English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

tchrist

00:33

@TerranSwett Yeah, I've been thinking on it.

I asked the poster to clarify what he's actually interested in here.

"To be said to sneak out after dark" has two infinitives already. It's already complicated.

Robusto

In "to be going to" to be is still just an infinitive.

tchrist

The first one looks a bit passive too.

@Robusto Yeah. I don't know that he is doing himself any favors here by inventing fancy names.

Robusto

One Woman, 17 British Accents - Anglophenia Ep 5

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tchrist

Yeah, I know that one. it's okish.

1. infinitive: to hold him responsible
2. perfect infinitive: to have held him responsible
3. passive infinitive: (for) him to be held responsible
4. perfect passive infinitive: (for) him to have been held responsible

That's about all we have in English for fiddling with infinitives.

Latin actually uses a bit of inflectional morphology for some of those, although it still uses compound forms for half of them.

1. present active infinitive: putare
2. perfect active infinitive: putavisse
3. future active infinitive: putaturum esse (That’s the future active participle of “deem” followed by the present active infinitive of “be”.)
4. present passive infinitive: putari
5. perfect passive infinitive: putatum esse (That’s the future passive participle of “deem” followed by the present active infinitive of “be”.)
6. future passive infinitive: putatum iri (That’s the future passive participle of “deem” followed by the present passive infinitive of “go”.)

And Portuguese can inflect infinitives for number and person.

The infinitive in English — such as be, have, go, or hold — is morphologically inert: it lacks any vestige of inflectional morphology. Try as you may, you cannot fiddle its internal bits to produce some alternate form of the base verb that now expresses traits like its person or number, time or mood, voice or aspect, or even its grammatical relationships with other syntactic constituents.

It’s not that English is incapable of expressing those in its infinitives. You just have to include extra words along them whenever you want to apply one of those traits to your infinitives.

I used puto as in Terrence’s Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto, meaning “I am human: I deem nothing human alien to me.”

M.A.R.

theguardian.com/artanddesign/2020/jul/06/… -- uh, WTF? Is this satire?

tchrist

00:44

Or if not "deem", you can think of it as "hold" or "think" or "consider".

Phallogocentrism

In critical theory and deconstruction, phallogocentrism is a neologism coined by Jacques Derrida to refer to the privileging of the masculine (phallus) in the construction of meaning. The word is a portmanteau of the older terms phallocentrism (focusing on the masculine point of view) and logocentrism (focusing on language in assigning meaning to the world). Derrida and others identified phonocentrism, or the prioritizing of speech over writing, as an integral part of phallogocentrism. Derrida explored this idea in his essay "Plato's Pharmacy". == Background == In contemporary literary a...

Robusto

@tchrist Yeah, but doorways are so ... vaginal.

tchrist

@Robusto Stargate? Wormholes? Black holes?

Robusto

I rest my case.

M.A.R.

@tchrist I uh um but uh, erm

tchrist

2001: A Space Obelisk

@M.A.R. These nutjobs be craaaaaaaaazeeee!

M.A.R.

00:50

Maybe I'll wake up in the morning and find out I dreamed these

It's kinda good to know where to stand.

tchrist

Remember: The opposite of a black hole is a white fountain.

M.A.R.

@tchrist So visually suggestive

tchrist

@M.A.R. Pas moi!

Speaking of which, have you read Gene Wolfe’s Book of the New Sun yet?

It's about bringing a white fountain to restore Earth's dying sun being poisoned by a little black hole planted there by mankind's foes.

Although good luck figuring that out on your first read without my having told you this. :)

Robusto

The Ancient Greek Kithara

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tchrist

@Robusto Psalmistry.

M.A.R.

00:57

@tchrist I'm scared of touching Gene Wolfe books. I probably need to expand my vocab size to twice what it is now to be able to enjoy his stuff, or so I think.

tchrist

@M.A.R. It will grow you.

M.A.R.

That phallogocentrist

tchrist

cítara

Noun: cítara f (plural cítaras)

zither (musical instrument)
cítara f (plural cítaras)
zither (musical instrument)

Robusto

Yeah. This guy takes that to the next level.

tchrist

Kithara and cítara kind of sound like each other.

