English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Robusto

19:00

@jlliagre What exactly does that show?

M.A.R.

@Mitch you are godless and forsaken. Also next time don't attack that juicy steak like a hungry lion

More like a full lion, playfully swatting at the meat

jlliagre

@Robusto The percentage of plurals vs singular.

Robusto

@M.A.R. Who you gonna believe, me or your lion eyes?

MetaEd

@M.A.R. there is no swatting at the meat in this chat.

Robusto

@jlliagre I only see one line int he diagram.

jlliagre

19:01

@Robusto Yes, that's the percentage.

GratefulDisciple

@M.A.R. So what's the typical curriculum for high-school level "Islamic teachings" and the subsequent Howzeh? I would think by graduation at the minimum you would completely understand the Qur'an and the tafsir (commentary) of all the verses (ayats)?

Mitch

@Robusto "aircrafts simply can't get off the ground"

jlliagre

@MetaEd I don't understand the idiom, if any.

Mitch

🔥🔥🔥

Robusto

@jlliagre Percentage of what?

M.A.R.

19:02

@MetaEd I thought we liked this chat in the raw

Robusto

@Mitch I was rather proud of that one.

jlliagre

@Robusto "two aircrafts" vs "two aircraft".

If I ask "two aircraft" vs "two aircraft", I got a flat 100% line.

Mitch

@Robusto It shows that... ahem .. aircrafts is really taking off.

Robusto

@jlliagre Whatever. But aircraft is its own plural.

jlliagre

@Robusto That's a native English speaker opinion but NNS outnumber them :-)

yesterday, by jlliagre

@alphabet So an airplane is a piece of aircraft? That doesn't fly :-)

M.A.R.

19:05

@GratefulDisciple nah. Quran is ancient and poetic. Understanding it requires high fluency in Arabic. Arabic taught in junior high and high school is notoriously bad. It's taught to everyone, but in this specialty they're probably taught an extra grammar rule or two, and the exams are probably harder.

Robusto

@jlliagre Yes, and homeopathic medicine gives standard medicine a run for its money. Or you could try prayer. That always works.

M.A.R.

Oh, I misread. If you mean Howzeh, then yeah, totally. Full understanding.

jlliagre

@Robusto That's an unfair comparison.

Robusto

@M.A.R. I can't look at that word without thinking of "Yowzah" ...

Mitch

As Frank Zappa used to say "Howzeh Howzeh Howzeh"

Cerberus

19:06

@GratefulDisciple Isn't theological academia a bit of an oxymoron, or an anachronism?

Mitch

@Cerberus Rather... scholastic.

Robusto

@jlliagre I calls 'em as I sees 'em.

Mitch

THank you thank you...I won't be here all night.

Cerberus

@GratefulDisciple At the university of Amsterdam, I think the study of theology (which had already turned into something else but in name) has been abolished.

MetaEd

@Mitch "try the meat"

M.A.R.

19:09

@Robusto well it's probably its antiparticle. If I look at that building excitement REALLY doesn't come to mind

Mitch

Dancin' Fool

►

Robusto

Aug 1 at 0:09, by Robusto

Frank Zappa - The Sheik Yerbouti Tango (Visualizer)

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Cerberus

@MetaEd What is that work about?

Mitch

wait...are you clairvoyant?

Cerberus

@Mitch I will have you give me the summary, then.

MetaEd

19:11

@Cerberus it's an LOTR parody, very low-brow

M.A.R.

But anyhow I wouldn't call most mullahs fluent in Arabic in the traditional sense. Most wouldn't be able to converse in Arabic without stuttering

Mitch

@Cerberus It's a pretty thin book.

Cerberus

@MetaEd Worth it?

Mitch

Actually more of a novella.

Cerberus

@Mitch Or perhaps a brochure?

Mitch

19:13

@Cerberus Have you ever seen those pamphlets from Jehovah's Witnesses, called 'The Watchtower'? LIke that but maybe just one page. On. one side.

jlliagre

@Robusto Anyway, we reached similar conclusions.

