas like dícese and véase.

Latin doesn't care MUWHAHAHA.

It does whatever it wants.

Corriéndose detras de mí, el agua pura se me escapó.

That is from correrse, the reflexive, with the gerund plus enclitic. On the finite verb, Old Spanish, and Modern Portuguese, would be able to have escapóseme

Les ayants-droits.

That's the best I can come up with.

Yes, French doesn’t like it on gerunds.

Nor even infinitives.

Just proclitics, not enclitics.

@tchrist oy vey, They.

2:38 AM

Hi.

French is a lot more uptight about word order than the other Western Romance languages, in my experience. I do not know why. This may be connected to their loss of pro-drop status. Dunno.

Related to Germanic influences, I believe.

Howdy @Cerb

Howdy.

I have eaten delicious foods today.

2:42 AM

Such as?

Did you now?

Such as: a jalapeno cheddar bratwurst

Which is a really weird time-thingie.

a triple chocolate cannoli

um

Greek has enclitics, but it is mainly that a couple of short words are normally enclitic per se, independent of the preceding word.

2:43 AM

and some shrimps

@cornbreadninja Fascinating!

Cannolo?

And Greek has lots and lots of elision.

You ate several different species of shrimp?

@Cerberus it had cheddar bits and jalapeño bits inside of the brat, and the brat had more cheddar on top.

2:44 AM

Yay!

@tchrist I ate several leftover fried shrimp of unknown what-have-you.

offers up an ñ for your delectation

How tasteful.

I’m not sure which dialect of English uses “shrimps”, but it is not my own.

@tchrist thank you. the blueberry wine has made me a bit careless.

2:45 AM

Blueberry wine? ponders

@tchrist I almost said skrimps.

I am incensed. And not in a good way.

It stinks, huh.

More than 40 years after their excision, one of my tonsils has grown back.

And it has trapped some strep. Again.

AGAIN!

I just was on antibiotics.

OMFG.

2:47 AM

I should probably have it removed. Again.

I never knew they could grow back.

Hurts.

Can’t push on that side of my neck.

Perhaps they were simply scraped 40 years ago.

Or move/twist the neck, or cough, without it hurting.

@tchrist Huh is that even possible? Weird.

Ibuprofen?

@tchrist perhaps you also have a swollen lymph node.

Well, maybe attracted, not trapped.

2:49 AM

I am to have apple pancakes soon.

It is like having a neck injury. That is what I had thought it was.

It isn’t.

But tonsils are beacons for strep infections.

They call out in the darkness, inviting it in.

How uncomfortable.

Are you on antibiotics now?

This is why people get rid of them. Or try to.

No, I have to see the doctor in the morning again.

I never got rid of mine, I think.

It is ridiculous.

2:50 AM

Ugh.

I was only on 5 days of antibiotic, but it was strong, a Z-pak. I thought anything would be gone. This is reraising its ugliness. Very unexpected.

Has your resistance been weak for a while?

I wonder if I am somehow becoming immune-compromised simply from old age. My brother keeps catching bronchitis.

Hmm I don't know. I doubt it.

Well, I had that wicked stomach virus, then strep, both of which had me feverish. That knocks you down.

2:52 AM

Perhaps you should sleep more and expose yourself to cold less?

Yes to the first. I am sure you are correct in that.

Sometimes such diseases come in pairs or trios, preying on weak resistance.

As for exposing myself to cold, I do not so weaken myself. It takes quite a bit of exposure to do that.

@Cerberus That just isn’t fair.

Indeed not.

But perhaps they will stay away for a long while after this.

Fuck. That’s all I can say. It always feels worse at night.

2:54 AM

@tchrist I'm not so sure about that. Your sleeping at the airport?

That is exposure to diseases, not to cold.

I thought you said it was cold and drafty.

That isn’t enough to do that.

Who knows?

You have to spend the day outside with inadequate protection before it knocks down your resistance. One does not catch colds from being cold. This is a myth.

