English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

12:02

Since when are comments removed just because they are not pertinent to the answer/question?

Matt Эллен

since always

Cerberus

I object.

Matt Эллен

I flagged a comment of yours once @Cerb :D

Cerberus

As long as they are interesting and/or not bothering anyone, I don't see why they should need to be removed.

@MattЭллен ?

You mean flagged?

Why?

Matt Эллен

oh

right

past tense

time travel makes tenses more difficult

@Cerberus it was a message to Reg and Aedia, possibly because you couldn't get into chat or something. It had absolutely nothing to do with the question and seemed long past its use by date

Cerberus

12:05

Oh, OK.

In that case, I don't mind.

Matt Эллен

:D

I didn't think you would

else I'd have kept schtum

Cerberus

But in this case, I really don't see why the thread about -oid had to be removed: it seemed interesting. So I want everybody to know that I disagree. That was all.

Schtum?

Stumm?

Matt Эллен

yeah

@Cerberus I've not had to spell it before

I'm guessing

user19161

I wrote three Jimericks today, amazing.

Cerberus

I had no idea this word was used in English!

Hi.

Matt Эллен

12:07

Hi.

Cerberus

I have to run.

Later peeps!

Matt Эллен

CU!

KitFox

@Cerberus If it interests you to discuss it at length, then you should post a question about it.

Cerberus

I know it will lead to nothing. I just want my opinion to be known, I don't want people to say there is consensus about this.

Now I have to run, bye!

user19161

@matt If I write Jimericks then you must write Mimericks!

Matt Эллен

12:10

perhaps. I prefer Limericks, though :D

Robusto

@DavidWallace Interesting. He hadn't answered any last time I checked. Things change.

user19161

@Robusto Thanks for the news.

Robusto

I'll handle the deadpan snarking around here, Jasper, thank you very much.

Matt Эллен

handler? I barely know her!

user19161

@Robusto I was actually thinking whether it would come across as sarcastic. So I have to tell you, it was not meant to be sarcastic. I really did not know and was glad to know.

user19161

12:13

Now I need to check out what he answered...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JasperLoy wow, meta-sarcasm!

Matt Эллен

meta? she doesn't even understand puns

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I'm trying to decide if that one's funny or not :)

Robusto

Meta? I've never even seen her!

Matt Эллен

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 that's not a good sign ;)

KitFox

12:17

Ed's ruined Meta for me. puts hand to forehand dramatically

Matt Эллен

such a loss, the like we won't see again in our life time!

KitFox

Hi @Robusto!

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus OED says it's spelt shtoom in English. (or schtoom, shtum(m))

Robusto

12:34

@KitFox Hi.

Huh? Someone gave my answer to Yoichi's question a down vote.

KitFox

Which?

user19161

Let me divine the mystery behind the downvote.

Robusto

4

Q: What are meant by “August pick, October pick, and January pick” in the Presidential running mate selection?

There were words, ‘August pick, October pick, and January pick” in the article titled “Biden’s Brief - Obama picked his running-mate to help him govern,” appearing in New Yorker magazine October 20 issue. The article deals with the character and political records of Joe Biden who made a name in ...

words

KitFox

I got a random downvote yesterday. It perked me up mightily.

Robusto

All the answers got a single down vote each. Wow. No explanation, just a random drive-by.

user19161

12:37

Now it might be intended as an upvote on a small mobile screen.

user19161

Such mistakes do happen.

Robusto

Well, perhaps JA did it himself. He inveighed against the question itself in a comment.

KitFox

@Robusto I was thinking that very thing.

Matt Эллен

aye

KitFox

1

Q: Muppet in American English

I see an event is being organised in Washington, DC, called the Million Muppet March. In British English (at least) a muppet has no very positive a connotation:- muppet (ˈmʌpɪt) — n slang a stupid person Is that also the case in American slang?

american-english slang

I didn't want to rep whore. Someone ought to cherry-pick this though.

Robusto

12:43

I like that people told him to butt the fuck out.

Matt Эллен

I wonder how JA will react if ELL gets into beta

Noah

@Robusto butt the...

user19161

JA+JS=Jas. QED.

