English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Mitch

6:00 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I think she has already. In fact I can almost read off of her mind that she has.

KitFox

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I can just kick him if he bugs me too much.

Mitch

@MετάEd well, that's certainly a question we can discuss at length here. I was surprised that it actually had such a long history (back to early 90's)

KitFox

looks meaningfully @Mr.Shiny

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox whistles innocently, glances around

Mitch

OK happy feeling gone

KitFox

6:01 PM

@Mitch Only early 90s? What did Reagan call it then?

Matt Эллен

bitch slapping

MετάEd

Careful, or Kit will be very stern.

Reaganomics?

I'm into the Ws!

woohoo!

6:03 PM

@KitFox Supply-side economics was the expression you might be thinking of. "Reaganomics" was the epithet from the other side.

KitFox

@MετάEd I remember feeling very surprised when the Rs this time around started slinging around the term "trickle-down."

Since every fiber of my being has been trained to react very poorly to that phrase.

MετάEd

@KitFox "Trickle-down economics" is another disapproving term for it.

KitFox

@MετάEd Exactly why I can't figure out why they are describing their own platform thus. And with pride.

MετάEd

The term I asked about, "trickle-down government", plainly has a disapproving tone also, but it doesn't seem to refer to supply-side economics or Reaganomics.

@KitFox Are they? I wasn't aware that they are.

KitFox

Yeah. It's weird.

Anyway, I was on the Ws...

MετάEd

6:05 PM

Reference?

KitFox

I was not discussing politics in chat rooms.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Did y'all hear about the new liquor that's poured over naked models' breasts before bottling?

KitFox

That's gotta be a roll.

And yet, I must click.

JSBձոգչ

that probably tastes terrible

KitFox

No love.

Or rather, no joy.

I guess too many people are excited about that.

Carlo_R.

6:09 PM

@sim 80 because today is my birthday.

KitFox

Happy birthday @Carlo.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

G-Spirits company website (NSFW): gspirits.com

Carlo_R.

@KitFox thx

KitFox

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Thing is, I pour my liquor over naked models' breasts before drinking it anyway, so I don't really want to pay extra for that feature.

4

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox your own breasts don't count

KitFox

6:12 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 No, they don't.

Carlo_R.

@sim after a month, what do you think of your new rule of moderator. I noticed you have done some step toward.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Hear about it? I was -there-.

Hold on that doesn't sound right.

Hear about it? I invented it.

no not right either.

Carlo_R.

-

Matt Эллен

Hear about it? No. I don't know what's going on.

Mitch

Hear about it? You shoulda heard her when she found out!

cornbread ninja

6:15 PM

@KitFox !!!

Mitch

@MattЭллен the new liquor gimmick.

KitFox

@cornbreadninja Are you on Mars? That was a hell of a delay.

Hey, how do you feel about liquor?

cornbread ninja

I went for tacos on Neptune.

liquor? I hardly know her.

KitFox

I had taco salad today.

I didn't lick anybody yet though.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

wow you're like lunch twins

Carlo_R.

6:16 PM

Hello @corn have you had your vacation?

cornbread ninja

@Carlo_R. no, is it my turn?

Carlo_R.

Ah.

cornbread ninja

@KitFox get crackin', missy!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@cornbreadninja Having just come from there, I recommend Vienna.

Carlo_R.

I want say that in the last days I do not have seen you here

cornbread ninja

6:18 PM

@Carlo_R. I've been terribly busy at work.

Carlo_R.

@corn I'm happy for you. Working is important in the life.

I'm happy for you.

cornbread ninja

thank you, @Carlo

Carlo_R.

Working is important in the life.

cornbread ninja

How are you? How is everyone?

David Wallace

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 If you were such a model, how would you describe your job to your friends? Oh, yes, I get paid to have beer poured over my breasts for eight hours per day.

simchona

6:22 PM

@DavidWallace Doesn't sound like a bad gig.

David Wallace

And how would you feel at the end of the day?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DavidWallace No, they make it in small batches, because 2500L (the total production run) is too much to do all at once.

David Wallace

@simchona I couldn't do it.

I mean, apart from being ineligible for the position, it would drive me nuts.

Carlo_R.

@David Hello, are you searching for a work?

David Wallace

@Carlo_R. Actually, yes I am, but I shan't be applying for a position in this brewery.

