English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room - 2011-03-05 (page 2 of 2)

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3:00 PM

Well, kind of like the Super Bowl or Diana's wedding. Which is to say, the numbers are rigged.

10

Q: "because" vs "since" vs "for" vs "as" vs...?

I am not a native speaker. On a previous question of mine, I thanked for an answer by saying: So the phrase is not an idiom, since it is applied in its literal sense. I consciously chose since over because, because — well, I like that usage of since, even though I know that some (native spe...

word-choice prepositions synonyms

Looks like a jinx to me. Voted to close.

Yeah they are duplicates.

Incidentally, I see that there is no mention of since for facts that are known to the reader v. because for any facts.

Or is there?.

Number of viewers for a spectacle is in inverse proportion to the cultural value of that spectacle.

Speaking of which, I'm looking at the ToS question right now, and it feels like it's sucking the brain out of me.

I know! My private poetry readings for my cat are the most culturally valuable event on the planet.

3:04 PM

@RegDwight Yeah.

I got that feeling to.

Do you think my answer was on track?

I found it hard to explain.

This vgv8 fellow specialize in non sequiturs and garden-path questions.

I have no idea, still can't think clearly... let me see... In the mean time, I pulled a Robusto on that one.

Feb 22 at 1:41, by Robusto

If I were a moderator — and I hasten to add that I'm not and don't want to be — if I saw three close votes on a question I'd bring the hammer down, no question.

You are wise beyond your years, @RegDwight.

Yeah he is a bit weird.

I wonder what he wants.

Is he serious? Trolling?

3:07 PM

Or, as Winston Wolf put it, "Respect for one's elders shows character."

Meh.

I wouldn't call him a troll, wait a sec and I'll find a reference.

Respect for the young shows spirit.

24

A: Can we just get rid of vgv8?

Too long for comment... vgv8 has all the hallmarks of someone completely self-taught, and proud of it. Unfortunately for him, his knowledge is full of holes and misunderstandings and he doesn't have the personality to weather the process of having those hammered out of him without some indignati...

Yeah he is a borderline case: some of his questions are fine in core; but it is strange that he sould refuse to change his style at all even after many people's suggestions.

3:09 PM

@Cerberus — Respect for the young must be earned.

Whoa! psmears has 30 upvotes on his answer to the vgv8 question on meta. I think that's a record!

30

A: Why were my questions on English meaning, usage and grammar closed and deleted?

OK, I'll assume you're asking in good faith, and attempt to explain why I believe these questions were closed. Please do not take this as criticism (it is not intended that way), but please do study it and try to understand why some questions do get closed. Note that I did not vote to close thes...

@Rob: See? That is the wrong mentality! Hehe.

Feb 2 at 14:58, by RegDwight

You don't automatically get mods, either. People have to qualify. It might actually take more time to earn respect than 10k points.

< Feelings of respect for @Cerberus ... starting to wane ... feeing faint ... can this be the end of it?

Wow that is pretty high indeed. I must say his answer was extremely nice and well thought out.

3:11 PM

So, party people, now it's time for some Friends re-runs, and it will be a cold day in hell before my wife will be missing them, so I'm out in a minute or so.

@Rob: Okay at least you won't fall in love with the first 17-y-o blonde that walks by.

Okay have fun!

@Cerberus Well, not unless they're female and attractive ...

I do have my standards, you know.

Feb 22 at 16:32, by RegDwight

Tschö mit Ö! Tschüssikowski! Ciao-Kakao!

You are imagining several blondes to come walking into your office at once, or you don't care whether the blonde be male or female? Or is this a wrong non-native presumption about the meaning of "they"?

"They" it should have been. Brb phone.

It is a loose interpretation of they. The rest of the sentence makes clear the scope.

3:16 PM

Yeah it does (I was joking). But the image I got was fun.

As I say, I do adhere to very strict standards in this regard.

I can see that.

A serious question: I hear people saying such things, like "oh I'd do that young blonde girl/guy any time"; do people usually really mean it, or is it just a conventional remark?

I for one would probably not be serious if I said that.

It depends on the person. Sometimes they're serious, sometimes they're just making conversation.

If they're male they're more likely to mean it, though.

Yeah? Would you usually mean it?

Me personally? You know what a kidder I am.

For the record, I am happily married, and haven't even begun to check out the fine print on my marriage contract.

3:24 PM

Hehe OK.

Hey, @RegDwight, you still here?

Guess not.

Man this feels like Sunday afternoon. I am enjoying Villa-Lobos with a hangover. I wonder why he isn't more popular, his piano works are great afaik.

Usually remembered for his guitar compositions.

