English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Robusto

00:03

17

A: How would you define "Fluent" level in English?

For an answer to this question, I will refer you to Jack Seward, who covers this topic specifically in his book Japanese in Action. Although he is talking about Japanese, the same things are true of any language, including English: To be accurately judged fluent in [a language], I believe a [...

This is a pretty good way to measure fluency, IMO.

If you can do all that, you don't need a free online fluency test.

RegDwigнt

@Robusto I've forgotten so many things, so maybe I could. Just certainly not on the violin, I don't think.

Here's a fact about life on this planet. It took him less than 16 years to get there. But it would take him more than another 16 years to find even just one woman who'd give a damn.

I remember him bemoaning that in a NYT interview. Between the lines, but rather bitterly.

Robusto

00:19

@RegDwigнt This is about how long it took for me to get together with my wife. There are no guarantees. no matter who you are.

CowperKettle

@Xanne In terms of the strength of profanities uttered by the commenter, it pales in comparison with the accident in Tuymen ))

> On her first parachute jump, Anna Ivanovna, a teacher of Russian, was flabbergasted, amazed, smitten, stricken and exhilarated, yet she was screaming out quite different words.

A Russian joke.

Xanne

00:38

@CowperKettle In fact the crane accidents on you-tube are almost astronaut-cool in verbal response.

But I would not recognize Russian profanity.

CowperKettle

Russia's Defense Minister said yesterday that smartphones are the main enemy of Russia, and that Russia is suffering from excessive consumerism. Incidentally, he owns a palace that costs 18 million dollars, funded by money stolen from Russian taxpayers. In a country where 50% of citizens earn less than 600 dollars a month.

It's beyond good and evil, it is surreal.

Had such journalist investigaion appeared in some other country, I think the whole country would have went on the streets in protest, but Russians just swallow it all silently.

Cerberus

@CowperKettle Looks...Chinese?

@M.A.R. Yeah you seem pretty fluent.

CowperKettle

@Cerberus Yes, because he hales from Tuva, a Buddhist region occupied by the Soviet Union in 1944.

Cerberus

I see.

CowperKettle

00:53

It's curious what while fighting off an invasion of Hitler, the Soviet Union was occuping new lands itself. It was a puppet state dominated by the USSR, and then we decided just to take it.

Tuva

Tuva (; Russian: Тува́) or Tyva (Tuvan: Тыва), officially the Tyva Republic (Russian: Респу́блика Тыва́, tr. Respublika Tyva, IPA: [rʲɪˈspublʲɪkə tɨˈva]; Tuvan: Тыва Республика, Tyva Respublika [tʰɯˈʋa resˈpʰuplika]), is a federal subject of Russia (a republic, also defined in the Constitution of the Russian Federation as a state).The Tuvan republic lies at the geographical center of Asia, in southern Siberia. The republic borders the Altai Republic, the Republic of Khakassia, Krasnoyarsk Krai, Irkutsk Oblast, and the Republic of Buryatia in Russia and Mongolia to the south. It has a population...

Another curious fact is that there is still no railroad connection of Tuva with the rest of Russia.

Construction of the first railroad line was launched with great fanfare in 2011, but they built only 1 km of track and stopped, and have been postponing it ever since.

Robusto

01:32

@CowperKettle Is this because Tuva has a different gauge in its railroads than Russia does? IIRC, Russian always had a wider gauge than the rest of Europe.

CowperKettle

01:43

@Robusto I think it must be due to the mountainous terrain in Tuva

Yes, the Russian gage is a bit wider, but Indian is wider.

Hitler planned a railroad with a gauge of 3000 mm, twice that of the current Russian gauge

Cerberus

02:02

You mean 3 dam?

Captain Bohemian

06:30

hunger trouble

CowperKettle

07:29

e1.ru/news/spool/news_id-69455383.html

In my region, 12.4% of people have immunity to covid, according to a latest study.

Only 6% of the people with immunity noticed any signs of disease, and 94% said they did not notice anything.

M.A.R.