KitFox

6:23 PM

@DavidWallace "I am a liquor-additive technician."

RegDwighт

►

Carlo_R.

You could ask to Reg.

David Wallace

Oh, sorry, it WAS spirits wasn't it. I was thinking beer for some reason.

You'd be all sticky and yucky after eight hours of it.

Carlo_R.

Maybe he want a moderator for ELL

RegDwighт

Yeah, beer would spoil too fast. Liquor can handle all the model germs.

simchona

6:25 PM

@Carlo_R. That's not a job though.

KitFox

@DavidWallace From the looks of it, those girls are used to being sticky and yucky.

David Wallace

Is this likely to set a precedent for beverages that have been poured over other body parts?

Carlo_R.

@sim could we say "That's not a job, as well"?

simchona

@Carlo_R. No.

Carlo_R.

How does "as well" chenge the meaning of your sentence?

simchona

6:27 PM

@Carlo_R. Radically.

Carlo_R.

How? Could you care explain?

simchona

No.

Carlo_R.

Good.

You have not changed, as I thought

Mitch

@KitFox oh maybe before then (see Hugo's research in his answer: english.stackexchange.com/a/84758/4972

simchona

@Carlo_R. Don't particularly care.

Carlo_R.

6:29 PM

:(

My granchildren call me. Bbl

KitFox

@DavidWallace I would tend to think not.

Matt Эллен

I'll sell you water filtered through my arm pits. £10 per 500ml

Mitch

@MετάEd I fear to do the full web search, but 'trickle' down government is an obvious analogy to trickle-down economics but... but without making any sense. If you try to fill out the analogy it doesn't match anything in the real world or in possibility. So it sounds like it was either a mistake or an intentional appropriation of the term designed to confuse the crap out of people by speech makers.

@MattЭллен now, that's practical. will wash your armpits (disinfected by the alcohol really) while providing a service.

Matt Эллен

@Mitch there's not much alcohol in the water in my area...

Zairja

@Mitch What's your response to my answer to that question and my comments to Hugo's answer?

er, response/opinion

Mitch

6:37 PM

@MattЭллен I thought one would have to show up at the distillery to do the arm-pit trickled beer/liquor job. Downstream is a bit late.

Matt Эллен

@Mitch I'm not selling liquor! I'd need a license.

Mitch

@Zairja it's going to take a dissertation to parse out all those responses and questions.

Zairja

lol

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Wait: are we talking about trickle-down boob liquor? or something else trickling down

Mitch

@MattЭллен for your underarm filtering job, or to hire people to filter your liquor through their underarms, or to sell liquor at a roadside kiosk outside of the distillery where the models work, 'distilling' the liquor?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I thought it was the boob thing, but I'm willing to be reinterpreted in retrospect.

er on second thought...what are the other options for trickling?

David Wallace

6:40 PM

@Mitch He specified his own armpits. He might get more takers if he hired Alexa Varga.

Zairja

@Mitch Well, listening to the debates right now, Romney gives "[Obama believes] a bigger gov't, spending more, taxing more, regulating more, if you will "trickle-down gov't" would work. . . that's not the right answer". I think it's clear what the intent of the phrase is and that's what I give in my answer. As I mention in my last comment to MetaEd's question "like most political content, it's a catch-all buzzword to rally the base, not to present a coherent solution or theory."

@Mitch The meaning is clear (to me, at least), but whether it's a valid idea is a whole other topic.

Mitch

@Zairja ok now having read again...yes, what you say was my personal interpretation of the usage of trickle down government ("give money to the government and that money will presumably trickle down to the people" meant pejoratively)

Zairja

@Mitch Yay! I'm validated! :D

cornbread ninja

Wait. Carlo is 80?

Mitch

and that at first was incoherent to me.because government programs tend to do something with the money: salaries and expenses to construction companies for building roads, salary and expenses to the military (a -huge- welfare investment) medicare medicaid actually are payments tha go directly to people)

simchona

6:45 PM

@cornbreadninja "80"

Mitch

(I'm not endorsing any of these just comparing the two trickles)

cornbread ninja

@simchona I see.

Zairja

agreed

David Wallace

@Zairja +1 Excellent. That makes the meaning much clearer. Thanks.

Mitch

@simchona I doubt your doubt. I doubt it too but I'm not convinced either way

David Wallace

6:46 PM

I have always believed there were two people using the "Carlo" login. I am prepared to believe that one of them is 80.

