English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

tchrist

00:00

@Mitch Yes, it's in the OED2 CD.

They haven't updated the online versions for OED3 yet.

> There was no answer but a soft hiss, as of intaken breath.

> But I do not think you are holden to go to Cirith Ungol, of which he has told you less than he knows. That much I perceived clearly in his mind. Do not go to Cirith Ungol!

> We can bide our time, we can keep our thoughts in our hearts, deploring maybe evils done by the way, but approving the high and ultimate purpose: Knowledge, Rule, Order; all the things that we have so far striven in vain to accomplish, hindered rather than helped by our weak or idle friends. There need not be, there would not be, any real change in our designs, only in our means.

> Eärendil found not Tuor nor Idril, nor came he ever on that journey to the shores of Valinor, defeated by shadows and enchantment, driven by repelling winds, until in longing for Elwing he turned homeward towards the coast of Beleriand. And his heart bade him haste, for a sudden fear had fallen on him out of dreams; and the winds that before he had striven with might not now bear him back as swift as his desire.

> Nine ships there were: four for Elendil, and for Isildur three, and for Anárion two; and they fled before the black gale out of the twilight of doom into the darkness of the world. And the deeps rose beneath them in towering anger, and waves like unto mountains moving with great caps of writhen snow bore them up amid the wreckage of the clouds, and after many days cast them away upon the shores of Middle-earth.

> They lit a fire in a hollow, down among the roots of a spreading hawthorn, tall as a tree, writhen with age; but hale in every limb. Buds were swelling at each twig's tip.

He doesn't really use any old-style forms The Lord of the Rings, and very few in his older works posthumously empublished.

Except for those very, very old bits of his writing that were written in what CRRT calls "the archaic mode".

Such as his earliest drafts of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin, or of that city's fall.

Like this:

> Morn was it when they reached the hither bank and high noon saw them
yet passing in long-strung lines and wading slowly the shallow places of
the swift-running stream. Here doth it widen out and fare down narrow
channels filled with boulders atween long spits of shingle and stones less
great. Now did Naugladur slip from his burdened horse and prepare to
get him over, for the armed host of the vanguard had climbed already the
further bank, and it was great and sheer and thick with trees, and the

That's old-style.

"Here doth it widen out and fare down narrow channels"

> Then did he unloose the necklace, and he gazed in wonder at it -and
beheld the Silmaril, even the jewel he won from Angband and gained
undying glory by his deed; and he said: “Never have mine eyes beheld
thee O Lamp of Faery burn one half so fair as now thou dost, set in gold
and gems and the magic of the Dwarves”; and that necklace he caused to
be washed of its stains, and he cast it not away, knowing nought of its
power, but bore it with him back into the woods of Hithlum.

tchrist

00:34

> After seven journeys lo! sleep took them
on a night of stars when they nigh had stridden
to those lands beloved that long had known
Funding aforetime. At first morning
the white arrows of the wheeling sun
gazed down gladly on green hollows
and smiling slopes that swept before them.

> Only Gandalf had shaken his head and said nothing. Dwarves had not passed that way for many years, but Gandalf had, and he knew how evil and danger had grown and thriven in the Wild, since the dragons had driven men from the lands, and the goblins had spread in secret after the battle of the Mines of Moria.

Just a few of the older past participles.

In olden days when danger had thriven and dragons had driven.

> Some I am told listen to the complaints of those that are punished or chidden, and hear their tales and feign to take their part, and this seems to me a quaint and merry service.

Fie on those punished or chidden.

> In a cup outcarven on the cold hillside,
whose broken brink was bleakly fringed
with bended bushes bowed in anguish
from the North-wind's knife, beneath them far
the feasting camp of their foes was laid;
the fiery flare of fuming torches,
and black bodies in the blaze they saw
crossing countlessly, and cries they heard
and the hollow howling of hungry wolves.

"outcarven"

> All about them as they lay hung the darkness, hollow and immense, and they were oppressed by the loneliness and vastness of the dolven halls and endlessly branching stairs and passages. The wildest imaginings that dark rumour had ever suggested to the hobbits fell altogether short of the actual dread and wonder of Moria.

"dolven"

> No blade would bite on the bonds he wore,
though Funding felt for the forged knife
of dwarfen steel, his dagger prized,
that at waist he wore awake or sleeping,
whose edge would eat through iron noiseless
as a clod of clay is cleft by the share.

