English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

tchrist

00:17

@Robusto A hundred fucking thousand new cases today. Boy if that doesn't wake people up to the election, they're dead already.

> Fourteen states reported single-day records for new cases on Friday: Wyoming, North Dakota, South Dakota, Utah, Montana, Illinois, Minnesota, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Oregon, Kansas, Ohio, Colorado and Maine. And three states hit record deaths: Tennessee, Montana and New Mexico.

Never mind, nobody cares how those states vote, right?

There's nothing worse than getting away with shooting somebody to death in broad daylight on Fifth Avenue — except for killing 200,000 of them.

> The United States reported nearly 100,000 new coronavirus cases in a day on Friday, setting a record as a fall wave of infections surge in every swing state that will be crucial to next week’s presidential election.

A fell wave indeed.

> The number of infections nationwide surpassed 9 million reported infections on Friday, just 15 days after the tally hit 8 million.

Any bets we hit 10 million in 10 days or less?

Robusto

00:43

@tchrist That about sums it up.

@tchrist 230,000 of them.

Cerberus

01:28

Robusto

@Cerberus I sure hope it comes in there or better.

Cerberus

And I.

I believe most of the toss-ups also favour Biden.

Robusto

I sure hope so.

There is this background radiation of anxiety I've been feeling since this time four years ago. I would sure like it to end.

Cerberus

@Robusto I can imagine.

Færd

> Those who will not be ruled by the rudder must be ruled by the rock.

Cerberus

01:32

They say they have corrected polling methods for the mistakes of 2016.

Færd

How can a vessel be ruled by a rock?

Cerberus

I think that's two different metaphors?

Færd

I'm not sure.

Cerberus

Must be, or it wouldn't make sense.

Færd

Ah maybe. As in severe physical punishment?

Cerberus

01:34

Yes.

Robusto

@Færd It's a figurative use. The rock rules the ship by sinking it.

Færd

"If you can't take gentle guidance, you have to accept rough treatment."

Cerberus

Yes.

Robusto

@Færd That's another way to put it.

Cerberus

@Robusto Do you really think that's the intended picture?

Robusto

01:35

Yes.

Cerberus

Sinking a ship by using a rock, that's unusual!

Robusto

@Cerberus Not if you fail to use the rudder and steer into the rock.

Cerberus

Ah, that kind of rock.

A reef.

Robusto

That is precisely the meaning.

Færd

@Robusto Ah. That's a possibility.

Cerberus

01:36

That does make sense.

Færd

Thanks!

Robusto

It's not just a possibility, it's certainly what was intended.

NP

Cerberus

Yeah.

Færd

But why "rule by the rock"? A reef doesn't rule a ship.

It dooms it, condemns it, doesn't rule it.

Cerberus

Rule, as in: determine what happens to the ship.

If the ship (the organisation/population) won't listen to guidance, it will be forced to listen to the consequences of ignoring guidance (the ship will be grounded and/or sink).

Robusto

01:46

@Færd You have to think metaphorically. Abandon your literal thinking, landlubber!

Færd

@Cerberus Yeah I get that. Just thought rule is a strange choice.

@Robusto Alright!

Cerberus

Yeah, rule is yet another level of metaphor.

Robusto

It is poetic language. It's supposed to make you think.

Cerberus

Yeah.

And people like allitterations.

Robusto

Do you mean alliterations?

Sorry, I'm feeling insufferable tonight.

tchrist

01:49

I've been like that for a long time.

Cerberus

@Robusto I thought you might comment. I prefer the etymological spelling.

tchrist

I always see French when I see littérature and coulouuuur.

Mitch

beloit

tchrist

And prioritise.

@Mitch That's spelt bel lieu ces jours, tu sais.

My natal city.

Mitch

Haha no way

That's near the border right?

Like near rockford?

Cerberus

02:04

Natal, Rio Grande do Norte

Natal (Brazilian Portuguese: [naˈtaw] ) is the capital and largest city of the state Rio Grande do Norte, located in northeastern Brazil. According to IBGE's July 2018 report, the city had a total population of 763,043, making it the 19th largest city in the country. Natal is a major tourist destination and an exporting hub of crustaceans, carnauba wax and fruits, mostly melon, sugar apple, cashew and papaya. It is the country's closest city to Africa and Europe, with its Greater Natal International Airport connecting Natal with many Brazilian cities and also operating some international flights...

tchrist

@Mitch Yes.

