English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

10:00 PM

@Jez Again, harming a bully can actually prevent him from harming you. The link is clear. Not so in this case.

@WillHunting Sure I use it. Just not in certain senses.

Just as I say "or is that just me".

Jez

@Cerberus you don't think that ideas gain acceptance in society by widespread dissemination and promotion?

ЯegDwight

0

Q: Origin of the word "sport"

I wonder what is the etymology of the word sport. Vasmer says that it is from disport "amusement", a contraction from Middle English disporten from Old French desporter "to take away", "to distract from the work". But Starostin's Starling gives another etymology: Eng. sport < Old Eng. spyrd...

etymology

Cerberus

@Jez Not in an aggressive, unkind way, no.

ЯegDwight

Vasmer, eh.

I have that dictionary. All four volumes.

Cerberus

The people you want to convert are the reasonable, moderate centre.

ЯegDwight

10:02 PM

It should be handled with extreme care.

Cerberus

@ЯegDwight Really?

That's cool.

ЯegDwight

Of course. It still is the Russian etymological dictionary. Even though it's wildly inaccurate.

Jez

@Cerberus they're not very reasonable if they think that a "swear word" combined with a religion deserves censorship.

ЯegDwight

Sep 23 '11 at 23:14, by RegDwight Ѭſ道

Vasmer can be awfully unreliable.

Apr 2 at 0:03, by Vitaly

@Cerberus yes, Liberman puts it into the same bunch as Vasmer's etym. dictionary because it “reveals the extent of the authors’ knowledge of their subject”, which is what I like about Vasmer

Cerberus

@Jez Reasonable as in may change their opinion about religion and freedom of speech in time.

@ЯegDwight Right.

ЯegDwight

10:04 PM

Basically, Vasmer boils down to "when in doubt, assume it's borrowed from German".

Jez

@Cerberus if they had been brought up in a society where mockery of religion was commonplace, their opinion of it now would be much more tolerant. Australia has more of a jovial culture where that's concerned, for example.

Cerberus

@ЯegDwight Great.

@Jez Holland is quite tolerant in that respect too.

But anyway, I think being nice to people is very important, not to be discarded for some vague political motive.

Jez

@Cerberus i don't get that impression. anyway, with regards to the Netherlands, didn't Geert Wilders try to make a "serious" criticism of Islam? seems that the jokers got a better reception than him.

@Cerberus you should be afraid that your kind of attitude will be lost because it is not strong enough to defend itself.

Cerberus

@Jez Wilders is an idiot. He is not an intellectual, he just tries to insult Muslims on purpose. For example, he proposed a "head-rag tax" on head scarves. It is not functional or remotely realistic, just trying to get some attention and votes. As to his film, that was extremely superficial and worthless. And untrue in many important aspects.

@Jez Nonsense. Religion has been declining for a long time in Europe, East Asia, and the Americas, and it will continue to do so. In the rest of the world, it is a bit slower, but it will happen eventually.

tchrist

@Cerberus Why?

Cerberus

10:13 PM

Why what?

Jez

@Cerberus has been, but is it not on the rise again? the catholic church is flexing its muscles, and yes, Islam is too.

tchrist

Why will religion eventually disappear?

Jez

@Cerberus there is very serious debate about whether free speech should be curtailed when it comes to offending religion

@Cerberus this is not the time to be sitting back and waiting for things to come good

ЯegDwight

@Cerberus it's on the rise in Russia. That's 100 million Europeans.

Cerberus

@Jez It is not on the rise. Look at church attendance, stated belief in God, etc.

ЯegDwight

10:15 PM

@tchrist taxes. Die Dschömans are dropping out by the thousands.

Jez

@Cerberus in Jerusalem, Orthadox Jews spit on girls as they go to school

Cerberus

And look at the elites, most of all.

tchrist

I can’t see any reason for it to go away.

It never has before.

So why would it go now?

Jez

@tchrist before, there were many scary things we didn't have a scientific understanding about.

@tchrist today, it's basically down to what happens after you die; and religion doesn't even have a more-convincing answer to that.

tchrist

So?

Cerberus

10:16 PM

@tchrist There is no "why" in history, I would say. It is just happening. It is clearly declining in the richer half of the world, and the richer half is nearly always the forerunner in social developments. Just as religion declined faster in cities here than in the country.

tchrist

Religion serves other purposes that a replacement science textbook.

