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17:10
Ergh. I hate this phrase. I can never remember the proper conjugation.
"She laid down" "She lay down"
She lied down.
Sure you can.
She lay down = she elected to position herself horizontally.
She laid down = she elected to position her lover horizontally.
What?
She laid down and closed her eyes.
She lay down and closed her eyes.
horizontal face palm
Argh. Neither sounds right.
She got laid.
Which means someone else laid her down.
17:15
Oh. That's a bit of a jump.
Laid is transitive.
"She laid down and closed her eyes" sounds like they're glass eyes or something. She laid them down and she closed them.
Jinx!
Haha yes.
You want "She lay down and closed her eyes".
But "lay down" doesn't sound like it is in the right tense.
17:16
But it is!
But it is.
Stop doing that!
Are you my middle head?
No wonder I can never remember it.
"Lay" is the past tense of "lie", as well as being the present tense of, umm, "lay".
Lie - lay - lain; lay - laid - laid.
Lie - lied - lied.
La - dee - da.
17:18
It's that I can never remember lie - lay/laid - lain.
Especially with "down" because of the elision.
Elision?
lay down sounds like laid down.
Yes, the elision makes it harder.
Ah OK.
Liaison?
Elide.
17:19
You guys!
just lie down.
It's not elision. Nothing is elided.
And weep?
I don't think my husband would consent to a liaison.
Elision it be.
Nay, it be not!
17:20
Beet head!
you all really need to focus on more important things like:
0
Q: How many uncountable nouns are there in English?

YutaGoogle didn't give me the answer. Maybe too many to count?

Hahaha.
@Cerberus How is it not? I drop the d.
which I want you all to reopen... so that I can vote to close it
@Mitch OK.
17:21
You don't really drop it: it's just that you can't hear two d's in a row.
I hear it.
Elision is when you leave out a sound that you could theoretically hear.
She drops it. It's possible to say "laid down", and pronounce both Ds; but nobody does it.
@Cerberus I'm the one producing the sound!
I'm sorry.
The jury has to be strict here.
17:22
oh..in that? no I don't hear it.
I don't know why you guys are not dropping the conversation now that I've made the facts known.
(facts being how I do it)
And it's certainly not liaison.
Not every muffled or reduced sound counts as elision.
Liaised?
@KitFox liaising is when someone does their job as a liaison.
I don't think I produce two different sounds for "laid down" vs "lay down". I can only hear it in my inner monologue.
17:23
Liaison is when you pronounce the end or beginning of a word differently under the influence of the following or preceding word.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 My d might be slightly harder for "laid down."
@Cerberus One D sound is dropped. That's elision. Whether you like it or not.
As in Australiar and NZ.
@Cerberus yeah. the "d" in "laid" gets cut off under the influence of the "d" in "down".
@Cerberus When you pronounce otherwise silent letters.
17:24
@DavidWallace Sorry, that doesn't count/
You don't count.
@Cerberus that's intrusion or epenthesis
@KitFox Yeah, or otherwise absent sounds.
@Mitch But it could be considered liaison. Except that the word is normally not used for English.
@Cerberus And which sounds are silent or absent in this example?
I have a flatter tongue for "laid down" than for "lay down". Unclear whether it makes any difference to the sound.
17:26
@KitFox Well, you could say it sounds like laydown in "lay down", and count the ehm affigation as liaison. But I wouldn't say it was.
@Cerberus Well, you did say it was.
I asked whether that was what you meant, because I didn't understand the elision thing.
I have maybe the first half of a D sound in "laid down" which gets repeated again for "down". But it isn't a full D and I'm not sure if it's always there.
@Cerberus affigation?
Attachment?
17:27
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I was just wondering if I put a stop in there.
@Cerberus I don't want to contradict Kit but, yeah I think it'd be called elision...unless maybe that's only for vowels?
Do you mean affixation?
@Mitch That's agreeing with me and contradicting Cerb.
@Mitch You're not contradicting Kit, but me.
@DavidWallace I'm not a fan of that form. But it would mean the same, yes.
@KitFox excellent!
17:28
So you're inventing your own words now?
So to sum up, I have a hard time remembering the difference because I pronounce "lay down" and "laid down" almost indistinguishably.
@KitFox Contradicting Cerb always seems more palatable than contradicting Kit, somehow.
Would you ever write "I lai'down"? Say, in some obscure poem?
@DavidWallace I'm not sure how I feel about that statement.
@KitFox I think everybody does.
17:29
@DavidWallace she's got an operational potato gun. you don't want to be on -any- end of that.
@Mitch Three, actually.