Robusto

01:00

And guitar is in there as well.

tchrist

Doublets.

M.A.R.

I'm sure it will, but it's a saying in Persian that goes like "a big rock is a sign that you won't hit anything with it".

Robusto

The music he plays toward the end is quite fetching.

Singing along as well.

tchrist

cithara

Noun: cithara (plural citharas or citharai)

An ancient Greek stringed instrument, which could be considered a forerunner of the guitar.
cithara f (genitive citharae); first declension
(music) cithara, lyre, lute, guitar

I'm listening.

He's saying [kiˈθaɾa]; the Spanish say [ˈθit̪aɾa] for that word.

Robusto

He has this video as well:

The Epic Of Gilgamesh In Sumerian

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Funny how many 3-string plucked instruments there are. This gishgudi, the Russian balalaika, the Japanese shamisen ...

tchrist

01:05

Wonder whether that's rooted in dactylic physiology or in the physics of acoustics.

Robusto

Good question.

M.A.R.

Pedestrians in Europe.

Robusto

That reminds me of this:

2

Which illustrates one of the flaws of how some people use graphs poorly to present data.

@M.A.R. I guess the Polish pedestrian doesn't really go anywhere, huh?

M.A.R.

Everyone is running away from the Polish

Except giant Latvians

Which seem a bit small there

Robusto

01:24

Them Latvians ain't all they're cracked up to be. Or maybe they're just afraid of their giant women.

M.A.R.

I know you hate memes but

That Reddit thread was filled with Dutch swearing, heh

Robusto

THE OLDEST SONG IN THE WORLD

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tchrist

01:59

@M.A.R. Wow those all sound exactly alike!

@M.A.R. The poles seem not be pedestrianizing at all.

Funny how most of them have no shoes.

No wonder they call it the Ocean-sea, or the water hemisphere.

It's almost like "ocean" is just as much of a political imposition as "continent" is.

We're really yucky now.

tchrist

02:26

Smells like a campfire outside.

Robusto

03:59

@tchrist Some call it Earthsea.

@tchrist Clear here.

But PM2.5 is at 79 now. Weird.

PM10 at 51.

CowperKettle

06:15

> The information contained in this document, particularly unpublished data, is the property or under control of CompanyName Ltd., and is provided to you in confidence for review.

What is the exact meaning of for review? Does it always mean "so that you read and provide your verdict or opinion on it", or maybe it can sometimes/often mean "so that you read and get acquainted with the document"?

I'm not sure how to translate this phrase into Russian. We have "для проверки" (to read and give your verdict) and "для ознакомления" (to get acquainted without providing any verdict or comments).

Would this be a good question for the main site?

I found out that iPods are still sold. I wonder why on earth would anybody buy them. They look just like iPhone 5 without the phoning function.

One could buy an Android phone with a huge memory bank for the same money, and use it as a player.

Faheem Mitha

@Robusto Yes, Indian women are small. Except the film actresses. They're not. But they also don't look much like typical Indian women.

CowperKettle

06:32

They will catch up, probably, with better nutrition that's now available.

Faheem Mitha

@CowperKettle You need money for better nutrition. The nutrition is available, but not the money.

CowperKettle

India's economy is growing at a mindboggling pace. And there is so much sunlight. You could install a lot of photovoltaic stations and have lots of energy.

Faheem Mitha

Much of India doesn't know where it's next meal is coming from.

CowperKettle

And there are mountains and mountain rivers. You can install wind stations and hydrostations.

In 2018, the economy grew by 7%. That's just huge.

Faheem Mitha

@CowperKettle Actually, I'm not sure what news you're reading, but the Indian economy is on the verge of collapse. And the govt is bankrupt. In large part because of its own incompetence. They recently lowered corporate taxes. And deleted a tax on the super rich. 2%, I think.

CowperKettle

06:35

@FaheemMitha Very sad to hear that!

