English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

user19161

11:01

Also, they say the end of the world is in a few hours time...

user19161

@reg How will you be celebrating Christmas?

RegDwighт

One of the two main news channels here runs an insert Today is "the end of the world". The idiocy of this being presented as news aside, I wonder how many hoi polloi will take those quotation marks to stand for emphasis.

user19161

@RegDwighт Have you watched Knowing starring Nicolas Cage?

RegDwighт

I can't stand Nicolas Cage. He has like two movies that are any good, and he's not the one to take credit.

user19161

Knowing is much better than Matrix.

RegDwighт

11:11

6.2 vs 8.7 on IMDb.

KitFox

11:59

Pirate hat: better than accepted. What do you suppose that means?

And ohai @Jasper. I was just wondering this morning where you had been.

RegDwighт

@KitFox populist?

Rright! @Jasper! Where are your hats?

Matt Эллен

Good day!

all the thirteens

KitFox

@RegDwighт I was thinking that too, maybe.

Matt Эллен

12:15

maybe just "more votes than the accepted answer"

One more hat for our team

RegDwighт

12:36

700 now.

IT Security are on fire. Surpassed Arqade already. Out of nowhere. Looks like they are taking it very seriously.

RegDwighт

12:48

@KitFox I have an even better one.

> Epic Punyon Beard: it was hairy

Looks like only mods get that one.

Anna Lear, Shog, balpha, Emmett, Geoff Dallas, Jason Punyon, Jin...

KitFox

@RegDwighт Mod message maybe?

User suspension!? Oh, oh!

RegDwighт

I'm rummaging through the transcripts in the mod room. That's the best guess so far.

That can't be it. Jin has suspended someone? On MSO? Come on.

KitFox

status-complete?

Robusto

status-awake <= me

KitFox

Hiya.

I want Moshi Moshi. It's cute.

Robusto

12:54

Last day before Christmas break. I'm crawling to the finish line.

KitFox

Me too.

high fives @Rob

RegDwighт

Noobs. I am sprinting.

Robusto

Backatcha. down low

KitFox

I want...

I want Raquel Welch dropped on top of me.

Also, more hats.

RegDwighт

►

David Wallace

12:56

drops Raquel Welch on Kit

KitFox

Thank you.

David Wallace

Will you let me have her back when you've finished with her?

Robusto

Something to tell your coworkers:

►

In the Christmas spirit.

KitFox

@DavidWallace Finished? sighs I suppose.

David Wallace

Did you see the episode of The Muppet Show in which she was the guest?

JSBձոգչ

13:00

not a fan of Raquel Welch

RegDwighт

30

Q: The mysterious Epic Punyon Beard

I have just seen the hat known as Epic Punyon Beard for the first time. Does anyone have any information (or hints if you don't want to spoil it) on this mysterious hat!?!? Here are the given (but not so useful) clues: The hat in action: UPDATE: Shog9 states that the beard is possible but...

Robusto

On the plus side, I finally replaced the missing art on my Amazon books, so they all have covers now. The bad news is, the reviews went away on the ones that had their art replaced. Amazon gives, and Amazon takes.

RegDwighт

13:15

LOL@JSBձոգչ

KitFox

Looks like you were right about the pirate hat @Reg.

Beat current accepted by +3 or 2x.

RegDwighт

+3 or 2×? Why is that by English math?

KitFox

And Katey works with Jason.

Ah HA!

RegDwighт

What, ahha? You mean she's the mother?

KitFox

I mean she tweets with him.

Matt Эллен

13:19

maybe you need to tweet that you have children or something

@stackexchange

does shog have children?

KitFox

I suppose that she might be the mother. But she was a member of the Chaos team.

Robusto

Chaos team?

RegDwighт

First time I hear of her.

Robusto

Ha, I'm #53 in hats on MetaSO. How did that happen?

Matt Эллен

having children isn't a tough as being an SO mod?

KitFox

13:23

Oh. It is her. That does seem to be the mommy.

Oh wait. Maybe not.

People are so ambiguous in their tweets!

RegDwighт

Why would mommy tweet to daddy? They don't meet IRL?

Matt Эллен

first baby conceived over IRC

Robusto

Shit, just found out my best bud from work is leaving in Jan. No one left to get my Big Lebowski and Breaking Bad references. Wah!

Matt Эллен

you'll just have to hire someone to watch the programmes with you

RegDwighт

@Robusto Is he going somewhere where more people will get his?