"dwarfen" is not a past participle. :)

Here's proof that he used "elven-" not as an adjective but as a genitive plural noun:

Elven-birds      elven-glass      elven-lore       elven-sight
elven-blade      elven-grace      Elven-lore       Elven-sight
elven-blood      elven-grey       elven-maid       elven-smiths
Elven-blood      Elven-halls      Elven-maid       Elven-smiths
elven-boat       elven-harpers    elven-maids      elven-song
Elven-boat       elven-hoods      Elven-maids      elven-speech
elven-bow        elven-horns      elven-mail       Elven-speech
elven-bows       Elven-host       elven-men        Elven-stars

Mitch

00:49

I feel like maybe he missed some

tchrist

So those are all "The X of the Elves" except maybe for elven-fair and elven-wise.

Mitch

so:

hobbits = shropshire
dwarves = jews

tchrist

Tsk, but yes, I see you listened.

Here are the singulars:

elf-armour    elf-fountains Elf-lady      Elf-matd      Elf-spett
Elf-armour    elf-friend    Elf-lands     elf-men       elf-stone
elf-banes     Elf-friend    elf-languages elf-name      Elf-stone
elf-cake      elf-friends   Elf-languages Elf-name      Elf-strain
elf-caves     Elf-friends   elf-latin     elf-prince    elf-sword
elf-child     elf-guards    Elf-latin     Elf-prince    elf-tongue
Elf-child     Elf-haven     Elf-Latin     elf-princes   Elf-tongue
elf-children  Elf-havens    elf-letters   elf-queen     Elf-tower

Elf-way, Elven-way.

@Mitch Remember what he said to the Nazi!!

> In the unsent letter, Tolkien made the point that "Aryan" was a linguistic term, denoting speakers of Indo-Iranian languages, and stated that "if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people."

Mitch

@tchrist I thought that was Charlie Chaplin who said that

bad old edit

hobbits = shropshire
dwarves = jews
men = ??
elves = finns?
orcs = saxons

tchrist

@Mitch Harry Chapin or Woody Guthrie?

@Mitch No, the Rohirrim were the Saxon calques.

Mitch

00:55

good saxons?

tchrist

But had they lived on a fertile savannah.

Mitch

anglo saxons

tchrist

No such thing.

Mitch

sure

tchrist

There were Anglish and there were Saxons, there were Yutes and there were Fritzes.

Or whatever they called the lowland invaders.

Mitch

00:57

Yutes? Yutes? Oh... Youths!

tchrist

Frieslanders?

Mitch

I can't keep them all straight

tchrist

The Yutes were the Éotas, the Jootes.

Jutes

The Jutes (), Iuti, or Iutæ (Danish: Jyde, Old English: Ēotas) were one of the Anglo-Saxon tribes who settled in England after the departure of the Romans. According to Bede, they were one of the three most powerful Germanic nations. The Jutes are believed to have originated from what is now the Jutland Peninsula (called Iutum in Latin) and part of the North Frisian coast, consisting of the mainland of Denmark, Southern Schleswig (Germany) and North Frisia (Germany). The Jutes invaded and settled in southern Britain in the late fourth century during the Migration period, as part of a larger wave...

Oh they were the Fritzen then.

Iuti.

From the Jutting Land.

Where the wild strawberries bloom.

Mitch

so they were from the area of Denmark but not North German Danes?

tchrist

I thought Frisian was Dutch?

So confuse.

Mitch

01:01

no I'm pretty sure that though the Frisians and Dutch are pretty close... Frisians were...

tchrist

Mitch

Dutch were old low franconian

tchrist

old?

Frenkies?

Mitch

I think yes.

tchrist

Frenkles.

Robusto

01:01

Frisian is supposedly the closest language to English.

tchrist

I've never come to peace with the whole Frankish bit.

Mitch

and plattdeutsch was neither frisian nor dutch (though all obviously west Germanic with German and Hoch Deutsch

Cerberus

@Mitch Actually, we're where Frisians, Saxons, and Franks mingled.

tchrist

> One rhyme demonstrates the palpable similarity between Frisian and English: "Butter, bread and green cheese is good English and good Frisian," which is pronounced more or less the same in both languages (West Frisian: "Bûter, brea en griene tsiis is goed Ingelsk en goed Frysk.")

Cerberus

Or not mingled.

tchrist

01:03

Frysk!

Robusto

The Sound of the Frisian language (Numbers, Greetings, Words & Sample Text)

►

Decide for yourself.

Mitch

@Robusto I love that series

tchrist

Franks are most apt to mingle at the hot-dog stand.

Robusto

It sounds no farther off than Scots.

tchrist

Lalland not High.

Mitch

01:04

scots is pretty...distinct

Cerberus

I didn't know Frisian was still spoken in Denmark.

tchrist

Lalland Scots is a Germanic tongue, Highlander a Keltic one.

Pardon me, low-land escotch.

Mitch

I'm surprised French is so Romance, given Charlemagne (or his court) spoke precursor to Dutch.

Cerberus

Escotch, escutcheon?