@Robusto I'm flattered, thank you! But I'm only looking for one because we might start a discussion group with the goal of teaching some of my Persian friends some English, and I need a quick and dirty way to estimate their fluency

@CowperKettle he has given himself to his people. Is it so wrong to ask for a small favor of an 18 million dollar palace?

@Robusto how difficult is the average newspaper in print? I mean, I read a lot of online articles

All in all, the first three shouldn't be a problem. For the exam criteria I feel like I'm almost there, probably quite not 100%, and some of it isn't even language-related

CowperKettle

08:10

> Up to 35% of COVID-positive athletes who play for Big Ten schools developed the heart condition myocarditis, the Centre Daily Times reported Thursday.

medscape.com/viewarticle/936897

Looks like we have a gravely inefficient diagnostic system in Russia. There must be a similar wave of covid-related conditions, but they remain undiagnosed or underdiagnosed.

CowperKettle

08:58

Palace built by Putin's friend Miller, the chief manager of the state-owned Gazprom corporation.

The state ownership database has classified the owner details.

Journalists have discovered that the ownership has been transferred to a Cyprus company controlled by Miller.

M.A.R.

CowperKettle

He earns 30 000 dollars a day, on a state job.

I know a Gazprom engineer in Yekaterinburg who earns 500 dollars a month. Barely making ends meet.

M.A.R.

Don't almost all politicians earn that much?

CowperKettle

He is not a politician, he is a manager of a state corporation, he never ran for elections, never participated in debates etc.

M.A.R.

Granted, it's not legitimized by a state job, but the economic disparity would still be there

CowperKettle

09:03

Yes, I think that if a politician has a business on the side, he has the right to earn a lot.

But there must be some mechanism to prevent him from using his position. Like free press and a judicial system that would allow launching investigations.

M.A.R.

So he is the manager of a state corporation?

CowperKettle

Yes, he was appointed by Putin, his friend.

M.A.R.

@CowperKettle well yeah, that's where the similarities come short

CowperKettle

Head of the Russian State Space Research corporation, Rogozin, has twice the salary of the head of NASA, while the salaries of Russian space engineers are laughable.

450 thousand bucks vs. 250 thousand bucks

M.A.R.

Removing the economical gaps since Lenin

There are no gaps if everyone is poor, with a few statistical anomalies

Matt E. Эллен

09:36

lol

RegDwigнt

09:47

0

Q: Could anyone please help in improving the following sentence?

I am highly motivated to be part of the “prototype of very smart mobile robot” project and to invest my Python, and C++ programming experiences more – and start my thesis based on, besides, concerning "image classification model building via neural networks" project I am passionate to keep in tou...

Good question. I think the answer is to replace "Python and C++" with "concert grand", and "image classification model building via neural networks" with "composition of music in the galant style".

But maybe there's other improvements that I'm not seeing, so I'm hesitant to post an answer straight away.

Matt E. Эллен

mmmm, those tags

CowperKettle

11:30

> Floppy disks are like Jesus. They died to become the icon of saving.

CowperKettle

11:59

In hypothyroidism levothyroxine sodium is usually taken for life.

I feel that I need the comma after "In hypothyroidism", but I can't explain it.

There must be some rule on this.

RegDwigнt

12:10

Trump: Americans Who Died in War Are "Losers" and "Suckers"

2

A delightful little article from The Atlantic.

@Robusto ^

CowperKettle

12:22

The Buggles - Video Killed the Radio Star - Hitler and Stalin

►

> On at least two occasions since becoming president, according to three sources with direct knowledge of his views, Trump referred to former President George H. W. Bush as a “loser” for being shot down by the Japanese as a Navy pilot in World War II.

It's hard to believe. If this is true, it's depressing that he is still supported by many.

Mitch

@Robusto For me, just #2 would be sufficient for fluency. All the others seem geared towards academics or business people, who are notoriously bad at being able to order at a cafe. And the phone call removes all the real world cues that one could use to fake a meaningful conversation.

Jan 27 at 14:05, by Mitch

I don't want to say they're total idiots, but if I'm being honest, yeah, they're total idiots.

Robusto

12:37

@RegDwigнt Nothing I didn't know. He is the absolute worst.

@CowperKettle What @Mitch said. They are people whose souls mirror his: ugly, hateful, ignorant, full of spite.