KitFox

13:25

@Robusto Oh that bites. My sympathies.

Robusto

He's going to work for a friend, so probably they will get his jokes.

RegDwighт

Well that's not very fair. Or balanced.

Robusto

Earlier this year there were three of us. Now I'm the only one left in a sea of pineapples.

Matt Эллен

that's one painful sea to swim in

RegDwighт

Haha. ELU started it, life will finish you off.

Robusto

13:26

> I'm feeling so sorry for myself that it's hard to breathe.

Plus now they'll probably want me to clean up his code.

Matt Эллен

bai!

Robusto

CU

RegDwighт

Heh, Maths is not participating in the hat bash.

So much for them being nicer to newcomers.

Robusto

They've mostly been nice and answered my dumb questions.

5

Q: Is there a simple proof for 2(n/3) is not an integer when n/3 is not an integer?

Obviously if n/3 is an integer then 2(n/3) is an integer. But what if n/3 is not an integer? Can it be proven that 2(n/3) is not an integer (or, more specifically, an even multiple of 3) if n/3 is not an integer? I feel that intuitively this must be true, but I am not a mathematician and my idle...

arithmetic

RegDwighт

You mean the traffic question?

Oh. That.

Robusto

13:31

7

Q: Probability in single-lane traffic flow: What are the odds of "choke points" being encountered?

Let's say you have a single-lane road (single in this case meaning single lane in each direction, or what you could also call two-lane). Let's say you have a random number of vehicles on a given 10-mile stretch of road. The speed limit is 45 mph, but some people go faster and some go slower. Is ...

probability mathematical-modeling

There's the traffic question

RegDwighт

You actually complained about how they handled it, no?

Robusto

Did I? I don't recall.

RegDwighт

Feb 25 '11 at 16:12, by Robusto

The only time I asked a question on Math.SE they told me it was too hard.

Feb 25 '11 at 16:14, by Robusto

I revised it downwards but still got nothing for my trouble.

Robusto

Well, that's what complainers do. They complain.

RegDwighт

Speaking of complaining, are the Septics participating?

KitFox

13:33

Oh, Neil was kind enough to publish another article I wrote, How I Wrote a Novel in 30 Days, if anyone cares to read it.

Robusto

They're too septical.

RegDwighт

They are! "148 users from this site have earned a total of 278 hats".

KitFox

Good for them!

RegDwighт

I am skeptical.

You can't just say it's good for them. You need to provide at least one NASA picture.

Robusto

You live in a rainbow world.

They're down in the trenches, dealing with doubt all the time.

It's a bitter life, being a Skeptics.SE contributor. You have to prove every proposition, have a citation for every utterance, and still people doubt you. I do not envy them.

RegDwighт

13:38

@KitFox you're insane. Thirty answers? Thirty new answers? In two weeks? Who are you, Rob England? Barrie Usto?

@Robusto I'll just stick to the fact. Paul McCartney does not exist. QED.

KitFox

@RegDwighт I know. It's crazy.

Robusto

@RegDwighт My rate of answering questions is nowhere near that of Barrie.

@RegDwighт No. People just wish he didn't.

RegDwighт

Not anymore anyway.

@KitFox Anyhoo, tell me a question you'd like to answer, and I'll post it.

I need all those hats you can only get for posting questions. And I have no questions.

Robusto

@RegDwighт I only had a high rate for about eight months. Who could keep that up? Only someone who was retired, with nothing else to do.

Dec 13 at 14:57, by Robusto

Question for EL&U: What's the difference between an addon, a plugin, and an extension?

You can borrow this one.

RegDwighт

Ugh.

You know what, a week from now I might be so desperate I will.

Verbatim, of course.

No research.

Robusto

13:43

@RegDwighт It's a pitiful sight, you in such utter desperation. And over the holidays, too.

RegDwighт

Not my holidays. I'm *ortho*dox, not *heathen*dox.

Hanu

What is the right word for a person who is too much obedient or excessively sincere or too much devoted to his bosses or their leaders

?

Below or my choice of words

Robusto

@RegDwighт I would have thought *para*dox.

RegDwighт

@Robusto *por*dox. Ask @tchrist if you don't believe me. Trabajo su espanol!

Robusto

Anyway, the country around you is celebrating *heathen*doxy even as we speak.

@RegDwighт No trabajo hoy.