It's really the same city as Rockford.

RegDwigнt

@Robusto I would tell Dan Price he need not worry. Eventually America will bring democracy to itself alright. The Proud Boys are ready.

@tchrist why is everything so rectangular. Stop copying Africa.

tchrist

It's only a different city when there's country not city between one and the next, like between Janesville and Beloit. See that green? That's how you know it's a different city. But the destruction from Beloit stretches all the way down to Rockford, with nearly no break.

Mitch

I only know of rockford from maps and beloit from the name of the college

Also that it's the sound of a ball bearing dropping in a toilet

RegDwigнt

I only know of Sam Rockford. And his name isn't even Rockford, it's Rockwell.

I also know of the cheese. But it likewise is spolen differently.

tchrist

02:11

Beloit is the part just above South Beloit, with the state line separating them.

@RegDwigнt Jim. Jim Rockford.

It's right there in the files.

The Rockford Files

The Rockford Files is an American detective drama television series starring James Garner that aired on the NBC network between September 13, 1974, and January 10, 1980, and has remained in syndication to the present day. Garner portrays Los Angeles–based private investigator Jim Rockford, with Noah Beery Jr. in the supporting role of his father, Joseph Rockford, a retired truck driver nicknamed "Rocky". The show was created by Roy Huggins and Stephen J. Cannell. Huggins created the television show Maverick (1957–1962), which starred Garner, and he wanted to recapture that magic in a "modern...

RegDwigнt

Meh. Jim Rockford never starred in Confessions of a Dangerous Mind or Galaxy Quest. Two of the finest movies of the last hundred years, and the next.

Mitch

Cheese?

RegDwigнt

The Green Mile was kinda shit tho. You've heard it here first. If only because I'm the only person on the planet to hold that opinion.

Roquefort

Roquefort (UK: , US: , French: [ʁɔkfɔʁ] (listen); Occitan: ròcafòrt [ˌrɔkɔˈfɔɾt]) is a sheep milk cheese from Southern France, and is one of the world's best known blue cheeses. Though similar cheeses are produced elsewhere, EU law dictates that only those cheeses aged in the natural Combalou caves of Roquefort-sur-Soulzon may bear the name Roquefort, as it is a recognised geographical indication, or has a protected designation of origin. The cheese is white, tangy, crumbly and slightly moist, with distinctive veins of blue mold. It has a characteristic fragrance and flavor with a notable taste...

tchrist

Rocky Ford, Colorado

Rocky Ford is a Statutory City located in Otero County, Colorado, United States. The population was 3,957 at the 2010 census. The community was named for a rocky ford near the original town site. == Geography == Rocky Ford is located at 38°3′4″N 103°43′17″W (38.051000, -103.721387).According to the United States Census Bureau, the city has a total area of 1.7 square miles (4.4 km2), of which, 1.7 square miles (4.4 km2) of it is land and 0.58% is water. == Demographics == As of the census of 2000, there were 4,286 people, 1,655 households, and 1,136 families residing in the city. The population...

RegDwigнt

Not to be confused with La Rochefoucauld.

Mitch

02:14

It's easy to make a claim about the future when no one can tell otherwise

tchrist

Pendulum?

RegDwigнt

François de La Rochefoucauld (writer)

François VI, Duc de La Rochefoucauld, Prince de Marcillac (French: [fʁɑ̃swa d(ə) la ʁɔʃfuko]; 15 September 1613 – 17 March 1680) was a noted French moralist and author of maxims and memoirs. He is part of the literary movement of classicism and best known for his maxims. Although he only officially published his Memoirs and his Maxims, his literary production is dense. Born in Paris in 1613, at a time when the royal court was vacillating between aiding the nobility and threatening it, he was considered an exemplar of the accomplished seventeenth century nobleman. Until 1650, he bore the title...

@Mitch I can tell otherwise. Which is precisely why I won't.

tchrist

Pendulous.

RegDwigнt

No, that's Umberto.

tchrist

Did you see that silliness about German?

Mitch

02:15

Pendejo

RegDwigнt

Sub umberto alarum tuarum, Iehova.

Mitch

Semper ubi sub ubi

RegDwigнt

@tchrist can you be any less precise?

tchrist

2

A: Is "Zielerreichungsgrad" a word that is used in English?