He seems to catch my mood so well atm. with basically anything he composed.

Hola, @Kosmonaut.

3:36 PM

Hi.

Do you know what the inversion in this question refers to?

4

Q: Inversion in English

Is it correct to invert the subordinate sentence in English? For instance: When the time comes, so shall we reign the land! If it is correct, what is the rule? Or is it only in old English?

It must be the verb and subject, right?

It's not clear from Stan Rogers's answer either.

@Kosmonaut: I guess he is referring to "so shall we reign".

@Kos Yeah that must be it, don't see any other inversion.

It's actually not hard to come up with other inversion, that's why I was surprised.

You mean any inversion, in other sentences?

No, I mean:

3:39 PM

Inversion of word order, I think.

"So do I."

"Down the hill rolled the ball."

At first I thought he was referring to write the subordinate clause before the main clause.

People can say these things; they aren't archaic.

"She doesn't like that, and nor do I."

Okay, so you mean this sentence is a strange example of this kind of inversion, since it would be easy to find more common examples?

3:40 PM

I think it's just an example of anastrophe.

I was actually surprised just to see the question and answer pair, because I thought I must be missing something.

It's okay if the question-asker didn't think of these examples.

I just didn't want to offer this as an answer and be totally missing the obvious.

It felt to me as though Stan simply answered the question narrowly.

What makes it archaic is the "so shall" ...

Yeah, although I wonder if it would be clear to others, since he doesn't pinpoint what is archaic.

Nothing wrong with that; but some elaboration on inversion etc. would be fitting if you wanted to add anothe answer.

3:42 PM

Otherwise it's simply an ordinary sentence that puts the adverbial phrase in the beginning rather than at the end, probably for emphasis.

Huh?

If you replaced it with "will" it would still be inverted?

Let me reread the entire question.

No, I think it is just that it is more restricted in a different way.

Oh, I didn't notice it's missing an "o'er" ...

When the time comes, we shall reign [o'er] the land!

Like, "down the hill rolled the ball" works because it a directional prepositional phrase.

When the time comes, so shall we reign [o'er] the land!

3:44 PM

It doesn't work if it is not directional.

I think the fact that it is a subordinate clause is contingent and that it is exactly the same as "so do I", as you said.

Or I should say "locative" rather than "directional"

"Through the book read the man" is no good, for example.

But you could say "Through the book the man searched."

Yeah it must be certain kinds of adverbial constituents that create this inversion... so we have "so" and "locative" ones.

@Robusto: "searched the man", to get inversion

Then it breaks down.

3:47 PM

That's a double inversion then.

Well, I was actually only referring to subject-verb inversion.

The man searched through the book => Through the book the man searched => Through the book searched the man.

Actually, the double inversion sounds better.

I'd explain "so" by the strong link it has to its antecedent, I think...

There is probably some context we are missing that makes the "so" work.

The same thing can happen with "as".

But why...

3:49 PM

Something like: "They mock us as they rule, and think not that we have power. But to them I say this: When the time comes, so shall we reign o'er the land!"

@Robusto: Well... it is supposed to be generally much more likely to be acceptable when the phrase is locative.

This stuff is rarely cut-and-dried though.

Fowler I shall consult, see what he has to say.

Not because he is such a great linguist; but he often has great examples and interesting hypotheses.

No. For instance if we make it possessive, the double inversion doesn't work: "Through the book searched the man's daughter."

I don't think Fowler is a way to settle a controversy... :)

"Through the book the man's daughter searched" sounds much more graceful.

3:51 PM

@Cerberus: But if he has some examples, sure. Examples are examples.

Absolutely! But I thought we were rather in the phase of discovery of arguments...

No doubt Fowler will say something about the rhythm of the sentence. Brb.

Fowler is the Great Unopened Tome on my reference shelf. I think I have looked in there twice.

Damn his article on inversion is 9 pages.

In fact, @Robusto, I don't know if the syntacticians would tell me that "through the book" is a bad example because it is still locative.

Really? His style is so great that I find it actually fun to read a book on such a dry subject.

By the way, I think this is similar to "so said he":

"There is nobody here", said he.

3:54 PM

The inversion after quotations is certainly acceptable nowadays.

Technically this is subject-object inversion, but I think we are looking at the same thing.

Right.

How about "Through the possibilities raced his mind." Still locative?

@Robusto: I don't know, but I do know it totally doesn't work! :)

hahaha, agreed.

I mean, certainly the real meaning isn't locative, but metaphorically it certainly is.

3:55 PM

@Kosmonaut Neither does "Colorless green ideas slept furiously," for all you Chomskyites.

I'm not a Chomskyite! I just work alongside some.