Hanu

13:45

bootlicking person vs fawning person vs obsequious person vs sycophantic person vs toady person

RegDwighт

Crap, su is too correct. I'm blowing my cover.

Robusto

@Hanu They're all synonymous. And they'll be the first to agree.

RegDwighт

Don't forget ass kisser and brown nose.

Robusto

Nov 1 at 15:08, by Robusto

Question for ELL: Can use "spice" and "spike" in meaning the same?

RegDwighт

Oh, and apple polisher.

Hanu

13:47

Is there any difference between those words or they all are interchangeable in all the scenarios

Robusto

They'll all get you into trouble, if that's what you mean.

RegDwighт

@Hanu there is no such thing as two words "interchangeable in all scenarios".

Hanu

I am curious to know the line differentiate between those

RegDwighт

And yeah, what Rob says. Though I guess more people will understand bootlicker vs. sycophant.

Robusto

Bootlicker, ass-kisser, and brown-nose are pretty much equivalent.

A toady performs the same function with perhaps a little more art.

Someone who is obsequious merely performs in a subservient posture in relation to someone else.

KitFox

13:49

@Hanu Sycophant.

Robusto

A sycophantic person goes along with whatever an important person says or does; he is a flatterer.

KitFox

Sycophantic lackey.

Oh. You said that one already.

Robusto

Fawning can be sycophantic or it can be what a group of women do around a newborn baby.

RegDwighт

Eureka! That's what the beard is for!

Hanu

Does my question make sense to post in ELL?

Robusto

13:50

In the Marvel Comics world, they comprise the Yes-Men.

@Hanu No. It's a thesaurus question. Use a good dictionary first.

KitFox

Oh, FFS.

That's what I get for answering questions. Especially ones that Barrie has answered already.

RegDwighт

What, there goes another databasE?

Oh, that.

KitFox

Oh my god. THe database. I forgot I was supposed to be fixing that.

I mean, really I did.

RegDwighт

Sorry. Rewind. Rewind!

KitFox

So. I guess I'll be back later.

RegDwighт

13:53

NOOOOOOOOO

KitFox

Ping me if you need me. Or figure out that damn beard.

RegDwighт

Who will be getting all the hats?

I am incapable.

KitFox

Um. OK. I'll give you the start of the one I was thinking about.

Worse. Is this the only comparative without an -er? Does it represent some remnant of language?

Hanu

Obseques is positive or negative?

RegDwighт

Oh, suppletion.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

13:54

RegDwighт

Hm.

KitFox

I was thinking of it because of the recent comparative question.

RegDwighт

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 that's the fivehundredseventythird batmobile completely different from every other batmobile. Why are people so obsessed with those?

In fact there's an official set coming out. (Which people find crappy.)

Hanu

collegues doesn't like him, as he is obsequious to Project Manager

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwighт Because it's Batman!

RegDwighт

13:56

So what? I am Batman, too.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

But that particular mini batmobile is really well-made, I think. Also well-photographed.

RegDwighт

Hm.

KitFox

@Hanu No, obsequious is not negative like that.

Hanu

So obsequous is positive or neutral

KitFox

I'd say neutral but tending toward positive.

You would want that in a staff member.

Well, a servant.

RegDwighт

13:59

Friday meeting.

Hanu

the quality "too much obsequious" is valid?

KitFox

@Hanu I can't imagine using that phrase.

Robusto

Commute. Latyeres.

RegDwighт

That was a short one.

KitFox

Indeed. Now you can ask my question while I am fixing stuffs.

Hanu

14:08

can I say obsequious person = minion to some one

KitFox

@Hanu A good minion would be obsequious, yes.

RegDwighт

After checking etymonline, I'm not sure I have much of a question left.

Not about English, anyway. It's all about P.Gmc. now.

Which is still an interesting question, but at that point anybody's guess is as good as mine.

And now they are cutting the internet cord. "Will be back up as soon as we are done." Gee, thanks.

CU some other time.

Hanu

Sycophant = a person who acts obsequiously toward someone important in order to gain advantage

The above is dictionary meaning

KitFox

Yeah, I'd agree.

Hanu

Sycophant acts to gain advantage

Obsequious person no matter what he will be obedient to his boss or master

Am I correct?

KitFox

14:18

Yes. In fact, I'd say obsequious is specifically not trying to gain advantage. They are obedient because it is their duty to be.

tchrist

@RegDwighт I’ll only listen if you notice how much work I’ve done for this arguably GR question.