I'm currently writing my thesis in English, and my professor told me that the German word "Zielereichungsgrad" (Degree of goal achievement) is used in English. Can anyone tell me if that's correct? I'm sure it is not correct. On searching for the term I got only German sites - either in German ...

RegDwigнt

I see seventeen sillinesses about German every minute of every day. Sometimes eighteen.

tchrist

02:17

> I can easily say Zeitgeist, Schadenfreude is okay and I can just about manage Entschuldigung if I concentrate. "Zielereichungsgrad" would be completely beyond me without a lot of practice.

RegDwigнt

@tchrist well, to be fair, you won't even call childrengarden childrengarden, so the question is legit.

tchrist

Well of course you can't say that. It's missing an R.

It means that place where all the young seal pups hang out, Undergrad Seal's Reach.

RegDwigнt

Nota bene for what it's worth: I've been a native speaker of German for 23 years, and this is the first time ever I see the word Zielerreichungsgrad.

Mitch

I think that's an answer

tchrist

I bet his proffie made it uppie.

RegDwigнt

02:18

You might as well ask if the word control flow graph visualization software is used in French.

It's not even fucking used in English. Except on our website.

tchrist

There. That.

RegDwigнt

Well the green rectangle tells me to not even click on that, so I won't even click on that.

tchrist

I wonder why he thinks it's any harder to say than any other word. Maybe he can't stem out the pieces.

RegDwigнt

Every word is hard to say. Except moist and gusset.

That is why I prefer typing here over posting MP3s.

tchrist

Tattooist rhymes with moist.

Star Wars got it wrong.

RegDwigнt

02:22

Just a couple days ago I rhymed springtime with sweet lime.

Mitch

Take a screen shot of the mp3 and then post it

tchrist

@RegDwigнt That's because for you, as for me, they have all the same vowels.

RegDwigнt

musescore.com/user/27897310/scores/6406054

Proof.

tchrist

The Brits say it is different though.

RegDwigнt

Poetic license is poetic. And also license.

tchrist

02:23

Swing and sweet both have /i/ to us.

RegDwigнt

Nah, that's not it. I also rhymed wine with twain at the end.

> A sadness I cannot express
has opened wide both eyes to see me.
The crystal vase wakes up, still dreamy,
and clads the room in splendid dress.

The air is full of kind relief,
no medicine can match its sweetness!
A tiny kingdom in its meekness
has fallen into so much sleep.

A lovely glass of ruby wine,
a lovely ray of sunlit springtime.
A slice of sponge cake soaked in sweet lime
such fine pale fingers break in twain.

I only had like half a day for that shit. I'm on a schedule here.

tchrist

You're poetasting in ENGLISH??

RegDwigнt

I'm translating in English. Because you jokers won't understand anything else.

I got like ten translations up on MuseScore alone.

musescore.com/user/27897310/sets/5104741

tchrist

@RegDwigнt vobiscum non voscum

regards

RegDwigнt

Yes yes, sub umbra et cetera, ac postea.

tchrist

02:28

Oh my.

I hit the piano icon in musescore.com/user/27897310/scores/5889327/piano-tutorial and heard .... organic voices?

Sounded like something to scare away the tricky treaters with.

RegDwigнt

Well that one is SATB. Also, that one @Rob helped me translate.

Also also, never click on any icons except play. And even that one is fairly borked right now.

Anyways, that's like twenty minutes of music in total for your perusing pleasure right there, and I must be off anyway. It's half past three and have no idea if I have piano lessons tomorrow. So I better get up early just in case.

Nighty-night.

M.A.R.

02:45

-6

Q: Is standing required in traffic court cases when the accused raises the interest?

I have a speeding ticket court date coming up soon in NY and I don't know if there will be a prosecutor or a plaintiff or just the police officer against me. One of my main arguments will be that the court lacks subject matter jurisdiction because the accuser lacks standing under grounds of a no...

N.B.: Law.SE can be a surprisingly fun pastime

Mitch

02:58

@M.A.R. Would it work this way where you are?

Cerberus

That sounds rather...implausible.

CowperKettle

09:19

M.A.R.

09:40

@Mitch No way, heh

CowperKettle

There are two countries named Republic of the Congo, and their capitals are located right next to each other. I never knew that.

Kinshasa, 16 mn people, and Brazzavile, 2 mn people

Kinshasa is the largest French-speaking city in the world

CowperKettle

11:03

Controversial New Theory Says Human Consciousness Is ... Electromagnetic?