Mitch

and the trickle down economics (by giving money to the rich)..well, yes they can buy more luxuries and bigger houses, but only so much more groceries.

cornbread ninja

the contrarian octogenarian

Mitch

@cornbreadninja ha ha I see what you did there.

@DavidWallace his English is getting rapidly better. And his 'affect' is too. His ability to understand nuance, or frankly directly stated things...not so much.

David Wallace

@Mitch I think it's more about enabling them to expand their businesses and employ more staff; who will then hopefully buy more groceries.

Mitch

@DavidWallace I think there is an intentional conflation of rich people and businesses.

allowing -businesses- more money/less taxes gives the -business- the ability to hire more people. Rich people don't hire that many people (this ain't Downton Abbey).

David Wallace

6:50 PM

@Mitch For a while, he was making posts in excellent English, and understanding the nuances of our fine language very nicely. Which made me believe he was not the "original Carlo". There was also one post in which he claimed that Italian has three genders (it has only two), and that the Italian noun "poeta" is feminine (which it isn't). This made me believe that the person posting it couldn't possibly be Italian.

Mitch

@DavidWallace but that was consistently ... clueless.

David Wallace

No, the better-English-Carlo also seemed to have quite a different personality.

Mitch

thinking/writing in a foreign language is a huge cognitive drain, so all mental work in trying to get the language form right takes away from cognitive resources for logical thought.

@DavidWallace it's been cleaned up considerably but there are always notes of the former self.

David Wallace

Oh, no, the Carlo that has been in this chat room every day for the past week or so is definitely the original one.

Mitch

agreed.

David Wallace

6:53 PM

But I'm certain that another person was logging in as Carlo a few months ago.

Mitch

do you think it is like former users who shared their account with family members?

David Wallace

It could be, yes. But I think it's more likely that the alternate-Carlo was not a relative. Like I said, I don't believe that alternate-Carlo is Italian.

And while alternate-Carlo was around, the rep score of the Carlo_R user increased dramatically.

Like unbelievably fast.

It was almost as if original-Carlo had paid a native English speaker to log in here, make erudite posts in excellent English, and thus increase the reputation of the username.

Mitch

he garnered all that rep by cutting and pasting from dictionaries with as little extra english as possible.

David Wallace

No, I disagree. His arguments seemed very well thought out to me. But every now and then, there'd be a post from original-Carlo.

There was also a phase where he was cutting and pasting from a dictionary. It didn't last too long.

Mitch

comments were all fractured and missed the point but -all- answers were dictionary references.

o. I don't remember that as a phase, I thought it had always been like that.

David Wallace

6:59 PM

@simchona Do you have an opinion about my alternate-Carlo theory?

simchona

@DavidWallace Not sure.

Mitch

She doubts his age. It -is- pretty fishy.

but kind of a weird act to decide to pull off.

David Wallace

He's been quite consistent with his age-related remarks. Like talking about what he and his wife were doing in 1963, for example.

Mitch

but weird right?

David Wallace

I am prepared to believe that he's 80, unless evidence to the contrary presents itself.

simchona

7:02 PM

I doubt he's 80.

David Wallace

What happened to this post?

-3

Q: An appropriate word to describe words that are common in natural gender

Generally speaking, the notion of "gender", more precisely of "grammatical gender", is used to classify nouns into groups. As an instance, in Italian language there are three categories labeled "masculine", "feminine" and "neuter". As far as I know this classification has little to do with male a...

I'm sure he claimed that "poeta" was feminine in the body of this post. But I can't see that it's been edited out.

There was also a comment there where he claimed to be a poorly-educated engineer, or something like that. That has gone too.

MετάEd

@tchrist You are confusing grammatical gender and natural gender. For example "poeta", a feminine noun which regularly referred to male poets. — Carlo_R. Jul 23 at 21:27

It's in the comments.

David Wallace

Oh, yes, thank you.

So, as any Italian schoolchild would know that one says "Il poeta", not "La poeta", the person who made that comment could not possibly be Italian.

Unless of course, there's some dialect in some little corner of Italy, where the genders of some nouns are different. But that seems rather unlikely to me.

Mitch

@DavidWallace I wouldn't be surprised if that is a very common 'error' in native speakers of standard Italian.

