English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

tchrist

19:00

Yes: Tristan is some young British teenager who puts commas wherever, they don’t belong. I just edited about 30 of his postings to fix this. It was driving me to tristesse.

Easier than complaining about it.

In a sense.

Robusto

Bonjour tristesse (film)

Bonjour tristesse is a 1958 film directed and produced by Otto Preminger from a screenplay by Arthur Laurents based on the novel of the same title by Françoise Sagan. The film stars Deborah Kerr, David Niven, Jean Seberg, Mylène Demongeot and Geoffrey Horne, and features Juliette Gréco, Walter Chiari, Martita Hunt and Roland Culver. It was released by Columbia Pictures. This film had color and black and white sequences; which was unusual for the 1950s, but was widely used in silent movies and early talking films. Plot On the French Riviera, Cécile (Jean Seberg) is a decadent young girl ...

tchrist

Tristan would approve. He doesn’t like the word movie.

He is really funny. He thinks he doesn’t have an accent.

Robusto

I am not knowing this person.

tchrist

You’re a better man than I, Gunga Din.

Robusto

Jun 22 at 13:34, by Robusto

@RegDwightΒВB "I call that a scumhead." — James Joyce, Finnegans Wake

Since it's been said before.

tchrist

19:03

That gets to the point.

1

A: Fun and enjoyable ways to practice pronunciation?

There have been some good answers here, particularly that of AJweb. However, there is one other point, worth making about pronunciation. There is not one, particular way of pronouncing English. This is because of the big differences in the forms of English that are spoken around the world. They...

You're a nut case! — ErikE Apr 9 at 5:51

So does that.

Robusto

> Although there are plenty of regional, British accents they are generally not as different from each other as they are from non-British accents of the English-speaking world.

Still a little golf left, @tchrist.

tchrist

Yeah yeah.

Go look at his worst question. I’m editing, but just to fix the puncts.

Fixing the punk is beyond my talents.

> There are some requirements for choosing. Consider your, personal needs and who you will be communicating with, in English. Will it mostly or only be, Americans or other foreigners who speak American English? If so, learning American English will be more useful, for you.

> This is because American English is so very different. It is just one, particular form and, is foreign (it is not of Britain) and therefore, is not literally, English.

> If you want to communicate with British people or English speakers generally, British English is enough. It is generally understood in the world and is of a better quality.

Wow, that’s nearly offensive.

> This is because it is usually without any particular dialect, slang or accent, at all (unless it is spoken in a particular, regional dialect and accent of England).

Can you say bollocks? I know I can.

Robusto

@tchrist Well, I think his sentence makes sense, sort of, if you remove the final comma from it, the one you seem reluctant to remove because it may be the final hiding place, the final fig leaf ...

tchrist

I don’t know him from Adam.

Nor do I wish to.

> This is particularly important if you ever visit the UK because, if you try to speak American English there, most people will not understand a lot of your accent and American dialect because, it is not the English that British people speak.

> American English is so very different, because it is spoken and written, in its own, particular dialect (this means words, names, slang, phrases, expressions, grammar and spellings that are its own).

> It also, is always spoken in its own accents, which are very strong and distinctive. Most are harsh and whining. Even the milder American accents, are still very strong.

Maybe I should just flag it.

> If you learn American English, you will be instantly noticeable for having a harsh, whining accent. You would not only be learning a language but, you would also learn a very strong and foreign (non-English) accent.

> What foreigners need to know most of all, is what I just wrote, above.

> If communicating with other, non-British English speakers, you should generally, use their dialect as well. Although, their dialects are usually a lot less than American dialect.

> When communicating with English or other British people, it is not necessary to use any dialect or accent at all.

> You should instead, use the actual, English English words and grammar. These are spoken and understood by British people generally, even those who speak a particular, regional dialect and accent of England and, those who speak other, British forms of English. For example, Scottish and Cornish people.

Robusto

19:19

> I am listening. Well, I prefer, that, I must say I prefer that, oh you know, oh you, oh I suppose the audience, well well, so there is an audience, it’s a public show, you buy your seat and you wait, perhaps it’s free, a free show, you take your seat and you wait for it to begin, or perhaps it’s compulsory, a compulsory show...

> you wait for the compulsory show to begin, it takes time, you hear a voice, perhaps it is a recitation, that is the show, someone reciting, selected passages, old favourites, or someone improvising, you can barely hear him, that’s the show, you can’t leave, you are afraid to leave, you make the best of it, you try to be reasonable, you came too early, here we’d need latin, it’s only the beginning, it hasn’t begun, he’ll appear any moment, he’ll begin any moment

tchrist

Becket?

