English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

CowperKettle

00:50

Swarms of AI "killer robots" are the future of war: If that sounds scary, it should

Robusto

Wordle 981 5/6

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Daily Octordle #762
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Daily Sequence Octordle #762
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CowperKettle

01:18

Verb of the day: to corpse (Poor Damian corpsed and almost forgot his next lines. The director gave him a terrific lecture, and Alan caught hell from stage management.)

@Vikas In Russia, the 5G range unfortunately is part of the range long ago given to the military, so there's almost no 5G here.

Cellular companies were given the 4,4-4,99 Ghz range instead of the standard 3.4-3.8 range for 5G, but this new range clashes with some municipal users and state uses, too, so in each city and town measures must be taken to keep their ranges apart, to calculate the distances, etc.

Some think that Russia will adopt 6G before it gets to adopt 5G due to all these issues

Dannyu NDos

01:41

I'm lovin' it

tchrist

@DannyuNDos "it"?

What is the image of?

Laurel

@tchrist K-McDonald's

tchrist

@Laurel Nothing but mayo and lettuce on the burgers? Interesting choice.

Dannyu NDos

02:09

McChicken and Bulgogi Burger, they are.

Mitch

@DannyuNDos Awesome!

You know, there's nothing stopping you from also having KFC

Oh man if you like KFC you'll love Popeye's.

Dannyu NDos

It was interesting that Popeye's withdrew from South Korea in 2020 but returned in 2022.

Mitch

tchrist

02:58

> H. W. Fowler (1926): "Welsh Rabbit is amusing and right. Welsh Rarebit is stupid and wrong."

> Ambrose Bierce (1911): "Rarebit n. A Welsh rabbit, in the speech of the humorless, who point out that it is not a rabbit. To whom it may be solemnly explained that the comestible known as toad in the hole is really not a toad, and that ris de veau à la financière is not the smile of a calf prepared after the recipe of a she banker."

Welsh rarebit

Welsh rarebit or Welsh rabbit ( or ) is a dish of hot cheese sauce served on toasted bread. The original 18th-century name of the dish was the jocular "Welsh rabbit", which was later reinterpreted as "rarebit", as the dish contains no rabbit. Variants include English rabbit, Scotch rabbit, buck rabbit, golden buck, and blushing bunny. Though there is no strong evidence that the dish originated in Welsh cuisine, it is sometimes identified with the Welsh caws pobi 'baked cheese', documented in the 1500s. == Sauce == Some recipes simply melt grated cheese on toast, making it identical to cheese on...

> A drug is a substance which, when injected into a rat, produces a scientific paper.

Mitch

03:23

@tchrist I was expecting a link to a recipe involving 'she-bankers'

Dannyu NDos

Fun fact: In Korean, the number 1004 sounds exactly the same as an "angel".

And I'm on Sejong bus route #1004 rn.

tchrist

@Mitch spinner : spinster :: banker : _______

Robusto

03:53

@tchrist spinner : spinster :: banker : Banksie

M.A.R.

04:25

@Robusto well, I phrased that poorly. Pleasure seeking may as well be happiness for some but I prefer . . . Contentment? I dunno. Something subtler and more lasting.

@DannyuNDos you call buses angels? Ours are more like lung cancer-dealing demons

@tchrist ouch

M.A.R.

04:43

@CowperKettle I'm gonna be cynical and say articles like this are useless. If there ever comes a time when public opinion matters in the development and deployment of such new weaponry, they will be whipped to shape with hysteria and enough people will be thirsty for blood that public opinion wouldn't hinder much of anything.

The only real countermeasure is if people consider other people in enemy states to be humans, to feel close.

Otherwise, people find strong tools for destruction more fascinating than terrifying.

alphabet

@M.A.R. That seems realistic. On a related note, CNN just released a documentary called "Why Iran Hates America." It seems a bit...less than humanizing.

Apparently Iran's ancient Persian heritage explains why it is such a "a very proud and nationalistic country" that dislikes America's government. Sure.

M.A.R.

Mounts horse To arms, brothers!

@alphabet Well, I've made peace with the fact that if a war breaks out here tomorrow, people around the world will be as mildly concerned as they usually are about Palestine and Yemen.