CowperKettle

Maybe he was saying "losers" as a kind of joke?

Robusto

@CowperKettle How do you joke about war dead on Memorial Day? What kind of person does that?

Mitch

I guess I'm naive but I thought that people, from when they are toddlers and have awful violent and selfish thoughts, learn how to manage their anger and so are respectable people as adults.

Likewise society, with sufficient communication, also learns from the further past, that killing and stuff makes people unhappy, and moves aways from that more and more.

But the things that politicians say? It's like they are gangsters, anything in the moment for the smallest of perceived wins.

@CowperKettle "It was a joke" is the excuse of a 5 year old.

Even if it is true that it was a joke.

Robusto

@Mitch Which #2? I think you might have to read the whole thing.

Mitch

This #2:

> 2. Speak in [the language] on the telephone, as a test of accent.

Terran Swett

12:51

english.stackexchange.com/questions/545648/… – Is there disagreement as to whether the word is "bababadal[...]toohoohoordenenthurnuk" (just one word, written with only letters) or "bababadal[...]toohoohoordenenthur – nuk" (two words, with an en dash in between)?

I'm gonna write a comment.

M.A.R.

13:05

@RegDwigнt ha, he's alive, he's winning, they're not alive and they're not winning

Classic Trump. I wo . . . I shouldn't have expected otherwise.

CowperKettle

@Mitch I wonder why in Trump's close circle there were (allegedly) people who would later disclose such negative details of his personal remarks.

And if they were not close associates of Trump, is he so dim as to make remarks that would put him in bad light? A politician must always keep track of his words so as to present himself in the best light.

M.A.R.

@CowperKettle what about the latter quotes in the linked article, about discrediting McCain's veteran status?

That's probably verifiable or even public.

CowperKettle

@M.A.R. Oh, I've only read the beginning.

I really should be doing some other stuff.

M.A.R.

Well, I think I remember similar leaks about Obama or Bush before him, so Trump is not the only president whose 'aides' leak such news.

CowperKettle

I don't love Trump enough to be on his side in this argument but what if it's all part of the general stand-off.

M.A.R.

13:11

Except he's shameless and this shamelessness has passed for courage.

CowperKettle

> But Trump, on that same trip, asked aides, “Who were the good guys in this war?”

Come on, he must have been a schoolboy once.

M.A.R.

@CowperKettle sure, I'm just digesting this in my mind as you are.

CowperKettle

They usually teach about WWI in school

Robusto

@CowperKettle He supports Putin's dictatorsip. That should be enough for you to loathe him.

CowperKettle

@Robusto I know. )))

I don't like him because he killed Obama's healthcare. I think that all people should get healthcare, if possible.

M.A.R.

13:13

@CowperKettle He said in a press conference about a battle that happened before airplanes were invented that 'our great air force landed on those grounds'.

Mitch

@M.A.R. The remark about McCain was all over the public media in the summer of 2016 before the election.

Robusto

@CowperKettle And think of all the many things about which he's ignorant.

He had people take his college entrance exams for him, remember?

M.A.R.

And he said the way the USA (?) handled Spanish flu in 1918 ended World War 2.

Robusto

An ignorant, malignant pustule.

M.A.R.

He's so alike his supporters that the camaraderie is unmistakable.

CowperKettle

13:15

The former Ukrainian president, the one who fled to Russia, once wrote in an official form that he was filling out, that he is a "proffesor". He was called proffesor on the Internet after that. That was LOLable. In his youth, he was a petty thief, by the way.

M.A.R.

Haha two days ago someone on a public chat was bragging like "Im in canada a dentist and i pay 3200 dollars every week"

I kinda regret the depth of the burn after I told him 'I doubt a dentist in Canada can't tell the difference between paying and getting paid'

Canada is the daydream of the petty sort of Iranians that are ashamed to call themselves by their nationality

theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/10/…

Wow, this man's fuck-ups are so insurmountable that you get the sort of dizziness after a blow to the temple. It's like the screw-ups cease to exist simply due to their sheer volume

Even the Iranian government cannot possibly aspire to be this inconsistent, this unreal

> Trump has been, for the duration of his presidency, fixated on staging military parades, but only of a certain sort. In a 2018 White House planning meeting for such an event, Trump asked his staff not to include wounded veterans, on grounds that spectators would feel uncomfortable in the presence of amputees. “Nobody wants to see that,” he said.

