English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room - 2012-09-20 (page 7 of 8)

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8:00 PM

@JohnJunior Why don't you just ask him what the letters are?

@simchona I have 3 times...

@JohnJunior You've just been guessing...

@waiwai933, can you please say what the letters in your Gravatar are?

11 mins ago, by John Junior

@waiwai933 What are the correct letters?

@JohnJunior Ok, I don't remember seeing that. I apologize.

np

:)

8:03 PM

:)

;)

@JohnJunior No flirting.

:O

@John None of that, either.

:-D

8:10 PM

0

Q: Unambiguous Way of Stating a Biconditional in Plain English

I am having a hard time understanding this section in Wikipedia's article on Logical biconditionals: Colloquial usage One unambiguous way of stating a biconditional in plain English is of the form "b if a and a if b". Another is "a if and only if b". Slightly more formally, one could say "b imp...

@John Have you tried to ask in ELU?

I think it could be on topic here

@Carlo_R. It probably shouldn't be migrated.

It's not closed, and it got answered.

@sim but, ... Here we can answer under a liguistic perspspective

@Carlo_R. There are a lot of questions that we could ask under such a perspective, but you don't need to troll through old questions to find them

The math focus probably helped in this case because it was posed as a math question, in a math context.

@Carlo_R.: here have been psychological experiments which show that most people interpret 'if p then q' mostly as a biconditional (at least in English). It is a modern (past 150 years) specific cultural artifact that mathematicians treat 'if p then q' as the unidirectional conditional.

Which means that mathematicians are treating the wording as technical jargon with different semantics than regular English speakers (I don't know about other languages.

@Mitch interesting, thank you.

:)

8:18 PM

Sort of like how when you see this slow moving animal with a shell on it's back walking across a street, you say 'Look out for the -turtle-'

And your pendantic biologist friend replies "That's not a turtle, it's more correctly called a 'tortoise', turtles are sea creatures".

To which you would then reply 'Oh, that reminds me, where is the twenty dollars I lent you last week?'

20

A: Do Americans use the world 'turtle' as a generic word to mean 'tortoise'?

It all depends on how technical you want to be. (I am writing as the spouse of a nationally recognized expert on wild turtles, tortoises and terrapins in the US.) In the US there are 50 species of "chelonians" excluding sea turtles. Among experts they are identified by strict Latin taxonimic n...

@Mitch I'm sure you like Bertrand Russel book.

Yes, US English.

> [E]ven experts in "casual" conversation use the word "turtle" to include "turtles, tortoises and terrapins"; e.g. "I study turtles."

But I'm not really here.

Go on.

C. p. marginataC. p. picta | synonyms = * Testudo pictaSchneider, 1783 * Chrysemys cinereaBonnaterre, 1789 * Emys belliiGray, 1831 * Emys oregoniensisHarlan, 1837 * Chrysemys pictaGray, 1856 * Chrysemys marginataAgassiz, 1857 * Chrysemys dorsalisAgassiz, 1857 * Chrysemys nuttalliAgassiz, 1857 * Chrysemys pulchraGray, 1873 * Chrysemys trealeaseiHurter, 1911 ; Chrysemys picta picta * Testudo picta Schneider, 1783 * Testudo cinerea Bonnaterre, 1789 * Emys cinerea Schweigger, 1812 * Emys picta Schweigger, 1812 * Clemmys picta Wagler, 1830 * Terrapene picta Bonaparte, 1831...

8:23 PM

@ЯegDwight I was going to say '...then you push him out of your moving car'. but then thought, no, he might hit the turtle.

Bad pic.

It’s actually a terrapin.

> The painted turtle (Chrysemys picta) is the most widespread native turtle of North America. It lives in slow-moving fresh waters, from southern Canada to Louisiana and northern Mexico, and from the Atlantic to the Pacific. The turtle is the only species of the genus Chrysemys, which is part of the pond turtle family Emydidae.

