English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:00

@TRiG If by semi-divine, you mean semi^83rd power divine.

ΜετάEd

@TRiG How does that make him semi-divine? Lúthien is an immortal, but I would have called only the Valar/Maiar divine.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@ΜετάEd Luthien is half-elf, half maiar

ΜετάEd

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Ah. Gotcha.

TRiG

@ΜετάEd And Lúthen's mother is Melian.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

SHE was semi-divine.

TRiG

15:01

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yeah. Aragorn was demi-semi-hemi-....

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Her child was 1/4 divine.

TRiG

@ΜετάEd Well, Aslan was visible, so presumably not Eldil.

ΜετάEd

@TRiG Yeah. I had no idea. That makes sense.

@TRiG The Eldil (and the Valar) had the choice to be visible or not.

The Eldila, I should have said.

ЯegDwight

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Lütfen is Turkish.

TRiG

@ΜετάEd The Valar did. Did the Eldil? I've read only the first book in that series.

Eldila, then.

ΜετάEd

15:04

Eldil (sing.), eldila (pl.)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Okay, who are the Eldil?

ΜετάEd

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 The Eldila are the spirits of the planets in C.S. Lewis's space trilogy.

ЯegDwight

Luder is German for hussy.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@ΜετάEd ah, haven't read it.

ΜετάEd

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Lewis refers to Númenor in the foreword to one of those books.

He and Tolkien were buds.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:06

yeah

ΜετάEd

Inklings

The Inklings was an informal literary discussion group associated with the University of Oxford, England, for nearly two decades between the early 1930s and late 1949. The Inklings were literary enthusiasts who praised the value of narrative in fiction, and encouraged the writing of fantasy. Although Christian values were notably present in several members' work, there were also irreligious members of the discussion group. Members and meetings The more regular members of the Inklings, many of them academics at the University, included J. R. R. "Tollers" Tolkien, C. S. "Jack" Lewis, ...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I knew that, because I watched all 12 hours of special features from the extended LotR DVDs.

That was before I had kids, in case anyone was wondering.

Matt Эллен

it's a very small pub, by the way.

ЯegDwight

The Inklings infringed Cornelia Funke's copyright!

Matt Эллен

not much room to sit, these days

ΜετάEd

15:08

@ЯegDwight ?

ЯegDwight

Inkheart

Inkheart (original title: Tintenherz) is a young adult-child fantasy novel by Cornelia Funke, and the first book of the Inkworld trilogy. Based on a 2007 online poll, the National Education Association named the book one of its "Teachers' Top 100 Books for Children." Plot summary Inkheart follows the adventures of a 12-year-old girl named Meggie Folchart. Her life changes dramatically when she discovers that her father, a bookbinder named Mortimer, or Mo as Meggie always calls him, has an unusual ability which is that when he reads aloud, he can bring characters and items from books ...

ETCPP

She wrote a bazillion things about ink.

At first I thought the article you linked to was about some race in her books.

ΜετάEd

The Pillow Book (film)

The Pillow Book is a 1996 film by British director Peter Greenaway, which stars Vivian Wu as Nagiko, a Japanese model in search of pleasure and new cultural experience from various lovers. The film is a rich and artistic melding of dark modern drama with idealized Chinese and Japanese cultural themes and settings, and centers around body painting. It co-stars Ewan McGregor as Jerome, an English translator who becomes Nagiko's favourite lover. Greenaway also wrote the screenplay, in addition to directing. The film was screened in the Un Certain Regard section at the 1996 Cannes Film Festiv...

Matt Эллен

@ЯegDwight ha! she's half a hundred years too late.

ЯegDwight

@MattЭллен my point.

@ΜετάEd a Ewan McGregor movie I never heard of? Curious.

Matt Эллен

@ЯegDwight I thought you would probably say that

ЯegDwight

15:11

Well yes because it was.

Obviously.

Matt Эллен

You say it's obvious that your point is the opposite to what you said! How clear.

Robusto

@TRiG For the purposes of a humorous rant, the comparison is accurate enough.

TRiG

@Robusto And humorous rants are pretty much David Mitchell's stock in trade. He's famous for them.