Matt Эллен

maybe in set theory

JA+JS = JAJS

Noah

@JasperLoy Nope. JAJS

Matt Эллен

12:45

JAJinx

user19161

As you can see from the equation, the two of them report to me daily.

Noah

How did Apple get away with this?

Matt Эллен

do you mean "get away with"?

Noah

@MattЭллен Yes. Spelling...

Matt Эллен

@Noah get away with what?

Noah

12:48

@MattЭллен Dont you see the picture I just posted

siliconbeat.com/2012/10/12/…

Matt Эллен

@Noah it's a clock, I don't know how it relates to apple

Noah

Well, the clock on iOS devices resembles the design of this clock.

And the company who owns this, sued apple over the design of this clock

@MattЭллен also posted a link to a story that covers this, not sure if you have opened it

Matt Эллен

I see. I've read it now :) how naughty of Apple. But they'll get away as much as people let them

Noah

@MattЭллен Yes, they will. I think they are pretty smart when it comes covering their own ass.

Matt Эллен

indeed, the messed up this time, it seems

Noah

12:58

At the same time, I dont understand why other companies cannot innovate. They follow in apples footsteps all the time.

Robusto

Apple has been stealing since Day One. And getting away with it. They shouldn't be allowed to prevent others from similar practices.

Noah

@Robusto Did you see the new Galaxy S III? It's so fucked up. It looks like a rectangle being squeezed from the sides

Robusto

Nah, I didn't.

But ask Xerox PARC where Apple got the idea for the mouse and the GUI desktop.

Anyway, gotta motor. I'll leave the Apple bashing to y'all.

Noah

@Robusto Yes, I know. Read Steve's Bio, he shamefully admits that the orignal idea came from Xerox PARC.

@MattЭллен Can I ask a question?

Matt Эллен

13:13

@Noah yes

Noah

This guy looks like being sick.

What's being here?

@MattЭллен

Matt Эллен

hmmm

I'm not sure I recognise the construction

Noah

@MattЭллен Mean it's wrong?

Matt Эллен

does it mean "This guy looks like he's being sick"?

or what does it mean?

@Noah not necessarily

Noah

@MattЭллен I guess so.

Google brings up a few million hits for the same expression.

Matt Эллен

13:19

It could mean "It looks like he's about to be sick"

Mitch

which 'same expression'? what sequence are you searching for? alo, check a few pages in, google voting is not always coherent.

"This guy looks like being sick." anyway is not grammatical.

Noah

@Mitch Is it idiomatic?

Mitch

No. it just sounds wrong.

I can't imagine a context where that utterance would work. it's just bad grammar.

user19161

@Noah This guy looks sick is the correct sentence.

Noah

@Mitch And what if I say: I dont like being sick

@JasperLoy That's one.

Mitch

13:24

@Noah that's fine.

user19161

@Mitch Save for the apostrophe.

Mitch

'being sick' can work but everything depends '

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Noah Apple settled with that company and paid them some money. So, they didn't get away with it.

Matt Эллен

Stack Exchange English Language & Usage Blog: Prescriptivism and Descriptivism

Cameron on October 15, 2012

Imagine you are reading something on the Internet (I know, it’s a stretch), and you come across the following passage:

How would you characterize the quality of the writing?

It is just fine

It has some style issues

It has some grammar issues

It is horrid writing for a number of reasons, including both style and grammar

Of course, the correct answer is… well, hold on, now. It’s not quite that simple.

If you cringed while reading the example passage above and ached to break out the red pen, then chances are that you fall into the prescriptivist camp. The general take of a prescriptivist is …

NEU BLAAG PORST

Mitch

Whee!!

what if it is wrong?

Matt Эллен

13:26

then we'll have to cover it with a cloth and hope noöne remembers

Mitch

Oh your two sentences are very different because 'like' has two very different uses.

Noah

@Mitch And: The box looks like being pushed?

Mitch

'I dont like being sick' 'like is a transitive verb

Noah

@Mitch omm.

user19161

@MattЭллен WOW!

user19161

13:28

I just did some rep whoring on tex.