David Wallace

Really? OK, I'm prepared to accept that I'm wrong. But this is just one of the many clues that led me to my two-Carlo theory.

In my wife's native language, there are a few nouns like this one, that are masculine, but have feminine endings. I can't imagine her ever using a feminine adjective, pronoun or verb with such a noun. I kind of assumed that for people who are native in gendered languages; agreement of articles, pronouns and adjectives is more instinctive than anything else, and would seldom be the source of errors.

Of course, it's possible that Carlo simply mistyped what he wanted to say. He may have intended to write ... "poeta", a masculine noun which regularly referred to female poets.

but if that's the case, it's odd that he would pick a noun that ends in -a.

cornbread ninja

7:17 PM

unrelated: typographyserved.com/gallery/paper-typography/858836

Matt Эллен

oooo! pretty!

simchona

I want to learn quilling

Matt Эллен

I want to buy food.

toodles!

Zairja

TIL: there's a thing called quilling

David Wallace

@Zairja Yes, I was just about to thank @simchona for teaching me a new word too.

When I first read the comment, I thought she might have meant quilting.

Carlo_R.

7:26 PM

Hello @David, are there nuclear plant in NZ? Or does NZ import energy by Australia?

simchona

@Carlo_R. They ship over a ton of batteries every day.

David Wallace

@Carlo_R. No, and no.

MετάEd

@DavidWallace You are dealing with a person who speaks English as a second language. I took it to mean that "poeta" has feminine form (-a ending) even when used (with "il") to refer to a man.

Carlo_R.

What are batterieis? Are they like virus?

simchona

@Carlo_R. Yes. A horrible blight.

Carlo_R.

7:28 PM

@Mete "poeta" is masculine even if it ends with "a"

MετάEd

@DavidWallace I don't know enough Italian to know if that's in fact what they do.

Carlo_R.

Grammatical italian gender is not related with sexual gender

We can say "il poeta" o "la poeta"

David Wallace

Really? Not "la poetessa"?

MετάEd

@Carlo_R. What did you mean in July when you wrote this comment about "poeta"?

22 mins ago, by MετάEd

@tchrist You are confusing grammatical gender and natural gender. For example "poeta", a feminine noun which regularly referred to male poets. — Carlo_R. Jul 23 at 21:27

Carlo_R.

@david no, poetessa is rare

Meta, I was confuse

That day I have some problem

@David "poetessa" could have a negative connotation, too

For example: in English "Sim is a poet" - in Italian "Sim e' una poeta"

In English "Reg is a poet", in Italian "Reg e' un poeta"

cornbread ninja

7:35 PM

@MattЭллен :D

quillography

Carlo_R.

@David we avoid to use de suffix -essa. For example we cannot say "La minisressa" or l' "avvocatessa".

Sorry "ministressa"

David Wallace

@Carlo_R. OK, thanks, I didn't know that. I thought it was always "il poeta".

Carlo_R.

But in some cases "-essa" is normally used : "professoressa" "dottoressa"

TRiG

@DavidWallace You could pour it over them, so.

(Sorry.)

David Wallace

@TRiG but who would buy it if I did?

TRiG

7:38 PM

@DavidWallace I'm sure there's a market. There is for most things.

David Wallace

@Carlo_R. I clearly need to buy better textbooks. I thought "la poeta" was only used for the villa in Capri.

MετάEd

@DavidWallace This makes sense to me with what little I've seen of Romance languages. A word for a person seem to need the same gender as the person. It's not like German where "Mädchen" (maiden) is neuter despite the person being feminine.

Carlo_R.

"la poeta" is used, but, for example, "la ministra" no

MετάEd

But when you're not talking about a person, the gender is more or less arbitrary, also like German, and because Romance languages don't have a neuter gender, the thing will be masculine or feminine.

@Carlo_R. So a woman is still "el ministro"?

Ack.

Sorry, "Il"

Carlo_R.

Meta, yes a woman is "il ministro"

David Wallace

7:42 PM

@MετάEd Oh, absolutely. I studied German for two years, as well as other languages with this phenomenon. So I'm familiar with this phenomenon. That is why it surprised me when I read Carlo's comment, claiming that "poeta" was a feminine noun.

Carlo_R.

Is "il sindaco" is "l'avvocato" is "il medico" ...

MετάEd

Interesting: the office is always masculine. Well, many languages including English also have this sexual inequality.