But you can get sick if you push it too far, too.

I surely have never done that. At least, this winter.

2:57 AM

You do not catch the cold virus from exposure to cold, this is true.

But in practice, that may not matter, because it can (greatly) increase the symptoms of a cold.

Hm.

And I believe it can lower your resistance and/or be the nudge required for certain diseases.

Cold can certainly stimulate phlegm production.

Like cold sores.

@tchrist More than that even, I believe.

“Cold sores” are called that from the gripe, not the chill.

2:59 AM

What do you mean?

Aren’t they?

Gripe as in the rare old word for a cold.

Catarrh, or some such.

I believe there is a connection between exposure to cold and cold sores.

Really?

I thought it was from having a cold, not from being cold.

Not sure how strong it is, nor how universal.

Probably both.

Fat protects against the exposure to some degree, I think.

As in smearing fat on your lips.

> Cold sore outbreaks may be influenced by stress, menstruation, sunlight, sunburn, fever, dehydration, or local skin trauma.

3:01 AM

I believe cold belongs in that list.

Lack of sleep is clearly also a factor.

Well, you can get sunburn and windburn.

Yes, lack of sleep is. That is true.

Windburn?

Sure.

Chapped lips?

I believe there is also a relation between alcohol and pimples.

And lack of sleep.

Windburn

Windburn is sunburn accelerated by the effects of wind removing the UV-filtering thin layer of lipids from the skin and irritation caused by the wind. Though formerly thought to be solely the result of wind, the condition has been demonstrated to be the result of sun exposure aggravated by exposure to wind. Thus treatment and prevention of windburn and sunburn are basically identical. References External links

3:03 AM

Oh, I see. Never had that.

It happens a lot at my elevation.

We never see the sun anyway, so no problem there!

Due to the very low humidity and high solar load.

Skiers get it all the time.

Chapped lips from the wind and the dry air, I get that.

But actual burns?

I have never had sunburns on my lips.

Well, it hurts. Cracks.

3:04 AM

Nor in winter.

Cracks, yes.

Those can be annoying.

You don’t have enough sun then, I guess.

It happens here.

I hate sunburnt lips.

The sun barely shines over the wall of the polder at noon.

I do use lip fat all the time.

Also against cold sores.

So perhaps I am extra protected.

No SPF on your lip balm?

Unwise here.

Wha?

Sunscreen

Sunscreen (also commonly known as sunblock, sun tan lotion, sun screen, sunburn cream or block out) is a lotion, spray, gel or other topical product that absorbs or reflects some of the sun's ultraviolet (UV) radiation on the skin exposed to sunlight and thus helps protect against sunburn. Skin-lightening products have sunscreen to protect lightened skin because light skin is more susceptible to sun damage than darker skin. A number of sunscreens have tanning powder to help the skin to darken or tan; however, tanning powder does not provide protection from UV rays. Sunscreens contain one...

SPF = Sun Protection Factor

> The sun protection factor of a sunscreen is a laboratory measure of the effectiveness of sunscreen — the higher the SPF, the more protection a sunscreen offers against UV-B (the ultraviolet radiation that causes sunburn). The SPF is the amount of UV radiation required to cause sunburn on skin with the sunscreen on, as a multiple of the amount required without the sunscreen.

3:08 AM

You don't need to post links and quotations.

goes to fix supper

It was just the abbreviation.

OK bai.

A: English, does this sentence make sense?

3:27 AM

Check this out.

0

I think what the child means to on is actually one: he means a friend gives you one pill (or other dose of medicine). I would resist the urge to edit and simply ask him what he means. Go over the sentence with him and get him to "approve" your edits. But keep them light. Ask him if he sees any p...

I think it's important that this person not over-edit the child's words.

I came back to peeve about do as today's all-purpose verb.

@cornbreadninja That does make sense.

@Robusto narrows eyes are you making fun of me? :P

I've had some wine.

@cornbreadninja Are we negotiating?