MetaEd

@Cerberus depends on whether you have a low-brow sense of humor

Mitch

with large margins.

Cerberus

@Mitch Yes, we have those too.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus I wouldn't call a Bible school "academia", but institutions like Harvard Divinity School (MA, USA), Faculty of Theology and Religion (Oxford, UK), Department of Theology of the University of Notre Dame (IN, USA), Westminster Theological Seminary (PA, USA), etc. qualify as "academia" since they do research, journals, have peer review process, etc. The problem is how they interface with the rest of non-theological academic institutions.

jlliagre

19:13

yesterday, by jlliagre

@Criggie Aircrafts is taking off. Cruising altitude should be reached in just a couple of millenia, maybe sooner.

Cerberus

So we go from book to leaflet.

Or perhaps a note?

MetaEd

@Cerberus may I recommend a B-flat

Vikas

Robusto

@jlliagre I leave you people by yourselves for ten days and it's a madhouse in here.

Cerberus

@GratefulDisciple I think we may still have some of those here. But I'm not sure whether I'd call those actually academic, considering their premises.

@MetaEd Hmm major or minor? I'm not good with music.

jlliagre

19:15

> Well, if it's a trend you see, it's one that isn't likely to overtake the other in the next millennium or two. – Robusto Commented Nov 1, 2011 at 0:15

Cerberus

@Robusto We're in the doghouse.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus Are you in Netherlands? Do you have an example?

Robusto

@Cerberus That's kind of inevitable, I think.

Cerberus

@GratefulDisciple Yes. I mean, believing in the supernatural, in the modern world: is that really an academic mindset?

I see almost all former programmes of theology are now religion studies here.

@Robusto Yes. It's nice, huh?

Robusto

No afterlife for you. You had your chants and you blew it.

jlliagre

19:18

@Cerberus What? Homeopathy doesn't work??

Mitch

@Robusto I'm not gonna say anything.

Robusto

You just did.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus The way I understand it (as an insider, a Christian) is that in the "academia" we study "about God" and in the religious practice (including going to church to worship, to reflect, to pray, and to listen to the word of God being preached) we "interact with God". Two very separate activity, but for those Christians welcoming the life of the mind, we use both.

Mitch

@Cerberus maybe the comparison should be with ESP. Nobody -really- believes in magic.

Cerberus

@jlliagre Of course homoeopathy works, I have a PhD in it. Its effectiveness can be up to 1^(1/100).

Mitch

19:21

I went to homeopathy school for a day and became a professor.

GratefulDisciple

The debate is whether a theologian who does NOT believe in God can contribute meaningfully to the study of theology. To me, I think they can, if they follow academic processes and discipline, so they can contribute to studying "about God" historically, topically, analyzing the topic philosophically, interpret the Bible in a new way, study practices (like prayer) across time, etc.

jlliagre

@Cerberus Relieved

Robusto

Cop Land (10/11) Movie CLIP - You People Are All the Same (1997) HD

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Mitch

@GratefulDisciple all academic theologians have to be doubters of -some- kind in order to be viable. Now we've moved the conversation to how much.

Cerberus

@GratefulDisciple For that person, my question would be: why would anyone who doesn't believe in the supernatural study it in an internal way, as opposed to the way of sociology or history etc.?

And: how can the supernatural be the object of internal study in academia?

@jlliagre Yes, you shall be if you buy this potion.

It's only €300/week.

jlliagre

19:25

@Cerberus Okay, I'll pay that but homeopathically.

Cerberus

That's fine.

You can put your coins under that microscope there.

jlliagre

@Cerberus Okay, one cent per (age of the Universe)^100.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus I think it's because theology has its own first principles & distinct topics of concern which cannot be reduced to history, sociology, psychology, etc. It studies doctrines (product of believers and church institutions believed to be guided by the Holy Spirit), texts interpreted AS inspired word of God in addition to non-religious dimensions (like literature) and human psyche that includes the dimension which psychology & sociology & anthropology discard as irrelevant.