Mitch

'This guy looks like being sick.' 'like' is a ... well it aint's averb and what is expected is a NP or S: " he looks like he is sick' 'he looks like a toad'.

user19161

13

Q: What does 'texmf' stand for?

Just a (simple) short question: Why is the LaTeX root directory called texmf? Is there a meaning of the mf ending?

texmf

Mitch

@Noah yeah, that's wrong/bad usage/ungrammatical

The box looks like it is being pushed.

Noah

@Mitch right. But, it's a box being pushed, right?

@Mitch, It sounded exactly like a box being ripped apart by a pack of Arctic wolves. I immediately darted into the living room and came face to face with my first “men think about stuff differently” marital moment. With one quick look, my bridal eyes were

Mitch

Puttnig aside for the moment the subject matter of the passage....

"it's a box being pushed" is fine

" like a box being ripped..." is fine. Maybe 'like' is a preposition here?

also, what is going on in the living room involving yhings that sound like a pack of wolves tearing into boxes?

@KitFox done.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

13:41

@Mitch Yes, according to the OED, "like" is a preposition in that sentence.

tchrist

@KitFox Far be from me to make more work for you, or to expect to be treated with courtesy. It is clear that 98% of comments are unwanted and wrong according to the founders' statements that questions and answers must stand on their own. Rather than put you in the uncomfortable position of further overworking and undercommunicating, I shall be deleting some 95-98% of the comments, since they offend you so much. That way you’ve time to concentrate on others than me. Thank you for your courtesy.

@KitFox If you expect people to behave differently, then you need to tell them how to meet your expectations. It is unfair to make them guess by reading your tea leaves discarded in the trash. Make clear what you require, and I shall do whatsoever you command. Doing random things to people without condescending to even tell them why will enamour you to no one, and that is the most charitable way I can put it. You will also never get them to obey you if you refuse to issue these secret orders.

@Cerberus As you have noted, probably no more that 1% of the comments meet these new draconian expectations of commentary. I shall certainly be doing my part to clean up the site of all this litter, and I hope everyone else will, too. After all, we wouldn’t want Anybody to have to overwork to Do Their Job just because we were having a good time.

@Cerberus See now why I didn’t repost the message that she deleted, and why I said she?

Robusto

14:11

What, mods are deleting comments again?

tchrist

You have no idea.

It’s their job, you know.

Mitch

@tchrist you have enough rep to delete other people's comments?

tchrist

We just make more work for them. We should cut that out.

No, I am deleting my own of course. That will save our hardworking mods
from having to do it herself.

Matt Эллен

why's it upset you so much @tchrist?

tchrist

The rudeness.

simchona

14:13

@tchrist I'm sorry you're feeling this way, but could you consider calming down a bit?

tchrist

@simchona Yes.

@simchona I just wanted to be talked to about it. How can I know what I am not supposed to do if people just go deleting my content-carrying comments, which are in no fashion offensive, and saying nothing to me about it?

I really feel this is not right.

simchona

No, I see where you're coming from. But once you start being slightly condescending back then any conversation is already over.

I'll take a look at your comments later and see if I can figure out a link. Does that work?

tchrist

Thanks you, but please do not bother. I do not want anyone overruled. I would simply like to be duly informed of what these rules are about the germane-ness of comments.

@simchona Here is the link:

19

A: What animal is a “weefil”?

That's not an F, it's an S. You can tell because the bar doesn't cross the stem. Once you figure that out, it's pretty easy to deduce that weesil is an old spelling of weasel. Plus, the picture is obviously of something weasel-oid. Here's a pretty good overview of the history of the long S in pr...

simchona

It may have been that the deviation into "oid" was off topic, since there were a lot of comments.

tchrist

If we are going to start deleting comments in that way, we might as well not have comments at all, because the people on this site use comments for other things than seems to now be allowed. In fact, show me a posting with more than two comments, and I will show you a posting that needs its comments removed.

Yes, but this happens all the time.