Cerberus

How considerate of him.

M.A.R.

It's just a misspelling for bababadalgharaghkakamminarronnkonnbronntonnerronntuonnthunnt‌rovarrhounawnskawnto‌ohoohoordenenthur- nuk. — John Lawler 11 hours ago

Mitch

13:31

@CowperKettle He is not a politician (the presidency was his only elected government position). So he doesn't have experience in being held accountable for things he's said. His experience is as a real estate salesman and more recently as a TV personality. So he is rewarded for 1) getting the sale by any means (ie not bothering with reality) and 2) being outrageous. He has years of experience in both. So saying something outrageous about a veteran fits well.

Also, re 'keeping track'... he doesn't care. (and there's copious evidence of that)

M.A.R.

I vaguely recall some set of beliefs that stated everyone has existed since the beginning, and we forget the stuff while we're born or something

Mitch

@M.A.R. Haha, same for Americans abroad.

M.A.R.

@Mitch they just want maple syrup

Iran retains 1st place for brain drain

It used to be a buzzword a decade ago when people weren't trying to get out of an ever deepening economical crater

Mitch

@CowperKettle We aren't psychic and know what's in people's heads, only what they tell us and what we can infer from similar words for other people. Some of this 'inner circle' are people like Michael Cohen (his personal lawyer), and his motivation is probably because he wasn't treated well by Trump (even though Cohen tried to do a lot for Trump...I gather this from what Cohen has said).

M.A.R.

The lickspittles have until November to realize they're of no importance to him because they're not him

Mitch

13:40

For early cabinet members like Mattis and Kelly, they are actual public servants (as military) and not really long term 'inner circle' people (though the Cabinet is ostensibly some kind of inner circle). They have no personal connection with Trump. Their motivation is following leadership and honor and similar things, so it is very surprising that they were negative about a previous boss of theirs (which means I read it that Trump was -much- worse than they are willing to say).

M.A.R.

How he can keep a straight face and make a scapegoat of everyone but himself for the 2016 election interference report is something I wouldn't ever be able to fathom, let alone do. That's why he's the POTUS I guess.

Mitch

@M.A.R. Why doesn't the Iranian government make it less easy to leave then?

@M.A.R. His family is very supportive of him.

M.A.R.

@Mitch I have no idea. Or maybe they have, but it's evidently not been effective. I think nobody cares at this point.

Mitch

@M.A.R. The maple syrup is pretty good.

Cerberus

@M.A.R. Plato.

M.A.R.

13:43

@Mitch it's really cute and cuddly how six of the twelve notable speakers in the RNC were named Trump. It's like a B romcom

Mitch

@M.A.R. I feel like aI vaguely remember the Chinese govt used to only allow one member of a family (like not the wife) to go abroad to study, to make sure they came back.

M.A.R.

Freaky Family, a Disney production

Mitch

@Cerberus What did that guy know? He was just guessing.

@M.A.R. That's a big tell to anybody who thinks.

M.A.R.

@Mitch well, now whenever they hear I've been a good boi and nice pharmacy student, the next thing almost everyone utters is "so why don't you go continue your studies abroad?"

Mitch

but really, are voters thinking any more?

M.A.R.

13:45

As if it's just one of the normal choices for progress in academia.

Mitch

@M.A.R. That seems pretty classic (at least from the emigres I see here)

M.A.R.

@Mitch Thinking has a liberal bias.

Well, even the pharmacy faculty in this small dingy corner of the world has three top 1 percent academics. I could probably try to be like one of them in the future.

You don't really need Harvard or Oxford for that

Mitch

14:18

Harvard and Oxford are for prestige subjects like literature and physics. There are much better places for doctors and engineers.

hm... let me take that back a bit...Harvard is pretty well known for doctor stuff too.

But anyway, anybody going into any technical field is already 1%, after that it's deciding on the .01% for HMS which leaves a lot of room for pretty durn good.