I've also noticed that American cough historians cough don't abandon the high ground when talking about the 1953 coup. They're treating it like a silly mistake, "oh, maybe don't leave the cup on the table next time, coffee stains are annoying"

alphabet

05:02

@M.A.R. I would say that younger progressives here are more than mildly concerned about Palestine. Unfortunately, we currently have a President with all the mental acuity of a poorly-trained parrot.

@M.A.R. I think most people regard it as morally indefensible, at least in my generation, but I'm not sure if there's been any poll about it.

M.A.R.

@alphabet I tend to think the group you mention are a powerless minority. They will occasionally get something done, make a difference, but are often swept aside.

Like all the other powerless minorities in Iran or Russia, except we don't have that small chance either, at least not yet.

alphabet

Well, most people who know about it regard it as morally indefensible. The news doesn't tend to discuss it much, presumably because people want to forget it.

M.A.R.

@alphabet well, it was quite a while ago. People are right that America and Americans were different.

alphabet

@M.A.R. Biden has certainly been less blindly supportive of Israel due to pressure within the party.

M.A.R.

It's been true for quite a while now that the Iranian theocracy is doing much more to foster hatred towards Americans than the US government towards Iranians.

Though the likes of Trump seem inclined to change that

@alphabet well, what does that exactly mean?

alphabet

05:12

48% of voters 18-29 think Israel is intentionally killing civilians. 67% think Israel should stop its military campaign. 55% think the US should end military aid to Israel. 46% sympathize more with Palestinians, versus only 27% with Israelis.

M.A.R.

I mean, I hear this or that politician or organization is more or less pro-Israel, but to someone not paying much attention such as myself, I still see the weapon and other deals being made post haste, and Israel seems to be doing whatever the heck it wants

alphabet

Per the most recent poll.

The problem is, of course, many members of the older generations. Like Biden's.

M.A.R.

Say, if Trump was POTUS now, would Israel have gotten more, I dunno, jets and bombs?

alphabet

Yes, and with even fewer questions asked. Also Trump would have tried to crack down on pro-Palestine protesters by alleging that they're affiliated with Hamas, as Ron DeSantis did.

M.A.R.

It seems to be getting them anyway. Except some random politician or another sometimes grunts and frowns.

alphabet

05:16

Indeed. A majority of my generation opposes this, thankfully, and hopefully activists will continue to put pressure on the Biden administration.

M.A.R.

cfr.org/article/us-aid-israel-four-charts

Military aid seems more or less stable after 1980. Doesn't seem like a significant difference between POTUS's known for being pro- or less pro-Israel.

alphabet

Indeed. The Israel lobby has gotten its way consistently for the past several decades. Fortunately, this conflict seems to have catalyzed the opposition to it. I think most of us (young progressive types) are hoping that this is a turning point, where people finally start to see the Israeli regime for what it is.

M.A.R.

One can only hope

alphabet

05:32

AIPAC is planning on spending $100 million trying to take down just 7 progressive Democrats. They have a ridiculous amount of money and absolutely no compunctions about using it.

alphabet

05:43

But I think younger people are finally starting to understand the truth about Israel's history, which allows one to recognize the purpose and nature of its current campaign.

Not to be all polemical and controversial or anything.

Cerberus

@Mitch There is no strict word order here.

So it should be OK.

@M.A.R. Hah!

alphabet

05:58

I am, as you may know, a mere peaceful and innocent raccoon. Totally not the type to ever sound provocative.

Cerberus

06:29

Nowisesowever.

CowperKettle

07:49

2001: CAMERAS... on PHONES? | BBC News | Retro Tech | BBC Archive

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HippoSawrUs

11:25

@CowperKettle Now that's a great dream. Was the wooden ship creaking like they do in the movies?

HippoSawrUs

11:45

@alphabet Once you attack someone, your children may be killed, and their children… Loosely translated, that's the WCS of measured response.