Hanu

Fawning = displaying exaggerated flattery or affection; obsequious

So fawning is a kind of obsequious with affection, which is also non negative quality

like son is obsequious to his father. Younger sister is obsequious to their elder brother in family

Does my perception is correct?

Alenanno

Hello

KitFox

@Hanu Yes, that seems about right. Women fawn over babies, for instance.

"Make a fuss over" would be close in meaning.

Hanu

If a person behaves obsequiously to an important person irrespective of advantage or not he is toady

Does my perception correct?

KitFox

14:32

A toady is a lackey or a minion. Someone who does what he is told to do, even if it is bad, and maybe especially because it is bad and he enjoys it.

> Clicking on an ad will open a new window and will not interfere with your web browsing experience.

Hahaha.

Cerberus

<click>

Hanu

What is the difference between toady and minion?

KitFox

A minion is more neutral.

Cerberus

Ohh this nice, non-interfering ad is installing a toolbar! Yay!

KitFox

Except that minions are usual what evil overlords have, I suppose.

I'd like to have minions someday.

Cerberus

14:34

A very obedient, lowly servant.

KitFox

"Toady" is an insult.

Alenanno

@KitFox That term reminds me of the Zerg.

tchrist

It’s time for breakfast, and I still haven’t rep-capped, damn it.

Hanu

OK

KitFox

You wouldn't call your servants toadies.

tchrist

14:35

@KitFox Whereas Froggy is a compliment.

KitFox

Not where I come from.

Mitch

@Hanu also, minions are faceless, hey often come in expendable groups. A toady you know and disparage individually.

@KitFox but that -other- guy's servant...he's such a toady.

KitFox

And minions tend to be multitudinous. You don't generally have just one minion.

Unless maybe you are just starting out on your evil scheme.

Toadies are fewer in number.

Mitch

hm... lackey is sort of half way between toady and minion, right?

KitFox

It's hard to find a good toady, but minions well. A dime a dozen.

Alenanno

14:38

Guys, I made a Linguistics ad for this site, mind to give me some opinions/cruel criticism/ideas/observation/insights/compliments/handshakes?

KitFox

Sure, let's see it.

@Mitch Yeah. Sounds about right.

Alenanno

KitFox

Pretty colors.

Cerberus

@Mitch Yeah, like pawns.

Alenanno

They are the same from Beta sites. I ~~stole~~ inspired myself to them.

Mitch

14:39

you'll through a bunch of minions at James Bond to be offed one right after the other. But your toady you'll dispatch Bond in a terribly duisgusting manner, but Bond will off him in an excruciating act of reversal.

Hanu

Thanks :)

tchrist

@Alenanno You forgot to use a ligature for the fi, so it collides. Pretty please ﬁx that.

Mitch

@Cerberus exactly.

KitFox

Lackeys aren't really like pawns though. Pawns are for achieving an end, but lackeys are like maintenance people.

Cerberus

@Mitch A lackey is really a sophisticated servant with certain special functions at court, I would say?

Alenanno

14:40

@tchrist You mean you want the ligature?

Cerberus

@Alenanno Yay!!

Mitch

@KitFox maybe a lilttle more toady like?

@Cerberus and might be a toady depending on his looks and age?

tchrist

@Alenanno Yes, I mean I want the ligature. Your typesetting software should have applied it automatically, because that font needs it.

Cerberus

The secondary meaning of lackey is "grovelling servant".

Mitch

@Cerberus do toadies grovel?

Cerberus

14:41

Sure!

KitFox

No way.

Mitch

maybe a little but not as much as a lackey.

Cerberus

Mine do.

Mitch

I ran out of minions. Can I borrow a cup?

KitFox

A good toady wouldn't grovel. He'd sell you out if you tried to make him.

tchrist

14:41

@Mitch Does a pollywog swim in a pond?

Mitch

minced please.

ok I can mince them.

Cerberus

I think toady and lackey have very different histories, that's all I know.

Mitch

@KitFox yes...very toady-like.

but a toady could never become the evil master mind. sort of like an evil butler.

evil -ugly- butler.

KitFox

A lackey, on the other hand, would just clean up the mess and start looking for another job when the plan failed.

Alenanno

@tchrist It depends on the font, not all support it.

Cerberus

14:43

@KitFox Perhaps a toady is less like a formal servant, more like a follower?

KitFox

A lackey doesn't give a damn about you.