Matt E. Эллен

15:01

Her Majesty's Ship

CowperKettle

16:01

I have a joke about time travel, but you didn't like it.

CowperKettle

16:42

CowperKettle

17:03

> Multisystem inflammatory syndrome in children (MIS-C), believed to be linked to COVID-19, damages the heart to such an extent that some children will need lifelong monitoring and interventions, said the senior author of a medical literature review published Sept. 4 in EClinicalMedicine, a journal of The Lancet.

M.A.R.

@CowperKettle is the joke just that Shrek is "somebody"?

That he's too big to be one body?

Nike Dattani

18:23

@M.A.R. Are you in every chat room?

M.A.R.

18:35

@NikeDattani I'm not picky about where to spread my profound wisdom

CowperKettle

@M.A.R. The song at that moment starts with "somebody"))

M.A.R.

Ha OK

SmokeDetector

18:51

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in body, bad keyword in title, bad phone number in body, bad phone number in title, potentially bad keyword in title (394): HOW TO JOIN THE ILLUMINATI +27718688742? by medi666 on english.SE

Robusto

19:42

@NikeDattani It's rather presumptuous to say that only the thing you believe to be true is actually true and all the other answers are wrong. And look, you got in for the min bid. If you really believe what you say, you should have posted a higher bounty.

Nike Dattani

Hi @Rubiksmoose

Rubiksmoose

Howdy!

Nike Dattani

I suppose you came here because of a flag, but the flag was already taken care of?

I suppose @Spevacus is in the same boat.

Spevacus

Heh, yeah. Flags are like fireworks for chat.SE. Seems like things are just fine here though :)

How're we all doing today?

Rubiksmoose

Kind of! I actually handled the flag. I just wanted to drop by and gently suggest that that conversation will probably not be productive to continue and definitely not in that tone.

tl;dr Be Nice!

@Spevacus Or maybe fire alarms :)

Mitch

19:52

@NikeDattani Dude...you're giving a bounty to the one answer that is -way way way- out of the mainstream.

Nike Dattani

@Rubiksmoose I totally agree! I didn't reply to the user. I'm actually brand new to this room.

Rubiksmoose

Fire alarms as a result of fireworks sometimes

@NikeDattani Sorry one of your first experiences had to be that :(

Nike Dattani

The user that I flagged has a 141k reputation on this site

Rubiksmoose

But also welcome to the wonderful world of SE chat :)

Mitch

I would say 'wrong in almost all circumstances' but that answer specified the very very narrow circumstances where one might use 'codes'.

Nike Dattani

19:54

Thank you Rubiksmoose :)

@Mitch howdy :)

Mitch

@NikeDattani hey.

Nike Dattani

The beauty of bounties, is that the person sacrificing their reputation irreversibly, can give it to whoever they want.

Mitch

@NikeDattani Sure, but if you're being of good-faith and sincerely giving a bounty, the expectation is that you think the given answers are mostly wrong. And it is clear to any native speaker that the highest voted ones, the ones that say 'codes' is wrong, are the correct answers.

Nike Dattani

You can't get your reputation back. You can't extend it for longer if no one answers within 7 days. You can't change your bounty message. You can't change the bounty amount without adding a new one. There's a lot of restrictions, but the one thing the user can do it award it to the answer they want to.

@Mitch I guess I don't fall into the category of "any".

Mitch

What @Robusto and I are telling you is that it seems a little weird to say that you're going to give a bounty to the one answer that is obviously wrong.

Nike Dattani

19:58

@Mitch Well Robusto said "It's rather presumptuous to say that only the thing you believe to be true is actually true" and here you are saying that I am "obviously wrong".

Mitch

He was being more tactful, saying that maybe you should consider that it is possible you may be mistaken.

I don't doubt that there are very small domains where people regularly use 'I wrote some codes' (like the ones given by Martin), but they are a very small community and one I am not used to (and one that it seems many people are not used to as given by the voting).

Nike Dattani

@Mitch I think you would benefit from being a bit more careful. I see you are a room owner. It was advised by a mod that we don't carry on the conversation that you're trying to continue. Also if you saw the message that got deleted, you'd probably agree that pinging Robusto to come back is not a great idea. In 8 minutes I'm being picked up by a friend, will try to reply in a few hours.