By the way, similar inversion happens in Dutch:

Haha, but you are guilty by association!

No it is not exactly the same, never mind.

My mom warned me not to hang around with the wrong crowd.

3:57 PM

It's OK as long as you wash your hands after contact with them.

German is known in syntax as a V2 language, because it puts the main verb second after the first phrase (pretty much) no matter what.

Down the hill rolled the ball. Yesterday saw I the man.

Gone have I to the park.

Isn't it "Gone am I to the park"?

It is, yes.

I suspect that it might also be related to focality...

Yes, the fronted phrase is focused.

Yesterday have I to the park gone. To the park have I yesterday gone. Gone have I yesterday to the park. I have yesterday to the park gone.

4:01 PM

And what about "had I known, I'd have stayed here"? There is some relation to subordination perhaps, just as in Dutch and German.

Ah right, with the subjunctive.

Another good example.

Yes, both past and present.

Be that as it may.

But you could as easily say, "I'd have stayed here had I known."

"had I"

Yes, still with inversion. The inversion is required there, even.

unless you add "if"

4:02 PM

(I feel like being between Yoda-fellows.)

Or you could also say (archaically) "I had stayed here had I known."

(Never seen a Starwars moviel...)

Yoda kind of ruined anastrophe for everyone. Thanks a lot, George Lucas!

Nobody takes it seriously anymore! Gah!

Hey does English have OV inversion?

4:05 PM

Speaking of Star was, is there anybody who is using Dark Vader as gravatar?

@Cerberus: If you count WH-fronting...

Right.

Example?

No wait.

Do you know what I saw?

4:06 PM

How is that OV?

Oh yes

Thanks for that.

"I saw a ship, a ship saw I." OV inversion?

Yes.

I think that one is restricted to poetic usage.

Uh... is that OV inversion + SV inversion, or just one OS inversion?

Actually, that's still SV inversion.

Jinx!

Yay!

4:08 PM

If you are looking for actual SOV order... I am not sure if that shows up in modern English

Did you see the butcher? No, that was the baker you saw.

Nothing comes to mind.

Ship saw I is OVS.

Yeah, I can't think of any either.

Right, @Cerberus, there is also focus.

Good point.

I think that is similar to your WH.

4:09 PM

There is also: "Did you see my friend and his wife?" "Your friend I saw. But not the wife."

Right, that is 100% focus.

The baker saw you. That would be extremely ambiguous at best, and almost certain to be interpreted as the baker seeing you rather than you seeing the baker.

But in my example, it was probably mostly the "that" that did it, just as your WH works.

A cake ate you? Hahahaha.

Well, turnabout's fair play.

@Rob: True... but could something like that happen in a sentence of the type Kos just mentioned?

4:10 PM

@Cerberus: I think most linguists view the "purpose" of WH-movement to be focus. (Probably some of my hardcore syntax theory people would say "no no no, not anymore"... but still.)

@Kos: Ah interesting! That would make for an easier model I think.

In Dutch, you could not say "my friend you saw", but we'd rather use "my friend saw you" with that very function, the way Robusto mentioned.

— I think only in case where something else made it obvious, like rhyme:
*And so he said, "Your friend saw I.
We dined on prawns and pumpkin pie.*

Which is 100% ambiguous in Dutch as well: you need heave focus for justification and heavy context for understanding it.

I think Dutch is also V2 like German, but might not be as strict. I'm not familiar enough with Dutch.

Right, rhyme would be a very strong context.

Hmm V2 means that the verb comes second, period?

4:14 PM

The main verb, in normal clauses — there are special cases, even in German, where it is not done.

But that is the idea.

What is it if the verb comes last, as in Japanese?

I want cake - ik wil cake - ich will Torte(?)

What is it called, I mean.

@Robusto: Verb-final, or SOV

Ah, thanks.

4:15 PM

Most of the world's languages are SOV, I believe.

Yeah might be true.

Japanese definitely is.

So are the Romance languages I believe.

I find it hard to say for Greek because there always so many exceptions that it is hard to tell what the standard pattern is.

Latin is.

Yes.

4:16 PM

French, Spanish, etc. aren't

What no?

Je t'aime?

Ah right, prpnouns are the exception.

Those are clitics... they are special

But I always thought the verb placement didn't matter in Latin. The language is so inflected that word order can be anything.

J'aime mon ami.

Not only enclitics I think?

Hmm...

4:17 PM

@Robusto: Actually, this is true... but most agree on what the default order is. What you are talking about is called scrambling.

You're right, all object pronouns are proclitics.

Often, languages with very explicit case-marking allow scrambling.

Yeah, depending on genre etc.