CowperKettle

13:30

Word of the day: synophrys

M.A.R.

13:48

@CowperKettle Well it's useful but I won't be able to remember that one

@CowperKettle What abnormality is having an ear in the mandibular ramus?

Heh now I can't unsee it

JTP - Apologise to Monica

14:08

Article on US excess deaths from Covid. Over a month old, I'd hope they update soon. nytimes.com/interactive/2020/05/05/us/…

Robusto

14:29

@RegDwigнt Stop trying to comfort me. You're not good at it.

M.A.R.

15:47

James Bond passed away

RIP

About two hours ago it seems

Faheem Mitha

@M.A.R. James Bond isn't real, so he can't die. Just FYI.

M.A.R.

. . .

in The Screening Room, 2 hours ago, by Faded Giant

R.I.P Sean Connery

Faheem Mitha

Though statistically, based on what he got up to in the novels. he should have lasted maybe a month at his job before dying horribly.

Like pretty much every adventure "hero" in popular media.

One wonders what people think spies actually get up to.

Robusto

La consagración de la primavera - Stravinsky - Analisis por: Leonard Bernstein (Español)

►

@RegDwigнt ^

Es muy interesante..

If you don't understand the Spanish, you can still hear him speaking English underneath: "Use the whole bow. The whole bow."

Like von Karajan, Bernstein is one conductor who is unafraid to give us this piece in the raw.

CowperKettle

16:03

@M.A.R. Did you know this term, mandibular ramus, or had you to look it up?

I have coronoid process of the mandible in my Anki dictionary, but somewhy I always forget its name in Russian.

I've downloaded some audiobooks

Robusto

@CowperKettle How is your ear for English?

M.A.R.

@CowperKettle I had a brief anatomy course during my first uni term

@FaheemMitha Have you watched Burn After Reading?

CowperKettle

@Robusto Audiobooks usually have impeccable spelling and thus are very good for listening

I know that "ramus" is "bough" (like in a tree) but always confuse it with ram nonetheless

Citizen of the Russian city of Chita fined a monthly salary's worth for displaying a cartoon caricature with "a man that looks like Putin" -- that's some Putin's stability for you. Lese-majeste

Robusto

Lèse-majesté ftw.

CowperKettle

In Yekaterinburg, a 38-yo crane operator raped a 32-yo compression operator while the latter was drunk.

The compression operator previously served a prison term for rape.

Robusto

16:16

This is a story I would stop reading fairly quickly.

@CowperKettle Whatever your lot in life, apparently it could only be worse in Thailand:

Lèse majesté in Thailand

Lèse majesté in Thailand is criminalized by Section 112 of the Thai Criminal Code. It is illegal to defame, insult, or threaten the king, queen, heir-apparent, heir-presumptive, or regent. Modern Thai lèse-majesté law has been on the statute books since 1908. Thailand is the only constitutional monarchy to have strengthen its lèse majesté law since World War II, with penalties of three to fifteen years' imprisonment per count and has been described as the "world's harshest lèse majesté law" and "possibly the strictest criminal-defamation law anywhere". According to social scientist Michael Connors...

CowperKettle

@Robusto Yes, I read some horrible stories about people being procesuted for mild critique of the dynasty in Thailand

Robusto

Some people just can't take a joke.

@CowperKettle Do you mean impeccable pronunciation?

CowperKettle

@Robusto Yes

Robusto

What I thought.

M.A.R.

16:33

Which books should I choose to listen to instead of read?

I worry my comprehension will suffer a bit if I listen to Audiobooks, so I only read stuff.

Robusto

@M.A.R. Any book, if you're learning another language. Look at the printed version first so that the vocabulary and the constructions aren't too complicated for you to understand easily. But on the plus side, you can slow down the playback to whatever your ear tells you is comfortable for comprehension.

CowperKettle

When we moved to Yekaterinburg in 1997, I discovered that BBC WorldService was available on radio, and started listening to it at all times, even though I could not understand everything

Gradually I get accustomed to it, and started to understand more and more.

*got

I was taking BBC QD, so to speak

tchrist

16:58

@CowperKettle That's a very good way to become sufficiently well accustomed to the intonation patterns customary to a language or dialect thereof to develop an ear for parsing out individual words from a sound-stream and for developing one's passive predictive parsing hints that so greatly aid in aural comprehension.