David Wallace

@Carlo_R. Yes, but "l'avvocato" is because of a different rule, right?

Carlo_R.

@david no, it is "lo avvocato" that bacame "l'avvocato"

RegDwighт

@MετάEd La oficina.

Carlo_R.

7:45 PM

Calling a woman "oficina" could have negative sense

Italian language is strongly caracterizated by masculine gendre

Nowadays some reflex of feminine movement is changing something

But without any significative result

David Wallace

@Carlo_R. Yes, that's what I meant.

Carlo_R.

In Italian culture the woman has a place and the man another.

Men have great respect for women and women love men

Women is everithing for Italian men

Italians never permit that a women could do some type of work

Italian women are happy for this

Except a minorance of leftoid women

5

David Wallace

Always except the unexcepted!

Carlo_R.

Can you repeat?

Zairja

@Carlo_R. leftoid?

David Wallace

7:53 PM

Always except the unexcepted!

Carlo_R.

"Leftoid" is a politicla orientation to left

David Wallace

Where the minorances live.

Carlo_R.

Probably if I say "communist" for you understand

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

"Down by the bay! Where watermelon grow! I dare not go! My mother say! Did you ever see a dragon, pulling a wagon, out of my garage!" -- my son, last night at dinner, (over and over for about 20 mins)

Carlo_R.

Minorance live in Italy

David Wallace

7:56 PM

@Carlo_R. What sort of work would only communist women be happy to be allowed to do?

Carlo_R.

In Italy some minorance of women want to do the same work the men do

David Wallace

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 landofnurseryrhymes.co.uk/htm_pages/Down%20By%20the%20Bay.htm

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DavidWallace yeah, that's the one.

Around here, it has a tune. Except no so much when my son sings it.

Carlo_R.

And this is not compatible with their fragility

Only man can do heavly work, Italian said

tchrist

@Carlo_R. That is the most disgustingly offensive thing I have read in weeks.

Zairja

7:58 PM

@tchrist Indeed -_-

David Wallace

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I've never heard it.

Carlo_R.

@tchrist I agree with you, but I only report the Italian situation.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

►

Zairja

@Carlo_R. My roller derby team would like to have a word with these Italians! :b

Carlo_R.

:)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

8:00 PM

@DavidWallace This morning I tried singing it to him. He said "Don't sing that song! When you are smaller you can sing it."

2

@Carlo_R. Why not let the women decide for themselves if they are too fragile?

Carlo_R.

Yes Mr. I agree with you, I ever say that men and women are equal, but in Itali

MετάEd

I state for the record that I am leftoid. But without being communist.

Leftoids, unitle!

Carlo_R.

But in Italy the cattolic religion incide a lot

Cattolic religion want women at home and men at work

David Wallace

@Carlo_R. Was that a Papal decree, or is it biblical?

Zairja

Carlo_R.

8:03 PM

I'm agnostic, so I'm not influenced by this, but the major of Italians are

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Carlo_R. Just don't listen to the church then.

Zairja

Lectroids unite!

MετάEd

@DavidWallace The notion that women are property is very, very widespread. I cannot think of any of the Abrahamic religions that do not agree with it, to a greater or lesser degree.

Carlo_R.

@David there is no Papal decree, but only an interpretation of bible

David Wallace

@Carlo_R. Can you be specific? I know of no such notion in the bible.

@MετάEd Now THAT is bordering on offensive. Can you give an example of why you would think this is the case? Pick any of the Abrahamic religions.

Carlo_R.

8:06 PM

@David Yes you are right, the notion is not in the bible, but it is being created by the interpretation

In Italy the interpretation is called "vangelo"

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DavidWallace There are lots of examples in the Bible and the Koran where women are, if not outright property (like slaves), only non-property in a token way.

David Wallace

So if I understand catholicism correctly, its doctrines are the sum of what's in the Bible, what the Nicene council decreed, and what subsequent popes have spelt out. I am wondering which of the three specifies what sort of work women are allowed to do.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Can you give just one? From either the Bible or the Qur'an?

TRiG

@MετάEd Indeed, even if it's not specifically said (indeed, even if they specifically say the opposite), their actions reveal their thoughts.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DavidWallace There is a long list here skepticsannotatedbible.com/women/long.html

TRiG

It's been said that every time the Catholic Church starts talking about the special role of Mary, you know things are going to get worse for Catholic women.