Doesn’t it?

simchona

14:20

Remember Im just guessing here.

tchrist

I feel targeted, and I am not pleased by that. I promise I shall never ever comment on anything she says, since she will use superpowers against me.

simchona

But deleting strings of off topic comments is justified once comment strings get that long. There are flags that pop up when it happens, and it may just have happened that yours were there.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist off-topic comments are a problem, especially if the thread gets long, because they are annoying to the OP.

tchrist

I no longer recall how long that one was, but it certainly wasn’t long enough to get the autoflag about too many comments — unless this has been reset from what is set at on SO.

Matt Эллен

@tchrist - post explaining comments' purpose

simchona

14:22

There were 9 deleted. That's fairly long.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

was Martha involved in the discussion? if not then I'd say her answer is not the place for comments. If she was involved, then I'd say it's permissible to me.

tchrist

Yes, she was.

@MattЭллен Which is the position that comments don’t matter, and can be deleted by anybody, for any reason, and with no repercussions. Fine. I am exercising my right to delete my own comments.

Matt Эллен

hi @Jasper!

user19161

@MattЭллен Yo yo. I thought the blog was dead!

Matt Эллен

then we're necromancers

or mediums

tchrist

14:29

Are “thank you” comments still permitted?

simchona

I tend to remove them

user19161

@tchrist The way I see it is this. There is no need for them but a few here and there won't hurt. If someone wants them removed then fine. So it does not really matter.

user19161

So I guess a very diligent mod could remove them after a while to keep the site clean.

tchrist

Looks at virtually any posting’s comments. If there are more than 2, almost always there are many that "should" be deleted.

How do you educate users not to do that?

By deleting them and not talking to them about it, apparently.

user19161

Well, not many users litter this way right?

user19161

14:33

And when they do, it is not very often.

user19161

So it is not really a problem.

tchrist

Things like "Best question ever" and "That is so funny!" and "Where is the like button?" are surely all deletion fodder then, right?

Does removing those improve the site?

user19161

Moderation in all things, just go by the feel sometimes.

user19161

No need to try to be too hard and fast.

Matt Эллен

@tchrist yes. less noise to signal.

This (chat) is the human area of the site. The main site is a shining mechanical beast; a wonder to behold, surely, but also for ever in need of cleaning away the grubby paw prints that human nature leaves on it, so its collected knowledge can shine through.

3

user19161

14:39

@MattЭллен Well said bro, well said.

KitFox

What's all the ruckus?

user19161

I caught the habit of using bro from the other room.

KitFox

There was a long comment thread about the meaning of -oid, which didn't pertain directly to the answer nor to the question. I removed it. If folks are excited to have a conversation about "-oid," someone should ask it as a question so that everyone else can benefit from it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен It's like my android tablet. Using it perforce makes it dirty, so I have to clean it frequently.

KitFox

And @tchrist, if you feel there are comments that are not constructive and should be removed, you can flag them. You can flag one on a chain as well.

And I'm not targeting you. I delete lots of comments. You just don't notice when they aren't yours.

user19161

14:44

Yeah man, the mods are just being diligent, so just chill.

KitFox

Same as how we discipline in private, so everyone always thinks they are the only one to ever receive a warning about being rude.

tchrist

@KitFox When you are the one deleting others’ comments that are specifically disagreeing with you, there is not even an illusion of impartiality. You should let other mods handle those cases.

@KitFox It isn’t the rudeness issue. It is the off-topic issue.

KitFox

@tchrist You weren't disagreeing with me.

You were agreeing with me.

Mitch

@KitFox but really, of all comments that are deletable by rule, some arce ontent free or inflammatory (and definitely should be deleted), but some have actual content (possibly irrelevant) but at least enriching. why not just leave them? They enrich the site rather than detract (even if they might be distracting).

tchrist

I know. I am not talking about myself there.

KitFox

14:48

@tchrist Well, then I shall assume your statement doesn't apply to me.

tchrist

I do not think you should yourself delete comments disagreeing with you.

KitFox

@Mitch Sometimes we do, sometimes we don't.

tchrist

No, they weren’t mine.

KitFox

@tchrist I don't.

tchrist

You edited down my substantiated claim to an unsubstantiated one.