CowperKettle

@HippoSawrUs No, I don't recall it creaking. Sometimes I was flying inside the sheep, like in a movie a camera might fly to look at different scenes, and once I was a sailor on the top deck, taking part in rotating the capstan

CowperKettle

12:20

Mitch

12:43

@Cerberus Sure, but isn't there a preferred order?

tchrist

14:37

> est me videre tuus dolor
me est videre tuus dolor
est videre me tuus dolor
videre est me tuus dolor
me videre est tuus dolor
videre me est tuus dolor
est me tuus videre dolor
me est tuus videre dolor
est tuus me videre dolor
tuus est me videre dolor
me tuus est videre dolor
tuus me est videre dolor
est videre tuus me dolor
videre est tuus me dolor
est tuus videre me dolor
tuus est videre me dolor
videre tuus est me dolor
tuus videre est me dolor
me videre tuus est dolor
videre me tuus est dolor

Tomorrow's lesson: Beati hispani quibus vivere est bibere.

> Τὸ δὲ ζῆν, εἰπέ μοι,
τί ἐστι; τὸ πίνειν φήμ´ ἐγώ.

> Haud temere antiquas mutat Vasconia voces
Cui nihil est aliud vivere quam bibere

This is a better example of something that does require a specific order:

> “Bonosus domo Hispaniensi fuit, origine Britannus, Galla tamen matre, ut ipse dicebat, rhetoris filius, … dux limitis Raetici fuit, bibit quantum hominum nemo. de hoc Aurelianus saepe dicebat, "Non ut vivat natus est, sed ut bibat," Historiae Augustae, Flavius Vopiscus, Firmus Saturninus Proculus et Bonosus, 14, 1… y 3..)

The bold part, that is.

The sed ut bibat bit, "but to drink", won't work so well if you scramble it or put it before the thing it's contradicting.

"He was born not to live but to drink."

"He was not born to live but to drink."

"To live was he born not but to drink."

But not: "But to drink was he born not to live."

It's not that it would fail grammatically, but rather rhetorically. It just not how lines like this are delivered.

And yes, natus est has a present tense of be, not one of the past tenses. It just sounds better as "was born" in English.

@Mitch You might not pull off all 120 listed permutations of tuus dolor me videre est with equal rhetorical success, but none of those words would inherently become confusing merely by having been moved around in the sentence. It's just two sides of a copula, so we know what it has to mean. It's not like there's a second noun to attract tuus, or a different verb to attract me.

Robusto

15:15

@M.A.R. Pleasure, contentment, happiness—these things are hard to define, and certainly no all-inclusive definitions do or can exist.

CowperKettle

Leaky blood–brain barrier in long-COVID-associated brain fog

Cool.

"They use a technique called dynamic contrast-enhanced magnetic resonance imaging (DCE-MRI), an imaging technique that can measure the density, integrity, and leakiness of tissue vasculature."

tchrist

> Por lo demás existen numerosas variantes de esta frase, que en el fondo dicen lo mismo:

Beati Hispani quibus vivere est bibere
Beati Hispani quibus vivere bibere est
Beati Hispani quibus bibere vivere est
Beati Hispani, dum bibere dicunt vivere
O beati hispani, dum vivere dicunt bibere

CowperKettle

Beautiful Spaniards equal life to drinking?

tchrist

@Mitch There the writer himself points out the historical flexibility of the word order in that storied refrain.

@CowperKettle Blessèd are the Spanish to whom living is drinking.

CowperKettle

Ah!

Beatitude

tchrist

15:20

Yes.

Robusto

@M.A.R. Most perceptive readers of history will agree that the US destroyed Iranian democracy, possibly forever. We have a long history of "liberating" countries in this way. It's what we said we were doing in Vietnam, for example. And it's why we have such paradoxical dumb-ass comments like "We had to destroy the village in order to save it."

tchrist

Sometimes it's the Basques or the Gascons on whom this blessing is bestowed, depending on the writer.

> Les habitants y prononcent l’V (sic) comme le B, et le B comme l’V; et c’est par cette raison que Scaliger, parlant des Gascons, a dit plaisamment “Flices populi quibus bibere est vivere”.

> L’habitude qu’il (les ancients Vascons) avaient apporté d’Espagne de confondre l'V et le B a fait dire a Scaliger: Felices populi quibus bibere est vivere”.