Or Tristan? :)

KitFox

@tchrist Flag them all, I will mow them down with gusto.

tchrist

Done.

KitFox

Oh I thought you meant comments.

tchrist

Normally I just edit his posting to fix the broken commas. But that one is beyond my ability to stomach.

Oh, no.

KitFox

19:22

That actually does rather roundabout address the question.

tchrist

Dang.

Sorry.

KitFox

So I can't justify deleting it.

tchrist

I didn’t think so.

KitFox

No worries. I marked it as helpful anyway, so no harm done.

tchrist

Plus he’ll get all those reps back. :)

Thanks.

I’m not going to try to edit that one.

What’s the lowest scoring answer on ELU?

Well, or question. So posting.

Mahnax

19:25

-144

A: Can we have the ability to rescind a close vote before it closes?

declining -- you can always cast a reopen vote if the post gets closed. Also note that all close votes automatically expire after two days. (and for that matter reopen votes, or any other vote that attempts to reach a threshold -- otherwise, over an absurdly long period of time, say 10 years, e...

That's the lowest one on MSO, I think.

tchrist

Hah.

Mahnax

He's also got an answer at -89.

tchrist

He is not always well-loved.

Mahnax

Oh, you might not even know about the incident here. Do you?

tchrist

Very vaguely.

Mahnax

19:26

Mm, OK.

tchrist

-1

A: What is the name of the moment when the detective solves the mystery or realizes who the murderer is?

In literary terms, this is called the denouement. from Dictionary.com de·noue·ment [dey-noo-mahn] noun the final resolution of the intricacies of a plot, as of a drama or novel. the place in the plot at which this occurs. the outcome or resolution of a doubtful series of oc...

No, Mr Cartaino.

At least, not my understanding of it.

@Mahnax I doubt we’ll ever get this one down to a score commensurate with its negative grossness:

-7

A: Differences between dialects

That's a good question, Marco. It raises a point that is not often addressed, when foreigners learn English. That is, that there is not one form of English. Many foreigners naively assume that there is. Until it comes time to put it into practice. Not everyone from an English-speaking land, s...

But we can certainly try. :)

Where negative grossness was JA’s score above.

Mahnax

-8

Q: "significant" vs. "important"

I have doubt regarding the meaning of "significant". What I think is: -If we have a number like 10 ,then the zero is significant ,because if we remove it then 10 will become 1 which is a very different number. so,10 will loose its meaning without the "0",so "0" is significant. -If you are a prog...

synonyms

That's a question though.

tchrist

I know how to sort questions on score.

I don’t know how to sort answers.

Mahnax

You might not be able to.

tchrist

SEDE might.

Mahnax

19:33

Peut-être.

Gotta run, bye.

Robusto

19:49

1

A: "The author wrote" vs. "the author writes"

Grammar Girl recently addressed this topic in "Present Tense in a Story." Her basic thesis was that the tense of the verb sets an expectation that may or may not adhere to the situation. If I say, "Her name was Susan," does that imply that it no longer is Susan? You might be setting someone up t...

-1 for quoting Grammar Girl in this venue.

tchrist

ya

RegDwighт

20:09

Someone has just edited this into an SO question.

Robusto

Have you ever wondered what Barry White would look like if he wasn't White?

Or if Jack Black was really black?

tchrist

@RegDwighт You are so jesting.

RegDwighт

Picture of actual snoop dog.

@tchrist ORLY?

Robusto

@RegDwighт All this reminds me of is why I hat lo-res JPG images.

RegDwighт

stackoverflow.com/review-beta/suggested-edits/727330

tchrist

20:15

boggles

Oh, they were supposed to be there before.

And were, if you paw at them enough. Just not in the posting.

RegDwighт

Yup.

Robusto

What's it called when you go to the doctor's?

What's it called when you visit the undertaker?

What's it called when you go to the Birkenstock store?

What's it called when you go to a play?

What's it called when you go to a sporting event?

What's it called when you go to your grandmother's house?

All good questions. Maybe I should post these on ESL.

What is it called when you go to ESL.SE?

RegDwighт

20:35

Alas, we'll never know.

Spare Oom

@Robusto Has ELL changed, its name to English, as a Second Language or is ESL some, thing ELSE?

superfluous, commas can be fun

RegDwighт

ESL, has changed its. Name by popular request.

14

Q: Why limit the new group to ESL?

Proposal: English as a Second Language People often ask questions which are too basic for ELU, though the people asking are not ESL students. Why not broaden the new group to accept all basic questions which do not need the intervention of a serious language researcher?

culture

Spare Oom

20:51

3

Q: What it's called when you stay at hospital?

