English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Matt Эллен

16:00

yeah, maybe

if discussion of the post was clearly separate from the post

So maybe the solution then wouldn't be to nuke comment threads, but rather just hide them altogether, and people who consider them noise can ignore them.

Matt Эллен

I have to jet. BBL

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I mean, the chat room has what major differences from comments? 1. it's on a differnet page, i.e. not visible on the original post. 2. you can thread responses.

3. More features, i.e. previews of urls, etc.

KitFox

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Mods cannot move comments to chat.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

But fundamentally "comments" are "chat"... they are almost the exact same species.

KitFox

16:02

It has been requested a thousand years ago.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox that's sad, then.

KitFox

We agree.

Because lots of nice comments could be saved by putting them in a chat room.

Instead, we delete them.

I think it is an interesting idea to link to a discussion chat room.

Maybe you could just create one for the discussion-y questions and link to it as an experiment.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox The problem is that the link needs to be right where the conversation is taking place, for the one or two people involved.

AND they need to be of the kind of user who would actually go into a chat room. I've come across some the outright refuse.

KitFox

Yep.

Lunchtime. BBL

Cerberus

16:28

@tchrist I don't think you should take this all out on @KitFox . She didn't invent this crap. And there's no need to blow this thing out of proportions: we are just in disagreement, that's all. It's just a website.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I suggested exactly this about a year ago. People didn't seem enthusiastic.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Exactly. That's why I suggested an in-line (expandable) chat at the bottom of the comments.

But the problem is this:

57 mins ago, by Robusto

This is really just jack-in-office unpleasantness. How To Turn A Convivial Web Site Into A Bureaucratic PITA. Also available on Audiobooks.

Bureaucracy, and restrictions on our freedom just for the heck of it. That's Jeff's philosophy.

Noah

@Cerberus He has the right to complain about things that he doesnt like, doesnt he?

Cerberus

In theory, yes.

But he got too personal for my taste.

Noah

16:44

@Cerberus And I dont know what comment is he talking about. But I think you are right about the blowing out of proportion part.

simchona

@Noah Can we not rehash the last argument for now? Let's not beat a dead horse.

Cerberus

@Noah Good.

Noah

@Cerberus anyways, hope things work out for them and you guys.

Cerberus

Don't worry.

It's just a ripple.

Noah

@simchona Sorry, didn't know a mod was looking over my shoulder. Will not happen again:)

user19161

16:52

@Noah I see no mods over my shoulder here...

Noah

@JasperLoy I guess you have got no shoulders:)

All right gotta motor, see you guys.

Cerberus

Bai.

►

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 This game is on sale for half the price now (Android).

I must say it sounds pretty funny and it looks pretty good for a mobile game. If you're into RPGs.

play.google.com/store/apps/…

Do you use App Sales, by the way?

play.google.com/store/apps/…..

It tells you of applications that are on sale.

KitFox

17:10

Oh Bard's Tale. I haven't played that in ages.

Cerberus

Was it fun?

On what platform?

Jez

the place i now work at is weird.

they say stuff is important, then they act like it isn't.

i have almost no supervision, even though i'm new to the place and the only person working on this project

Matt Эллен

like saying "personal space is important" while being being sat in your lap?

Jez

i can't really figure out the ethos of the place

user19161

It takes time to figure things out. Not everything is like fries.

Jez

17:23

as i said, what they say and how they act seem to be contradictory

Cerberus

Ah, yes.

That sort of place.

You will get used to it.

And understand how it works.

It could be that they're too unstructured and inefficient.

Or that they just don't guide new employees well.

user19161

@Cerberus You spoiled the staircase structure with the last line.

Cerberus

Stairs have to end at some point!

They were pretty uncomfortable and uneven.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I'm not into RPGs but my phone is shite for the kind of game I do like (FPSes) so.... it might be worth looking into.

Cerberus

How is it shite? You're talking about my phone there, Mister!!

crossed arms

prepared to lock arms

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

17:31

well, don't be alarmed. All touch-screen devices are shite for playing first-person-shooters. You need a mouse, or some other rapid-input device. and you need to be able to easily do several things at once (move, aim, shoot, change weapons, reload, jump, duck, etc)

so far that kind of game is way beyond current touch-screens unless you also prop it up on something and add an external controller

and I'm unconvinced about the notion of playing an FPS with a typical game system controller. The mouse is just too fast. too good.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 If you're slow, you can just make your enemies slower too, and you can still have the right difficulty level?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Is a mouse better than a controller?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus If it's slow, it's no longer a first-person shooter. More like, say, chess.

Cerberus

I suppose you can aim more accurately.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus yes. definitely.

you can aim more quickly.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Aren't you exaggerating a bit?

I don't like FPSs anyway, always found them boring...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

17:38

@Cerberus No. A first person shooter is meant to be realistic. Not simply "difficult".

Cerberus

Hrmpf.

I don't get the genre.

So repetitious.

I usually play a mage in RPGs, and frankly the point-and-shoot thing is just yawn.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

well, you don't have to enjoy it to understand that if you slow down the game so that a person can meaningfully react on a touch-screen, you no longer have the same game.

Cerberus

Maybe.

Matt Эллен

I'm with Mr Shiny on this

FPS is best with mouse and keyboard

Cerberus

Another problem is that you can't see what you're doing if you're pressing your finger on the screen.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

17:40

@Cerberus I find most RPGs just boring. No action, and so much tedious repetition. Go here, and you must frobulate the frobulator in order to collect a plot coupon. bring the coupon to some dude in a faraway place in order to advance.

@Cerberus yes, that too.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Those bits are boring, yes. A good RPG should have zero run-and-fetch missions, and either turn-based or highly varied combat.