ЯegDwight

@Cerberus I do wonder, haven't you heard of the United States? Or do you not count it to the richer half of the world?

Cerberus

@Jez It has always been curtailed. That has been in our constitution since 1848. Details. Look at the longer term.

tchrist

This isn’t something like smallpox, something that can be eradicated forever.

ЯegDwight

People who print "In God We Trust" on their money (or "God zij met ons", for that matter) clearly accept religion as an axiom.

Jez

10:18 PM

@Cerberus people are fighting to maintain the freedom we have now, though. if they relaxed, it would be lost.

Cerberus

@ЯegDwight Is it really? A long-term trend? Figures? Because I think Russia is a very complicated case, with very problematic definitions. In communist China, officially noöne is religious. So what stats should we be considering?

ЯegDwight

Any state constitution that grants freedom of religion clearly accepts religion as an axiom.

Cerberus

@Jez Of course. A tiny ripple in the course of history.

Jez

@ЯegDwight what do you mean "as an axiom"?

ЯegDwight

@Cerberus no idea about China, but I can speak with confidence about Russia. I'm a first-hand account myself.

Cerberus

10:20 PM

@ЯegDwight Religion is declining in the USA. I have posted the figures here several times.

Jez

@Cerberus they're growing in number rapidly.

Cerberus

Has been declining for a long time.

ЯegDwight

@Jez as a given. Religion exists, and that's great, period.

Cerberus

@ЯegDwight Oh, please.

Jez

@ЯegDwight i'd have to take issue with "and that's great".

ЯegDwight

10:20 PM

@Cerberus that is your argument? "Oh, please"?

Jez

it's an acknowledgement that you don't get rid of religion by banning it.

Cerberus

@Jez Israel is of course terrible, but it is a tiny country.

Jez

@Cerberus actually, much of Israel is fine. and they hate the Orthadox jews.

Cerberus

A long-term trend towards x ≠ every single person in the world has x.

Jez

i feel particularly sorry for those guys.

Cerberus

10:22 PM

@ЯegDwight Did you mean that seriously?

tchrist

wonders what Orthadox Jews are

Cerberus

@Jez But the Israeli orthodox Jews are gaining power.

They are breeding like rabbits.

Jez

what does that have to do with my point?

Cerberus

They are still an underclass, because they're mostly poor; but the nationalist hawks use them.

@Jez Probably nothing.

ΜετάEd

A religion is a social construct which exists to defend and perpetuate a set of beliefs. Whether a given religion is good or bad depends on the quality of the beliefs it exists to defend.

ЯegDwight

10:23 PM

@Cerberus Of course! The whole multitrilliard advertising business is based on the notion that if you see "X is great" often enough, eventually you'll buy it. So what do you think happens if your government goes ahead and substitutes God for X and puts it on your frigging money?

ΜετάEd

There is no making gross generalizations that religions are bad, in other words.

tchrist

I don’t think you see what religion is about if you think it’s some magical ghost stuff.

Jez

@ΜετάEd no, a religion is always bad because it promotes the idea of blind faith. that's bad whether or not that blind faith is in something sensible.

tchrist

Wrong.

ΜετάEd

@Jez No, that is not true of all religions. It is true of some of them.

2

ЯegDwight

10:24 PM

But anyway. I'm not here. I'm reading up on iOS 6.

tchrist

You cannot blind a Jesuit.

Jez

@ΜετάEd really? what could you call a "religion" that that doesn't apply to?

Cerberus

@ЯegDwight God has been on money for centuries here. Meanwhile, religion has declined. Ergo, no strong connection. Explanation: it is an extremely superficial feature that means next to nothing.

ΜετάEd

“If scientific analysis were conclusively to demonstrate certain claims in Buddhism to be false, then we must accept the findings of science and abandon those claims.” —Dalai Lama XIV

tchrist

Et voilà.

ΜετάEd

10:26 PM

@Jez The quotation above is certainly a religious statement which is not only not an example of blind faith but actually a criticism of it.

Cerberus

@ЯegDwight Very important! The Apple religion need to be studied!

@Jez How is religion any blinder than any other ideology?

tchrist

One think that religion is about community, about its cohesion and transmission.