David Wallace

8:09 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 And which of those 385 verses do you interpret as claiming that women are property? Pick one!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

#7

> "The male and his female ..." Notice that in the Bible female animals are the property of male animals, as women are the property of men. 7:2

Carlo_R.

For example, in Italy, alas, only the 4% of CEO are women.

MετάEd

@DavidWallace it starts with: "Thy husband shall rule over thee".

TRiG

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Also, Sarai gives Abram her maidservant, which is a bit squicky.

MετάEd

@DavidWallace A particularly egregious example is in one of my answers here. digs

David Wallace

8:11 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You're reading far too much into that. It's Gods instruction to Noah about what to take into the ark. It just means, make sure that you get a male and a female for each type of animal.

TRiG

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 #372, #373.

Carlo_R.

I'm afraid for that and I hope the thing can change.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DavidWallace Many of the misogynistic examples do not explicitly say "women are property of men". But taken together, they clearly are.

TRiG

@DavidWallace #362 amuses me.

> Every man should know how to possess his penis or his wife (depending on the translation) in a holy way.

1 Thessalonians 4:4

Carlo_R.

For example, my wife has always worked and that was very strange in 60s

In Italy

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

8:14 PM

@DavidWallace How about when Lot offers his daughters to an angry mob bent on raping two men who are visiting him?

> Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

Carlo_R.

@Mitch are you online

TRiG

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, it's a general theme running through the whole thing, rather than a specific statement.

Carlo_R.

@Mitch on my mobile screen I do not see who is online

MετάEd

6

A: Austin fragment: "sane and undivorced"

The sentence refers to all the impediments to marriage which Christians must avoid for the marriage to be legal and binding. It gives illustrative examples (already having a wife, having an ex-wife, and being of sound mind). There are two kinds of impediments to marriage. The examples in the sen...

@DavidWallace The example in that answer is of property rights in young virgins: "If a man comes upon a young woman, a virgin who is not betrothed, seizes her and lies with her, and they are discovered, the man who lay with her shall give the young woman’s father fifty silver shekels and she will be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her as long as he lives."

David Wallace

@TRiG I've never seen a translation that has "wife" in this verse. I've always taken it to mean "body".

TRiG

8:19 PM

@DavidWallace I'd be interested to know where SAB got that translation. I'm not sure how much I'd trust them, as a source.

David Wallace

@MετάEd Importantly, it doesn't say that she can't divorce him. This verse bestows a responsibility on the man, but none on the woman.

TRiG

21

A: What is the point of having a rapist marry the woman he raped?

And the other critical caveat here: this is only if she wants him to marry her. If she'd rather never see him again, then the Torah never forces her into such a marriage. Additionally, if she wants a divorce, she is still entitled to one whenever she wants even after they wed. (Shulchan Aruch Eve...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DavidWallace But if she divorces him, she cannot remarry.

David Wallace

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Where does it say that?

MετάEd

@DavidWallace She can't divorce him anyway, not according to Abrahamic law. In some cases the man can divorce the woman, but never the other way around ... the rule I cited just nullifies the man's privilege to divorce in the particular case. The woman, who has been paid for, has no choice to divorce. She is either the father's property, or the man's, but not her own.

TRiG

8:22 PM

@DavidWallace That question has not been asked.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DavidWallace I'm not sure where, but eg you can't remarry after divorce in the Catholic Church.

MετάEd

Lest we forget, it was still true until recently that a married woman could not perform many kinds of financial transactions without the signature of her husband. When I say "recently" I mean within my lifetime, in the US.

David Wallace

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I think that only applies if the first marriage was unconsensual. Like this one would be.

MετάEd

And the women's vote was only established as an inalienable right in the US less than a hundred years ago.

Matt Эллен

If caleb can offer his daughter as a prize, then she is property: Joshua 15:16-17

MετάEd

8:25 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That is essentially right: you are considered to still be married to her in the Church's eyes; the State's view of it doesn't matter.

David Wallace

@MετάEd and was any of the Abrahamic religions cited as the justification for that?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DavidWallace Not as far as I know. If the marriage was annulled, as it could be in the case of non-consent, then she was never married and can marry. But if she divorces, she was married and cannot remarry.

MετάEd

@DavidWallace Certainly there was a lot of opposition on religious grounds, if that is what you mean.

