English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

01:22

@Robusto Oh, yes, I read about that, too.

CowperKettle

06:59

-14°C

CowperKettle

07:15

I've run 100 km in the first 9 days of the year

A blacksmith's house near lake Shartash

You can see a large fantastic birdlike creature of metal to the left of the lamp

M.A.R.

10:22

@Mitch I feel like @Matt is constantly enjoying meals in chat. Or is that someone else

CowperKettle

15:21

Copenhagen

Mitch

yesterday, by Mitch

I will look at this later and have absolutely no idea what is going on.

CowperKettle

I would demolish some, and make parks for children to play

Mitch

15:44

Haussmann's renovation of Paris

Haussmann's renovation of Paris was a vast public works programme commissioned by Emperor Napoleon III and directed by his prefect of Seine, Georges-Eugène Haussmann, between 1853 and 1870. It included the demolition of medieval neighbourhoods that were deemed overcrowded and unhealthy by officials at the time; the building of wide avenues; new parks and squares; the annexation of the suburbs surrounding Paris; and the construction of new sewers, fountains and aqueducts. Haussmann's work was met with fierce opposition, and he was finally dismissed by Napoleon III in 1870; but work on his projects...

Mitch

15:58

@CowperKettle where in Copenhagen is that? Google maps did not lend itself well to searching for 15 parallel streets (I looked and could't find any around Copenhagen).

CowperKettle

Composers' Quarter, Copenhagen

The Composers' Quarter (Danish: Komponistkvarteret or Komponistbyen) or Strandvej Quarter (Danish: Strandvejskvarteret), confusingly also known as the Kildevæld Quarter, or the Svanemølle Quarter (Danish: Svanemøllekvarteret), is an enclave of terraced houses located just west of Svanemøllen Station, between Østerbrogade and Kildevækd Park, in the Østerbro district of Copenhagen, Denmark. Most of the streets in the area are named after Danish or Nordic composers. The 393 townhouses were originally built by the Workers' Building Society (Danish: Arbejdernes Byggeforening) to provide affordable...

google.com/maps/place/…

google.com/maps/@55.7140124,12.5750315,3a,75y,171.25h,90t/…

Not as bad as it looked on the panoramic photo

Cute bicycle

tchrist

16:39

Estilo pombalino

O estilo pombalino é um estilo arquitetônico português do século XVIII, batizado em homenagem a Sebastião José de Carvalho e Melo, o primeiro marquês de Pombal, que foi fundamental na reconstrução de Lisboa após o sismo de 1755. Pombal supervisionou os planos elaborados pelos engenheiros militares Manuel da Maia, Eugénio dos Santos e Elias Sebastian Pope (posteriormente sucedido por Carlos Mardel). A malha urbana medieval e orgânica da cidade (principalmente a área da Baixa, agora denominada Baixa Pombalina) foi substituída por um plano de grade com estradas e pavimentos largos, que tinha como...

CowperKettle

17:11

Interesting that there is no interwikis

Only the article in Spanish

In Portuguese

Once I wrote a Wikipedia article about a Spanish doctor who invented corneal transplantation. He used a square patch of a donor's cornea for the operation at first, and no general anesthesia. It was quite an experience for his patients.

> Samuel Bigger, 1837, reported successful corneal transplantation in a gazelle.

In the 19th century Russia surgeons also tried it on animals, with bad results, sadly.

> British and French soldiers engaged in the Egyptian campaigns of the Napoleonic wars (1789-1799) contracted trachoma and subsequently introduced it into the ‘crowded tenements of Europe’ on their return from service. This disease was responsible for the establishment of ophthalmology as the first of the surgical subspecialties and provided the stimulus for the foundation of Moorfields Eye Hospital, London, in 1817.

So Napoleonic wars helped to create eye surgery, because multitudes of soldiers went blind.

Surgical repair after trachoma, WWII.

Mitch

18:09

@CowperKettle "Hold still!" "No, you!"

Mitch

20:31

@CowperKettle Yeah, looks actually kinda nice. also, it is a very very small development, 5 short blocks by 2 long blocks, tree lined, park nearby.

tchrist

@CowperKettle Well, it has English, Italian, French, and even Russian versions, but they lack detail.

Mitch

@tchrist I haven't tried it with this article, but sometimes it is fun to see the 'other' language article and notice the content differences.

@tchrist Was the Haussman style patterned after l'estilo pombalino?

tchrist

@Mitch You tell me!

@Mitch Your personal saviour brooks no Negro banning ideas. Does that mean he's not all wet?

Mitch

20:52

@tchrist danged if I know. looking at maps and pictures, no not really, they aren't really the same. I was just wondering why you linked to the rebuilding of Lisbon.