When you stay overnight at the hospital (in the UK, at hospital) for a period of time, for whatever reason, what do you call it? A hospital stay?

meaning

When people pose questions in this way, is it useful or worthwhile to edit the title into a proper question?

RegDwighт

It's always useful to edit the title so it makes sense grammatically.

Mitch

@tchrist "Basically, there are two, main forms of English in the world. American English and English."

@SpareOom They signify, a, pause. You know, for effect.

"...the two men soon start falling into an unseemly state of agreement. The last thing you want in a cage fight is two hulking battlers shaking hands and each expressing the feeling that the other is a good-hearted and well-meaning fellow"

from Language Log, Geoffrey Pullum

Spare Oom

@Mitch YesIdoknowthat. Thankyouverymuch. speaking ineffectually

Mitch

@SpareOom I just noticed someone using commas as pauses on purpose but not in 'normal' places that commas go

Matt Эллен

21:06

in The Overlook Hotel, Sep 12 at 18:39, by Matt Эллен

You've, never seen, a sentence, that couldn't, be improved, by adding, half a dozen, commas?

Spare Oom

@Mitch This? ^

Mitch

@SpareOom ha ha..no because that is obviously tongue in cheek. meant as though it was supposed to be done that way.

and in the past 10 minutes.

tchrist

@SpareOom Tristan is the supercomma king.

Spare Oom

I noticed.

Mitch

can't you read through my mind to what I was seeing back then?

Come -on- people.

@tchrist Yea probably him.

tchrist

21:12

-7

A: Differences between dialects

That's a good question, Marco. It raises a point that is not often addressed, when foreigners learn English. That is, that there is not one form of English. Many foreigners naively assume that there is. Until it comes time to put it into practice. Not everyone from an English-speaking land, s...

That one I didn’t edit. It’s flamebait.

The other humptizillion, I did.

Most ESL writers write better than Mr English does.

Spare Oom

What makes the text faded out?

tchrist

Suckage.

Mitch

down voted super too many times.

tchrist

Low score.

Mitch

and suckage.

double jinx

cake!

tchrist

21:14

> Consider your, personal needs and who you will be communicating with, in English.

He has, the most amazing, commas.

Spare Oom

Could he actually talk like that?

tchrist

I have proof I could write better than than at ten years old.

And he, says that he has, no, accent you, know.

He uses "whining" the way David does: as a synonym for American.

Mitch

@tchrist yes, that is exactly the instance I was thinking of.

tchrist

Damned pommies.

Mitch

@tchrist How dare you!

tchrist

21:16

Not me. David divides girls in two, you know.

Mitch

you used those two words in the same sentence. or at least the sam eline.

@tchrist his heart is in the right place?

tchrist

It isn’t his heart they should be concerned about.

I wanna go back to a simpler world.

0

Q: What is the polite way to refer to the children of a transgendered individual?

So, my neighbor across the street was a man, but is now a woman.She provided the genetic material for her children when she was still a man. I realize that transgendered individuals prefer to use their "post-re-assignment" gender, but in explaining her progeny, I tend to use the statement, ...

word-usage

Mitch

From Tristan's second (downvoted) answer to the same question:

"If you are speaking or writing to, Americans or other American English speakers, you should use their dialect, in order to be understood. Therefore, use their particular words, names or spellings (when writing)."

note the lack of the Oxford comma in the second sentence.

tchrist

His commas are simply random.

> American English is so very different, because it is spoken and written, in its own, particular dialect

Or

> It also, is always spoken in its own accents, which are very strong and distinctive. Most are harsh and whining. Even the milder American accents, are still very strong. If you learn American English, you will be instantly noticeable for having a harsh, whining accent. You would not only be learning a language but, you would also learn a very strong and foreign (non-English) accent.

Spare Oom

It makes it a little difficult to read I wonder if he knows what punctuation is used for.

tchrist

21:24

He is a bratty little teenager. I doubt if he knows anything. There is plenty of evidence to the contrary.

Matt Эллен

maybe he thinks he needs to put a comma every 8 words

tchrist

> This is because American English is so very different. It is just one, particular form and, is foreign (it is not of Britain) and therefore, is not literally, English.

Mitch

@MattЭллен maybe it is a literal tic.

tchrist

Apparently.

> If you are speaking or writing to, Americans or other American English speakers, you should use their dialect, in order to be understood.

Mitch

@tchrist what about time travel? what if the t-g woman is the grandchild of this offspring? What tense is that in?