ЯegDwight

@Cerberus it's only superficial and means nothing until you try to get rid of it. What do you think happens if Obama says, "let's erase 'In God We Trust' from our bills, and while we're at it, I won't say 'God Bless America' anymore, either"?

tchrist

The need for those things will never go away.

ΜετάEd

@Jez I would also certainly nominate Unitarian Universalism as a religion which opposes blind faith; Freethought is another.

Jez

10:26 PM

@ΜετάEd sorry, what quotation?

tchrist

And whatever fulfils it, you will call a religion.

ΜετάEd

@Jez The Dalai Lama quotation I posted.

Jez

Freethought is a religion? well now we're down to definitions.

Cerberus

@ЯegDwight What is your point? I am not saying religion is not important any more in America: I'm just saying it is declining. It is a slow process, of course.

ΜετάEd

North Texas Church of Freethought

The North Texas Church of Freethought (NTCOF) was founded by Tim Gorski and Mike and Marilyn Sullivan in 1994 to serve the psychosocial needs of atheists, agnostics, and other non-religious people in the Dallas-Fort Worth area. The first service was held at what was then the Wilson World hotel in Irving, Texas; currently they are held at the Sheraton Grand DFW Airport North in Irving, Texas. Sunday School classes are provided for children. It was joined in March 2000 by the Houston Church of Freethought. A Northern California Church of Freethought was founded in 1999, but has since disba...

Jez

10:28 PM

@ΜετάEd ah right. many people don't define Buddhism as a religion, and I don't think I would either.

Cerberus

@tchrist I would not call anything that fulfils that function a religion. An ideology, perhaps.

tchrist

You will obliterate religion when you annihilate humanity, and not before.

ΜετάEd

@Jez Then take a look at the 19th century pre-war German freethinkers; there was a huge freethought religious tradition in Texas (and sadly it was ruined). But the point is that Freethought can be a religion.

Jez

@ΜετάEd that's just asinine

Cerberus

I do not foresee a decline comparable to that of religion for ideology as a whole.

ЯegDwight

10:29 PM

@Cerberus my point is that the process is too slow to be meaningful in any way. There are more religious people being born in Asia each day than there are atheists in all of the Netherlands.

ΜετάEd

@Jez I see what you did there. If you define as "not religion" any religion which incorporates reason, then of course all religions are not reasonable. But only because of semantics.

tchrist

insults the atheists’ God

Cerberus

@ЯegDwight Meaningful is vague.

@tchrist Flag!

Jez

@ΜετάEd and if you incorporate belief systems that don't limit free thought into the definition of "religions", the of course not all religions are unreasonable.

tchrist

If the atheists’ God is offended, He shall flag me Himself.

Jez

10:30 PM

a "church of freethought" sounds to me like a "prison cell of freedom"

ЯegDwight

@Cerberus you were the first one to use "meaning". You never defined it. I just followed suit.

Cerberus

@ΜετάEd Were they similar to Comte's Positivist Church?

@tchrist flogs you

@ЯegDwight Did I?

ΜετάEd

@Jez I think at least there is no question that Unitarian Universalism is a religion. I wouldn't hesitate to consider Buddhism a religion. It's a major world religion.

ЯegDwight

@Cerberus you did.

Anyway, who did I promise to ping once the chat is on fire?

Cerberus

In my position that religion is in a long-term decline?

ЯegDwight

10:31 PM

Because I sure as hell can't keep up with everyone.

Cerberus

Not me.

ΜετάEd

@Cerberus About Texas German freethinkers: ffrf.org/legacy/fttoday/1998/april98/scharf.html

simchona

@ЯegDwight @JohnJunior

Cerberus

@ΜετάEd Hmm that is a bit long, but I'm sure they're cool.

ЯegDwight

@Cerberus no in your position that seeing "In God We Trust" a hundred times a day isn't meaningful.

@simchona thank you.

Except now that I'll drop out of the discussion, it will be easier to follow.

Jez

10:33 PM

> As of 2006, fewer than about 20% of Unitarian Universalists identified themselves as Christian.

heh. well i confess to being ignorant of that one.

"In God We Trust" is arguably as irritating to the nonreligious as "In No God We Trust" would be to the religious.