The pic is da awesum, whachatalkingaboot.

user image

> The painted turtle's generic name is derived from the Ancient Greek words for "gold" (chryso) and "freshwater tortoise" (emys); the species name originates from the Latin for "colored" (pictus).

Matt Эллен

the evil villain Terror Pin is a tortoise who throws bowling balls at people

8:25 PM

> "Painted turtle: state reptile of Michigan" is a short song for children.

Oh my.

Matt Эллен

that is short

♪ Long live our state reptile... ♪

We called him Tortoise because he taught us. Really you are very dull!

That’s just the appetizer. Wait till we get to the dessert tortoises.

Tortoises no gots wawa.

@Carlo_R. Yes I have, thank you.

8:28 PM

Not at all as purdy as the turtle.

My son, several years ago: "so why aren't they called the Teenage Mutant Ninja Tortoises?"

Your answer was?

I can't remember.

@simchona Ah yes, I am still a bit confused!

It seems she is posting shorter posts, but more frequently?

@DavidWallace Because you don't understand the answer.

11 mins ago, by Mitch

And your pendantic biologist friend replies "That's not a turtle, it's more correctly called a 'tortoise', turtles are sea creatures".

8:31 PM

The painted turtle is aquatic.

@Carlo_R. I've heard of him. "Turtles all the way down"

@JohnJunior TMNT live in a sewer. I think that counts.

@Mitch As a sea?

Emydidae are pond turtles. They are the common turtles that everyone knows. Just because you can find them on land sometimes doesn’t make ’em a tortoise.

@JohnJunior as water. which the sea is made of also.

0

Q: Polite phrase to ask for details

Usually, I send to a client "Cover Letter" with phrase "May I get the details?", if I need to get more information about his project. Suddenly, I have discover that it is not very polite. And now I can not understand - which phrase is best to polite and formal request for the information? I foun...

phrase-requests questions politeness

8:33 PM

> The Emydidae are most closely related to the tortoises (Testudinidae) and are included along with that family in the Testudinoidea.

What's with these questions all of a sudden.

Seems like there’s been plenty of it for a long time.

...he says rhetorically.

@Mitch But you'll never find a tortoise living in water.

Americans call them turtles because they are turtles.

8:35 PM

@tchrist Hah! I can just see two biologists - "So what should we call these testudy things?" - "no idea" - so, umm "testudi-noidea"?

@tchrist Americans call them ninjas although they are heroes.

May 10 at 15:56, by RegDwight ΒВBẞ8

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (1987 TV series)

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (known as Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles in Europe due to controversy at the time) is an American animated television series produced by Murakami-Wolf-Swenson. The pilot was shown during the week of December 28, 1987 in syndication as a five part miniseries and began its official run on October 1, 1988. The initial motivation behind the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles animated series was that, upon being approached to create a toy line, Playmates Toys was uneasy with the comic book characters' small cult following. They requested that a television deal be acquire...

> Turtles are reptiles of the order Testudines characterized by a special bony or cartilaginous shell developed from their ribs that acts as a shield. "Turtle" may either refer to the Testudines as a whole, or to particular Testudines which make up a form taxon that is not monophyletic.

@JohnJunior uh..right...cause it's TMNTurtles it's not a misnomer because they live in the water of a sewer.

Turtle may refer to any of the Testudines. Q.E.D.

They’re all turtles.

@ЯegDwight !! what was the controversy that led to 'hero' instead of 'ninja'?

8:38 PM

@tchrist And they make good chocolates :-D

@JohnJunior Those are the aforementioned dessert turtles.

Turtles, turtles la la la

@Cerberus Yeah! The chats used to be about 4 pages, but now they're cutting it down.

Mmmm ...I love turtles

Go to 'Censorship' in the TMNT article en.wikipedia.org/wiki/… where it explains how the puritanical EUropeans couldn't deal with the 'alternate' lifestyle of the medievally named reptiles.

8:41 PM

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Well, I'm off. To austria! bye!