I thought we were supposed to back up what we claimed with references.

Why did you delete my references?

KitFox

14:49

It is a comment. It doesn't need substantiation.

tchrist

Oh, new rule. Fine.

KitFox

And in your case, it was two comments.

tchrist

disbelieves

KitFox

It's not a new rule.

If you want to provide a nice long answer to a question, go for it.

tchrist

Just give me your orders, and I will obey.

But don’t make me guess.

That isn’t fair.

Mitch

14:50

I think we all need to stop for a moment and have some chocolate.

Zairja

11

Q: crisscross, dillydally, riffraff, etc

Some English words only differ in their vowels: crisscross, dillydally, riffraff, etc. Is there a name for them?

single-word-requests

user19161

Also, perhaps the need for chocolate might be an illusion.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch It's too early for chocolate. Burgers, and beer!

Zairja

I can't believe that nowhere on that page is kitty-cat!

user19161

@Zairja That's because it is a Kit Kat.

Mitch

14:51

@Zairja how dare you. kitty kats are not riff raff.

Zairja

Well, never mind. I can see how it doesn't fit the form, but it's close. Morning brain. . .

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 hm...how about...bacon cheeseburger, beer, and just for extras, a chocolate milk shake?

without the beer.

KitFox

@tchrist Well, have you read the guidelines for leaving comments?

Mitch

this is just for elevenses right?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch Tempting. Okay, I'll allow it, but I'm skipping the shake because it adds too many calories.

Mitch

14:53

whatever time it is for any of us.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 "I'll have two big macs, a supersize fries, what the hell an apple crisp... and oh a large diet coke "

tchrist

@KitFox Yes, I have. I have also applied that metric to my comments, and have deleted something like 500 in the last twelve hours. I have also looked at your historical comments with that same metric, and found that although you have a great many that fail to meet that standard, your keeper rate is higher than mine.

But you should still throw a lot of them away.

Mitch

@tchrist whoa dude... chocolate...think chocolate. and fewer ellipses...oh that's for me.

user19161

@Mitch Ellipses became a habit for me after SE chat.

Mitch

@Zairja of course it fits the form. they just forgot about cats. I know! right?

tchrist

@DavidWallace because if someone else had posted it, it'd be half as long? :) — Mr. Shiny and New 安宇 48 secs ago

KitFox

14:56

@tchrist OK. You flag them, I'll delete them if I agree with you. Or if you want, we can have one of the other mods decide.

tchrist

Look at that: gratuitous humor.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

See, I knew you were going to do that

Mitch

@JasperLoy and bro... and 9000... and seven... and...

tchrist

I knew you knew.

KitFox

looks for flags

tchrist

14:57

Don’t make me start.

Mitch

@KitFox Normally I would have flagged that but it draws other mods like honey.

KitFox

@Mitch You would have flagged me for looking for flags?

MετάEd

Aug 14 at 14:09, by RegDwight АΑA

A Group is Its Own Worst Enemy. By Clay Shirky.

Mitch

@KitFox would have only for humor's value (but I hink only I would have laughed).

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I actually considered not posting it, on account of it's an oldish answer and it has lots of comments and you'd get pinged even though I only need David to get pinged. But I don't personally hold to the strict interpretation of the comments "rules". And since you, @tchrist, seem to also prefer more arbitrary comments, I figured you wouldn't mind.

KitFox

14:59

@Mitch Oh, right. That would have been funny. You should do it five hours from now instead.

MετάEd

"1.) Of the things you have to accept, the first is that you cannot completely separate technical and social issues. There are two attractive patterns. One says, we'll handle technology over `here, we'll do social issues there. We'll have separate mailing lists with separate discussion groups, or we'll have one track here and one track there. This doesn't work."

cornbread ninja

@JasperLoy you mean it doesn't stand for 'TeX, motherfucker!'

tchrist

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I think it is a stupid “rule” that is not applied equally. It would be a terrific waste of time if people actually did that. Therefore, it seems capricious and arbitrary. See @Rob.