@Mitch This is exactly why I disagree with all the other answers. They are saying that it is "wrong" to use the word "codes", but it is not. If it is wrong, show me the legislation that makes it illegal in whatever jurisdiction.

Mitch

@NikeDattani "benefit from being more careful"? That seems a bit threatening. I am just discussing language.

Nike Dattani

It is not meant to be a threat, sorry if it sounded that way. Of course there's nothing I can threaten about here.

Cerberus

@NikeDattani Welcome to the room!

Nike Dattani

20:05

Maybe I could have written "we would benefit" instead of "you would benefit".

Mitch

@NikeDattani Oh. That's not how language works. If you hung around here more often you might get a better perspective.

Nike Dattani

@Cerberus Thank you, I just got a message from my friend who's picking me up, he's 5 minutes early. I have to go!

Cerberus

OK bye! Do come again.

Mitch

@NikeDattani Come back and we can discuss at length

Cerberus

"At length"...to the impatient, you could not have expressed a graver threat!

Mitch

20:07

@Cerberus Is that another 'flaggable' offense I seem to have made?

Cerberus

@Mitch Yes, hereby consider yourself flagged.

Mitch

@Cerberus Done

Cerberus

You can pick rainbow or golden flag.

Mitch

I flagged all my messages

that guy is a jerk

Cerberus

Oh, well done, then you win.

Mitch

20:12

deserves all the flags

Cerberus

Quite so.

Mitch

@Cerberus I can choose my flag?

Cerberus

Sure.

Nobody said it had to be skull and daggers all the time.

Mitch

I keep looking for an emoji for the United Federation of Planets, but can't find one.

Cerberus

You could find an icon using Google Images?

Mitch

20:14

How do you make a new emoji? Is it Unicode? Do you have to pay some international consortium of computer people for the opportunity? Why hasn't Coca-Cola done it already?

@Cerberus But an emoji is like official man

Cerberus

@Mitch *official child

Adults don't use those smiley faces.

@Mitch Yes.

Gigili

@Mitch They're busy inventing yet another great product with zero sugar, zero water and zero fat.

It's difficult to avoid using emojis, especially when you often times are sarcastic.

Mitch

But anyway, @NikeDattani in sum: 1) there are count nouns and there are mass nouns: 'apple' is considered a count noun because you can say 'an apple' or 'the apple' or 'five apples'. For a mass noun, you can't really do that. eg 'rice'. You can't say 'a rice' (you say 'a grain of rice) or 'five rices', but you can say 'the rice' (the labels 'count' and 'mass noun' should be clear by now.

@NikeDattani and 2) a single word doesn't always just have one meaning. 'post' can mean the mail, or it can mean 'a thin solid cylindrical object sticking out of the ground' (they're actually related etymologically but that actually doesn't matter at all (that's maybe pt #3?))

@NikeDattani ooh another pt #3 instead) different groups of people or the same person in different contexts can use words differently or in slightly different ways (this may be stating the obvious, but sometimes it is not obvious when you can't tell what accent somebody has).

@NikeDattani so for 'code', it has more than one meaning. for most software engineers, 'code' refers to a bunch of lines in a programming language, and is used as a mass noun. There is 'some code' and 'the code is broken', but you can't say (or better, it sounds really awful to say) 'I wrote some codes'.

@NikeDattani There is another meaning of 'code' where it is a count noun, namely in the context of encoding (not really software). eg each letter in the alphabet has a corresponding ASCII code, so you can say 'For this string of characters, what are the ASCII codes?'. That's perfectly fine.

@NikeDattani Martin's answer seems to be talking about one single context, 'optimization codes'. I can't tell if is the same meaning as programming code or like ASCII codes. Also, it sounds pretty weird to me if it is the programming kind of code.

@Cerberus Oh....you should see what adults really do with emojis.

@Gigili I'm sensing some feeling here, but I highly suspect it is just words.

@Cerberus **"...official, child'.

Cerberus

20:39

@Mitch No, thanks!