Spare Oom

21:26

Apparently Irish, Scottish or Welsh English are not real English either. Only English English is correct and also called British English.

tchrist

Apparently written English is no longer taught in England. Or is just missed all those classes.

Plus it has no accent.

Lovely, that.

Spare Oom

He doesn't need them. He has no accent.

Jinx

Robusto

@Mitch Indeterminate tense, or loop aspect.

tchrist

This is the guy who thinks correct British English has r's that only he can hear, but which Americans think are missing because we’re dumb.

That the r's in RP farmers are delicate and subtle, not missing.

This kid does not know his r’s from a hole in the ground.

I was going elsewhere with whole, but not worth it.

Mitch

@Robusto Each person would reflexively refer to their own life time-line, with a decalage between people depending on age calculated by entropy.

Robusto

21:30

Sep 20 at 1:22, by Robusto

@TRiG Yes, well, enjoy smugly saying the five syllables of "dual carriageway" every time you mean "highway" and reassure yourself that speech and spelling that aren't awkward and syllabically and orthographically challenged don't really build character and empires, and that what you really came here to do was to take it up the poop chute and build empires, except that, sadly, you're all out of empires.

Smugness is the disease caused by loss of empire. Be kind.

Mitch

for me there are only 4 syllables. your whole argument collapses.

tchrist

What, the Danelaw?

Mitch

that was an empire?

Matt Эллен

it was a line

Robusto

@Mitch Which necessary syllable do you omit?

Mitch

21:33

on a map

Robusto

And no ninja diphthongs, please.

Mitch

'dool';. I say 'dool' not 'doo uhl'

tchrist

dool kerjway.

Robusto

@tchrist Bullshit. You use a Y-glide in "dual" — admit it.

Mitch

I have two syllables for 'carriage'

you mean 'dyool'?

tchrist

21:34

@Robusto What, you wanna duel?

Robusto

Duly, I do.

tchrist

Ok, Tom.

Robusto

Dully, I don't.

Mitch

I, dyew not.

Robusto

Sep 18 at 15:25, by Robusto

I wonder if the British love to win prises
By trying on hats of various sises
Before they invarably do grow ould
And are buried deep in the ground so could.

tchrist

21:37

prises the hat offa his head

Robusto

That's some could shit, that.

tchrist

Speakin of Jimmy.

Spare Oom

@tchrist This one needs the proposed etiquette site. Tough question, since the parent is sensitive as mentioned.

Robusto

We welcome your gould back into the fould.

Spare Oom

►

Robusto

21:43

Bite your tongue.

►

I think this is a better song on the general topic.

tchrist

Isn’t coherency self-defeating?

Robusto

@tchrist Bit of a sticky wicked, that.

tchrist

Not half so wicked as this:

Foe Toe Chop is so Weevil.

Spare Oom

@Robusto I'd never heard that one. Better song, yes, but does the song address the topic?

tchrist

OW NOES!

1

A: The place where the railroad crosses the road

How do you call those places where a railroad crosses an automobile road?: Of course, I've heard how they are called in English, but I suspect that they are called differently depending on whether the speaker is from UK, USA, Canada or Australia. So, please, specify in your answer ...

> It also depends on which form of English you learn and, which form you use.

Robusto

21:50

@SpareOom In the sense of the General Relativity conundrum, I suppose.

But, in truth, I just wanted an excuse to post that song.

Spare Oom

I always like their harmony.

Robusto

@tchrist This is the place where the bandage sticks to the wound.

Spare Oom

I wasn't allowed to have rock albums growing up. I think that must not have been on the radio.

tchrist

That’s a real carborundum.

Robusto

Red Special

The Red Special is an electric guitar owned by Queen guitarist Brian May and custom-built by May and his father. The Red Special is also sometimes named in reviews as the Fireplace or the Old Lady, both nicknames used by May when referring to the guitar. A guitar that would define May's signature style, the Red Special was purposely designed to feed back. May has used it on Queen albums and in live performances since the late 1960s. The name Red Special came from the reddish-brown colour the guitar attained after being stained and painted with numerous layers of Rustins' plastic coating...

That's not bad for a home-made guitar, yeah?

Spare Oom

21:58

Indeed.

KitFox

22:14

-4

Q: Word to describe highly ambitious female

The only word that comes close is 'bitch' and it's exceptionally derogatory. I've tried to look and ask people but nothing but 'bitch' comes up. Edit: I didn't mean to cause so much controversy but the reason I ask: "Man" carries the connotation of someone who can get things done, is ambitious,...

single-word-requests adjectives

OP is requesting reopen.

tchrist

@KitFox Are you looking for votes, or disagreement, or. . . .?