Cerberus

@ЯegDwight I would define meaningful as having a strong link with church attendance, belief in God, and the importance of religion in society in general, I guess? "God zij met ons" is not meaningful in that way, because it did nothing to stop irreligion here, nor did irreligion insist on changing the phrase. I, for example, am fine with having this nice reminder of our history and cultural heritage on our coins.

@Jez Haha that would be funny.

ΜετάEd

@Cerberus In the United States, maybe we should have "white" and "colored" signs over drinking fountains, not to separate people, but just as a nice reminder of our history and cultural heritage.

tchrist

There are no atheists in foxholes

The statement "There are no atheists in foxholes" is an aphorism used to argue that in times of extreme stress or fear, such as when participating in warfare, all people will believe in or hope for a higher power. Origin The precise origin of the phrase is uncertain. Various sources credit Lieutenant Colonel William J. Clear , or Lieutenant Colonel William Casey, but the phrase is most often attributed to journalist Ernie Pyle. It has also been attributed to U.S. Military Chaplain William T. Cummings in a field sermon during the Battle of Bataan in 1942. Usage While primarily used to comm...

Cerberus

@ΜετάEd claps hands Yay!!

That would be nice.

Jez

@Cerberus careful, you're in dangerous territory. you might offend people.

Cerberus

10:41 PM

@ΜετάEd We could take some old signs from musea saying "no Jews" and hang them up in shops as in the old days.

@Jez Then screw them.

I'm not saying this to anyone in particular that I know might be offended.

ΜετάEd

@Cerberus And "no Gypsies".

Cerberus

@ΜετάEd Strangely, we had no such signs, I believe.

Gypsies don't go to shops by day anyway, because they just steal what they want.

Everyone knows that!

ΜετάEd

"Irish need not apply".

Cerberus

Hehehe.

Jez

@ΜετάEd why? do they already get the job by default?

tchrist

10:44 PM

“No singlets”

Cerberus

But seriously, statements that are directly discriminating in a bad way are nothing like "God zij met ons".

@tchrist Now those signs would be great.

ΜετάEd

@tchrist I read that as "no sniglets".

Cerberus

If we mean the same thing.

tchrist

@Cerberus Why?

Cerberus

Bleh!

ΜετάEd

10:45 PM

@Cerberus It's not really true. "In God We Trust" is also code for "Atheists Eat Babies".

Cerberus

Jez

sasha baren cohen. what a madman.

Cerberus

@ΜετάEd As long as it is properly coded, it's OK as an historical reminder to me.

tchrist

Um, not a singlet.

Cerberus

@Jez *Jew

tchrist

10:48 PM

A singlet is a shirt without sleeves.

Cerberus

Usually...

tchrist

In Vancouver, there are restaurants with rude signs forbidding singlets on men.

ЯegDwight

Why does Wikipedia say that Allahu Akbar means "God is great"? Heck, even Yahoo Answers got it right!

Cerberus

I am on the fence about dress codes in semi-public places like restaurants.

tchrist

Thereby sexistly encouraging them on women only.

Cerberus

10:49 PM

@ЯegDwight Does it not mean that?

tchrist

Provided they shave their armpits.

Or places that only allow sandals on women.

Really rank.

Cerberus

What really worries me is how certain people are refused entry to clubs.

That is an actual problem.

ЯegDwight

@Cerberus no. Allah doesn't mean God. The word for God is ellah or some such, I dunno, I forgot. Allah means Allah.

Cerberus

They always pretend it is about dress, and it often is, but in many cases it is just an excuse for discriminating people.

@ЯegDwight What is the difference?

tchrist

It’s about people they don’t like the looks of.

Cerberus

10:51 PM

That is a problem.

Moroccans, for example, are very often refused.

tchrist

A private club is allowed to let in, or not let in, whomever they please.

Cerberus

Not exactly.

Not here anyway.

It is complicated.

tchrist

Whites-only clubs are a problem.

ЯegDwight

@Cerberus The difference is that between saying god, God, Jesus, etc. They are completely different things.

Cerberus

Discrimination is not allowed anywhere, except it's often vague and complicated.

@tchrist Exactly.

@ЯegDwight Why? The words god and God aren't even Arabic?

ЯegDwight

10:53 PM

I don't understand the question.

Cerberus

I mean, no two words from different languages are ever truly equivalent. You just pick something.