@FaheemMitha That's bad. I feel that taxes should be progressive, with the richer contributing more, and the poorer contributing less.

Faheem Mitha

@CowperKettle This whole "economy growing" thing is a bunch of malarkey. It mostly means that rich people are growing richer.

That's true everywhere, not just India. But it's particularly grotesque in India.

CowperKettle

In Russia, richer are also growing super-rich, the economy has been severely skewed. Something should be done about this.

Faheem Mitha

The Indian govt was supposed to give the states some money as a share of GST, per a pre-existing arrangement. They told the states they didn't have the money.

That's some quality financial management, right there.

CowperKettle

Maybe some countries are just too huge, that makes them harder to govern and adapt.

Faheem Mitha

@CowperKettle People are trying. But other people persist in voting for dangerous idiots.

@CowperKettle That's not particularly the problem in India. Yes, it's big. But there are many other problems.

CowperKettle

06:38

nods

Faheem Mitha

But in general, I agree, large countries are harder to manage.

CowperKettle

What I know is that translators in Russia never agree to work for Indian translation bureaus, because for some reason Indian companies tend to cheat and swindle them out of their salaries. They have generally the worst reputation in the translation labor market.

Faheem Mitha

@CowperKettle Yes, fraud is a huge thing in India. But I would have thought it was a problem in Russia too.

CowperKettle

Yes, Russian companies also try to get your labor on the cheap. )))

Faheem Mitha

None of this stuff for India (at least) is new. The RSS-backed govt had made things worse, but these are all pre-existing conditions.

I suppose the same is true for other countries.

I think clean/green energy is growing quite fast in India, for obvious reasons. But I don't know the specifics.

I know that dreadful Adani creature's company is in the news a lot, especially recently.

Adani Green Energy, I think.

CowperKettle

12:20

@FaheemMitha I read great news about how they install solar panels on top of railway carriages, so that the passengers can have air conditioning and lights coming from solar energy.

That's great. In Russia, the sun would be too weak I'm afraid.

CowperKettle

13:54

I am generally not tired enough to fall down after 30 km, but there's one problem. My muscles below the knees start to feel tired out.

Maybe there are special exercises to build up your calf muscles and the muscles that move the feet, in order to extend the running range.

I feel that after about 35 km it would be very, very hard to run. The lower parts of the legs lose their ability to spring and cushion. The pace becomes more shuffling, so to speak.

Robusto

14:14

@CowperKettle There are such exercises. Also make sure you stretch those muscles, and not just before a run.

Understand also that if you don't work up to a distance like 30 km—a considerable distance for a runner—you can easily get an injury.

When your muscles are exhausted they're not holding the knee and other joints in their proper alignment, and that spells trouble.

RegDwigнt

@M.A.R. haha that is fucking brilliant.

I've heard of that quote before, maybe somewhere early this spring? Why is it making the rounds again.

skullpatrol

It's been a long year?

RegDwigнt

Obviously the author has never been to any Bavarian village or some such. Where the architecture is every bit as feminist as they desire, but the woman is supposed to do the dishes and raise the kids and shut the fuck up on any matters important.

tchrist

Am I just being obtuse here, or do we really not know what this person is asking about?

Welcome to our site! Don't forget to see our tour and How to Ask. I'm afraid that your question does not contain enough context for us to be able to provide a sensible answer. What sort of answer might you give someone who asked what the build time or building time happened to be? Do you mean the overall duration it takes for something to get built? Do you mean the single point in time at which construction will begin? Do you mean the time of day shown by a particular building's clock? Something else? Please edit your post to tell us. — tchrist ♦ 2 mins ago

RegDwigнt

@skullpatrol it could've been longer. They should've extended the quarantine for another twenty months. Imagine all the stuff we could've accomplished in that much free time.

tchrist

14:28

@RegDwigнt That should be nine quarantines (40 × 9 = 360).

RegDwigнt

@tchrist certainly you've been around for long enough to foresee the plot twist of them not even knowing it themselves.

Robusto

@tchrist I thought build time was the time it took for your project to compile.

tchrist

@Robusto No kidding.