In regular Latin prose it is quite rare in comparison to poetry.

BTW, the Japanese will occasionally do an inversion. Sushi ga suki da, anata wa [Sushi regarding like is, you as-for.]

We once did the following exercise:

4:19 PM

But they would only add the pronoun if they really felt it necessary.

From a passage of Caesar, say half a page, all endings were replaced with nomoinatives singular and 1st person active present indicative.

We were to supply the right endings and translate.

wals.info/feature/…

I think we had about 95% right, and where we got it wrong it was because of obscure variants of cases or instances where several options were possible.

So word order is still extremely important in Latin prose.

@Robusto: Haha. There we go.

4:22 PM

Ah so SOV wins, by number of languages.

:)

damn gotta run. Bye!

See ya Cerberus

Now that it comes to it, I feel too lazy to answer that question.

Maybe I'll do it later if nobody else does.

Haha, yeah, you left all the energy in chat.

Getting on lunchtime here anyway.

4:25 PM

Ok, mahlzeit!

Are you near the city, or in upstate New York?

Neither

Long Island

Long Island?

Although compared to Syracuse or something, I am near the city.

Stoneybrook, perhaps?

4:27 PM

I don't live there, but it's not far.

Where are you doing your graduate work, if I may ask?

Eh, I would rather email that answer, if you are really curious.

That's all right. Just curious.

You know, the Chomskyites have ears.

I've heard that before.

Well, I'm off to make a sandwich. Talk to you later.

4:31 PM

okay, enjoy. later.

5:05 PM

("Looks at the map, for all the towns between Stoneybrook, and Beth Page.")

By the way, is Woodstock close to the Bronx that famous Woodstock?

5:20 PM

Well, I do have to start looking at who is posting questions before I answer them. I got sucked in by vgv8 again. /sigh

(I wonder why I keep to write Beth Page.)

Then he asks another question later involving the same idea.

Yes; he does that all times.

It's like a movie: after the first, there is always a following movie.

Well, I answered his second with a directive to look at his first question.

@Robusto: Actually, your answer gives a tone to the question.

5:24 PM

What kind of tone?

I mean, without your answer his question would just be one of questions he makes.

We usually say "to give color to something".

Ah, OK, I get you now.

In other words: with your answer, the question turned out to be something more interesting.

Thank you.

Yvw.

Now we can expect his next question: Can you say catch-XX, where XX is a number higher than 33?

5:30 PM

We should start a betting pool.

We could rename us as vgvX, with X higher than 8.

I reserve vgv18 for me.

If that is not available, then I take vgv52, or vgv70.

This is making my head hurt. What is Italian for "headache"?

"Mal di testa".

Wow! So a Ferrari Testarossa means a Ferrari Redhead? hahaha.

Yep.

5:33 PM

That seems so ... anticlimactic.

Red is the color of a Ferrari.

We say also "rosso Ferrari" to mean the color used by Ferrari cars.

You can't get a yellow one?

In Italy you don't find Ferrari cars that are not red. They made a yellow, and black Ferrari just for the American market.

I see. Interesting.

Not that I will be getting a Ferrari anytime soon, you understand.

In Italy, the name of the color used for the Ferrari cars is "rosso Ferrari" (red Ferrari).

5:37 PM

Yes, you just said that. It's kind of a brilliant red.

I don't find Ferrari cars so interesting. I would rather prefer a Porsche.

The only people who drive Ferraris here in the U.S. are, like, movie stars and other rich exhibitionists.

That explains the sense of dejà vou I had.

Same for Maserati and Lamborghini.

In Italy, you cannot get a Ferrari, if you are not already a Ferrari customer.

That makes me wonder how people get a Ferrari.

5:38 PM

Someone said they don't like the Italian cars because they want a car to drive, not sleep with.

Meaning they are excessively curvy and attractive. Not business-like enough, I suppose.

I get they would like them like the ice cream truck.

I guess they mean you cannot get the last Ferrari model, if you were not already a Ferrari customer before.

Mmmmm ... ice cream. My sandwich didn't quite do the trick, but I don't have any ice cream.

user image

Italian ice cream, ice cream, or fudge? :-)

user image

Lamborghini… I have never seem an Alar close enough.

5:42 PM

For me, if it isn't chocolate, it isn't ice cream.

The second pic is a Maserati.

And Ferrari:

user image

I am not updated with Maserati; I just remember the Maserati Bi-turbo.

Don't tell me… that is a Ferrari.

The problem is to understand which model.

It's not a V8.

Now for the relatively businesslike Porsche:

user image

If I watch the outside, I would like a Ferrari; if I watch the inside, I like better a Porsche.