Those two faculties are both as critical for understanding a language as they are impossible to confer in any formal class that teaches that language. It is something that must be learned but cannot be taught.

It can only be absorbed, the same way as a child learns a language by listening to it not by being told about it.

It's a sort of linguistic muscle memory, if you would.

@M.A.R. That nearly sounds like an election strategy.

@Mitch I find using the noun phrase as a bare adverbial adjunct sans connective preposition completely natural in your case: Where have you been this past week?

For me it doesn't matter whether you use a preposition like during, through, over, across, for, in, circa or omit it altogether here. That's much less true when it comes to prepositions involving a more pronounced semantic content not just structural mechanics like until, before, despite, besides, notwithstanding, since, unlike, excepting, minus, modulo whose omission would completely change the sentence’s intended meaning.

@CowperKettle I've only just now realized your uses of "taking" and "QD" are from formal medical instructions found on ℞ directions.

List of medical abbreviations: Latin abbreviations

The main discussion of these abbreviations in the context of drug prescriptions and other medical prescriptions is at List of abbreviations used in medical prescriptions. Some of these abbreviations are best not used, as marked and explained here. ....

List of abbreviations used in medical prescriptions

This is a list of abbreviations used in medical prescriptions, including hospital orders (the patient-directed part of which is referred to as sig codes). This list does not include abbreviations for pharmaceuticals or drug name suffixes such as CD, CR, ER, XT (See Time release technology § List of abbreviations for those). Capitalization and the use of periods are a matter of style. In the list, abbreviations in English are capitalized whereas those in Latin are not. These abbreviations can be verified in reference works, both recent and older. Some of those works (such as Wyeth 1901) are so...

Interesting that the AMA advises against writing b.i.d. (bis in die), preferring instead a written-out twice daily. I know I've received prescriptions that have included b.i.d., t.i.d., q.i.d. before, and not just long ago either.

But considering how the general public cannot consistently understand and apply the difference between biannual and semiannual, it's probably best to stick to English by writing every two years for the first term and either every half-year or twice per year for the second.

What's the single word for that common type of dysnumeracy that derives from flipping numerator and denominator in ¹⁄₂ vs ²⁄₁ as we see occur in with paired bi-/semi- terms like that?

Like bimonthly bills being ¹ ᵇⁱˡ ˡ ⁄₂ ₘₒₙₜₕₛ vs semimonthly bills being ² ᵇⁱˡˡˢ ⁄ ₁ ₘₒₙₜₕ?

"Fonts that suck".

Like bimonthly bills being a bill every two months vs semimonthly bills being two bills each month.

The same happens with terms like semester, trimester, quadrimester.

semester is six months not a semi-year.

CowperKettle

17:34

@tchrist I prefer using simple English, but fellow translators sometimes use b.i.d. and q.d. etc.

tchrist

@CowperKettle Broomstricks with headlights!

> 1924 Miller Freeman, American Lumberman — What with the cyanide and electrolytic methods of gold extraction, it is only to be wondered at that the decline in the value of this metal has not been more debacular and tragic than has been seen.

Let’s save debacular for the word of the week to come should it be needed.

tchrist

17:59

> antejentacular, avuncular, capitular, conceptacular, coracular,
coronacular, debacular, ejacular, formicular, fanacular, funicular,
gubernacular, habitacular, hibernacular, immacular, innocular,
intertentacular, invernacular, jentacular, lacinular, macular, manacular,
matricular, miracular, multimacular, notoungular, obstacular, opacular,
oracular, ossicular, palpacular, panicular, pentacular, piacular,
pinnacular, placular, prespiracular, propugnacular, receptacular,
respiracular, retinacular, spectacular, spiracular, supernacular,

Knight wants Loong back

@tchrist If I write a message in chat and then delete it. Will mods be able to see it? And if yes for how long?

tchrist

supercalifragilisticularexpialidocular

@KnightwantsLoongback Yes. For ever and ever and ever and ever.

Even room owners can see it if they have a link.

Which is why we move truly terrible messages to privileged, private, mod-only deletion rooms.

:56009041 Knaughty is as knighty does.

Knight wants Loong back

Haha lol! Thanks. I liked talking to you.

tchrist

So yes, it's still there.

Knight wants Loong back

Wow!

You’re really a superman.

tchrist

18:08

It's those twenty-two myriareps.