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Have fun!

later

Bai!

@simchona Yeah, as long as the total number of posted questions per week remains the same, I'm fine with it.

This guy can’t figure out a condominium, which is a bad place to leave it.

0

Q: Does American "condominium" as applies to building ownership have an equivalent term in British or Australian or other English dialects?

An American "condo" is a building, usually residential or industrial, that is owned in condominium by multiple parties. I've recently learned that this term isn't used in conversation in Britain or Ireland. Does it still exist as a legal term there? What is the equivalent conversational term?

american-english dialects

Maybe it just isn’t used in polite convos.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Say hi to the wallabies.

8:46 PM

@tchrist On the Rodelbahn?

@Mitch I forgot. Teh wiki mentioned it.

Matt Эллен

safe travels @Mr.ShinyandNew安宇

god this network is tetchy

Matt Эллен

good night y'all

come on, who marked my accurate statement as inappropriate?

8:54 PM

@Jez Be careful. You managed to insult people.

people get insulted by all sorts of things all the time

3

if it's a lie, fair enough. if it's the truth, it should be A-OK.

It doesn't have to be inaccurate to be offensive. In fact, it can be offending precisely because of its accuracy.

@ЯegDwight I don't think it was accurate, though.

@ЯegDwight well then this network should make a choice to defend accuracy.

@simchona I am not reviewing its accuracy. I'm just saying that Jez's point isn't a point.

8:56 PM

caving into people's arrogance and aggression really really sucks.

@ЯegDwight Sorry, I'm not reading well today

Actually I forgot to check how many French got lynched today.

@Jez You aggressively insulted members of chat who had nothing to do with the event

It seemed to be pretty quiet, but then again I didn't check the news or reddit.

i never personally insulted anyone

8:58 PM

Offense is in the eye of the beholder. @Robusto got suspended for less. Four times.

isnt that saying something?

It says nothing other than that offense is in the eye of the beholder.

the logical conclusion of that hypothesis is that i can get anyone suspended, right now, by being offended, or that policy should not care about the taking of offence

As long as that anyone is Robusto, yes.

Now let me finish reading that iOS 6 review.

Jez, only a complete f**king moron would come to a public chat room, and insult somebody's religion like that. I lost all the respect that I had for you, when you made that remark.

9

9:03 PM

why is religion so special?

would you have lost that respect if i had insulted a political viewpoint?

Probably not.

I assume you don't have a religion, right?

right.

Well, for a religious person, God (or whatever they happen to believe in) can be a huge part of their life - the thing they love most, the thing they devote themselves to. And you think you can come along and tell them that everything they have built their lives around is full of s**t? And think it's acceptable in a forum like this? And then query it when I call you a f**king moron? Please!

what is a forum "like this"?

one that is restricted by the person who gets the most offended, it seems.

suckage.

well you know what? your respect for religion really offends me.

i am offended!

that offends me too! ooooh i'm offended.

Now, now children play nice.

9:13 PM

Should I add it as a new question? Would be nice to get a chance to access the original text (would also be nice to get a notification that my question got deleted...). — gerrit 24 mins ago

I thought one could always see one’s own deleted stuff.

Nope.

Oh.

I have always been able to see all mine.

There was a question about that on MSO a couple days ago, that's where I first heard it.

I’m kidding, of course, because I never had any deleted stuff to not see.

I only ever had deleted answers.

And all of them I deleted myself.

Not a good testing case.

9:14 PM

Exactly that.

@ЯegDwight Did you delete my question?

No.

@JohnJunior which now?

I've lost track of who's who.

I don’t know who these people are.

I wish they would not change their names so that the main and chat differ.

Einstein's quotes.

9:15 PM

The request on meta is from one gernt. His I didn't delete.

@JohnJunior Oh that. I don't think so.

Will and Sim did.

english.stackexchange.com/questions/83166/…

Why do I even look, people are faster.

I should go back to laughing at Apple Maps.