@Cerberus But I wasn't talking about everybody. I was talking about me.
@KitFox Exactly. Whatever you say is right.
except when you're not. which you aren't.
And I think it says something interesting about the way I remember things.
@KitFox I was trying to tell you you're normal. Did it hurt?
@Cerberus Yes. Terribly.
17:30
Sorry.
@Cerberus I'm going to contradict you again. I don't have any problem with lie, lay and laid.
This was about pronunciation.
And now you've completely derailed me from writing on my lunch break.
Not about problems.
133 pitiful words.
17:32
@Cerberus I would, if that weren't, essentially, the standard pronunciation of normal speech.
growls
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 So no.
@Cerberus You said everyone has a hard time remembering the difference. I differ.
I did not.
Oh, I see what you mean.
No, I meant everyone pronounces lay down and laid down the same.
That's all.
@Cerberus I bet actors and newscasters and orators don't.
17:34
@Mitch I bet they do, when they're just speaking freely and not, eg, reading poetry
So if two subsequent, identical sounds are pronounced as one, that doesn't count as elision—especially not because that is the only and normal way to do it.
You can't pronounce two d's in English, normally.
@Mitch I think they do.
At least with respect to the /d/.
@Cerberus Middens?
Midday?
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 sure, but there is a set of speech acts which call for deliberate articulation, one where you can't deny that 'lay down' and 'laid down' are different.
/'mɪ.dəns/
Have to go. See you all.
17:36
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 which is my way of saying yes you're right, without giving you the satisfaction. In fact, I didn't just say that.
I suppose you could vary the pause after the vowel a bit as in compensatory lengthening.
@Cerberus how about 'mittens'?
/'mɪ.təns/?
@Mitch How do you say it? You're New Englander, right?
how about writer vs writer?
17:37
Or actually, those s's will usually be z's?
Oh, wait, I've confused you with Robusto.
That's awkward.
...
Please don't hit her.
@KitFox It's awkward only if ...
...it's awkward.
Sorry.
Any way I speak GenAmE with some tiny bits of Southern thrown in that nobody would normally notice. kind like salt pork into collard greens. mmm...when is lunch again?
17:40
I'm New Englander and in my area we have a class division between "mit'ens" and "mid'ens."
Oh, funny.
@KitFox oh shit, really? is the second way almost a cockney glottal stop?
@Mitch Maybe. Want to hear it?
The d is probably most common in America and Canada?
There's a tape? you know one of those newfangled recording devices?
17:42
Phonograph, d'oh.
calliope?
Get your wax rolls moving!
player piano?
Calliope? What does she have to do with that?
@KitFox sure. Does Belichek do it?
17:42
Isn't the the muse of epic poetry?
@Mitch Haha. Funny.
I mean. I don't get it.
@Cerberus isnt it a street organ? a hurdy gurdy?
Oh, I don't know.
Aww so cute!
Most Americans will say the latter, right?
17:45
When my accent is particularly thick, I tend to completely swallow the t.
@Cerberus No, the former, I think.
@KitFox the second sounds like middens to me.
Oh...
@Mitch No stop?
I'll take your word for it. I can't hear my own vocal characteristics very well.
Introspection is hard.
Let's go shopping.
17:46
Shobbing?
@KitFox speling doesn't do justice...the second one sounded distinctly a voiced stop, not swallowed, the fist distinclty unvoiced and aspirated.
@Mitch Sure, deliberate articulation. But I deliberately articulate lots of words very differently from how I pronounce them in speech.
@Mitch Yeah.
@KitFox That's how we'd say "mittens" and "middens" around here
So is the cause of the t in American mittens that it might otherwise be confused with middens?
17:48
@Cerberus "confused" with? nobody ever says "middens"
There aren't many words with intervocalic /t/, are there?
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It's the same word here, but the former = educated and the latter = ignorant.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I must admit I never hear that word...but how to explain the /t/?
Well, educated is overstating it.
@Cerberus the usual GenAmE intermedial 't' is a dental flap.
17:49
@KitFox really? What about words like batter, better, bitter, litter, etc?
@Mitch Yeah, which is like intervocalic d.
@Cerberus I dunno? there are other words that have the t
like kittens
@KitFox ignorant or poor or just grew up in... medford?
In fact there's a song about kittens with mittens
@Cerberus sorry, yes, forgot to finish the thought/.
17:50
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yeah, not not many, right? Why do some have the t?
@Mitch raises eyebrow Is there a difference?
I was bidden by a snake.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Hmm. I've never noticed those. I pronounce batter and badder the same.