David Wallace

Hmm, seems odd to me.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

"Deuteronomy 25:5 If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her."

David Wallace

8:27 PM

@MattЭллен In this passage, I would interpret "give" as "allow". In other words, a father has the right to veto his daughter's plans to marry. Caleb is just saying he will allow his daughter to marry whoever.

Matt Эллен

lol

that not what it reads like to me, but whatever

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Jeremiah 6:11-12 Therefore I am full of the fury of the LORD; I am weary with holding in: I will pour it out upon the children abroad, and upon the assembly of young men together: for even the husband with the wife shall be taken, the aged with him that is full of days.
Their houses shall be turned unto others, with their fields and wives together: for I will stretch out my hand upon the inhabitants of the land, saith the LORD."

David Wallace

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Hmm, sounds to me like the brother becomes the property of the widow than the other way around.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So When the LORD is angry, he gives away a man's fields and wives to others.

@DavidWallace You're being way to charitable when reading that.

Actually in that case neither party has any choice.

David Wallace

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Deuteronomy goes on to say how the brother should be punished if he chooses not to marry the widow. Doesn't sound that bad to me.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

8:32 PM

Anyway, the point is, women don't get autonomy. They are routinely traded, sold (bride-price, anyone?), treated 2x worse than men for the same crimes, etc.

@DavidWallace You couldn't pay me enough money to "go into" my brother's wife.

Anyway, it is a theme throughout the entire old testament and much of the new testament.

Just about everything St. Paul wrote concerning women is misogynistic. They are to be silent. They must obey their husbands. They must never be teachers. blah blah blah.

David Wallace

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 but that's not the same as being property.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DavidWallace Did you miss the part where I mentioned being traded and sold?

They are prizes for the men. They are given away to strangers. They are offered to angry mobs.

tchrist

@MattЭллен an Caleb sai, “Whoever strikes Kiriath-sepher an captures it, to him will I giev Achsah my dorter as wife.”

David Wallace

And in all those occasions, I see this as being about permission, not compulsion. "You and my daughter have my permission to marry, should you both so wish", not "my daughter is transferred from my property to your property".

Call me overly charitable, but I'm not going to come at the Bible so determined to find something in it as offensive.

Matt Эллен

@tchrist kittywives hehehe

TRiG

8:39 PM

@DavidWallace Frankly, it would be shocking if the Bible weren't sexist.

MετάEd

@DavidWallace I think you are thinking it's a grant of rights to the wife. In reality, it's that the dead man's brother has the responsibility to give his heirless dead brother a child. The woman doesn't have a choice about it.

TRiG

It's a product of its time and place.

David Wallace

@TRiG I didn't say there weren't sexist bits. I'm unconvinced about the "women are property" meme.

@MετάEd I think you're reading too much into it.

MετάEd

@DavidWallace The rules in the Bible are nearly universally either obligations or prohibitions. There's very little in there of "permission".

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DavidWallace I'm not "determined" to find the bible offensive. I just read it, and was offended.

TRiG

8:41 PM

@DavidWallace I don't think the Bible teaches that women are property. I think it assumes it. It never occurs to the writers that anyone would question that. It colours the whole background.

6

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@TRiG yes, exactly.

TRiG

But hey, I should be reading Girl Genius.

David Wallace

@TRiG It seems to me that to some extent, you're critiquing the culture of the times at which various parts were written, rather than the words themselves.

TRiG

@DavidWallace Insofar as the words were influenced by that culture, yes.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DavidWallace You don't find it offensive when Paul commands women to be obedient to their husbands? THAT part is pretty plainly written.

David Wallace

8:45 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Hey, I always obey my wife!

and I would never ask her to do anything that she didn't want to do. So asking her to be obedient in no way implies that she's my property.

MετάEd

@DavidWallace The problem is that the culture of that time wrote down these rules, and that they were elevated to the status of sacred and out of the mouth of God. So today there is a large minority of people who will not even consider the possibility that these rules reflect the culture of the times. For such people, the rules we're talking about are God's wishes, and they'd like to impose them today.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DavidWallace Ha ha, that's very easy for you to say having grown up in a male-dominant society. But look at how many ways women are still subjugated today.

Carlo_R.

Is there a good man that can told me whther in this sentence is better to say "make always sense"?