ЯegDwight

Never heard of David Mitchell, he shouldn't think too high of himself.

tchrist

@MattЭллен Why was the March Hare so important to the Aztecs?

Matt Эллен

15:15

@tchrist I don't know

tchrist

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Wrong. Half-divine.

Robusto

I haven't the slightest idea.

ЯegDwight

It was only in the month of March that the Aztecs were allowed to harekiri.

tchrist

You haven’t seen the latest QI, I see.

ЯegDwight

True story, look it up.

Matt Эллен

15:16

@tchrist alas, no. I don't watch them all.

ЯegDwight

Who is QI?

I only have some IQ.

ΜετάEd

@ЯegDwight Well worth seeing.

Matt Эллен

The Q before QII

TRiG

@ЯegDwight That video I posted was by David Mitchell. He's a comedian. An intelligent one. He's a constant guest on Would I Lie to You?, and a frequent guest on QI.

@ЯegDwight Quite Interesting.

ЯegDwight

Not really quite, if I haven't so much as heard of it.

ΜετάEd

15:17

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Quick, hide the minors. ftfy

tchrist

In sunshine and in sheen of moon,
with silken robe and silver shoon,
the daughter of the deathless queen
now danced on the undying green,
half Elven-fair and half divine;
and when the stars began to shine
unseen but near a piping woke,
and in the branches of an oak,
or seated on the beech-leaves brown,
Dairon the dark with ferny crown
played with bewildering wizard’s art
music for breaking of the heart.

Robusto

@ЯegDwight Maybe he misspelled quiet.

tchrist

No hemidemi.

ΜετάEd

@tchrist I was counting on you.

ЯegDwight

@tchrist the last word should have been fart, obviously.

TRiG

15:18

@tchrist Dairon was the minstrel who was in love with Lúthien, wasn't he?

tchrist

@TRiG He was.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist are you saying that Luthien's child was also half-divine?

TRiG

Sheesh. I'll never get anything done if I stay here. EL&U has a really busy chat room.

tchrist

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 No.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist That's what I was saying: Luthien's child was 1/4 divine

tchrist

15:19

Melian was not half-divine. She was divine.

TRiG

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Half-human, quarter-elf, and quarter-ainu.

tchrist

Half elven-fair and half divine,
more lovely than the stars that shine
through frosty airs in darkest night
to music twirling in delight
were Lúthien’s dancing steps that spun
about the glades till one by one
all living things there paused that went
with padding footsteps on the bent.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

20 mins ago, by Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@ΜετάEd Luthien is half-elf, half maiar

19 mins ago, by Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

SHE was semi-divine.

19 mins ago, by Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Her child was 1/4 divine.

tchrist

Had wrong antecedent.

TRiG

@tchrist on the bent?

tchrist

15:21

Thus Thingol sailed not on the seas
but dwelt amid the land of trees,
and Melian he loved, divine,
whose voice was potent as the wine
the Valar drink in golden halls
where flower blooms and fountain falls.

ЯegDwight

I heard it through the grape divine.

TRiG

Is this from the songs of Tom Bombadil?

tchrist

@TRiG I beg your pardon!!!!

Matt Эллен

how much longer will you be Melian?

TRiG

@tchrist I know that itself is not Tom Bombadil's music, but didn't the collection of his songs also include some other poetry? Perhaps I misremember.

tchrist

15:22

Mayhap Lord Tavros from his gate
and tree-propped halls, the forest-god,
now rides wild stallion golden-shod
amid the trumpets’ tempest loud,
amid his green-clad hunters proud,
leaving his deer and friths divine
and emerald forests? Some faint sign
of his great onset may have come
upon the Western winds, and dumb
the woods now listen for a chase
that here once more shall thundering race
beneath the shade of mortal trees.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@TRiG aw, you were serious? star removed

tchrist

This is from the Lay. Of course.

TRiG

@tchrist Ah, the Lay of Lethian. Never read that. Obviously I should.

tchrist

Yes.