Erasmus of Rotterdam wrote: Hic peccant et eruditi, vulgus autem, et qui vulgatam pronuntiationem non dedidicerunt, interdum pro b pronuntiant v consonans, et contra, ut vivit pro bibit, et bibit pro vivit. Id peculiare dicitur cuidam Hispaniarum regioni» .

The author mentions that Erasmus is supposedly the author of the alternative Felix natío, ubi vivere est bibere but no written evidence for that has yet been uncovered.

Felix natio = "Happy nation"

Scaliger: Vasconibus quoque hoc est vitium peculiare, ut eo modo pronuncient B quo et Graecos dicimus. Itaque lusimus in eos (Vascones) epigrammate ut eorum vivere bibere sit.

> Ese epigrama, al que el propio Escalígero hace referencia, es el mismo que se atribuía a Marcial, si bien con alguna pequeña modificación : non por haud, mutas por mutat:

> Non temere antiquas mutas, Vasconia, voces,
Cui nihil est aliud vivere quam bibere

CowperKettle

"Bibbers or non-bibbers of illicit potations" (JC Ransom, 1924)

tchrist

@CowperKettle Sweet!

CowperKettle

A poem I love

I memorized it once, a long time ago

tchrist

15:32

bibulosity

Bibbers imbibe vivaciously.

Our scholar summarizes the end of his piece with: ‘En resumen, la conexión conceptual entre vivir y beber es muy antigua; la conexión entre los términos latinos “vivere” y “bibere” también lo es; la frase “beati hispani quibus vivere est bibere” es creación del Humanismo renacentista.’

> To summarize, the conceptual connexion between living and drinking is very ancient, as too is the connexion between the Latin terms vivere and bibere, but the refrain beati hispani quibus vivere est bibere was created by Renaissance Humanism.

He did do a lot of digging around in dusty tomes to get there.

Robusto

15:53

Wordle 982 2/6

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MetaEd

16:08

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Robusto

16:23

Daily Octordle #763
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That one fell apart on the last three words.

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And that one never got started.

CowperKettle

16:44

> "He was hunting for life-extending genes in Caenorhabditis elegans worms when he found that genetically damaging the mitochondria extended the worms’ lives by 50%." quantamagazine.org/…

jlliagre

Wordle 982 3/6

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CowperKettle

> Dillin’s team discovered that the mitochondria in stressed neurons were using vesicles — bubblelike containers that move materials around the cell or between cells — to carry a signal called Wnt beyond the nerve cells to other cells in the body.

Mitochondria send signals to other mitochondria in different cells

jlliagre

17:08

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jlliagre

17:26

Daily Sequence Octordle #763
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AlMa1r

17:42

@tchrist Your reasoning is flawed. english.stackexchange.com/questions/620003/… gives an example with and without a comma. You're absolutely wrong regarding your alleged “opinion”.

@tchrist Concerning “There can be only one”: Please don't spam this chat.

Mast

@AlMa1r Please do not abuse chat flags.

4

AlMa1r

@tchrist Concerning your music, please don't spam this chat.

@Mast That's for a reason. Spam has no place here.

Mast

@AlMa1r I'm telling you not to flag it. Spam is differently defined than how you use it here. If you have a problem with that user, a ping will suffice and you can talk it over like adults.

AlMa1r

@Mast You see all the messages on who wrote what; I've already done what you ask me. Please tell to act “like adults” FIRST to the user who posted irrelevant/chatty contents (“There can be only one” and music) here. Good night!

Mast

@AlMa1r You don't seem to understand the situation. When you flag a post, a lot of users get that as a notification. If you have a problem with how the room is used, you can find a room owner to talk about it and/or ping the person you have a problem with.

Do not use flags for posts that do not break the rules of the network.

AlMa1r

18:01

@Mast I get it, and do you REALLY think that a moderator of English.SE changes his/her behavior if being told so by a low-rep user? He/she should lead by example, after all. Anyhow, I don't care if lots of folks get notified, even under the risk of getting banned from Stackexchange forever. If a moderator of English.SE can get away with such spam as above, this site is a probably wrong place for me anyway. Good night!