In the U.S. there is really nowhere you can drive one of these up to its potential except on a racetrack.

Lamborghini was famous for its doors.

5:47 PM

Oh, Christ ... here he goes again ...

0

Q: How would you substitute English vulgar words in foreign phrases?

Subquestioning "Substitute for F*** in emphasizing disbelief, anger, etc": How would you substitute the vulgar English word in foreign phrases like in: 1) brand name: "Fucking beer"? or 2)in village name

usage synonyms colloquial catch-phrases vulgar

This guy definitely needs a friend or a dog or a hobby.

It should be so here too, but there are crazy going on high speed on highways.

I would opt for all of them.

I can pass on his questions, but not his abuse of tags.

Why did he tag the last question with "catch-phrase"?

I have no idea.

I guess he does have no idea too.

He's asked 50 questions on this board already. I wonder if there's a place to sort users by number of questions asked. I bet he is in the 99th percentile.

Hmm, I wonder why this answer of mine got downvoted:

-1

A: What does ‘Adjusts playbook with a pencil, not a sharpie’ mean?

It means he is making very precise adjustments. A pencil has a much finer point than does a Sharpie.

I stand by the answer even now.

Now you are not to −1 anymore. :-)

It seems a possible answer, to me.

5:59 PM

Haha, thank you.

@Robusto I think that quote is using the analogy in a somewhat disparaging way. A pencil having a finer point than a sharpie is a good thing, so this interpretation doesn't really match the usage.

Another county heard from.

Hmm ... I could have said fastidious instead of precise ... but I think the meaning is clear enough.

From your interest I'd guess it was you or your sister who downvoted me. :P
Not a problem, though. I can handle it.

I don't downvote an answer or a question unless it is unequivocally wrong, in my estimation.

Maybe I'm too stingy with the downvotes, IDK.

I would rather up votes the other questions, if I think one is less plausible.

Word.

Wow, here's a strange one:

-2

A: What is a "Mexican Ultimatum"?

A mexican is any person born in Mexico. I was born in the USA I am an American.

[Shakes head, laughing to himself.]

It's like to reply "Italian is any person born in Italy" to a question like "what is an Italian sausage?"

6:09 PM

@Robusto Nope, not me, and my sister hasn't downvoted anything yet.

And then adding "I was born in the USA I am an American." In case you thought I was a sausage of some kind.

@Martha — Just messin' with ya, @Martha. I haven't been thwacked much lately and I kind of miss it.

@Robusto Good point. :-)

Just give me a reason, and I'd be happy to oblige.

@Martha — Has to be a pun, huh?

I'm nibbling my niece's ear, so I'm happy to do just about anything at the moment.

Typing one-handed is a bit of a drag, though.

6:14 PM

That poor thing isn't going to have any ears left by the time she gets to kindergarten.

That's the best part of baby ears: they grow back instantaneously.

But the psychological damage of having no ears, even for a split second, can be permanent.

That reminds me of when my father cut my hair, and cut my ear too.

She's telling us a story. Anyone have a 7-month-old to English dictionary handy?

But but but but, her mommy stole her! It's not fair! (Although it does make my typing exponentially faster.)

Moms are like that. Yeah, they are!

Now I gotta go to the dump. /sigh

TTYL

6:19 PM

I thought you didn't like throwing anything away?

6:40 PM

Grrr. Am I being dissed here or what? (@_@)

4

Q: What does it mean to show reversed two fingers?

I saw it in some british show and it looked to be offensive. Signs are part of language and I don't understand that one, please explain.

british-english signage

7:35 PM

Another headscratcher:

0

Q: What does "country fellows" actually mean?

I searched on Internet for country fellows, but everybody is calling someone and couldn't find definition. What is the origin and the real meaning of country fellows?

usage meaning slang

Nobody home? That's, like, no fun. Like, at all. I'm out!

8:14 PM

no, please, come back! I'm here!

1 hour later…

9:37 PM

@Fx Well, here I am. For like 20 minutes.

10:15 PM

And now I'm out. When I come back, I expect a 200-word essay from @Robusto on how he did, in fact, have to look up cub. Spill the beans, sir, whom are you trying to fool‽‽‽

Oh, and @Kosmonaut: should we close this one as a dupe?

1

Q: Multiple compound words

Hello, I'm a non-native English speaker and I'm writing a scientific paper about biometric identification based on heart sounds. In this context, is the following phrase correct? Comparison of recent articles on heart sounds-based biometrics. I am using it as a caption for a table.

hyphen compounds

11:02 PM

@RegDwight — Awww, you caught me. How's about I just spray-paint Romani ite domum 100 times on walls in the forum?

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