You can't pick some other Arabic word to translate Allah into English, obviously.

tchrist

@ЯegDwight cognate to Elohim.

Cerberus

But who decides whether an English word is an appropriate translation, and why (not)?

What would be a better translation of Allah, then? And what is the Arabic word that would be a better equivalent of God, if not Allah?

ЯegDwight

@Cerberus the Quran. It says ellah when it means God, and it says Allah when it means Allah.

@Cerberus Allah is a proper name. The translation is Allah.

Cerberus

Okay...so what is the difference between those two entities in the Quran?

ЯegDwight

10:55 PM

That is the question.

tchrist

> The related nouns eloah (אלוה) and el (אֱל) are used as proper names or as generics, in which case they are interchangeable with elohim.

ЯegDwight

I read a good discussion once, but damn me if I can remember where.

Cerberus

Then I am having difficulty forming an opinion on the issue.

ЯegDwight

A couple quick Google searches get me the same info but not the same nice analysis.

@Cerberus I would have long let you read it if I could.

Cerberus

It's OK.

I would rather hear it from you than from an article anyway.

ЯegDwight

10:57 PM

The point is, the difference is crucial.

Cerberus

Hmm.

ЯegDwight

Kind of like the difference between "You shall not kill" and "You shall not murder". Which so many people get wrong, too.

Cerberus

If you say so.

And yet, I believe some Muslims use "God" for Allah too, don't they?

ЯegDwight

Probably.

tchrist

> ʾIlāh (Arabic: إله‎; plural: آلهة ʾālihah) is an Arabic term meaning "deity". The feminine is ʾilāhah (إلاهة, meaning "goddess"); with the article, it appears as al-ʾilāhah الإلاهة. It appears in the name of the monotheistic god of Islam as al-Lāh, translated, that is, "the god". All of them forms of the most basic original form known to pre-Semites peoples and others in the Levante as Elah, and from the god El.

Cerberus

10:58 PM

And why can't ellah be god, and Allah God?

tchrist

> In Malaysia, it is illegal for Christians, Jews, or any other non-Muslim to refer to their God as "Allah".

Cerberus

Gotta love Malaysia.

tchrist

Deity

A deity ( or ) is a being, natural, supernatural or preternatural, with superhuman powers or qualities, and who may be thought of as holy, divine, or sacred. Believers may consider or believe that they can communicate with the deity, who can respond supernaturally to their entreaties, and that the deity's myths are true. Some religions have one supreme deity, others have multiple deities of various ranks. C. Scott Littleton's Gods, Goddesses, And Mythology defined them as "a being with powers greater than those of ordinary humans. but who interacts with humans. positively or negatively...

Cerberus

They have the silliest laws. They don't understand history or human nature at all.

tchrist

That’s redirected from Ilah.

ΜετάEd

11:02 PM

@Cerberus perhaps "the God".

ЯegDwight

@ΜετάEd well that's the literal meaning, yes.

ΜετάEd

@ЯegDwight Right. Just as Popeye is the literal meaning of Yahweh.

Cerberus

@ΜετάEd Yeah, why not.

ΜετάEd

@Cerberus It's true. I yam what I yam, and that's all that I yam.

ЯegDwight

@ΜετάEd that's another funny thing. You'd think people would stop worshipping a god they had long forgotten the name of, but no. Eat that, @Cerberus.

user19161

11:07 PM

@tchrist Even though the three religions share the same God. How silly!

tchrist

@WillHunting Apparently not in Malasia.

ЯegDwight

I'm off to sleepyland. Deus vult!

tchrist

@ЯegDwight In monotheism, there is no need to name one’s god, as there are no others.

ΜετάEd

@WillHunting I don't think so.

tchrist

Good night, Reg.

Or good morning.

ЯegDwight

11:09 PM

@tchrist tell that to the Bible.

Cerberus

@ЯegDwight God point, people also worship the (apparent) deity officially known as "the new Ipad".

ЯegDwight

Ouvert et haut !

tchrist

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Dang it.

Cerberus

It doesn't even have a number any more, let alone a name.

tchrist

Tweener.

user19161

11:09 PM

@Jez Well, it all depends on one's definition of religion. There are also various different types of Buddhism. Many arguments in the world are but arguments over definitions.

Cerberus

@tchrist What was this pointing at.

tchrist

God point.

s/God/Good/?

user19161

Is ouvert et haut the new over and out @reg?

tchrist

That’s just his ghost.