Would it were so! The Lands of Ease
hath Tavros left not many an age,
since Morgoth evil wars did wage,
and ruin fell upon the North
and Gnomes unhappy wandered forth.
But if not he, who comes, or what?”
And Dairon answered: “He cometh not!
No feet divine shall leave that shore
where the Shadowy Seas’ last surges roar
till many things be come to pass,
and many evils wrought. Alas!

Ooh! Subjunctive!

TRiG

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 grin.

tchrist

15:25

"till many things be come to pass"

The Lay is the source of many phrases in Gimli’s song of Durin.

A king there was in days of old
ere men yet walked upon the mould.
His power was reared in caverns’ shade;
his hand was over glen and glade.

...

Afar then in Beleriand,
in Doriath’s beleaguered land,
King Thingol sat on guarded throne
in many-pillared halls of stone.
There beryl, pearl, and opal pale
and metal wrought like fishes’ mail,
buckler and corselet, axe and sword
and gleaming spears were laid in hoard.

"many-pillared halls of stone"

TRiG

@tchrist Tolkien certainly had an ear for beauty in language.

tchrist

Alas that Thranduil the Elvenking from The Hobbit is but a dim and distant echo of Thingol!

TRiG

@tchrist Well, they were Moriquendi. What do you expect?

tchrist

The Lay is many thousands of lines long. Not all scintillate, but many do.

Thranduil was a Grey Elf ruling over Dark Elves, much as Thingol was a Light Elf ruling over Grey Elves. A dim echo.

Not that the Grey were not also Moriquendi.

But Doriath was special.

0

Q: Pronoun to refer to "always plural" noun

I'm looking for a pronoun to refer to data. I know that the word data is grammatically plural. But what about pronouns? The data are stored. It is backed up. The script visualises the data itself (referring to data, not to script). The data are stored. They are backed up. The script visualises ...

sighs

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:42

why have three people commented but nobody voted to close as dupe?

tchrist

Because it is not an exact dupe.

He is trying to mix singular and plurals in the same sentence, and asks why it sounds wrong.

Matt Эллен

> The Latin root datum is the singular, data is plural. I would retain this usage in English as well, but obviously I seem to be in the minority with that.

lol

english.stackexchange.com/a/82865/3559

tchrist

Yes, I read it.

Robusto

> Sometimes, there's a man, well, he's the man for his time and place. He fits right in there. And that's the Dude, in Los Angeles. And even if he's a lazy man - and the Dude was most certainly that. Quite possibly the laziest in Los Angeles County, which would place him high in the runnin' for laziest worldwide.

tchrist

English speakers often construe -a plurals as singulars. Bacteria. Phenomena.

ЯegDwight

15:45

Sigh. So you expect me to carry the load.

tchrist

Abides.

@ЯegDwight No.

ЯegDwight

This passive aggression will not stand.

@tchrist 2 l8.

tchrist

sits

ЯegDwight

@tchrist yeah, on your hands, apparently.

Matt Эллен

bbl. crow mooting

ЯegDwight

15:47

BTW, I just run into someone trying to close a very specific question about parsing HTML with regexes as a dupe of that nonsense monster.

tchrist

They’ll now bitch that there is no GR link that definitively answers this in a way understandable to the querent.

ЯegDwight

What did you say, you flag those? How? As what?

tchrist

@ЯegDwight They do that all the time. Pisses me the fuck off.

I get disputed flags from those.

ЯegDwight

@tchrist then I'll reopen and close as NARQ, which is what it is, but I wanted to be nice and not steal reps from the OP.

tchrist

GR does not in practice mean "I know a link but I won't tell you what it is". In fact, many times there can be no such link.

ЯegDwight

15:48

-1

Q: Python Regex - Parsing HTML

I have this little code and it's giving me AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'group'. import sys import re #def extract_names(filename): f = open('name.html', 'r') text = f.read() match = re.search (r'<hgroup><h1>(\w+)</h1>', text) second = re.search (r'<...

python regex

tchrist

I flag it if it is closed as a dupe of the nonsense.

ЯegDwight

Here. The poor sod just tries to match a <li> ferchrissakes.