Robusto

@tchrist I was thinking of the Border country, including both Scots & English.

Cerberus

01:05

France is not the successor to Charlemagne's empire!!

tchrist

Frisian languages

The Frisian (, ) languages are a closely related group of West Germanic languages, spoken by about 500,000 Frisian people, who live on the southern fringes of the North Sea in the Netherlands and Germany. The Frisian languages are the closest living language group to the Anglic languages; the two groups make up the Anglo-Frisian languages group and together with the Low German dialects these form the North Sea Germanic languages. However, modern English and Frisian are not mutually intelligible, nor are Frisian languages intelligible among themselves, due to independent linguistic innovations and...

@Cerberus Don't tell them that. :)

Cerberus

Don't believe that drivel.

tchrist

Then let us pity poor Orlando at Roncesvalles.

Mitch

@Cerberus well...

not all of it

tchrist

Or whatever that is in Frankish.

Robusto

01:07

@Cerberus Then shouldn't you be calling him Carolus Magnus, not Charlemagne?

tchrist

Chanson de Roland

La Chanson de Roland est un poème épique et une chanson de geste du XIe siècle attribuée parfois, sans certitude, à Turold (la dernière ligne du manuscrit dit : Ci falt la geste que Turoldus declinet). Neuf manuscrits nous sont parvenus, dont un, le manuscrit d'Oxford du début du XIIe siècle, le plus ancien et le plus complet, est en anglo-normand. Ce dernier, identifié en 1835, est considéré par les historiens comme le manuscrit d'autorité. C'est donc lui que l'on désigne quand on parle sans autre précision de la Chanson de Roland. La Chanson de Roland comporte 4 002 vers (dans sa version la…

"Roland" just isn't half so cool as "Orlando".

Cerberus

@Robusto Oops!

Stupid English.

In Dutch, we call him Karel de Grote.

Robusto

That's why we go over this stuff.

tchrist

@Cerberus Big Chuck?

Robusto

Indeed.

Cerberus

01:22

I suppose so.

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Repeating characters in title (65): Grammar items helpppppppppppppppppppppppppp by Ture Ture on english.SE

Robusto

01:43

> Gregorian Champ the title bestowed upon the monk who can hold a note the longest.

Cerberus

@tchrist Different, though not so very different.

Tolkien slurs his speech a bit.

Interesting interview.

As things problematic to historical continuity, he mentions tobacco and...bellows.

tchrist

01:57

@Cerberus Hemumbleseven.

Cerberus

@tchrist Indeed.

And he speaks fast.

There are a few words here and there which I must let pass.

tchrist

Heh.

Yeah, it ran blurry now and then.

Sometimes I despair of non-Germanic ESL students ever learning real English. Their source materials are so fictitious in presentation of actual English.

0

A: "You'll be hoping for a bit more from the new player, I suppose." Why the future continuous?

This is not the future tense Given your: You will be hoping for a bit more from the new player, I suppose. It is critical that one understand that there is nothing whatsoever in that sentence that is in any way “in the future”. It’s all right now, and indeed is all in the present tense where an...

Cerberus

They manage eventually.

tchrist

Should I just give up?

It is not saying that "I predict that in future times, you are going to hope a bit more from the new player then."

I wonder whether he's Russian. Russian uses several curious ways to express the future.

I should mutter placid placations of future placebos. :)

I know they all get taught in their ESL books that "will be VERBing" is the "future continuous". It often does no harm. But it seems especially problematic here.

I know you'll be disagreeing with my tone. I'm sorry, and welcome your improvements.

Cerberus

Now, be fair.

tchrist

02:05

jinx

Cerberus

Hah.

Will is generally associated with the future, but it has other uses.

Is how I would put it to that asker.

tchrist

It does. And ESL students never get taught those.

Cerberus

Are you sure?

I think we did in high school.

tchrist

Not at all.

Cerberus

I think we learned will could be used for habits and volitions as well.

tchrist

02:07

Yes, but you're a native Dutch speaker. No future tense there either,.

Right, like "Will you please help?"

I have to go on long errands, picking up curbside stuff.

Cerberus

Yes.

Adios!

@tchrist Oh, I see now the video has subtitles.

CowperKettle

Word of the day: sucking chest wound

Cerberus

But I'm already halfway through; I will do without them.

(Will can also express a promise.)

(Which is not too different from describing the future.)

CowperKettle

02:28

Robusto

@CowperKettle What's funny is that the graphic is in the style of the Bayeux Tapestry (c. 1100, well before Middle English) and the language itself is more like Early Modern English.

Mitch

CowperKettle

Mitch

all the differences of the post proto/pre-modern germanic dialects

Cerberus

Nice table.

