English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

20:00

@tchrist As I said, I believe Laclos still uses the subjunctive a lot in hypotheticals.

It struck me when reading Liaisons Dangereuses.

Actually, I believe Latin can also use the perfect indicative.

Si sapientior fui...

tchrist

dicerem, or dixerem.

@Cerberus Perhaps here

Cerberus

20:15

@tchrist You mean dixerim? I don't think you would use the perfect subjunctive.

Then it would be read as a potentialis.

tchrist

Yes dixerim

Oh I found the answer to the French question.

Cerberus

So not dixerim. That is a different kind of conditional.

Potentialis ≠ irrealis.

tchrist

Si elle fût restée à Paris, il eût continué à la faire souffrir. [Montherlant 1936, p 115]

Cerberus

Ah, yes. That's the tense I meant.

I must admit I confuse some of the less common tenses in French.

tchrist

So they used to use it. The book whose ref I give discusses the loss of subjunctive forms in French.

Cerberus

20:20

I saw it.

tchrist

There is relevant material on the bottom of 210, about hypotheses.

Cerberus

No, wait, I wasn't confusing anything.

tchrist

?

Cerberus

I sometimes get the forms of the passé simple and the imperfect subjunctive mixed up, that's all.

Fut v. fût.

Fûtes v. fussiez.

tchrist

The fut vs fût distinction is easy to forget or miss.

Cerberus

20:24

Yeah.

I have no idea how that circonflexe got there.

tchrist

a lost s, usually

Cerberus

But not always.

And not here.

Matt Эллен

maybe a Frenchman misplaced his beret

Cerberus

I am assuming fût is based on fuit here.

tchrist

Why not here? The other persons all have an s in the imperfect subjunctive.

Cerberus

20:26

Ah, gotcha.

I mean, in fût it probably comes from fuisset; but in fûmes, it should come from fuimus?

Grace Note

G'aftoon, all

Cerberus

Hi.

tchrist

Perhaps. I’d look toward fuérimus, except I don’t know that the French versions came from thereabouts.

Cerberus

Why are there a hundred people standing in front of my house?

@tchrist Is that old French?

Robusto

@Cerberus We're just watching to make sure you don't do anything suspicious.

tchrist

20:30

No, Latin

Grace Note

@Cerberus Something about your house might be worth attention. This can range from something really nice being on your lawn, to a fire. It'd be wiser to investigate.

Cerberus

Or do you mean fuerimus? Are you suggesting that the passé simple came from the perfect subjunctive? That wouldn't make sense?

tchrist

No.

Cerberus

@Robusto I knew it was you!

@GraceNote They're not looking at my house, most of them aren't.

tchrist

I’m suggesting that in general, the Latin pluperfect subjunctive gave rise to Romance imperfect subjunctive.

Cerberus

20:31

I have some 17th century ornaments.

But they're probably just going out to bars and stuff.

RegDwight АΑA

A fire below sea level. Hahahahaha.

Cerberus

Half of them have left.

RegDwight АΑA

Drowned, you mean.

Grace Note

@Cerberus Then it's probably a fire.

tchrist

With the Latin perfect subjunctive turning into the future subjunctive in Old Spanish and in Portuguese. The Latin pluperfect indicative turned into the literary pluperfect in Old Portuguese and in Spanish, but into an alternate imperfect subjunctive in Spanish.

It’s something of a tangled mess.

Cerberus

20:33

@tchrist But fuerimus is no pluperfect, and fûmes is no subjunctive.

@GraceNote No, they are looking at their leader, not at any houses.

tchrist

Yes yes, you're right. I have to have verb tables in front of my face to keep the seldom-used French tenses straight in the irregulars.

Grace Note

@Cerberus Is they're leader looking at the fire at your house?

Cerberus

@tchrist I don't think the Latin perfect subjunctive turned into a future subjunctive in Spanish? That would rather be the future perfect.

tchrist

French preterite fûmes < Latin perfect fuimus, just as it would become fuimos is others.

Cerberus

@tchrist Same here.

RegDwight АΑA

20:35

@GraceNote make it go away! GAAAH.

Cerberus

@GraceNote No, he is just ignoring the fire.