@tchrist I was just reading that right before you posted that

I agree with him that 'negro' doesn't 'feel' taboo (rather it is very dated), but it is also obvious that the sociological trend is Logically leads to dropping it.

but that seems somewhat ... childish? in that it seems like 'teenager-simplistic-outrage' thinking.

tchrist

@Mitch Welcome to the purityrannical left.

Of course it's childish. We've let the misplaced language outrages of simplistic teenagers who don't know squat about life tell us what to do.

Mitch

@tchrist I tend to use the term 'stalinist'

tchrist

@EdwinAshworth Even though your steel bridge is obviously both shinier and newer than mine, yours still doesn't strike me as being especially "steeler" than mine. It fact, yours seems a little rocky if you ask me. But I do agree that both are steely enough not to be easily stolen. — tchrist ♦ 7 mins ago

More stalinistica.

> In cities hit early by Omicron, Covid deaths have begun to spike: Death trends are sharply up in these three cities but are not approaching last winter’s peaks quite as fast as increasing case rates. The chart ［above］ shows death rates shifted by three weeks to allow a clearer comparison of the peaks and dips in cases and deaths.

So much for that idea.

@Robusto So the hospitalizations and deaths are tracking as before, just a little less extremely.

It's going to be another long, cold, lonely winter.

tchrist

21:55

> A 3% surcharge is added to all orders to accommodate wage increases.

Damn it. Fake prices again.

Cerberus

@tchrist: I think what you are trying to say is that the most important, or an extremely important, criterion by which adjectives are defined is that it should be possible to make comparatives of them. But is that truly the deciding criterion? Isn't there some other, more important one? Don't other adjectives exist which cannot have comparatives? Or are those existenter / more existent? — Cerberus_Reinstate_Monica 35 secs ago

M.A.R.

You guys are having a battle of wits in the comments, then linking them in chat?

Cerberus

@tchrist Hmm it remains to be seen how much lower the number of deaths per infection shall be.

M.A.R.

@Cerberus I don't think we've concluded that it's really less severe than other strains

Or uh, have we?

If I'm not mistaken "it's less severe" is the observation in some ICU wards, not the result of rigorous research

Cerberus

22:10

@M.A.R. Hey, it's Sunday.

@M.A.R. Perhaps 'concluded' is a strong word.

But more and more information seems to indicate that an infection is substantially less lethal?

M.A.R.

So one interfering factor in South Africa, for example, is that in a surge there is a larger portion of younger people who respond better to therapies etc.

Cerberus

Any study should take that into account in its conclusions.

I would assume that it did?

Correct for age.

M.A.R.

I'm saying I don't think it was based on good research

Just what the doctors observed in ICU wards

Might as well be false hopes

Cerberus

I think what we have now is more than mere anecdotal observations?

M.A.R.

Maybe, dunno

So hard to keep up, with diminishing returns

Cerberus

22:14

I just read whatever the papers and this chat room have to say.

M.A.R.

Another preliminary study that isn't yet peer-reviewed I think, or maybe it is by now, was that reinfection with the same strain was higher with Omicron

Well I wish people stop doing that, but mostly it's the lack of professionalism on behalf of news agencies

Can't trust data fresh baked out of the oven

Cerberus

I don't know, the paper I read seems reliable enough?

M.A.R.

@Cerberus well another study might come along that draws different conclusions. Then a couple more. Then they come around and find some of the studies to be more reliable, with regards to controls and blinding and all that, and then do meta-analyzes and what-not, and then something resembling a conclusion appears in the horizon

The thing with chloroquine was so confusing because of that.

Cerberus

@M.A.R. Sure, but a good newspaper tells you how reliable any info is that they publish.

M.A.R.

@Cerberus What a good newspaper considers reliable is not what is considered established in the field

Cerberus

22:20

It will interview several different, reliable scientists to assess what conclusions can be drawn from the studies the paper reports on.

@M.A.R. Why not?

The newspaper itself doesn't draw any conclusions.

M.A.R.

@Cerberus I think it's just really difficult to be "right". It doesn't help that 1) official agencies (CDC, FDA etc.) sometimes lag behind, 2) The standards are really different between doctors and between subjects. Sometimes it's "only what the CDC says" sometimes "it's worked since the 80s" 3) despite all the guidelines and rules and stuff sometimes they just stick to whatever they have in mind. For example, useless antibiotic therapy (like with azithromycin) is probably still part of the

standard Covid treatment protocol.

Some studies develop the theory, some studies show the stats, and assuming these are done right, the bridge between the theory and the results is sometimes really difficult to build

Cerberus

Well, you can do justice to whatever information you have, and ask experts. Then present everything you have.

Let readers know how inconclusive the information is.

That's what a good newspaper does.

M.A.R.

What I'm saying is it takes more than a few really good papers to 'correct course'

Cerberus

I'm a bit confused.

Maybe you're assuming things, about what this newspaper does.