Cerberus

@jlliagre Do you have that kind of money on hand?

jlliagre

@Cerberus No yet, I need to wash them better.

Cerberus

19:30

Always washing.

But, really, ten billion to the hundredth power cents: that is quite a bit.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus Supernatural as object of study would be mostly studying second hand reporting of saints, apostles, prophets, etc codified in their diaries and books of the Bible. Those who analyze their own experience are not usually considered academics.

jlliagre

@Cerberus Gosh, I'm broke.

GratefulDisciple

@Mitch Rather than having the requirement to be "doubters of some-kind", I would rather rephrase it as "being able to explain Christianity to doubters" using a rhetoric that both sides can find plausible. So to be "viable" one DOES need to be able to listen well to arguments of doubters without having to be doubter yourself.

Cerberus

@GratefulDisciple I think theology takes the supernatural seriously. I think that is where the issue with modern academia lies.

alphabet

@jlliagre I actually wouldn't be surprised if this new usage was substantially more common among native speakers.

GratefulDisciple

19:37

At the risk of being accused to promote Gavin Ortlund, an example of a "viable" candidate would be his conversation with an atheist on a very difficult problem of Divine Hiddenness.

MetaEd

@Cerberus how about a major minor note

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus I can accept that as the distinguishing factor, yes ("takes the supernatural seriously"). Personally I do wish more interaction between the two parts of academia, maybe through the Religious Studies department.

MetaEd

@Mitch I went to homeopathy school for 10 M days. It was interesting at first but after a few days I was totally bored

GratefulDisciple

I'm a fan of the Closer to Truth TV programs that investigate the supernatural from various angles.

Robusto

@GratefulDisciple Is one of the angles utter disbelief?

GratefulDisciple

19:41

@Robusto The host is an atheist. But he is informed enough about theology to interview theologians intelligently. And for each religiously-tinged topic he interviews both atheists and religionists.

Robusto

@GratefulDisciple Do you believe atheism is a belief or a non-belief?

jlliagre

@alphabet I don't think so. I believe most NNS would spontaneously use aircrafts unless they are explained the strange rule and that explanation is probably not done a lot.

Cerberus

@MetaEd I'm afraid musical theory leaves me in the dust there.

@jlliagre Although I think most of them would say airplanes.

jlliagre

@Cerberus Right, or better: planes.

Cerberus

Or that.

GratefulDisciple

19:44

@Robusto I believe atheism is a philosophical position about the status of the supernatural. Whether I call that position a "belief" is secondary. For myself, a believer, I consider my stance to be rational, adopting the meaning of "rational" in the medieval sense, that allows room for the supernatural to be included in rational investigation. That's because Aquinas holds reason and faith to be complementary.

Robusto

@jlliagre It's not a strange rule, since it crops up in other nouns of the same class (those that take the singular for a plural). Take fish, for example. Even little children get the difference.

One Fish, Two Fish, Red Fish, Blue Fish

One Fish, Two Fish, Red Fish, Blue Fish (stylized as One fish two fish red fish blue fish) is a 1960 children's book by Dr. Seuss. As of 2001, over six million copies of the book had been sold, placing it 13th on a list of "All-Time Bestselling Children's Books" from Publishers Weekly. Based on a 2007 online poll, the United States' National Education Association labor union listed the book as one of its "Teachers' Top 100 Books for Children". It is a simple rhyming book for beginning readers, with a freewheeling plot about a boy and a girl named Jay and Kay and the many amazing creatures they...

alphabet

@jlliagre Makes sense, but I think native speakers are never taught this rule.

jlliagre

@Robusto Don't underestimate the number of fishes out there.

GratefulDisciple

@Robusto Sorry to answer in a round-about way, because the word "belief" itself is tinged with a bias already. And I have to go. Talk to you guys later. @Cerberus @M.A.R. @Mitch

jlliagre

@alphabet Sure, they are native speakers.