@KitFox ping

MετάEd

22:55

@RegDwighт Do I need to ping anyone if I post an update into a private mod room? Or does that happen automatically?

KitFox

23:36

@tchrist Yes?

tchrist

Hi.

KitFox

Hi.

tchrist

I was trying to understand what if anything you were looking for regarding the reopening issue.

KitFox

I was just pointing it out.

tchrist

Oh, ok.

Last I looked it had one reopen vote and one delete vote.

But I don't know when they were lodged.

I confess it isn’t as bad as the other one from yesterday.

It’s possible mine is the delete vote; I don’t really recall. But I’m sure mine is not the reopen vote.

I guess you’re looking for community consensus.

And the user has made an effort, and doesn’t seem like a dick.

But whether it is a tolerable question, I don’t know. I’m afraid it will still draw more heat than light.

KitFox

23:41

I have no strong feeling about it one way or the other. I had no strong feeling about it when he first posted it either.

But he did edit it, and would like to have it reopened.

So this is my due diligence.

tchrist

I can never tell whether I am overly reactive about women’s issues, considering that I am not now nor ever have been a purse-carrying member of the womenish clan.

KitFox

You are obviously a man.

tchrist

Uh

KitFox

Leading with "something like bitch" is not a good plan.

Even though he followed by saying "except not negative."

But I heard what he meant.

tchrist

The "eager beaver" response certainly wasn’t an inspired choice.

KitFox

23:44

shrugs

tchrist

If you heard what he meant, do you have any feel for how to better get that across without drawing fire?

KitFox

Most of the answers overlooked the "woman" part of the request.

tchrist

I’m sorry.

That that is typical.

KitFox

@tchrist There isn't a way. He is right about power and ambition being viewed as primarily male traits.

People will get upset because it is true.

MετάEd

@KitFox chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/6316054#6316054

KitFox

23:46

@MετάEd Check there.

MετάEd

ty!

tchrist

If there isn’t an obvious word that any of us can find after a bit of thinking, I don’t think it is going to happen. Which means it will lead to NC or OT mud.

KitFox

It will likely end up in some sort of philosophical discussion about gender equality and a lot of hurt feelings to end up with the answer "ambitious woman."

tchrist

Right.

I’ve known people who’ve gone for gender-studies degrees.

KitFox

That is actually what rankles me about the question.

"What is a word to describe an ambitious woman?" How about "ambitious"? Why should there be a "special" word?

tchrist

23:49

I don’t like "woman" there. It’s like "male nurse".

No using superpowers to jinx me. :)

KitFox

I have a friend who said he laughed every time people asked him how long he'd been a male nurse.

His reply was invariably "as long as I've been a nurse."

tchrist

"She’s an ambitious woman" and "He’s a male nurse" both carry gratuitous redundancies.

KitFox

Hence the offense.

As though her gender has to be made special note of.

tchrist

Remember, I was an early close voter.

KitFox

shrugs It really doesn't matter to me.

It's just very typical male behavior. I wonder if the asker realizes that.

tchrist

23:52

Well, I don’t think I shall do anything more with the question then.

I hope he doesn’t.

Because if he did, it would make him pretty icky.

It’s not great as it is.

Some people can learn. A lot of them, actually. But probably not here.

KitFox

"I was wondering if there's a word that describes a really intelligent female."

"Or, like, a chick who is into really cool stuff."

tchrist

I come from a matriarchal family. My mom took more years of assembly language than I did. Trust me, I watched all this crap back during the 70s during the rights’ movements.

KitFox

It's mellowed since then.

Mostly.

Except for those annoying lawmakers who think they know more about ladyparts than ladies do.

tchrist

But some places it’s no better. Many it is. Plus I live in a "peoples' republic" type place.

It’s not about knowledge, but about ownership.

They think they own them.

KitFox

They're just a bunch of perverts.

tchrist

23:57

In which sense? That they are unnaturally twisted?

KitFox

Yep.

tchrist

Or that they are kinky?

Ok.

KitFox

No. Twisted.

tchrist

You tweened me.

KitFox

They might also be kinky.

tchrist

23:57

I mean, it went back and wrote your answer above my already posted one.

KitFox

They do seem to get excited when they think about the dirty, dirty things that women with birth control get up to.

tchrist

(Now I wonder about NTP and clock drift synchrony.)

KitFox

And then really upset when we tell them about it in detail.

tchrist

They are not, um, "sex-positive".

In the progressive sense.

KitFox

Because it ends up being about female parts and the curse and whatnot.

tchrist

23:59

Curse? Menarche?

Or Eve?

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…