ΜετάEd

@WillHunting No, there are arguments over definitions, but when it gets serious it's because there is a substantial difference. Redefining is a tactic.

Cerberus

11:11 PM

It is hardly new, but yes.

@ΜετάEd Not sure I agree about that.

ЯegDwight

@tchrist if I have to spend my last breath on betweening you because you're too slow to find the Alt code for the caret, I'll totally do it. I mean, again.

tchrist

Shift-6.

ΜετάEd

@Cerberus Counter example?

Where in the world are people being killed over semantic arguments?

user19161

@Cerberus Your typing Ipad hurts my eyes!

user19161

Repeat after me: iPad!

Cerberus

11:14 PM

@ΜετάEd Well, it's complicated, because religious wars or prosecutions are often partly about other issues, like economical issues.

user19161

iPad>ipad>Ipad.

Cerberus

@WillHunting That hurts my eyes.

user19161

@ΜετάEd I thought Popeye is the sailor man!

Cerberus

@ΜετάEd But it could be argued that the conflict about transubstantiation v. consubstantiation v. symbolism was mostly about definitions, because what the heck does it matter?

ΜετάEd

@Cerberus Yes, very much. People fight when they feel threatened. The Salem witch trials are remembered as a crazy religious thing but in actuality were largely about land. The accusations directly reflected economic conflicts between families and communities in the area.

John Junior

11:16 PM

hi @WillHunting

user19161

@JohnJunior Hi John.

ΜετάEd

@WillHunting I Am What I Am = I Yam Who I Yam. QED.

Cerberus

@ΜετάEd Yes, that is often the case. On the other hand, merely being "different" can be a powerful (partial) reason to start a conflict.

ΜετάEd

@Cerberus When your ultimate destination will be heaven or hell depending on what you believe, it becomes a matter of substance.

@Cerberus It makes it easier to sight in on the target.

user19161

Heaven and hell both begin with h, amazing.

Cerberus

11:19 PM

@ΜετάEd I find that problematic.

@ΜετάEd That, too. But not just that.

ΜετάEd

@Cerberus I'm not saying it's true, but if you honestly think it's the case then certain things become a matter more serious than life and death. People have killed other people because they feared a bad influence on their children. Nobody wants their children to be boiled in an eternal fire. They are willing to do a lot of stupid things because of that belief.

Cerberus

Any argument about definitions leads to conclusions that vary depending on the definition used and can so have consequences.

@ΜετάEd Yes, that is so; but why can't a fight over definitions not include all that?

I suppose it depends on your definition of what constitutes a fight over definitions.

ΜετάEd

@Cerberus It depends on what your definition is; which is dependent in turn on what the meaning of is is.

Cerberus

And vice versa, yes, yes.

ΜετάEd

Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo.

Cerberus

11:26 PM

That, too.

And this sentence is not true.

user19161

I can only understand one buffalo.

Cerberus

You know what's funny?

user19161

Cerb?

Cerberus

How some old bands would look crazy hip now, while others are the summum of bad taste.

(Even if their music is great.)

►

I like this song, but their outfits are just hurting my eyes and my toes at the same time.

All of them.

user19161

Well, taste varies greatly. Something can be funny because it is not, or not funny because it is too funny.

user19161

11:31 PM

Grace has been in this room the past few days, strange...

Cerberus

►

These outfits are admittedly very simple, but they would be great for a modern artist.

tchrist

@WillHunting I’ve never understood it either. I think they need to put in parts of speech in parens after each one.

Robusto

11:54 PM

@Mitch Was that picture from The Lathe of Heaven?

KitFox

I liked that book.

How was the movie?

Robusto

It was really good. The movies sucked by comparison.

KitFox

There was more than one movie?

Robusto

Yes. Both sucked.

BTW:

3

A: Best e-book formatting process?

Scrivener will export your manuscript as an e-book. I use it on a Mac, but I understand there will be a Windows version if there isn't already.

To answer your unspoken (in this chat) question.

KitFox

Oh, thanks.

I remember that question. I didn't remember you had answered it though.

I am very fond of the finished products I get out of LaTeX, but I think I need something more visual.

Were you around for the swearing earlier?

Robusto

11:59 PM

I ducked out.

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