Can you undecimate twenty to make twenty-two?

Or is it when you undecimate two that you get twenty-two?

Where undecimal is all about elevenses.

How Lincoln Survived the Worst Election Ever: There are many parallels between 1860 and 2020. Let’s hope there aren’t too many.

> But Southerners grew unhinged as they contemplated the end of their easy access to power. In Charlottesville, Va., one newspaper tried to blame Lincoln voters for “numerical tyranny,” as if Northerners were corrupting democracy simply by existing in such large numbers. Many were beginning to understand that the South’s ideas about democracy were as peculiar as its institutions.

South Carolina still did not allow its citizens to vote for president, and in 1864 Jefferson Davis confirmed in an interview in this newspaper, “We seceded to rid ourselves of the rule of the majority.”

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose: rien ne change jamais.

Nothing changes. We still live in that same world of tenscore years ago.

We’ve merely switched the labels of the political parties. The issues persist.

Apparently this is the year the hurricane namers decided to take their revenge upon monoglot newscasters by picking names they wouldn't be able to pronounce.

Kind of weird that Beta comes before Wilfred which comes before Alpha.

Sally, Teddy, Vicky, Beta, Wilfred, Alpha, Gamma, Delta. This is why Johnny can't spell.

Cerberus

18:50

How are the fires?

M.A.R.

19:08

@Robusto That would certainly make sense, but what about books I primarily read for the information in them? Like scientific books in English and Persian? Audiobooks just don't sound like they would work for those for me

CowperKettle

I don't know the source of this data

But it's interesting

Suddenly Greece is quite well-off

Cerberus

@CowperKettle How do you mean?

M.A.R.

@tchrist That's a pretty accurate description, but I would no way be in the position to tell you that, so um, I'm just going to awkwardly stand in that corner

Cerberus

It is poorer than some Eastern European countries.

CowperKettle

@Cerberus It's 98% of Poland

Cerberus

19:12

Well, that is not great.

CowperKettle

The countries around Greece look way poorer

Cerberus

Of course: they were beyond the Iron Curtain.

M.A.R.

@Cerberus I think Cowp is hinting that things are probably not that good for Greece, because the only interesting news about Greece for the past decade has been their national (?) debt

Cerberus

Greece was always in the West.

@M.A.R. Well, Greece has had some issues, and it wasn't rich to begin with; but it was always richer than the Balkan.

CowperKettle

Judging by all the doomy news about Greece in the recent years, I was astonished to find it quite well-off compared with neighbors.

Cerberus

19:14

And also a better place to live in in other regards.

CowperKettle

It's a pity that Turkey is not well-off. They must have a great climate. A lot of natural resources.

M.A.R.

@CowperKettle does a global version of this map exist?

Cerberus

@CowperKettle Greece is worse off than ten years ago, probably. But, again, most of Eastern Europe has always been much poorer than Greece.

It's not like society collapsed in Greece.

CowperKettle

@M.A.R. It surely must exist, it would be nice to look at

Cerberus

Turkey has lots of poor areas, a bad government, and lots of corruption.

But it's still among the best Muslim countries to live in.

CowperKettle

19:17

And a crazy leader.

Cerberus

Naturally.

CowperKettle

I hope he gets kicked out by the opposition.

Cerberus

Doubtful.

CowperKettle

Lol. Some serious antagonism I feel in this comment.

M.A.R.

19:44

@CowperKettle Crazy? No.

But a two . . . several-faced hypocrite.

@CowperKettle That escalated quickly

tchrist

20:01

@M.A.R. Corners are curious things in English: we do not distinguish the concave corners inside of which one places things or people from the convex corners outside of which places downspouts clad as gargoyles or guardrails upon embankments. Does Farsi?

M.A.R.

@tchrist Not that I'm aware of, but I don't claim my Farsi vocabulary size to be large

I'll go be a gargoyle then

tchrist

Inside corners of rooms or cabinets can be nooks.

But you couldn't call an outside corner a nook.

M.A.R.

kitty box

tchrist

@M.A.R. Quickly? Threescore months is hardly quick.

But he voices a timeless sentiment. It's even in Dante.

> Here sighs and lamentations and loud cries
were echoing across the starless air,
so that, as soon as I [Dante] set out, I wept.