Matt Эллен

@MετάEd it was working fine until you pointed it out!

user19161

@cornbreadninja HAHAHA.

cornbread ninja

15:00

@JasperLoy :D

Mitch

@KitFox that would be insidious. or invidious. maybe both. and funny only in a dark and spiteful way. considers

expects to forget

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist Well, "not applied equally" is because the mods don't, and can't, review every single comment. I don't thing that is particularly a problem.

tchrist

I am attending to the problem.

MετάEd

@tchrist and @KitFox and anybody else participating in this discussion of what comments are for: please read the article RegDwight linked to, if you haven't already. It is a great discussion of how online communities actually work.

I seriously mean stop whatever you are doing and read it.

user19161

Now EVERYONE has to read it.

MετάEd

15:02

@JasperLoy Yes. It is assigned reading. I have modlike powers.

user19161

@MετάEd After all, you have a naked parrot!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MετάEd it's long. is there a summary?

MετάEd

@JasperLoy Its name is "Fnord". You do not see the parrot. For that matter, you do not see the parrot's nakedness.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Not really. I'd hate to screw it up by trying to summarize it myself.

This is one of those tl;ra type articles.

Matt Эллен

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 > Good morning, everybody. ... Thank you very much.

user19161

@MattЭллен The summary is called "executive summary" only for eyes of "executives".

Matt Эллен

15:08

people who execute

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So @MετάEd having read part of that article, it says "groups can be harmful to themselves" which may be what is actually happening here. Should I keep reading to find suggestions on how to resolve it? Do you have any suggestions?

tchrist

> "Oh, on the Internet we're all going to be changing identities and genders like we change our socks."

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist some people don't change their socks often enough.

tchrist

I have no socks. I feel like I’m missing out.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Do we have, or need, a meta post on comment policy for ELU?

MετάEd

15:17

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I suggest reading the entire article. When it comes to human nature, the devil is in the details. And there are a lot of great relevant details in that article.

user19161

This business is getting serious...

MετάEd

Then, take it or leave it.

user19161

We seem to be discussing comments like a nuclear bomb.

MετάEd

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Not sure.

Matt Эллен

@JasperLoy cut the red wire!

MετάEd

15:19

@JasperLoy We're not discussing comments, actually. We are discussing a situation where some toes were stepped on in the process of managing comments. So it's a lot more important than comments: it's people.

user19161

@MattЭллен Hmm, I can't remember which is the correct one from the movies.

MετάEd

Don't cut the red wire.

user19161

@MετάEd Rather, toes or maybe toenails.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Because I mostly agree with tchrist in that comments should be pretty unconstrained. However, I also agree with the mod flag policy for auto-flagging comment threads that get long, because that can be annoying. But on the other hand, the site has features for auto-hiding comment threads so perhaps Matt's shining mechanical beast is shiny enough.

Furthermore, conversation develops where it does using the medium available. And the comment thread is often used for that. Yes, people should take it to chat. But does that essentially mean that comments are essentially a deprecated feature on the site? or what.

One point that shirky's article makes is that people really want to have conversations. And it's undeniable that conversations are happening in the comment threads.

tchrist

Exactly.

MετάEd

15:26

Well the good news on conversations may be that we already have a good integrated chat system.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MετάEd Yes, that's the "comments are deprecated" notion I mentioned.

user19161

@MετάEd I am wondering if our idle chatter takes up much server space.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Maybe instead of deleting long comment chains they should be moved to chat rooms.

MετάEd

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, conversation in comments is deprecated.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

But functionally moving comments to a chat room is inconvenient. And re: site shininess, the site hides long threads anyway. So why do we have this deprecation? because JA squeezed out this ~~preference~~ idea? Or because it is the better thing to do?

Shirky's article is really about building sites like this one. We're not the builders, we're stuck with the rules and policies and tools that others make. It isn't our fault if they want to restrict human behaviour in ways that isn't really practical.

MετάEd

15:32

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 The Shirky article is especially helpful, I think, for people having super powers to understand why things aren't going the way they want them to.

But it's also helpful for people with fewer or no super powers to understand what they are a part of and why it feels uncomfortable sometimes.