Mitch

02:49

one easy table you can convert from one language to another

sort of

not really

tchrist

03:05

@CowperKettle The frauds always give themselves away with their bad language. :) We don't inflect speak following dost thou any more than we do so following do you.

@Mitch What's OF vs OLF?

Mitch

OF is Old Frisian

tchrist

But Middle English didn't use do that way. Shakespeare himself barely did in Early Modern English.

Mitch

OLF is Old Low Franconian the precursor to Dutch

tchrist

@Mitch Yeah I couldn't resolve the F to just one thing that worked both ways.

Cerberus

Other languages still use it not so.

tchrist

03:09

@Cerberus Still use not what thing?

What thing still use not other languages?

Mitch

It's just comedy

tchrist

Comity is good.

Cerberus

03:31

@tchrist Do.

tchrist

> Some form of auxiliary "do" occurs in all West Germanic languages except Afrikaans.[9]:12 It is generally accepted that the past tense of Germanic weak verbs (in English, -ed) was formed from a combination of the infinitive with a past tense form of "do", as exemplified in Gothic.[9]:12

> The origins of the construction in English are debated: some scholars argue it was already present in Old English, but not written due to stigmatization.[9]:13 Scholars disagree whether the construction arose from the use of "do" as a lexical verb in its own right, or whether periphrastic "do" arose from a causative meaning of the verb or vice versa.[9]:23

> Examples of auxiliary "do" in Old English writing appear to be limited to its use in a causative sense, which is parallel to the earliest uses in other West Germanic languages.[9]:24 Others argue that the construction arose either via the influence of Celtic speakers[10] or that the construction arose as a form of creolization when native speakers addressed foreigners and children.[9]:13

> Linguistic Purism in Action: How Auxiliary Tun was Stigmatized in Early New High German

> The auxiliary do (tun) is one of the most-discussed constructions in West Germanic. In German, there is a striking opposition between modern standard German, where the construction is virtually ungrammatical and considered to be "sub-standard" by most speakers, whilst, as this book shows, the construction is attested in all modern dialects as well as historic stages since 1350.

In answering why auxiliary tun is ungrammatical in modern standard German, it is shown that the stigmatization of tun was caused by prescriptive grammarians in the 16th-18th century. Furthermore it is shown that t…

I'm too weak in Germanic languages to say much, but I'm sure I was never taught to use it that way in German.

Cerberus

03:56

@tchrist They'd have to show examples.

But, yes, in Dutch it sounds childish.

I think it is only found in imperatives, with the adverb maar "but, just".

> ~~Doe maar lopen.~~

"Do just walk."

Perhaps it is used by some dialects or very low sociolects in some other situations as well.

It is very, very bad Dutch.

We use it jocularly, as one casually imitates groups to mock them.

Mitch

@Cerberus but it is used

I had thought that English was the only one that did it

Cerberus

@Mitch Well, it is not used in the way English does.

But yes.

CowperKettle

05:20

Xanne

06:13

I didn’t realize Africa was so big,

Mr_Green

07:14

Hello everyone!

I want to know what is the word for a person who thinks others can change them?

Mr_Green

07:38

I asked here

0

Q: What is the word for a person who thinks/afraid others can change them?

To give some context, A person believes somethings (for example religious practices) but if someone tries to prove that those beliefs are wrong, the person gets into defensive mode - and can even burst with anger or get ready to fight. So, this is a person who wants to protect his/her beliefs and...

M.A.R.

08:40

@Xanne and,

CowperKettle

> The car-sized Perseverance rover has roughly the same dimensions as Curiosity: it's about 10 feet long (not including the arm), 9 feet wide, and 7 feet tall (about 3 meters long, 2.7 meters wide, and 2.2 meters tall).

It will land very soon.

It weighs 100 kg more though

Probably the largest Mars rover ever.

Mars 360: NASA's Mars Curiosity Rover - Sol 1197 (360video 8K)

►

Faheem Mitha

09:14

I've never heard of this gentleman before, but he sounds like he was quite a guy.

Federico García Lorca

Federico del Sagrado Corazón de Jesús García Lorca (Spanish pronunciation: [feðeˈɾiko ðel saˈɣɾaðo koɾaˈθon de xeˈsuz ɣaɾˈθi.a ˈloɾka]; 5 June 1898 – 19 August 1936), known as Federico García Lorca (English: gar-SEE-ə LOR-kə), was a Spanish poet, playwright, and theatre director. García Lorca achieved international recognition as an emblematic member of the Generation of '27, a group consisting of mostly poets who introduced the tenets of European movements (such as symbolism, futurism, and surrealism) into Spanish literature. He is believed to have been killed by Nationalist forces at the beginning...

Someone just quoted him on a TV show I was watching.

CowperKettle