RegDwigнt

You can also build time out of LEGO. Can be a verb.

And I visit this building time and time again.

tchrist

Or save it in a bottle.

Robusto

14:30

@RegDwigнt Them's all about the KKK: Kinder, Küche, Kirche.

skullpatrol

With a message

tchrist

“Which sense of time? Which sense of build? Which sense of building?”

RegDwigнt

@Robusto very much so.

Bonus fact: every break room in every German office reads "K&K" at the door. Kaffee und Kuchen.

tchrist

@Robusto The user has had an SO account for two years now. It might well be the compilation duration.

RegDwigнt

I need to reboot this machine or at least the browser because half the words are disappearing again.

Robusto

14:32

As a further elucidation, build time is the time you get to fuck off and go online to answer dumb questions on EL&U.

tchrist

@RegDwigнt The top halves or the bottom halves?

'Are you stealing those LCDs?' 'Yeah, but I'm doing it while my code compiles.'

Robusto

That is the reference, yes.

I never actually got into any sword fights, though

tchrist

You mean there's a difference between saying time builds like a pyramid and saying time builds with a stopwatch?

Robusto

> In Tokyo, trains have carriages set aside at particular times for women, disabled people, children and carers.

That smacks of "separate but equal" I think.

tchrist

@RegDwigнt Which is why German Scrabble games are always so heiss coring.

@Robusto My unreflected reflex is to to be unsure whether that's so.

Robusto

14:43

I wonder about lumping women together with disabled people.

Is being female a disability?

Perhaps.

skullpatrol

Depends

Robusto

It is when it comes to peeing outdoors.

RegDwigнt

@Robusto which Latin American country is it that just has separate carriages for women? Not Saudi Arabia, mind. Latin America.

tchrist

What's a carer's vulnerability here?

RegDwigнt

I think it might be Mexico, actually.

Robusto

14:45

@RegDwigнt IDK.

@tchrist Having to ride herd over children?

tchrist

@RegDwigнt They've invoked the ancient enchantment, Circle of Protection from Machismo, Ten-Yard Radius.

RegDwigнt

There's not too many of them that have underground trains to begin wtih. And in the video I saw it was the metro.

tchrist

@Robusto Childcare not eldercare? What about zookeepers?

Robusto

Search me.

RegDwigнt

@tchrist everyone observes the segregation, mind. You try and cross the line on the platform, you get beat up by furious men and women alike.

tchrist

14:47

@RegDwigнt In Japan or Mexico?

RegDwigнt

Mexico. Japan is for Rob to handle.

This chat room observes strict segregation, too.

tchrist

awaits nipped in the bud

Segregation is next to sacramentation.

Robusto

Actually, it's probably a good idea, considering the すけべ behavior that goes on on the Tokyo subway system.

tchrist

And now we know how to say wanking in Japanese.

Robusto

More like frottage. Train cars are too packed for wanking, I suspect.

RegDwigнt

14:52

МексЭтноЭксп. День 3. Метро Мехико. Селфи 29 лет спустя

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There you go. Link to timestamp.

Mexico City.

Robusto

すけべ just means "lewd" or "perverse." It is a scolding term.

RegDwigнt

The first two and the last two carriages on any train are reserved for women.

That guy with the blue hair has visited every country and territory in existence. The only Russian who has done so so far. He comments that the only places he remembers that had something similar were India and the Arab Emirates.

Robusto

@RegDwigнt I guess that makes the four-car trains the best.

Also those with fewer than four cars.

RegDwigнt

The downside, as the lady comments, is that if you want a free seat, fuck you cuz other women don't care about giving you theirs. You want gentlemenly behaviour, you have to ride with the gents.

Robusto

RegDwigнt

14:58

Why yes, I don't mind if I do.

Robusto

One may suppose that pouring potato chips on your crotch while looking at porn mags is a form of masturbation.

RegDwigнt

To be fair, in most Japanese homes you wouldn't have the space.

You kinda do need the trains for that.

Robusto

@RegDwigнt Same for the subway, at least in rush hour.