@Mitch I deliberately echoed your acommatism.

M.A.R.

20:57

@NikeDattani there's no legal or illegal in language. There is a best way, or number of ways, to communicate using a language, and there are other ways that will garner odd looks at best and heated language debates and chat flags at worst. Simply put, argumentum ad populum holds much more often in language. It would help if you provide the reason for your insistence, because what's really considered acceptable usage out there will not change based on a verdict in a chat or a site.

Nike Dattani

21:57

@Mitch The question was vague, and it would have been better if they wrote more than just one line. I agree that "lines of code" uses "code" as an uncountable noun, but also in the programming context code is synonymous with "computer program" whether or not you like it. It might even be the minority of computer programmers that agree with this usage being acceptable, but if there's several tens of millions of people that find it acceptable to use the word that way,

I think we can still debate, but it has to be in a friendlier tone. Not in a condescending one where I am told that I am "obviously wrong" and that "any native speaker" would disagree with me. I was born in an English speaking country and hold a PhD from the oldest English-speaking university in the world (Oxford) so I think it would be fair to include me in the group "any native speaker".

Cerberus

That's quite a stretch!

Nike Dattani

Here's the example that started it all, someone came on my site and wrote a comment about the word "codes" being incorrect, but it's not:

10

Q: Can I use two different codes?

Can I use one code for geometry optimization and another code for a single point calculation on that optimized geometry? Can one publish results like that?

density-functional-theory software geometry-optimization software-comparison

Cerberus

@NikeDattani Hmm I have to say it sounds wrong to me, as used there.

I would not say countable code is synonymous with programme.

Nike Dattani

@Cerberus it is not quite a stretch that people need to be friendlier than saying that i'm "obviously wrong" and that "any native speaker" would disagree with me, and keep in mind a 140k rep user wrote a message to me here which was immediately deleted by a mod, and probably ought to be enough for that user to get suspended or at least warned if they've never been before.

Cerberus

@NikeDattani I was responding to this: I was born in an English speaking country and hold a PhD from the oldest English-speaking university in the world (Oxford) so I think it would be fair to include me in the group "any native speaker". So...it was a little joke of mine.

Nike Dattani

22:04

@Cerberus Absolutely. When I wrote "computer program" I actually meant the same thing as "computer programme", the latter being more common in British English

Cerberus

What do you mean by absolutely?

> I'm going to install two programmes on your computer.

> ~~I'm going to install two codes on your computer.~~

Nike Dattani

Okay, so was it just sarcasm? I think we agree that not "any native English speaker" would disagree with me, since I'm a native English speaker?

Cerberus

Not sarcasm, just a joke.

Irony.

Nike Dattani

Okay I didn't quite follow what "that's quite a stretch" meant.

Cerberus

@NikeDattani Indeed.

Nike Dattani

22:07

Ok.

Cerberus

> ... so I think it would be fair to ... — That's quite a stretch!

Is how I intended it.

Nike Dattani

Now I see!

Cerberus

So I meant to reply to your final clause.

Nike Dattani

What I meant by "absolutely" was that I agreed with you, though now I see that I might have mis-interpreted it and you actually disagree with me!

Cerberus

But I can see it might have been unclear.

@NikeDattani Haha now it gets complicated...

6 mins ago, by Cerberus

I would not say countable code is synonymous with programme.

Is this unclear?

Nike Dattani

22:13

@M.A.R. This was my point, there's no illegal or legal in language, so if so many highly-educated native English speakers use the word that way, the people that disagree might benefit from having a more open mind (they don't need to have a more open mind, but I don't think they're gaining much from not having one).

@Cerberus Now I see why me saying "Absolutely" was confusing ;)

You were saying that "code" shall not be synonymous with "programme", but unfortunately it is, to much of the English-speaking world. It's not something I can change!

Cerberus

9 mins ago, by Cerberus

> ~~I'm going to install two codes on your computer.~~

How did you feel about these examples?

Nike Dattani

Well "synonyms" are rarely going to be exact inter-changeable replacements for each other.

For example a thesaurus will give 20 synonyms but they all have slightly different connotations or would be a more/less appropriate fit depending on the sentence.