@ЯegDwight The two quotations do seem contradictory.

@DavidWallace by the way, i criticize Islam and other religions on plenty of public forums, who have no problem with it. some people here appear to be particularly stuck up.

@JohnJunior perhaps you should have stated just that. Always provide as much relevant information as possible. Otherwise people will pretty much have to reply with what you already know, missing your point.

9:18 PM

@Jez There are Muslims who frequent this chat room. This is not some public forum where everyone feels the same as you do.

@ЯegDwight That's why I used the word "combined."

Aug 16 at 15:02, by tchrist

Probably should islamocensor that one.

@simchona why on earth should it need to be? you do realize that some people think that society is about letting other people have and voice their own opinions, right?

@Jez You sound like Evan Carroll.

@JohnJunior I think I asked you what you meant by that, and even after that you still chose to be pretty vague. I certainly don't remember you saying, "don't they clearly contradict each other?"

9:20 PM

@ЯegDwight Does not "combined" normally mean combined in a logically consistent way?

@simchona erm, not quite.

Anyway. If you know they seem to contradict each other, what is the question? Whether they really do?

@JohnJunior which is the logically consistent way? That they contradict each other? Or that they don't? Both are logically consistent.

@Jez Either way, voicing your opinions is one thing. Everyone here argues all the time. But you were not arguing: you were bashing a religion for the sake of bashing that religion.

I'm not Muslim, but even I found what you were doing to be offensive.

9:22 PM

@ЯegDwight I'm trying to find a way that they don't contadict each other.

@simchona how do you distinguish between voicing one's opinion, and insulting for the sake of insulting?

@JohnJunior The way that they don't contradict each other is: obviously Einstein never meant them to.

Obviously he meant the exact same thing by each of them.

@Jez You were escalating your opinions to the point of calling it full of sh*t.

@ЯegDwight Well since the question is gone I don't have a chance to work on it do I?

Yes, that's unfortunate. Normally you get like two days.

9:25 PM

I didn't even get 12 hours :(

But seeing how the meaning is actually quite clear to you, I'm not sure what the point of the question would be anyway...

To make it clear to others?

@Jez Criticise or swear at? You understand that there's a difference, right?

I mean, I'm not sure what you're getting at. That Einstein wasn't keeping book of what he had said years earlier and happened to contradict himself if you take a word out of context and interpret it unfavorably?

looks for more flags

9:27 PM

@DavidWallace barely. "swear words" are just a concept arbitrarily invented by humans. tomorrow, society could label "silly" a swear word if it so desired.

I'm sure if he had said those two sentences immediately after one another, he'd have picked a more accurate wording.

"swear words" are, to my mind, there to intensify strong criticism

@tchrist Do you want to borrow some of mine?

@ЯegDwight His quotations are a study on to themselves.

I’m going to put my money down on 4, 7, and 11. Anybody else?

9:30 PM

Pass line?

@JohnJunior everything should be made as simple as possble, but not simpler. Perhaps we should use that quote as a guide in analyzing his other quotes.

@ЯegDwight Agreed.

anyone can help me to correct an english employment certificate?

@Jez A reasoned criticism is something I would not have a problem with, even if I disagreed with it. Calling a religion "full of s**t" is NOT a reasoned criticism.

0

Q: Employment Certify correction help

I fear this is not the right place for this, but i need some help with english grammar. I write 2 employement certify and i must to know if this certifycates correct at all. Thanks for yours help. Certify 1: This is to certify that John Smith has been employed in this company as Java Dev...

grammar correction

This one, I guess?

9:31 PM

yes

@DavidWallace it was also a bit of a joke. but apparently people's senses of humour here are lacking.

Certify 1:

This is to certify that

John Smith

has been employed in this company as

Java Developer / Cooperative Student
from 2012 July 1. to 2012 October 1.