And the advances should not be "OMG now I am allowed to spend another skill point on dexterity! Now my chances of opening chests within 5 minutes are increased by 7.3 percent!".

That's boring.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well, I like my combat to be "first person" and my game to have a story and some element of decision-making. A perfect example of this would be Bioshock, where you can upgrade your character in-game and your actions can change the story of the game.

Cerberus

An advance should be large and significant, not slow and gradual.

Matt Эллен

Guild Wars 2 has mitigated part of the boring part by having you be able to participate without having to meet the person who's doled out the quest

there are still some fetch missions though

you can do them in passing though, so it's not as bad

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Those two things are RPG elements. That is, they are also to some degree common in shooters, but they are RPG themselves.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

17:44

Another example is Jedi Academy, where your actions at certain points are either dark-side or light-side and if you choose dark-side then the game gets significantly harder because your allies abandon you.

@Cerberus Yes but the rest of the RPG is boring.

Cerberus

Like which?

Grinding is also boring.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Well, I don't play them, because I find them boring.

Cerberus

I believe on-line RPGs have that, but I have never played any.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Which rest, I meant?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus The gameplay itself. I simply find a lot of it not that interesting.

Cerberus

The core of a good RPG is interesting, varied combat + interesting story line + interesting advancement.

tchrist

17:46

Are you talking about computer games, or real games?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

computer games

tchrist

It’s weird to think of those as role-playing.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 If you presuppose these three ^ properties, is there still something you dislike about RPGs in particular?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I dunno. perhaps not. But I avoid the whole genre because every time I try to play I am bored.

Cerberus

Okay.

Have you played Fallout?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

17:47

whereas I still play FPS games, even if I have already played them before. I am currently working my way through Quake again.

No

Cerberus

The point is that many RPGs are FPSs and many FPSs are RPGs.

tchrist

Ick.

We have a gaming group here that gets together once or twice a month.

Cerberus

That is, many games that are mainly RPGs have tons of shooting combat, and many games that are mainly shooters have lots of RPG elements, like story decisions, advancement, collecting.

tchrist

I mean, just a bunch of my friends, not some club or anything.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 So what do you like about Quake?

tchrist

17:48

None of the games require batteries. :)

Different crowd, perhaps.

Cerberus

I don't mean to be rude, but my problem is that I just don't like aiming and shooting enough to play an entire game of it.

I like it occasionally, as in Thief. There it was fun. I like shooting a single arrow just at the right time to kill.

I hate spamming shots.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I dunno. it's fun. Also nostalgic. But there is something about a good FPS that is essentially amusing to play. Some FPSes are simply not fun. Like Daikatana. That game was just annoying from the get-go, despite its technical abilities.

Cerberus

I also hate bashing my sword on some dude again and again. A few well-times strokes should be enough. I like real-time combat if there is an element of observation and timing, and various techniques.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

There is something visceral about hiding from monsters, springing traps, and fighting for your life.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Hmm.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I am not unsympathetic to that—but why can't it have more varied combat?

I also hate when a game spams enemies on you that are individually meaningless.

tchrist

17:52

FPS as "nostalgic"? Really? Guess nostalgia just ain’t what it used to be.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well, what is "varied combat"? Some FPSes have swords and other close-range weapons, some have magic, some have guns, some have other things like trip-mines or traps....

Cerberus

I like enemies that are meaningful and dangerous.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I think there needs to be some element of timing, and different techniques.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well, there is something somewhat terrifying about being swarmed by monsters and feeling the "shit- I don't have enough shotgun shells for this" feeling.

@Cerberus Well, there are different enemies and some require different approaches. At least, in most modern games.

Cerberus

I prefer to be swarmed only rare in games; most of the time I just want one or a few meaningful enemies, not an endless stream.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

in Jedi Academy I learned that if you have levelled-up your force-choke, you can essentially grab enemies and fling them into pits to their deaths.

Cerberus

17:54

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, that is something.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

In Half-Life (1998), some enemies can only be killed by manipulating the environment, i.e. flooding an area, or setting off an electrical discharge, or something.

Then later on, as you acquire bigger weapons, you achieve the potential of killing them outright.

Cerberus

How do you feel about combat where you have to observe the enemy well, and hack your sword at just the right angle to break his Giant Swoop of Doom, then deal out a heavy blow as he is recovering?

Or blocking just at the right time?

I find that more fun.

Or combos.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Sure, that's fine. That happens in some FPSes too. However, that's usually so contrived as to seem silly. Why not just blast him with everything you have?

Cerberus

See, that goes counter to my sense of fun.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus There are combos. In Bioshock you can do the "electric-bolt/lead pipe" combo which stuns the opponent so that you can dispatch him with your lead pipe. or wrench or whatever it was.

Cerberus

17:57

Maybe I want to do that a few times in a game.

Mitch

@Robusto "You know, The Two Towers is a little dull. I mean loooong. We didn't need that much description about the forest, because it's pretty much the same forest all the way."

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes. But I don't want these things to be used occasionally: I want them to be the core of the combat.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I dunno. the whole "this enemy is completely invulnerable except for one precise weak spot which you must discover and then repeatedly exploit" is pretty lame.

Cerberus

It is.

But discovering a weak spot occasionally can be fun.

The problem is repetition.

Many RPGs are ruined by boring combat.

Like Oblivion, for me.

RegDwighт

Why is everyone but @Rob an avid enthusiast and not an expert?

Cerberus

17:59

Everyone but Rob is modest?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwighт on ELL?

Cerberus

I read expert at having some kind of degree.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus or at least training

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…