@Robusto not that I'm aware.

3:31 AM

Wrong answer. Always is the correct answer.

I'm sorry.

What are we negotiating?

What are we not negotiating?

My contract.

@cornbreadninja No, that's an exchange from The Devil's Advocate: First Keanu Reeves asks it of Al Pacino, then vice versa: "Are we negotiating?" "Always."

@Robusto I've seen maybe 100 movies. That might be a generous estimate.

3:36 AM

I guess you need to see 101.

We'll go over that another time. I have to crash. Night.

Night!

4:07 AM

> As a licensed massage therapist for over 10 years, I agree with Prudie's response to the question, but I just wanted to note that many of us find the word "masseuse" to be antiquated if not a bit offensive.

Some people have no life.

Offensive. Come on!

Stop trying to control how strangers speak.

6:18 AM

@Cerberus The religious bigots have started to come out to play.

see the helpful discussion in sec 4.4 of Ch.1 of Huddleston & Pullum's grammar — jlovegren 2 hours ago

And of course, they can but invoke their patron saint.

@jlovegren That is anything but helpful: distilling 42 pages, 239 paragraphs, 559 lines, 21,751 words, 130,396 graphemes, and 131,803 bytes is not my idea of a good time. Please explain in your own words why you believe that unlike any other language, English no longer has periphrastic tenses. You also might try referencing anybody but Pullum while you are at it; it’s a bit too incestuously self-referential otherwise. — tchrist 4 mins ago

@tchrist Haha.

Hey, be nice to Lovegren. I like him.

Oh, that was nice.

I asked him what it meant.

And those are not random numbers, either.

"Anything but helpful"..."incestuously self-referential"...

I did not find it helpful.

Did you?

But it's not a nice thing to say, and some people might find it helpful.

6:22 AM

If the problem is with Pullum’s point of view, just citing him is like using the Bible to “prove” that what it says is true.

It is self-referential.

But if Pullum brings forward some persuasive arguments...

I didn’t see that.

He is talking about individual words’ inflectional properties.

That does not address the wider issue of time-related tense.

It's still not polite.

When to have is in the past, and it is followed by a past participle, we usefully and meaningfully say that the verb is in the pluperfect, because its tense represents a time prior to something that is in the past.

Therefore, it is not in the past, since it has been shown to different from the past.

It's not that simple.

There is something to say for the other models.

As long as they don't preach it like some kind of universal truth.

6:26 AM

“I had intended something like that.”, what is the verb in that sentence? Is it not “had intended”?

Two verbs.

One verb phrase.

Oops.

Just what I was going to say.

There has to be a meaningful distinction of tense — of time — between had intended and had visitors.

There is.

6:34 AM

It is one thing to assign the labels below the sentence; it is another to assign the ones above it.

Evening.

Hi.

Hi Mah!

Hi David, Hi Cerb!

How're you two doing these days?

Hiya!

6:37 AM

Mostly well, thanks Mah.

I'm good, but you have arrived at my bed time.

I bet you say that to all the girls!

So I must bid the three of you farewell.

@DavidWallace Mebbeh.

Good night, then!

Only some.

I'll tuck myself in, thankyouverymuch.

Bai!

6:38 AM

@DavidWallace I'm happy to hear that.

awaits poof

POOOOOF

satisfied

Umm, good night, Cerberus.

G'night!

Oh shi...I was already Away.

really poof

Today was my second day back at work. I shouldn't have to do this!

6:40 AM

Do what, exactly? Work?

Yes. I should have someone supporting me indefinitely.

Right then.

I would be nice to them.

I'll start calling some nursing homes to see if they'll take an early applicant.

If you could find one that would pay ME, rather than the other way around, that would be helpful.

6:43 AM

Hrrm. Perhaps I should look into services for removing craniums from cumulonimbuses.

Hehe.

I'm sure I shall get back into the swing of things. But right now, work is kind of boring.

What do you do at your current job?

Work was boring for me today. Very slow.