He is qualified in this field, he is a good coder, developer.  He is also known to be personof good moral character. He can resolve problems in team and in self.
He is work in this company

The certification is being issued upon the request of Szabó Hunor for whatever reference purposes that it may serve him best.

Certified by:


Certify 2

@Jez Somebody's is, yes.

yes.

Moving it here, because it's not really on-topic on the main site.

9:32 PM

@ЯegDwight I closed it on main

thanks :)

@flatronka On a side note, I would refer to these as "recommendations" in English

businessmajors.about.com/od/samplerecommendations/…

Lots of adjectives/adverbs. First thing I noticed.

I noticed that there isn't a lot of substance about the actual person.

> to fervently recommend xxxxxxxxx yyyyy to your gratifying end to be give the preferential attention for an employment opportunity that your good company has offered.

9:34 PM

Have you thought about writing the letter in your native language, and then having someone bilingual translate it?

my team line manager says to write it myselft and he sign it

@ЯegDwight Apple Maps? What the heck are those?

@flatronka So you're writing this about yourself?

user19161

@Jez That is not the logical conclusion. Also, the world does not run on logic.

i searched from templates

9:36 PM

@flatronka A good recommendation letter says things that aren't stated within a resume

Skills in PHP, etc. are usually part of a resume

ok, but my grammar is very bad and my manager has no time to this kind of thing

i have a recomandation in hungaryan language

but its not a popular language

@flatronka Try reading through some of the letters here. They should give you a bit more material to work with.

@flatronka But can you find anyone who is bilingual in English and Hungarian, who could translate it?

user19161

@flatronka Now that is some weird manager you have.

i have no time, tomorrow i leave the company

9:39 PM

@WillHunting That's not too abnormal.

@WillHunting why isn't it the logical conclusion?

user19161

@DavidWallace Oh dear.

@flatronka But you could do it after that date, and get him to sign it, say in a week or so, couldn't you?

user19161

@Jez It takes enough people to be offended by something for something to become a rule. This has nothing to do with whether the thing should be offensive logically or not.

i leave the country to

9:41 PM

@flatronka Where are you going? Can your manager send a PDF?

@WillHunting well you got that right.

user19161

@Jez I have thought about such things for 9000 years.

@tchrist Those flags are pretty cool. Too bad about the music and the outfits.

Well, yes.

@WillHunting however, I was specifically responding to a point that "offense is in the eye of the beholder". that doesn't specify that there has to be more than one beholder.

9:42 PM

I was thinking that people could use some flagging practice.

Haha.

I already lost my six bits on 4, 7, and 11.

user19161

@Jez If so, a different interpretation of the sentence then.

@WillHunting you interpreted "beholder" as "beholders"?

user19161

I am sick and tired of religions that are anti-gay too. But the world is full of idiots.

4

9:43 PM

@simchona i go to sweden from budapest

@Jez I agree that religion shouldn't be treated differently from other principles and beliefs, but does this relieve one of common courtesy?

goetheburg

@WillHunting Aka the great majority...

Is it spelled Goetheburg in Swedish?

user19161

@jez There are ways to express your point and not sound offensive to certain idiots. You can get away with it if you choose the right words.

@Cerberus theamazingios6maps.tumblr.com

9:44 PM

We spell it with an n in Dutch.

@Cerberus a reasonable point. i (obviously) feel great animosity for certain religions because i perceive them to be a threat to what i hold dear. i don't tend to insult things for absolutely no reason.

@Cerberus The majority is not great. Look at a bell curve.

@Cerberus Dunch? I thought that was the afternoon version of brunch.

user19161

Also @jez although I agree with you on some points in the past about religion, I also disagree with you on various others. I cannot remember what.

@WillHunting Do you know what Islam actually says about homosexuality?

@Cerberus Goethebung?

user19161

9:45 PM

@DavidWallace Yes, I have read the Koran and the Bible, though I forgot lots of things.

I slam, you slam, we all slam for I slam.

@DavidWallace to his defense, what's really relevant is: do moslems know that?