Strange utterances, horrible pronouncements,
accents of anger, words of suffering,
and voice shrill and faints, and beating hands -

All went to make a tumult that will whirl
forever through that turbid, timeless air,
like sand that eddies when a whirlwind swirls.

And I - my head oppressed by horror - said:
"Master [Virgil], what is it that I hear? Who are
those people so defeated by their pain?"

> These individuals, when alive, remained neutral at a time of great moral decision. Virgil explains to Dante that these souls cannot enter either Heaven or Hell because they did not choose one side or another. They are therefore worse than the greatest sinners in Hell because they are repugnant to both God and Satan alike, and have been left to mourn their fate as insignificant beings neither hailed nor cursed in life or death, endlessly travailing below Heaven but outside of Hell.

2

M.A.R.

20:17

Wow

tchrist

Longfellow's translation from two centuries ago may better conjure up the shades of antiquity:

M.A.R.

I wonder if I'm one the cowardly people though

tchrist

> There sighs, complaints, and ululations loud
Resounded through the air without a star,
Whence I, at the beginning, wept thereat.

Languages diverse, horrible dialects,
Accents of anger, words of agony,
And voices high and hoarse, with sound of hands,

Made up a tumult that goes whirling on
For ever in that air for ever black,
Even as the sand doth, when the whirlwind breathes.

And I, who had my head with horror bound,
Said: "Master, what is this which now I hear?
What folk is this, which seems by pain so vanquished?"

M.A.R.

How does this sentiment leave room for doubt?

tchrist

I don't think David Sedaris sees room for doubt.

M.A.R.

20:18

Not here of course, but in life, I mean.

Choosing between a racist and a seasoned politician where you need politicians is pretty easy.

tchrist

In each of us are contained multitudes. You can slice the twain across different axes, and still produce the same effective result.

The axis of competence, for example.

M.A.R.

Mark Twain was not mummified so as to make that possible

To say that some of us will be good and some bad is a bit deterministic, no?

So how does this work, in life? If an individual has several ideologies to weigh and choose from, several religions essentially (of course not just 'religions' in the normal sense), how much slack do we cut them?

How long should they spend figuring it out?

tchrist

Canto III was a deliberate and specific commentary on the internecine politics within and among the city-states of the Italian peninsula of his day that had so riven that land.

It is probably best viewed in that light.

I know you cannot read it, but some there are in these parts who can, so here is the original Italian for those same stanzas:

> Diverse lingue, orribili favelle,
parole di dolore, accenti d’ira,
voci alte e fioche, e suon di man con elle

facevano un tumulto, il qual s’aggira
sempre in quell’ aura sanza tempo tinta,
come la rena quando turbo spira.

E io ch’avea d’error la testa cinta,
dissi: “Maestro, che è quel ch’i’ odo?
e che gent’ è che par nel duol sì vinta?”

Ed elli a me: “Questo misero modo
tegnon l’anime triste di coloro
che visser sanza ’nfamia e sanza lodo.

Mischiate sono a quel cattivo coro
de li angeli che non furon ribelli

Robusto

@M.A.R. No, I wouldn't use audiobooks for study. Too easy to let your attention lapse while you're doing something else.

tchrist

20:37

@M.A.R. It is not cowardly to hear out others without forejudgement.

M.A.R.

@tchrist Hmm, so I'd heard. Still, the advice seems pretty useful to incorporate into life, provided it could be transformed into a version that could coexist with openmindedness: "No dawdling!"

tchrist

Here is some modern commentary or analysis upon those particular stanzas:

> 34 - 36
For the history of the interpretation of this tercet, now generally understood to indicate the presence in the 'ante-inferno,' or vestibule of hell, of the neutrals, those who never took a side, see Mazzoni (Saggio di un nuovo commento alla “Divina Commedia”: “Inferno” –Canti I-III [Florence: Sansoni, 1967]), pp. 355-67. And, for the existence of exactly such a 'vestibule' in hell in the Visio Pauli see Theodore Silverstein (“Did Dante Know the Vision of St. Paul?” Harvard Studies and Notes in Philology and Literature 19 [1937], pp. 231-47). In Paul's apocryphal Vision (for the mo…

From here excerpted.

> The most-debated passage of this canto, at least in the modern era. Many of the early commentators were convinced that this passage clearly intended a biting reference to Pope Celestine V (Pier da Morrone), who abdicated the papacy in 1294 after having held the office for less than four months.