Robusto

18:18

@Mast I'm a room owner, and I will state categorically that @tchrist did not behave in such a manner as to warrant flagging. The only one indulging in pugnacious argumentative behavior bordering on abuse here is the one who flagged.

Jakobian

@AlMa1r that doesn't matter. What matters it that you are, clearly intentionally, misusing the system. This is unacceptable. If you think that someone misbehaved in this chatroom, its a matter for the chatroom owners.

Laurel

18:31

In addition to what's already been said, this chat isn't like the main site—we talk about pretty much anything here, including music. Chat is casual and laid back. But there is a standard level of decency that needs to be kept in here.

Robusto

Amen.

alphabet

18:55

@AlMa1r I would agree that this site is probably the wrong place for you.

M.A.R.

@CowperKettle they look more like rods than bubbles though

alphabet

This is not a raccoon - this is perfection

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M.A.R.

@AlMa1r 1) I think you're using a very vague and broad definition of "spam" that conflicts with how everyone else around here defines it. 2) Isn't barging in a chatroom, telling everyone else how it's supposed to be used, sorta presumptuous? 3) I understand that you're upset about question closure (? I'm not following the whole thing closely) but you should stick around and see how things work around the site you're participating it. It's just common courtesy.

Bah, stupid connection

You can have crazy speeds and still timeout here. I have my own personal conspiracy theories about that.

alphabet

Raccoon Babies

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Don't you hate those family YouTubers?

M.A.R.

I can't watch any of these without turning on a VPN. Are you tempting me with haram raccoons?

@alphabet I also mostly hate normal YouTubers, as a rule. With a few exceptions.

I mean, that's essentially how to behave in the age of info barrage.

alphabet

19:05

Kids these days need to be taught practical skills, like theft.

M.A.R.

@Robusto good grief, you can't make this stuff up.

@alphabet if it's movie theft I'm a self-taught pro

Music takes some effort. Especially if you want good quality.

Books are pretty easy. Z-lib has reportedly opened back up, I haven't checked

Mast

libgen never shut down, AFAIK.

Or so I've heard.

alphabet

@M.A.R. Who needs a chador when you have a dense coat of underfur?

Mitch

@Robusto what, are you some kinda commie?

M.A.R.

@Mast aye, but it's like a chicken coop there. I can find textbooks easily enough but for fiction, it's usually a mess

Not to say the scanned crap they shamelessly uploaded to Z-lib wasn't infuriating and typo-ridden either

I read a Le Guin book like that, I can't recall which. It kinda added to the experience.

Mast

19:17

The best ebooks are those which are actually a folder full of images.

Preferably slightly out of order with a couple upside down and/or mirrored.

M.A.R.

Ha

The Gateway epub I downloaded was like that.

Shame really, it had really good jokes in those images. One of the few books where the pictures were essential

Robusto

19:34

@Mitch I don't know that word. Does it mean "anti-fascist"?

Mitch

@Robusto oh. It also means plain old fascist.

As in 'You commie-fascist'

Robusto

Oh, you must mean communist.

Mitch

Well actually I don't have to mean anything at all.

Robusto

Marxist? Leninist? Bolshevik? Marxist-Leninist?

jlliagre

Trotskyist? Maoist?

Robusto

19:46

Here's a real moto-fool. There are 30-mph winds currently, with sand blowing everywhere, and he's out with no helmet, no goggles, no glasses—and, presumably, no brain at all.

I'm guessing he believes it's "woke" to wear a helmet or eye protection.

alphabet

20:12

-1

A: centre vs. center among Americans

Centre came into English via French which is why it is spelt the way it is. Why Webster chose to change it is because as it ended with an "er" sound he thought it should be spelt like that. However, his argument falls over because he never changed fire to fier or hundreds of similiar words. All i...

If you really wanted to reflect typical American pronunciation, it should probably be "cenner." I propose we reform the spelling again.

As in "the cenner of the cidy."

Laurel

@alphabet That's been used as an argument to not reform spelling, actually

Mitch

22:12

@Robusto Buffetist-Castroist

Berkshire-Hathaway meets Che Guevera

The t-shirts are awesome

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…