@Cerberus Yes, yes.

Excellent.

Mitch

@KitFox right...he's very good at cleaning up blood ('use bleach, gets rid of the DNA evidence')

Cerberus

Right.

tchrist

@Alenanno It is not a matter of using the Unicode code point; it is a matter of how the font is constructed. Whichever one you used there obviously must have the ligature for correct setting.

Mitch

@KitFox a toady is a schemer. a lackey...yes, it's just a job for now.

Cerberus

14:44

In Dutch, a lakei is still exclusively a formal servant: the sucking-up part never became a full-blown secondary meaning.

KitFox

I don't think lackeys necessarily suck-up.

Cerberus

"Rupert Murdoch and his lackeys" is not what you would say in Dutch.

tchrist

@Alenanno Which piece of typesetting software are you using?

KitFox

laughs

tchrist

Definition: 	sycophant
Synonyms: 	adulator, apple polisher, ass-kisser, backscratcher, backslapper, bootlicker, brownnoser, doormat, doter, fan, fawner, flatterer, flunky, groupie, hanger-on, kiss-up, lackey, minion, teacher's pet, yes-person

That is toady.

KitFox

14:45

I think tchrist thinks people actually use typesetting software.

tchrist

Definition: 	servant
Synonyms: 	attendant, butler, domestic, doormat, drudge, factotum, flunkey, retainer, steward, subordinate, toady, underling, valet, yes-person

Cerberus

@KitFox Okay, not necessarily. But they do serve you unquestioningly, I'd say. Because they hope to gain from it, probably—not for idealist reasons.

tchrist

That is lackey.

Cerberus

Oh yes, flunky.

tchrist

@KitFox Anything that assembles type is by definition typesetting software.

@Alenanno What font are you trying to use?

Cerberus

14:47

Yes-person? Never heard of that.

Funny.

Drudge sounds a bit unsuitable.

Surely a lackey in the primary sense would not actually drudge for his lord!

Alenanno

@tchrist Sorry I'm here lol It's Helvetica. But it was just a choice because I knew it.

Cerberus

Speaking of which, I need more footmen.

tchrist

@Alenanno That cannot be Helvetica. Helvetica is a sans.

It is a serifed font like Times, Georgia, Garamond, etc.

Alenanno

@tchrist No, the question was not Helvetica, the "Linguistics SE" was Helvetica.

tchrist

The first of each pair has default ligatures enabled; the second of each pair has it disabled.

The second font was not designed to be used without ligatures, as the type collides.

The first one can be, but looks better with it enabled.

The second of each pair also has kerning disabled.

Mitch

14:54

I couldn't find that phrase in the book '1001 Persian-English Proverbs' http://www.baylanguagebooks.co.uk/product_details.php?id=23212&language=&search=E%20P%20B%20Publishers&type=idioms&author=&publisher=

It has a Persian proverb (in Farsi), the the literal translation in English, then the closest corresponding English proverb. Fun, if you're into that sort of thing.

There were no proverbs starting with 'toop'.

Alenanno

@tchrist What font did you use there?

tchrist

I have used nothing but straight ASCII there; it does not use Unicode’s compatibility codepoints for ligatures. You should not need those.

@Alenanno The first is Arno Pro, and the second Times.

Mitch

@Gigili but of course, there are many more 'turns of phrase' than proverbs.

tchrist

If you cannot figure out how to enable ligatures, then you must use a font that is designed to be used without them. For example:

Alenanno

And those are what fonts?

tchrist

14:57

@Alenanno The first font is Alfios, and the second is Georgia. Both work find without ligatures enabled, as you see. But Alfios will do something a bit different if you do enable them, whereas Georgia will not.

Mitch

@Cerberus flunky is a yucky word. for that matter so is lackey and toady. I guess I'd rather have lots of minions than a few good toadies/lackies/flunkies. I could never trust them.

tchrist

Hm, I just replied to a future posting. How cool!

Mitch

a sidekick is like the good version of a ... toady/lackey/flunky, right?

@tchrist it's a talent.

Alenanno

@tchrist I don't have neither Arno Pro, nor Alfios. :P

KitFox

@Mitch Yeah.

tchrist

14:59

Certainly Alfios is available for free from George Douros’s website.

It is “older school” that Georgia, and supports a modern European alphabet.

Mitch

@Cerberus footmen are minions-to-be. actualy, what -do- footmen do? polish your shoes? THey're not valets are they?

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…