RegDwigнt

Then the image is fake news!

OMG.

tchrist

15:10

@Robusto Jack in the Box for the win.

Robusto

15:21

@tchrist That's like saying E. Coli ftw.

Faheem Mitha

15:42

@CowperKettle Do you have a link? I've not heard of anything like this.

CowperKettle

16:18

> A 2019 poll made by Center for the Governance of Change at IE University in Spain showed that 25% of citizens from selected European countries are somewhat or totally in favor of letting an artificial intelligence make important decisions about the running of their country.

@FaheemMitha No, I read it long time ago, this summer))

Faheem Mitha

@Robusto In Bombay there are separate train carriages and sometimes entire trains just for women.

Possibly that is the case across India, but I don't know.

I believe this is somewhat unusual internationally. I've never encountered anything like this in the West, but I don't travel much.

@CowperKettle Ok.

They call them "Ladies Specials". And they apparently exist because assaults on women in Bombay trains are so common (or used to be). Maybe they still aren't. I don't know.

RegDwigнt

16:51

2

Q: What is the most vulgar word one could use when describing "LIFE" and a phrase for an "ALL-HATING GOD"

I am writing a play and have reached the conclusion where the main character utters a soliloquy of just how "despicably stupid" the concept of "living" and reaching the heights of "happiness" is. Everything has lead up to this most severe moment and thus I am in need of some personal insight. I w...

Certainly the most vulgar word you could use when describing X is the most vulgar word you can think of, period.

If I am writing a play, about matters as grand as God and fate and life itself, no less, and I am not aware of the existence of any vulgar words, surely I should not be in the business of writing plays, but in the business of reading a dictionary.

Life is a cunt.

There you go. Easy.

RegDwigнt

17:13

@tchrist nice try, flat earther! We all know your capital is in Colorado.

On that note, here's a cool recent video:

In Search Of A Flat Earth

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And here's just the experiment alone, with additional footage and more in-depth explanation:

The Minnewanka Curve Experiment [2K/1440p]

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It's really quite amazing. I never realized there was a place on Earth where you could see the curvature of the globe with your naked eye just by doing a couple situps.

Cerberus

Or you could just climb any tallish building near the sea?

Like, oh, a lighthouse?

RegDwigнt

Yes, sure.

But then the movement is not as smooth, and you keep looking away at the stairs and everything.

When you do situps, you can stay focused on a tree or a boat throughout. And see how the visible part of it smoothly increases and decreases in size as you go.

Also, if you look at the maths, the beauty of this particular spot is that the other shore is just far enough away that the difference in the field of view is that of an adult person, but not any further away, meaning that climbing a tower would not change how much you can see of the opposite beach.

It would not reveal any more of the hidden thing, you'd just see it from higher above.

CowperKettle

17:29

@FaheemMitha No, in Russia there are no specialized carriages for women. Some 4-person compartments in long-distance trains are strictly for women, but that is a feature, for those who prefer it.

Faheem Mitha

@CowperKettle I didn't specifically mention Russia, but good to know.

The trains I mentioned are a regular thing, and are fairly visible. I've accidentally got into them on a number of occasions. People yell at you. It's quite annoying.

I haven't travelled in Bombay trains for a while, even before the pandemic happened, so my knowledge may be out of date.

CowperKettle

17:46

There was a horrible story in India several years back, when a girl was severely raped on a bus.

So maybe it's a way to protect women.

Faheem Mitha

@CowperKettle That sort of thing happens here all the time. It's also likely it's severely under-reported for a number of reasons.

Obviously, good statistics are hard to come by anywhere, but India is something else.

@CowperKettle If you mean the special trains, clearly it is.

tchrist

18:20

0

A: Is there such a thing as a future infinitive in English?

Future Infinitives? I don’t mean to detract from the clarity and correctness of Peter Shor’s answer. You should use what he said to use here. I’d like to address the theoretical notion of “future infinitives” in English. Mind you, Ancient Latin did have infinitives inflected for tense and voice, ...

My work here is done.

Faheem Mitha