He was followed into it by Dante's great ecclesiastical enemy, Pope Boniface VIII, and there are colorful contemporary accounts that would have it that Boniface mimicked the voice of the Holy Spirit in the air passages that led to Celestine's bed chamber, counseling his abdication.

> The names of many others have been proposed, including those of Esau and Pontius Pilate. It seems fair to say that there are fatal objections to all of these other candidacies.

> Yet Mazzoni's own evidence and arguments ... help to convince this reader that it was indeed Celestine that Dante had in mind, as is underlined by his later scathing reference to the event of 'the great refusal' in Inf. XXVII.104-105. Further, Dante tells us that he 'saw and knew' (that is, recognized) this shade: there is nothing indeterminate in such a locution. Nardi's telling objections to Petrocchi's denial that Dante would have put Celestine, canonized in 1313, in hell ....

So this may well have been about papal matters.

Not generalized ones.

But it is almost always taken as being general. That's why it figured so highly in JFK's estimation.

He's the one who summarized Canto III into the quote that is now so often made. There is no such literal Italian version of what Kennedy said, but he never claimed otherwise either.

Cerberus

@tchrist How are the fires? Lying low?

tchrist

@Cerberus One wonders.

The winds were warm and furious earlier, and the skies crystal clear. There was a fear that the fires would leap at the chance. So far I have seen nothing.

The Air Quality Index is close to nothing.

The Park is still closed, and shall be for quite some time.

The fire destroyed "only" 250 buildings, which is far fewer than initial estimates of 350-500 before they got in to account for them all.

That's East Troublesome. I believe 26 homes were lost in the nearby but far smaller fire to my immediate north by northwest.

The estimation is that only 100 of those 250 were homes rather than other sorts of outbuildings like tool sheds or garages.

I believe 10% of Rocky Mountain National Park was burned, by far the largest amount from the past five centuries.

> The East Troublesome Fire has burned nearly 29,000 acres inside Rocky Mountain National Park, and on Friday, the park service said there was no timeline for reopening.

Cerberus

20:56

I'm glad it seems to have quieted down for the moment, despite the losses.

tchrist

It still burns, or perhaps I should say, smoulders.

Mitch

In other news, Elon Musk is declaring himself king over Mars, at least the parts that his organization invades.

tchrist

Smolders?

Mitch

Mulder's.

tchrist

@Mitch He's a child of Apartheid, isn't he? Probably wants to keep the red people out.

Cerberus

21:00

I see.

Is not the snow enough to suffocate the fire?

tchrist

@Cerberus That is correct. It was only a foot or twenty inches that fell. It would have taken a far greater storm than that to actually put the fire out.

That kind of snowfall can only put out grass fires, not forest fires.

But it can and does stop the forest fires from growing and spreading for a spell.

Cerberus

So the smouldering wood under the snow can still get enough oxygen?

Robusto

21:33

@Cerberus It's not about that. The snow in that quantity isn't going to put out the fiercely burning parts of the blaze, but it will prevent sparks from propagating the blaze as they are blown with the wind to unburned (and now snow-covered) areas.

Cerberus

@Robusto Yes.

But what happens to the smouldering areas that are covered with snow?

Will they continue to smoulder?

Robusto

@Cerberus If they're merely smoldering then they will eventually die out. And a blanket of snow, especially half a meter of it, will likely hasten that eventuality.

Cerberus

There is temperature and suffocation.

I wonder about the choking effect.

Robusto

Chocking?

Oh, you mean choking.

Snow melt will choke some of the embers, but not all of them.

If there are still forge-hot embers in sufficient quantity, they will be able to bring the fire back to life.

Mitch

so if anything it's a mini vacation for the firefighters

and maybe in a month it'll start snowing more.

what was the scifi story recently involving terraforming mars (as one very small side story)?

was it 'The Expanse'?

There's lots of reforestation programs in the area between the Sahara and the West African rain forests (is that the 'Sahel'?), and it's totally great, but I hope they have some concern/planning for increased chance of fires.

but like overpopulation on Mars, that's probably not a big concern at the moment.

I mean like in southern Spain and southern France, the yearly summer fires aren't taking down redwood style pine forests, but mostly low brush.

Robusto

21:49

Our CoViD cases have dropped to 592 now, after being over 1,000 for a couple of days.

Still rather high, but at least there's a chance it is abating somewhat.

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