Robusto

19:47

Marvelettes Too Many fish In The Sea TV studio 1965

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alphabet

@MetaEd I spent 3 minutes studying homeopathy and then 10 years doing other things. Diluting my studies made them more effective.

MetaEd

@alphabet super effective!

jlliagre

@alphabet Native French are (almost) never taught the gender of nouns, that doesn't mean it's not a major issue for English speakers learning French (or Spanish, German, whatever).

Mitch

@MetaEd you might say... A bit watered down

MetaEd

@Mitch watered UP

alphabet

19:50

0

Q: American pronunciation disparity between Longman and Cambridge dictionary for the word "character"

I found that there are many disparities between different dictionaries especially for American pronunciation. for example the word "character" pronunciation in Longman is /ˈkærəktər/ and in Cambridge it is /ˈker.ək.tɚ/. I also checked Youglish and I guess I can hear both sounds in different vide...

^ I suggest reopening. Close voters complained that there's "no standard pronunciation," but there's a specific reason for this discrepancy that is rather interesting.

Also: part of OP's question--"Is it regional variations?"--has an answer.

jlliagre

@Robusto Having such a class of nouns is arbitrary. It is impossible for learners to guess arbitrary rules while the ones who follow some sort of logic are easier to grasp. Of course, I don't expect languages to be logic, that would be as boring as Esperanto is.

Robusto

@jlliagre English is chock full of weirdness, I agree.

Mitch

@alphabet to be blunt, those close voters have a great tendency to VTC directly out of the own ignorance,

Of course there's a standard.

Well multiple ones

And even if the possibilities were in free variation even for repeat utterances by an individual, the variances are still knowable.

It's not anything goes.

M.A.R.

20:07

@GratefulDisciple see ya

Oh for the love of

Cerberus

@alphabet Done.

Younglish is pretty cool, by the way.

Also works for other languages.

jlliagre

@Cerberus No nostalgia for Oldglish?

Cerberus

Perhaps there is such a site too?

Robusto

Wordle 1,159 4/6

⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛
⬛🟨⬛⬛⬛
🟨🟩🟨⬛⬛
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

jlliagre

@Cerberus Neither of these, I believe.

Cerberus

20:17

Alas.

Oh, I misspole: Youglish it is.

youglish.com/pronounce/character/english/us

jlliagre

@Cerberus That was the joke, yes.

Cerberus

Lets you type a word, and it will automatically play Youtube videos at time frames where that word is said.

jlliagre

Yes, I use it a lot.

Cerberus

@jlliagre Your 'neither' made me look it up again.

jlliagre

Glad I'm able to communicate.

M.A.R.

20:21

There's a badge on the main site for successfully communicating

Cerberus

When you observe a group of humans, what is the most striking difference from groups of all other animals?

jlliagre

@Cerberus They don't sniff each other's butts?

Cerberus

They are in constant communication, exchanging huge amounts of information.

I believe other animals do not do this.

They may chirp and twitter at each other, but that does not have a high density of information.

It is nothing like talking.

jlliagre

Daily Octordle #940
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Score: 72

Daily Sequence Octordle #940
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Score: 78

Mitch

20:41

@Cerberus maybe they're just politer, letting the sounds sink in, thinking about what was really said, and not butting in all the time.

Also standing upright on two legs. That just looks weird.

Like meerkats.

Cerberus

Meercats probably also chatter.

But it is nothing like us.

Mitch

We should call them weirdkats because of this

@Cerberus the cadence of human speech is quantifiably different. But the content of one utterances of a bird tweeting? I don't think we know enough yet to say 'naw it's just tweeting and nothing more'

jlliagre

@Mitch Formerly tweeting, now they X.

Mitch

I mean I highly suspect you're right, I just don't think it has been justified well that nonhumans just don't impart info like us

@jlliagre EM ruined it for the birds.

Cerberus

@Mitch I think we know enough!

jlliagre

20:45

@Mitch That's human exceptionalism.

Mitch

@Cerberus I don't see no birds building no pyramids

They don't call it bird brained for nothing

@jlliagre I mean sometimes we're right

Have you heard about how elephants make noises that are pretty much individual specific vocatives?