I've read the Korean and the Bubble. I hear they're about nonsense.

anyone know a place, adress where i can get help for grammar correction

?

websites

@WillHunting OK, that's good then. I'd hate to think you were tarring it with an inappropriate brush.

9:47 PM

@ЯegDwight OMG hilarious. So did anything think that Apple had maps of comparable quality?

I didn't think they were bragging about that?

@DavidWallace do you think Islam is compatible with liberal democracy?

Besides, aren't they just using Open Street Maps?

@Cerberus techcrunch.com/2012/09/20/…

@Jez Yes.

@Cerberus they were not bragging. They just went and replaced Google Maps with that.

9:49 PM

@simchona Ah, so they down-graded in their new OS? Great...

New iOS 6 Apple maps app angering users and upsetting business owners (BBC via Reddit)

@ЯegDwight OK.

Why do they call it "Apple Maps"? I believe they're just using Open Street Maps or something?

Which is admittedly not as good as Google Maps, but still a laudable initiative.

I don't think they really call it that.

Apple sometimes screws over their own users to benefit mankind, so I applaud this development.

@DavidWallace how can it possibly be, given that it requires that a religion rule over people instead of democratic law?

9:50 PM

@ЯegDwight They do in Sim's quote.

user image

And this map is actually not bad.

user image

Over the river, and through the woods...

They just took one shot in winter, with snow.

@simchona SFBay != River

@tchrist Over the bay, and through the woods...

@simchona to be fair, Google does tell you to swim across the Atlantic Ocean, too. Literally.

What's a stinking bay against that?

9:52 PM

@ЯegDwight I remember seeing that. Or they tell you to kayak, sometimes.

user19161

@ЯegDwight What does it say? "Swim!"?

@simchona Yeah.

@Jez I dislike them too, but...the true test of one's manners comes when they are challenged by disgust.

@WillHunting "Swim across the Atlantic Ocean"

Not saying I'm always an example of punctilio.

And a true discussion often trumps certain bits of etiquette.

user19161

9:53 PM

@Cerberus Manners mean nothing to me. Manners are but superficial. What mankind needs is true empathy, not superficial manners.

@Cerberus there comes a point when being polite is just counter-productive, though. you don't let a bully beat you up.

But only in so far as is absolutely required.

@WillHunting Manners are the oil that keep society moving...

maps.google.com/…

See step 333

user19161

@Cerberus Precisely because society is too evil to have true empathy, so it resorts to superficial manners. QED.

@Jez That is only when you can use harm to avert harm to yourself. Don't you think that is a bit far fetched for an internet discussion?

9:55 PM

@simchona Oh haha, I went with NYC.

Almost a jinx.

@Robusto I mean the majority of religions weighted according to followers.

@Cerberus i think that the general widespread ridicule and mockery of religion is a very good way to keep free speech from being killed via the backdoor. my treatment for what i said here is good evidence of the fact that it's not yet widespread enough.

@simchona *Göthenburg, I think. I don't know, actually.

@WillHunting Manners can be very convenient. They make many things easy that would otherwise be painful.

They are like lesser ethics.

@Jez Sounds like something Evan Carroll would say.

user19161

@Cerberus Yes, you are right. I have already covered the case in my above statement.

9:57 PM

@flatronka sorry, I don't. I remember running into some through simple Google searches a couple years back, though. Shouldn't be too hard to find them.

@Jez Don't you think setting the right example, i.e. that of a kind, reasonable person is more effective?

I know, it's not always easy.

And I agree that believers should grow a thicker skin.

Most people should, actually.

@Cerberus it is in most cases. but against an ideaology that doesn't respect a good example, no. I don't think it's more effective. In the same way that I don't think it's more effective to be polite to the kind of bully that gets thons kicks out of beating you up.

@simchona Haha, fucking brilliant.

@WillHunting OK.

@Cerberus that is google having a laugh :-)

user19161

@Cerberus I did not know you use that word too. :-)

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