M.A.R.

@Cerberus It takes some expertise to know how trustworthy a paper is, and neither the journalists nor the average reader possess that expertise, except scientific journals

@Cerberus I'm generalizing, not talking about any specific newspaper

tchrist

22:31

@Cerberus I'm trying to use an adverb on an adjective. How hard can that be?

M.A.R.

Buuut I don't think there are many exceptions to what I'm saying beyond scientific journals

Cerberus

@M.A.R. As I said, they will consult leading scientists in the field, interview them about whatever publication they report on.

You will often see the article published in the form of an interview with multiple scientists, with some background information.

M.A.R.

Of course. Still an impossible leap from "what might be" to "what is", which the readers take

Cerberus

The conclusion is often, "we don't know, but some signs are pointing in this or that direction".

M.A.R.

And in the case of Covid, it sometimes becomes nasty

Cerberus

22:34

@M.A.R. How could readers possibly do that, when the paper clearly says "there is no definite conclusion, nor anything close to one"?

M.A.R.

@Cerberus well they do it; "vitamin C does this and that"

Cerberus

I can't really follow your argument, but perhaps it doesn't matter.

We agree that nothing definite is known yet about the new variant.

M.A.R.

@Cerberus So my objection is that if too many people are going to draw conclusions about a subject like Covid, regardless of what the scientists might say about the matter, based on "might be"s, then why report a half-assed finding at all?

It aims to inform but it instead confuses.

tchrist

Can't we just agree that nothing known is definite yet about the new variant?

M.A.R.

Don't say "study finds broccoli prevents brain cancer" until we know for sure, because no matter how many times you say it's just preliminary and stuff, people will invade grocery stores

Cerberus

22:39

@M.A.R. Because some information is better than none.

@M.A.R. A strange assumption.

@M.A.R. Well, that would be terrible reporting, yes.

A blameworthy title.

But I have not really seen such titles in my newspaper about a subject as serious as this.

They do it about broccoli-like stuff, which is despicable, as you say.

M.A.R.

@Cerberus Take vaccine and treatment effectiveness for example. It's always reported in the newspapers as a percentage, and they're going to vary with each study and each analysis, and they actually use at least four different references to compare resistance to treatment in different strains. New developments and better designed studies come along with different findings and no one keeps track because everyone is confused

Cerberus

@M.A.R. How do you mean, noöne keeps track?

Newspapers have published new percentages for the same vaccine countless times.

M.A.R.

While saying "vaccines are less effective than before with the delta variant" is informative, nothing else about these news reports makes any sense

Cerberus

And they always hedge where possible/needed.

Perhaps you and I see different reports.

M.A.R.

Might be

Post-examen fever

Cerberus

22:47

Perhaps we are at a point where the discussion is less efficient without concrete examples?

M.A.R.

It's after a difficult exam and I'm just ranting

Cerberus

I mean, I'm sure what you describe happens.

M.A.R.

@Cerberus I guess. We're mostly talking past each other

Cerberus

Talking about newspaper articles that we do not have on hand to compare.

@M.A.R. Did it go well?

(enough)?

M.A.R.

Uh, maybe a bit below well enough

Cerberus

22:54

Hmm.

M.A.R.

But still not something to entirely ruin the day. It helps that almost everyone else did worse than me

Cerberus

Can you retake it later?

Ah, good.

M.A.R.

Better to be on the pile of dung than swimming in it, amirite

@Cerberus Nope, probably wouldn't want to

Slept two hours last night, and four after the exam

How was your day?

Cerberus

Hmm.

I hope you can get enough sleep tonight.

M.A.R.

Just hmm? OK

Cerberus

22:57

It's already 2 AM, isn't it? Or even 3?

M.A.R.

@Cerberus Thanks

Cerberus

Nothing much happened here.

M.A.R.

@Cerberus 2:30, yeah

Cerberus

Of course, the average.

M.A.R.

@Cerberus life isn't fair

Stares into the horizon

Cerberus

22:58

@M.A.R. What's unfair about nothing much?

I see no horizon.

Just buildings.

If I looked out the window.

M.A.R.

@Cerberus North Korea apparently shifted 15 minutes just to be different, I dunno about ours

Cerberus

So, more accurately, I see my computer screens.

M.A.R.

Bangladesh is also 45 minutes or 15 minutes different

Cerberus

@M.A.R. Hip.

M.A.R.

Other country minutiae: Myanmar is the only other country with the US imperial units, I think

What became of the coup, I wonder

Most of the really evil stuff happens when the spotlight is on something else.

I wonder how many things the politicians have gotten away with thanks to Covid

Cerberus

23:02

@M.A.R. I know. For certain units.

M.A.R.

Well, Biden has comfortably done next to nothing

Cerberus

@M.A.R. A guerilla, basically.