I think.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I used to have a kitten with mittens. We called her 'Mittens'. She grew up to be a cat but we still called here Mittens because she still had them. Not real mittens, just white hair on her paws but black all over the rest. Except maybe her nose.
I miss my cat.
17:52
@KitFox zing!
Aww our cat was just like that.
Except that we called his mittens socks.
I miss my cat too.
I still dream of him.
@KitFox I pronounce it 'worse'. What, did you grow up in Medford?
@Mitch How do you know about Medford? Didn't you say you were a Southerner?
@KitFox I read things.
@Cerberus no, bitten, not bidden
17:53
I did -not- say I was a south'ner. I only intimated it.
You can read? Didn't you say you were a Southerner?
I used to speak Carolinian passably well.
Not that far South.
Passingly well?
good enough?
see I can still speak it.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yeah. I was trying to prove that it was the n that caused the /t/.
17:54
@Mitch There isn't much more north of that, so that narrows it down.
I have family members who say 'durn' for serious.
@KitFox Maryland is actually a tobacco growing state and is below the Mason-Dixon line.
@Mitch Well, that was one of my next two guesses.
But then they grow tobacco in Canada. Also in Mali. look it up.
But only because I always forget about Delaware.
Manhadden.
17:56
@KitFox pfft Delaware.
@Cerberus No, no d in Manhattan.
See?
@KitFox but it's not a glottal stop.
@KitFox The d doesn't work before n.
@Mitch OK.
17:56
hard to tell the difference, but I know it when I hear it. very distinctive.
So that confirms my hypothesis.
@Cerberus which was?
2 mins ago, by Cerberus
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yeah. I was trying to prove that it was the n that caused the /t/.
@Cerberus What would disprove it? That's the important question.
Scranton.
17:57
You're just pleasuring yourself if you keep looking for positive examples.
oops. which 'n'?
@KitFox words with t that sounds like d and ends in -en
Don't make me start in on confirmation bias.
like your supposed "middens"
so you need to look at those -without -n-.
17:58
@KitFox A word with /-'...d.(ə)n/ spelled as -tt...n.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Supposed? People say that around here. And "bidden" and probably "Manhaddan" too.
@Cerberus Or...
@KitFox supposedly say that.
neater/kneader? (need a change in vowel too)
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Or unaccented -an or -on, I would say.
Where the last syllable is swallowed.
17:59
@KitFox Or...what?
@Cerberus What else would disprove it?
Oh.
Or intervocalic stressed /t/ without /-(ə)n/ following.
well, without cataloguing every possible way of saying all words like this, we can't really PROVE anything.
@Cerberus Better. Thank you.
Powhatan? accent on the last syllable, t is a aspirated unvoiced dental stop.
18:00
smiles
@KitFox wait: how did you say that? t or d?
I think I have it half-way between t and d
Like "Dank you."
or else my t is really more like a '
18:01
@Mitch Right, let my hypothesis be "t(t)".
no wait.. after saying it lots of times I've lost all sense of what I say
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 We talked about the apostrophe.
@Cerberus and you failed to convince me that it isn't used to represent a glottal stop.
among its many other uses
It marks -cope or elision.
Someones a glottal stop is inserted there, but not always.
I'm not going to get into this again.
You're: no glottal stop.
Maybe I should do it in German too.
Wa'er: glottal stop is inserted.
Look: I'm not saying it ALWAYS represents a glottal stop.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 And you thought you could ever resist me!!
BRB garbage day.
18:05
@Cerberus I'm not going to try to demonstrate it. Just clarifying what you think my claims are.
The apostrophe ( ’  although often rendered as  ' ) is a punctuation mark, and sometimes a diacritic mark, in languages that use the Latin alphabet or certain other alphabets. In English, it serves three purposes: * The marking of the omission of one or more letters (as in the contraction of do not to don't). * The marking of possessive case (as in the cat's whiskers). * The marking as plural of written items that are not words established in English orthography (as in P's and Q's, the late 1950's). (This is considered incorrect by some; see Use in forming certain pl...
> Other languages and transliteration systems use the apostrophe or some similar mark to indicate a glottal stop, sometimes considering it a letter of the alphabet
true. @Cerb your statement that the glottal stop represents "-cope or elision" is false for some alphabets of the world. it is generally true for the alphabets of Europe, though. afaict this is what @Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 is trying to say
@JSBձոգչ Well, I'm trying to say that, eg, fiction writers in English commonly use it for glottal stop. And it just so happens that in English, most non-linguist writers rarely have a case where they need a glottal stop that isn't also elided-letters, but if they DID need that, they'd probably reach for the '.