Or an <h1> that then becomes a <li>. I forget.

@tchrist yeah I'll pass then.

tchrist

It’s too bad you can’t edit HTML with vi, isn’t it?

ЯegDwight

I can't edit anything with vi.

I only know qw!

tchrist

God, Python is palaverous!

ЯegDwight

15:51

Anyway, before I forget: I, for one, always leave a link when closing as GR. So this is gotta be my first.

Because honestly, I can't be posting wiki/Pronoun, can I.

tchrist

I kept asking why people don’t post links when closing as GR.

I got batted down because that would be throwing them fish.

ЯegDwight

They really should.

OIC. Hm.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

If you're going to answer a GR question in a comment, why bother closing it, instead of just answering it

ЯegDwight

The point is, a link is not an answer.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

the whole point of closing questions is because they shouldn't be answered

Robusto

15:54

But sometimes there's a man, sometimes, there's a man. Aw. I lost my train of thought here ...

ЯegDwight

People who ask GR questions often can't tell which paragraph in a linked wiki article is relevant to their needs at all. Which is why they ask the question in the first place.

So it's not really giving them fish. It's basic site etiquette.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Yeah. but looking up the answer to a GR question moots the whole point of refusing GR questions.

ЯegDwight

Especially since some of us do take their time to post LMGTFY links. Which is a big no-no.

tchrist

puts on the tea kettle for a long one

ЯegDwight

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 it is a fine line, sure. I'm just saying that that can't be their only excuse. Because in way too many cases a link is not "looking up an answer for them", it's telling them to look up an answer for themselves.

Robusto

15:56

@ЯegDwight Has the whole world gone crazy? Am I the only one around here who gives a shit about the rules? Mark it zero!

ЯegDwight

@Robusto I am too low for zero, since 1983.

That's why we go over these things.

Robusto

@ЯegDwight You have got to buck up, man. You cannot drag this negative energy in to the tournament!

ЯegDwight

@Robusto you're out of your element.

Robusto

@ЯegDwight You mean coitus?

ЯegDwight

Don't be silly, Jeffrey.

Robusto

15:59

My only hope is that the big Lebowski kills me before the Germans can cut my dick off.

ЯegDwight

Mar 23 '11 at 18:27, by RegDwight

Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man.

Robusto

Calmer than you.

@ЯegDwight Now, what happened to your face? Did Jackie Treehorn do that as well?

ЯegDwight

Well I gotta run.

Latorz.

Robusto

CU

I told that kraut a fucking thousand times that I don't roll on Shabbos!

tchrist

16:38

He made a brand new question out of the closed one!

0

Q: Can "they" refer to a collective noun?

According to Wikipedia, In British English, it is generally accepted that collective nouns can take either singular or plural verb forms. How does this affect their property of being singular or plural in other contexts? We use plural verb forms, but do we then also use plural personal pronouns? ...

grammaticality grammatical-number collective-nouns

Matt Эллен

EL&U Blog

Discussion for the EL&U Blog. For more info see meta.english.s...

bloggy blog bloggy talk

blog

Matt Эллен

16:54

@tchrist - have you had any time to work on your EL&U blog post about the subjunctive?

Cerberus

Yo.

Is it bad if you breakfast on beer?

Matt Эллен

maybe

Cerberus

OK.

Matt Эллен

I've not done it, so I don't know the consequences

@Cerberus is it something you've just done?

Cerberus

It...may be...

I had just woken up, and my friend came over, and I offered her beer.

And drank some myself.

Matt Эллен

16:57

you can be the Guineapig

Cerberus

BRB

Matt Эллен

oh dear.

Cerberus

Don't you mean Guinnesspig?

I drank only one beer.

Matt Эллен

ha! yes, Guinnesspig

how do you feel, so far?

Cerberus

Fine?

Matt Эллен

17:05

so far so good, then

Cerberus

Yes.

Matt Эллен

this conclusively proves that you can breakfast on beer

once

for a few minutes

Cerberus

Yay!

Matt Эллен

You'll have to keep a detailed log of the rest of your life, so that we can see the long term side effects

Cerberus

Why does this guy say "Scots language" instead of "Scotch" btw?