The army took control and is now involved in a guerilla.

M.A.R.

Apes together strong

Cerberus

@M.A.R. Nothing about what?

M.A.R.

@Cerberus I dunno, they made some fuss about some infrastructure thing, but I think nothing came of it?

Cerberus

23:04

I'm sure he got various laws passed.

M.A.R.

He only reversed a couple of the stupidest decisions, like the seven Muslim countries ban thing

Cerberus

govtrack.us/congress/members/joseph_biden/300008

> President Joe Biden signed the more than $1 trillion bipartisan infrastructure bill into law on Monday, checking off the first piece of his party's sprawling economic agenda.

This was in November.

tchrist

> Nathan Chen wins sixth straight men’s U.S. figure skating championship.

What a coward! He's just afraid to face Adam Rippon, Tim Goebel, Johnny Weir, Brian Boitano, Ryan O’Meara, or Matthew Savoie.

Cerberus

Perhaps he plays in both groups.

M.A.R.

Figure staking?

Is it like skating on ice without the ice?

tchrist

23:10

Has ice.

M.A.R.

So what do they do?

tchrist

It's like hockey. The ice is built right into it.

M.A.R.

They pose like models or dance or something else?

tchrist

They skate on ice while showing off their girlish figures.

M.A.R.

Aha

tchrist

23:12

Figure skating

Figure skating is a sport in which individuals, pairs, or groups perform on figure skates on ice. It was the first winter sport to be included in the Olympic Games, when contested at the 1908 Olympics in London. The Olympic disciplines are men's singles, women's singles, pair skating, and ice dance; the four individual disciplines are also combined into a team event, first included in the Winter Olympics in 2014. The non-Olympic disciplines include synchronized skating, Theater on Ice, and four skating. From intermediate through senior-level competition, skaters generally perform two programs...

M.A.R.

So Will Ferrell's was figure skating?

tchrist

> The name "figure" skating arises from the compulsory portion of the competition, dropped in the 1990s, requiring skaters to trace out precise figures on the ice, including perfect figure 8 circles.

@M.A.R. Yes.

M.A.R.

So it's the same as ice skating

tchrist

Yes, certainly.

@Cerberus That seems like cheating.

M.A.R.

I'm just a bit dense right now

Cerberus

23:15

@tchrist I suspect many more cheat than we know.

tchrist

@Cerberus Apparently it's rampant there. There are many more I didn't list, and more than that whom I'm unaware of.

Cerberus

Did you list any who are of both ways?

tchrist

Jason Brown is a U.S. National Champion who will be in the 2022 Olympics.

@Cerberus Perhaps. These things are rather slippery you know.

Cerberus

Exactly.

But I think there are many, many more than most people suspect.

tchrist

Apparently it's touted as the "gayest sport (in America)", one that puts even hairdressers to shame. theguardian.com/sport/2018/feb/17/…

Better: Why Is The World's Gayest Sport Stuck In The Closet?

Apparently, you have to keep mum or they'll downvote you.

@M.A.R. "Until the early 1900s, figure skating was mostly a way for wealthy men to show off their aristocratic grace and ample spare time by skating elegant figures and positions on the ice."

> Olympic figure skater Nathan Chen has apologised after giving an “ignorant” remark about the sport being “homosexual-dominated”.

Ignorant, or informed? Your call.

> “I recently did an interview where I was asked if people ever ask me why I don’t play hockey because of the connotation that skating is quote-unquote feminine and hockey is quote-unquote masculine. I gave an ignorant response to the question and I want to apologise for that,” he said.

“In that moment I had the opportunity to shut down the perception that there is such a thing as a masculine or feminine sport and to shed light that these perceptions have created an environment that make it unsafe, stigmatising and even career-ending for athletes to come out.

Cerberus

23:45

@tchrist I don't see why it should be ignorant. Informed or insensitive, perhaps.

tchrist

@Cerberus Mostly he missed an opportunity to put down the nonsense that any sport is inherently masculine or inherently feminine.

Cerberus

@tchrist That is a rather excessive reaction.

@tchrist Yes, but that miss is no big deal.

It doesn't matter.

tchrist

No, it doesn't.

Cerberus

Words aren't magic.

3

tchrist

I don't know why he took so much flak.

Cerberus

23:48

My advice remains the same as always.

tchrist

It's not like Synchronized Newborn-Nursing is an Olympic sport. That one does seem inherently feminine, but I'm old-fashioned in that way.

Cerberus

Ignore this stuff.

Don't talk about it, don't read about it.

Fuelling the flames is just what they like.

tchrist

It was that crash-blossom headline from the Washington Post about him that took me there.

They really should know better.

Cerberus

I skip stupid headlines about gossip, pop culture, and other nonsense.

They should, but they don't.

tchrist

Then they need better editors.

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