Wait...

Maybe I heard that hear first.

I certainly didn't hear it from some elephant.

They've stopped calling me.

There was that thing that one time

They'll never forget.

Robusto

#WhenTaken #176 (21.08.2024)

I scored 840/1000 🎉

1️⃣ 📍 55 km - 🗓️ 0 yrs - ⚡ 197 / 200
2️⃣ 📍 6817 km - 🗓️ 1 yrs - ⚡ 112 / 200
3️⃣ 📍 75 km - 🗓️ 1 yrs - ⚡ 195 / 200
4️⃣ 📍 185 km - 🗓️ 1 yrs - ⚡ 192 / 200
5️⃣ 📍 2326 km - 🗓️ 3 yrs - ⚡ 144 / 200

https://whentaken.com

jlliagre

#WhenTaken #176 (21.08.2024)

I scored 867/1000 🎉

1️⃣ 📍 192.1 metres - 🗓️ 15 yrs - ⚡ 170 / 200
2️⃣ 📍 119 km - 🗓️ 0 yrs - ⚡ 195 / 200
3️⃣ 📍 767 km - 🗓️ 0 yrs - ⚡ 177 / 200
4️⃣ 📍 2 km - 🗓️ 1 yrs - ⚡ 199 / 200
5️⃣ 📍 3305 km - 🗓️ 8 yrs - ⚡ 126 / 200

https://whentaken.com

Robusto

@jlliagre I got the "when" pretty well, but not the "where" ...

jlliagre

@Robusto Did you google?

Robusto

21:11

@jlliagre No.

jlliagre

@Robusto Okay. #5 was unguessable. What did you guess on #2?

Robusto

@jlliagre Spoiler

@jlliagre How about you? I think you probably guessed a "usual suspect."

jlliagre

@Robusto Spoiler

Robusto

@jlliagre You can read those better than I can then.

BTW, when I mentioned "usual suspect" I was thinking of #5.

jlliagre

Yes, I understood it afterwards.

Spoiler

Robusto

21:27

On #1 you were taken in by the Two-Tone Trap.

Cerberus

Ugh I'm not hovering I'm not hovering...

jlliagre

@Robusto Yes.

Robusto

@Cerberus Hurry up, we wanna talk!

Cerberus

21:47

Oh I am multitasking.

You can talk and I won't open the tab until I'm done!

alphabet

21:59

@Cerberus Yeah, I've used it to find examples of different pronunciations to link in answers/comments.

@Cerberus Raccoons typically aren't. When you're knowledgeable enough on your own, it's less necessary.

Cerberus

Just wondering idly, what does racoon meat taste like?

jlliagre

1ST TIME EATING RACCOON | Delafield Coon Feed | Delafield Legion Post 196

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4'50"

Criggie

errrr -

that

That's what we would locally call "poking the bear"

I'm anticipating the response from our resident trash expert.....

Aside - pre-quake we had a local restaurant called Henry Africa's.
Can't find their menu online, but they offered all sorts of weird meats, like Kangaroo and Alligator and Ostrich.
They had faked-up animals like Elephant and Rhino that was fancy beef (clearly denoted)

One of their signatures was Gorilla Balls, which was two deep fried balls of icecream and a single banana. Delicious.

Dannyu NDos

22:20

This doesn't actually contain raccoon or tanuki but whatever

Criggie

22:44

The main text reads as "ATA" to me, or" UTU"

jlliagre

RTA upside down.

misk94555

23:20

“He that is surety for a stranger shall smart for it [...] ”
Book of Proverbs in King James Version
Proverbs "wise" is a good thing, and "smart" stands for bad things.

Robusto

23:35

@misk94555 Well, smart just refers to a sharp pain, like that given by a slap or a whip on the skin.

Daily Octordle #940
3️⃣7️⃣
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Score: 66

Robusto

23:54

Daily Sequence Octordle #940
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Score: 59

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…