This question may be terminated at any time since always make sense to remove all contamination at a site. — Carlo_R. 10 mins ago

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DavidWallace Come on. If she HAS to obey you, it doesn't matter if she has de facto autonomy because you LET her have autonomy. In principle she does not have autonomy. And not everyone is as nice about it as YOU.

David Wallace

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, it's easy for me to say. I firmly believe that a husband and a wife should both do what the other wants them to do. Nothing in that belief implies that one is the property of the other.

MετάEd

8:48 PM

@Carlo_R. "This question may be deleted at any time because it always makes sense to remove all contamination from a site."

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Carlo_R. It should read " ... since it always makes sense to...". "make always sense" doesn't work, though you could use "makes sense always", which doesn't sound as natural to me but isn't wrong.

Carlo_R.

Meta thx :)

David Wallace

@Carlo_R. You might even find a good woman who can do that!

MετάEd

@Carlo_R. However I don't know that I have ever thought of an off-topic post as "contamination". That word puts the post in the category of dirty or poisonous.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DavidWallace Well, that's nice, except that it's grounded in a sense of partnership and equality. The Bible doesn't grant that equality. It doesn't say "Women, obey your husband, unless he's a total douche or wants you to do something you don't want to do."

David Wallace

8:50 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Then I feel sorry for such husbands.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Moral: don't marry a total douche.

Carlo_R.

Yes David, this could be a good question for writer.se: is it better to say "a good man" or "a good woman"

David Wallace

@Carlo_R. I suspect it would get closed.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DavidWallace What if he raped you and was caught, then paid the 50 shekels to your father? Your father gets to give you away, and so having bought and paid for you, the douchbag gets to marry you. Oh, and then you are supposed to be obedient.

@Carlo_R. These days you should probably say "person", or "man or woman", unless there is no chance at all of the audience being mixed gender.

David Wallace

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 and as I believe I said earlier, I see this as implying that the woman has the option to marry the douchebag if she so wishes, not the compulsion to do so.

In particular, if she became pregnant as a result of the rape, she may find it preferable to be married to the douchebag, rather than raising a child alone.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DavidWallace And I see this as you being too charitable, and reading 21st century values into a thousands-of-years-old text. I strongly doubt that 2000 years ago, if a father told his daughter "you are marrying that man", she would have any choice in the matter. Hell, it even happens today, FFS.

Carlo_R.

8:53 PM

Thank you @Mr.Shiny. You suggestion is very helpful.

David Wallace

This particular verse gives her an option. I see it more as making the rapist beholden to the victim and her family, than the other way around.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DavidWallace yeah, nice, she might find it preferable to be with a rapist? Please.

@DavidWallace Dude: we're talking about a rapist. He raped her. Then, as long as he pays for her, he gets to keep her? And this doesn't sound fucked up to you?

MετάEd

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Patience. David Wallace's consciousness has been raised now; you can't expect his mind to change, certainly not immediately and maybe not ever. But you've sown the seeds.

David Wallace

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It sounds seriously in conflict with my own values, yes. But I read that verse as creating an obligation on the rapist, not an obligation on the victim. If she chooses not to cash in that obligation, then fine.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Don't forget that if the woman wasn't a virgin at the time of her marriage, and the groom discovers this, (barring, I expect, the scenario where he's her rapist), she can be killed and her family is then shamed. Note: no such obligation is on the man.

David Wallace

8:56 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 and none of this implies that the woman is the man's property.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DavidWallace Do you seriously expect that a woman would WANT to marry her rapist? No effing way. This verse protects the girl's family, who now have damaged goods on their hands, and so they are given an opportunity to offload their soiled, filthy daughter who let herself get raped.

@DavidWallace He effing PAYS FOR HER.

She is totally his property.

David Wallace

No, I still see it as deterring rape, not the opposite.

MετάEd

@DavidWallace Yes, it is deterring rape. But the reason is that a raped daughter is damaged goods.

David Wallace

If a man commits rape, he can be forced to spend the rest of his life married to someone that he clearly dislikes. Sounds like quite a punishment to me. Regardless of the 50 shekels.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

She was her father's property, where he is tasked with selling her off to some man. However no man wants a non-virgin, because that's icky, so the father can't sell his daughter if she's been a harlot. It doesn't actually matter if the man is a rapist or her boyfriend: when caught together her value for her father has instantly dropped to zero for all other suitors, so that dude has to pay up.

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