Matt Эллен

chat most definitely is better than comments for conversation.

comments aren't designed for chatting

Robusto

This is really just jack-in-office unpleasantness. How To Turn A Convivial Web Site Into A Bureaucratic PITA. Also available on Audiobooks.

2

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен Better in some ways. Not better in other ways. Like, if the conversation takes place over many days from people who are not on the site as often as, say, the mods or the core users.

comments are like email, chat is like IM

Matt Эллен

ok, but it is trivial to link chat posts together

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

sometimes conversations happen in one, sometimes in another.

@MattЭллен But not easy to turn a one-off comment into a whole chatroom.

And conversations develop.

Matt Эллен

15:35

it is impractical to have threads of discussion in comments

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

And lots of people don't go into chat but read comments.

Matt Эллен

but the fix isn't letting them chat in comments

keeps polishing his beast

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен You say "fix" but that presupposes "problem".

Matt Эллен

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 yes. chatting in comments is a problem. it is noisy and gets in the way of the answers

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен But the site auto-hides comments.

Matt Эллен

15:38

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 that's hardly a solution. then you look at the comments and go "wtf?" and have to expand them to find out what's being talked about to find that most of the stuff is chaff

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

And often the comments clarify an answer. And if you're going to say "Well, we should edit the answer", then I say "but people don't do that, and hoping they will seems futile"

@MattЭллен But if the comments are all moved to chat, nobody will read them.

Most of the site users never ever visit chat.

Matt Эллен

if the chatty comments are moved to chat then that doesn't matter

I'm not saying all comments, I'm saying comments that don't add to the thread

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Can any diamond-weilders enlighten us mortals about what mod options are available re: comments that shouldn't be where they are?

cornbread ninja

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 one can only Hope. :P

simchona

You can delete them or purge them (delete all). I think there's also moving to chat but I've never done it

Actually I can only see the first two right now.

Can also edit them

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:44

I've seen a "move this conversation to chat" button appear at various times in the past. This isn't a mod action, but a user action? I don't recall seeing that feature lately, is it still around?

simchona

I haven't seen it come up in a while either, but I haven't purged comments recently either

cornbread ninja

It comes up if the commenting is fast and furious.

Matt Эллен

like when Vin Diesel rolls a natural 20 scoring for his charisma

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@cornbreadninja ah, that must be it. Well, that should be a mod action then. I think we could probably all agree that conversation is key to the fun of this site, and we could maybe agree that some conversations should not be in comments, but we can surely agree that they will develop there whether TPTB like it or not: thus, if those conversations were moved to chat, nobody could rightly complain.

Matt Эллен

aye

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:50

so how do mods go about getting a new mod feature added?

cornbread ninja

seconded

carrier pigeon to jeff <str>atwood</str> whatshisname

Matt Эллен

nay, he's not mployed at SE anymore

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

furthermore, comment chat rooms are typically dedicated rooms so there won't be any other chatter in there to clutter it.

cornbread ninja

it's a great protocol

Zairja

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I edit my answers to include clarifications most of the time and don't mind editing the answers of others to include same. I'm not sure if that puts me in the minority. I thought most people did this?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:53

@Zairja I'm not saying nobody does this or it never happens. But I can't count the number of times I've read an answer that has an important clarification only in the comments. If the comment thread is short, it's not hidden, and it then looks weird to have the answer edited to contradict the conversation on record.

So I suppose in that case the "Correct (tm)" thing to do would be to edit the answer and then flag the comments for deletion. But that clearly doesn't happen all the time.

2

And we can't count on it happening at all.

People expect that the information they post is posted. And more permanent than ephemeral.

Again, despite the ideals of TPTB.

Maybe instead of comments, we should have a chat room for each answer/message? Just embed it in the page. Display the first five chat messages or the five most-starred messages. What would the difference be if we did that? would people look at comments differently?

Matt Эллен

that would encourage chat. I don't see that as a good way of increasing the signal to noise in the comments

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен how about if the chat room were hidden all the time? Maybe that would encourage editing of the answers to include clarifications.

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