But I said I wasn't goin' t' ge' involv'd!
@JSBձոգչ I already excluded derived senses in different contexts, in our earlier discussion.
ok, well, whatever
11 mins ago, by Cerberus
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 And you thought you could ever resist me!!
QED.
See @WillHunting? This is the correct use of QED.
Well, not really.
18:18
I am resisting further discussion of the apostrophe topic. Just read the wiki article I linked and then please accept that it is used to represent glottal stops.
You can comment on my slogan recitation.
You can say how folksy I sound or something.
I am being very attention whorish today.
You may have noticed.
Please tell me you noticed.
5
@KitFox they're all the same. and the way I say it. dental flaps. not glottal stops, not aspirated stops.
@KitFox did you say something? Sorry, I popped out for a bit
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Stop discussing this already!
I'm feeling terribly inadequate today. I dreamt I was angry all last night.
18:23
@KitFox !! I didn't notice that you said that until just now.
@KitFox were you a roman commander killing a deserter?
@KitFox I read that as 'I dreamt I was hungry'... and I am!
@MattЭллен No. In the first one, I was mad at my ex- for not talking to me anymore. The other one is too personal to discuss.
Except that I feel short and fat today.
18:24
@KitFox OK that first one is illogical.
@KitFox it's OK. you're neither (probably)
irrational. sort of how things work but irrational.
@Mitch Well, it's true, but it's not like I generally dwell on it. Or think about it much ever.
@MattЭллен I'm kind of a little both.
@MattЭллен nice! way to be accurate.
I dreamt that I was visiting a friend and we were playing a card game only instead of using one deck, he was using six and didn't tell me. Then I found out he lived in a shopping mall, in an unused shop/booth that he had renovated with scrap building materials and mouldy carpet. His new kitten was running around the mall, and I caught it, and then it took off, with me on its back, riding it like a horse. Then it got away from me and burrowed into the mouldy carpet and vanished.
18:26
That would have been so much nicer.
it was a weird dream.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Cats are like that. That's why it was weird.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 yes, you could say that :D
I've never ridden a kitten before. It worked surprisingly well considering that it was a normal-sized kitten and I was a normal-sized person.
@MattЭллен I didn't even mention the giant lego-eating toy he had inexplicably bought.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Oh... you rode the cat? yeah, that's pretty effing weird. Cats normally don't stand for that.
18:28
@Mitch yeah. Like in a cartoony "huge rider on tiny steed" kind of way.
But that was only because I was already trying to hold onto the cat and it decided to take off. I never realized it was so strong. We careened around the mall, surprising many shoppers, before it finally escaped me.
Did you have your feet on the kitten's back?
Or were you sitting on it?
Was it a pleasant experience?
I always think it's strange how dreams are so strange. I mean, no one else is in there, it's all you, you should be making up the rules. And why would you make it up so that you're riding a small cat. Wouldn't one naturally think of something more comfortable?
@KitFox kinda sitting on it? or hanging on for dear life?
It's hard to say. Dreams don't always make sense.
certainly not mine.
Anyway, it was a cute cat.
It depends on the purpose of the dream.
Maybe the point wasn't the riding, but the preventing from escaping.
And that had nothing to do with comfort.
ponders
18:31
I don't usually ascribe meaning or purpose to my dreams.
I can sometimes attribute causes.
I think the point was there was a Lego store involved.
Maybe a video I saw about ferrets playing in styrofoam packing peanuts triggered the cat part.
@Mitch No, not lego store. lego-eating toy.
Oh. See, that's how dreams work. other people pick out things they think are important but really weren't there.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 So you are feeling like your children are going to destroy your lego collection?
@KitFox not really
18:36
And you feel naturally ambivalent about it?
I'm sure they'll lose some parts here or there. but that's really just an excuse to buy more lego.
I wonder if I can convince my husband to play hooky with me tomorrow.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 don't you have the problem of stepping on them in the middle of the night? worst pain ever.
I think we could use a day together.
@Mitch You've never had kidney stones, huh?
@KitFox I think if you had a lego in there instead you'd say otherwise.
18:39
@Mitch I don't leave them on the floor and the kids don't play with them unsupervised nor anywhere that I walk at night.
Kidney lego.
I've installed an add-on called Cookiemonster.
om nom nom nom nom
actually, that's probably a good description of a kidney stone..like having a lego piece pushed through your ureter.
no I haven't had a kidney stone.
My littlest sounds soooo cute when he shouts "No, don't eat me, Mommy!"
18:40
@KitFox they really do sound like they sucked on helium.
Haha.
Shit.

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