@tchrist Yes, that is what I suggested...so I was wondering about the circonflexe.

tchrist

All perfect tenses in modern Spanish, like most Romance, are constructed with auxiliaries. The literary pluperfect copied from Latin doesn't count.

Oh right, it can’t be an s there.

Cerberus

The s thing is only a rule of thumb anyway.

As to the Spanish future subjunctive, it could be based on both the Latin perfect subjunctive and the Latin future perfect, which appear identical in all but one form.

Robusto

0

Q: The difference beteeen "provide confidential advice" and "provide confidential help"

Why would it be OK to say "provide confidential advice" but not "provide confidential help". To me the latter seems wrong, but I can't explain why.

grammar

Meanwhile, Rick James ... is Gen Ref.

Cerberus

Fuerim/fuero, fueris, fuerit, ... fuerint.

Future perfect fuero, perfect subjunctive fuerim.

tchrist

20:39

Compare Spanish with Latin, French, Italian.

MetaEd

Is there an April Fools Day tradition here.

I don't remember anything happening last April 1.

Matt Эллен

you don't?

tchrist

LA fuerim > ES fuere, PT for, which are future subjunctives.

Matt Эллен

there was an influx of New Zealand users

asking a few questions about sexism and such

@MetaEd next time I think we'll be more organised

Gigili

Haha, it was great.

Cerberus

20:41

@tchrist It is a possibility, but I would rather say it was based on both fuerim and fuero.

Gigili

Sushi questions and whatnot.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен David?

Oh, yes.

That was Marjorie, who was I.

Matt Эллен

well remembered!

Cerberus

Thanks!!

I hadn't read Ed's question yet when I replied.

MetaEd

I'm planning ahead.

RegDwight АΑA

20:43

@Robusto What, he's gonna smack me back? I'm Rick James, He's Charlie Murphy.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus I see, even better then!

Cerberus

@MetaEd It was great fun. You shoulda been there.

@MattЭллен Yes, Mr Moderator.

RegDwight АΑA

Cocaine's a helluva drug!

Cerberus

Oh, what disappointment it shall be if you lose!

Robusto

@RegDwightАΑA You? You're Rick James? Well, that explaineth a lot.

tchrist

20:43

@Cerberus I don’t know how to know whether it was from fuero or fuerim. The others aren't different.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus I'm no moderator yet

Cerberus

@tchrist I think the two had blended together.

Robusto

Come on, SLACKERS! Close that damn GR question already!

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus Yes, I shall have to throw a tantrum and blame everyone for supporting the undemocratic, opaque schemes of the SE founders

Cerberus

Yes.

That is fair.

Matt Эллен

20:45

:D

in bold and heading tags

Robusto

@MattЭллен You wanna moderate? Get out your close votes. You're gonna need 'em.

Cerberus

Wow, I love how accurate my phone's rain predictor is.

It is accurate by 10 minutes!

Robusto

@Cerberus Yeah, when you see little drops of water start to bead up on it, you know it's raining!

Cerberus

Exactly!!

RegDwight АΑA

Your neighbor's having a flood again?

tchrist

20:46

@Robusto The slackers are too busy chatting, and vice versa.

Cerberus

The point is, most programs just take one weather station in your city and give you whatever it says.

Robusto

@tchrist Semper idem, semper fidelis.

Cerberus

This one, however, inter-/extrapolates, based on your exact location!

Matt Эллен

@Robusto Oh, I think I voted too localised. Who the heck else cares?

RegDwight АΑA

►

MetaEd

20:47

@RegDwightАΑA Shout louder.

Robusto

@MattЭллен that'll do.

Gigili

@RegDwightАΑA A flood below sea level. Hahahahaha.

Robusto

Meanwhile, I must make for the Batmobile. Laters.

RegDwight АΑA

@MetaEd I'm Rick James, biatch!

Gigili

CU

Cerberus

20:48

Bye.

Good luck getting the Robmobile to start.

tchrist

How can "User's Users' or Users group?" not be dup?

RegDwight АΑA

Oh I'm certain it is.

Gigili

@Mitch OK, so you're 15+17+35? Noted.

Umm, you're the oldest player on the team.

RegDwight АΑA

Oh nais, a serial downvoter!