@MattЭллен Sure...

Matt Эллен

17:08

@Cerberus Scots is called Scots AFAIK

Scotch is a drink

Cerberus

Scots, an adjective?

I would say either "a Scotch expression" or "a Scottish expression" (more formal perhaps).

Matt Эллен

Scots language

Scots is the Germanic language variety spoken in Lowland Scotland and parts of Ulster (where the local dialect is known as Ulster Scots). It is sometimes called Lowland Scots to distinguish it from Scottish Gaelic, the Celtic language spoken in most of the western Highlands and in the Hebrides. Since there are no universally accepted criteria for distinguishing languages from dialects, scholars and other interested parties often disagree about the linguistic, historical and social status of Scots. Although a number of paradigms for distinguishing between languages and dialects do exist,...

Cerberus

Oh, they have a special name.

I see.

Matt Эллен

aye

Cerberus

They should just learn English anyway.

Matt Эллен

17:11

:D

Robusto

@MattЭллен Sounds like an attack blog to me.

Scot in OE meant pig. It's where we get the word shoat from. I never was able to link it with Scotland, though, back before the Internetz. Perhaps I should try again now.

Matt Эллен

I keep it on a tight leash, don't worry

Cerberus

I read here that about 1.5 % of all scientific research in the USA is partly fraudulent.

How would they know?

It is concerning.

Matt Эллен

mmmm fraudulicious

Cerberus

To psychology's credit, it was a psychologist who brought this problem to our attention here.

He believes that most fraudulent research is never revealed.

Never busted.

The H-index should be burned.

Matt Эллен

17:19

because people don't redo the research?

Cerberus

We should go back to the old ways.

@MattЭллен That's part of it, yes. They also make up data, etc.

They forge data to come up with conclusions that are "newsworthy" and hence result in a higher H-index number.

ΜετάEd

@Cerberus 82% of all statistics are made up.

Cerberus

@ΜετάEd Yes. But it must be lots.

Science should dump the quantitative approach to awarding funding and positions.

It's wrong.

Intrinsically flawed.

Destructive.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

What journals and academies need to do is provide more support to people who try to replicate research.

Right now most journals won't publish replication studies.

Even if your study is "I tried to do what he said, and couldn't do it, and I really think that's important, because people are treating his study like the word of God"

You'll never be published

Cerberus

Some efforts are now made to that effect.

But still, that's only mitigating some of the symptoms.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

17:31

Once the tradition of replicating studies is reestablished, it will have a dampening effect on fraud

Cerberus

Dampening, yes.

Solving, no.

The way is to remove the cause.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

There are too many causes

Cerberus

Which can be done in part by crippling the motivation of money and position.

ΜετάEd

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 hanson.gmu.edu/gamble.html

Cerberus

By using semi-automatic algorithms, you make it too transparent.

If it becomes harder to predict what effect your "break-through" or "hypothesis-confirming" research will be for your salary and your position, you will be much less motivated to cheat. Keep in mind that this effect is often life-changing: your next project will not get any funding if they don't find your research interesting enough, and you will be unable to pay the rent.

ΜετάEd

17:36

longbets.org

Cerberus

Another measure would therefore be to go back to stable tenures and steady progression, not the dangerous short-term funding and positions of today.

Dixi.

ΜετάEd

The "gamble" link I posted above suggests that academic wagering can solve the problem.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

That gambling thing is very interesting. I wonder if it would work in practice.

I am also concerned about how money could then directly manipulate outcomes.

Cerberus

shakes heads

ΜετάEd

@Cerberus It's sexual if you shake it more than twice.

2

Cerberus

17:59

But I need to shake each head individually!

If I shake only two, there will be bruises.

Luke

0

Q: English SE vandalized by Martians

Here is a screenshot of English SE newest questions tab. Look at the red gibberish (likely Martian handwriting). I refreshed the page and the red text vanished. This is no photoshop! It occurred not five minutes ago. I'm not sure how to tag this besides bug.

bug

Cerberus

@ΜετάEd And who taught you that anyway?

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…