Cerberus

*nee

tchrist

20:56

@RegDwightАΑA I kinda think the question he links to doesn’t answer the question — about why things like Farmers Almanac are preferred — but I can’t find the dup that I’m sure must be there.

RegDwight АΑA

I'm not even searching. I'm Rick James!

Charlie Murphy, is it you downvoting me?

Grace Note

@RegDwightАΑA I'm usually on top of those, surprised I actually did that. In the English room, of all rooms, so I'm going to claim that it was 100% intentional. Muhaha.

RegDwight АΑA

I see. The if-a-tree-falls-in-a-forest-and-I-claim-it-was-intentional-then-it-makes-no-sound defense. Clever!

2

RegDwight АΑA

21:21

Dexter time. Latorz.

Matt Эллен

gud nite

user19161

21:43

@GraceNote You misspelled "their".

Cerberus

gasp

MetaEd

22:01

Speling is over ated.

Oops! I should have written: Speling is over eaten.

Mitch

@Gigili my inner 67 year old is having trouble understanding you, with all the irony and sarcasm, and lack of respect for the elderly, wondering what your parents have been teaching you. Get Off. My. Lawn.

user19161

@Mitch I don't have a lawn, so I usually say get off my laundry.

Gigili

@Mitch Wow. I flagged you.

Let's see.

user19161

@Gigili No flagging in this chat.

Mitch

YOu really shouldn't be letting kids play with your laundry...all that chocolate on their faces and sticky candy cane juice on their fingers getting all over your clothes.

@Gigili woo hoo! what for?

Gigili

22:13

@JasperLoy I take orders only from the president.

Mitch

was it deserving?

user19161

@Mitch Yeah, my underwear will be sticky with chocolate.

user19161

@Gigili Are you NS?

Mitch

@JasperLoy that is gross.

user19161

@Mitch I will say something more gross. White chocolate in front and dark chocolate behind.

Gigili

22:14

@JasperLoy Yes, when you're Carlo.

user19161

@Gigili Therefore, vacuously true.

user19161

Hi @mah!

Mitch

@JasperLoy Yes, you successfully said something grosser. I will now only be able to read what you say with my eyes closed.

user19161

@Mitch I am very imaginative as you can see...

Mahnax

@JasperLoy Greetings.

user19161

22:17

@Mahnax Oh I forgot again. KFC!

Mahnax

Well, how is everyone today?

user19161

@mah No need to remove the glare!

Mitch

@Mahnax Don't ask about laundry.

Mahnax

@Mitch Oh, I wouldn't, not even on a dare.

Mitch

@Mahnax Don't ask or even mention..well..I can't mention it...but you know what I'm thinking.

and then there's @KitFox.

Mahnax

22:21

@Mitch My previous point remains.

Mitch

but the election..now that is fair game. You're supposed to vote for some people.

KitFox

sighs I am trying to fix a user's problem. This guy is an idiot.

And he's on XP and it's so full of bloat that it runs about as well as his old Buick.

Mitch

idiots are stupid.

Gigili

@Mitch Rather undeserving.

user19161

@KitFox Sounds like cerb.

KitFox

22:23

I don't think Cerb drives a Buick.

Mahnax

I don't think Cerb drives.

Gigili

is in a real huff

Mitch

@Gigili hm..'rather'..that still leaves some doubt.

senses huffing but can't tell from where

senses the need to catch a train. decides maybe it's time to go

goes

Gigili

phew

Mahnax

Bye, Mitch.

Gigili

22:25

Now that Mitch is gone, let's talk about something interesting.

4

KitFox

What's your huff?

Cerberus

@JasperLoy Excuse me? My computer is very fast and works well.

KitFox

Gotta reboot. Back in an hour. Maybe longer.

MetaEd

"You can leave in a taxi. If you can't get a taxi, you can leave in a huff. If that's too soon, you can leave in a minute and a huff."

Cerberus

Good luck!

Gigili

23:01

51 mins ago, by Mitch

@Gigili my inner 67 year old is having trouble understanding you, with all the irony and sarcasm, and lack of respect for the elderly, wondering what your parents have been teaching you. Get Off. My. Lawn.

Behed, good nacht.

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