Cerberus

All right.

Nike Dattani

I personally would not usually say "I'm going to install two codes on your computer", I'd probably use "programmes" instead.

Cerberus

Then I would say they are poor enough as synonyms not to deserve the word in this case.

Nike Dattani

22:18

I would not say it's wrong to use the word "codes" in that sentence though.

Cerberus

I would!

I would mark it as an error if one of my students wrote that, to be honest.

Nike Dattani

@Cerberus So you say it's "wrong" but I suppose you would have to accept that a lot of people would disagree.

I would mark it as a sub-optimal word choice.

^ I would not say it's wrong to say that you're installing the above codes.

Each of those 7 things is a code.

The bottom line here, is that "code" can and is frequently used as a countable noun, even in the programming context. I don't disagree that when talking about "lines of code" it can be used as an uncountable noun as well. In some contexts I would not use "code" as an uncountable noun. I think I'm done with spending time on this. There has not been one argument for why it needs to be unacceptable to use "codes" in that way.

Cerberus

@NikeDattani Well, aren't there always people who disagree?

@NikeDattani What, exactly, is the difference between wrong and suboptimal?

Nike Dattani

Sometimes it takes a lot of time before people change their mind on things, so I'm not going to spend too much time on this now. If a year from now you come back and say that I'm still "obviously wrong" then maybe we can talk about the reasons why or something, I'm not finding this debate to be very intellectually stimulating right now though.

@Cerberus The sentence was "a lot of people would disagree" not just "there are people who would disagree".

@Cerberus I haven't thought about that, but one difference is that if I was a student I would rather be told that my word choice is "suboptimal" than "wrong", and as a teacher I would rather use the word "suboptimal" than "wrong" when proofreading that specific sentence.

@Cerberus Thanks for chatting with me, and I do apologize if the language I used here came across a bit strong. I was told by a 140k rep user that I should have given a bigger bounty and was insulted for having a low rep on English.SE (told that since my rep here is so low, my opinions on the English language shouldn't count for much, or something like that... can't see it anymore since it's deleted),

even though my rep here might be low due to the fact that I've only posted a small number of times. I wouldn't be surprised if Margaret Atwood didn't have a high reputation here either, but she sure knows the English language! So the tone just started off in a really negative and condescending way, so I hope you don't blame me too much for using more harsh than normal language when trying to stand my ground against those people.

@Mitch see you next time :) Hopefully in more pleasant circumstances :)

M.A.R.

22:42

@NikeDattani yet a significant majority of a random selection of native speakers disagree. I think it may be fair to assume a very small number of native speakers assume your stance. "A significant majority of native speakers of English are of the opinion that 'codes' is wrong in almost every context." Do you agree with this? A native speaker or their cat could type "hhhhhhhhh" but it won't make that part of the English language.

And there's almost no ungrammatical utterance out there that you can't make grammatical with some use-mention voodoo.

Nike Dattani

@M.A.R. How about this. Those people that want to tell me that I'm wrong, can tell me their real names and what level of education they have and how many publications of theirs have been published in peer-reviewed English journals. Then we can talk more.

M.A.R.

So, what the users in this chat proposed was, if a word can be used 100 ways and 99 of them are as a mass noun, it's misleading to say the plural is something a native speaker would say.

Nike Dattani

My name's out in the open. You can find out whatever you want about me, probably even things that are too personal that I have no control to take offline.

M.A.R.

@NikeDattani making an argument of ethos are we. I think we can restrict this to logical arguments that wouldn't require a pissing contest. After all, a member of this discussion, me, has not published anything and is not even a native speaker of English. How that affects my judgement is left to be seen.

FWIW, Rob does teach linguistics I think, Mitch is Mitch, and Cerberus is a linguist

Nike Dattani

@M.A.R. Your English is superb. I have found you on the Tavern on Meta to be extremely witty and very skilled with wordplay :) I enjoy reading your words every time :)

M.A.R.

22:50

What I do know is "codes" has stood out as unnatural usage so much that whenever an SO curator is mimicking homework vampires, they call their questions "gimme teh codez"

Nike Dattani

So if you want to talk, I don't mind. But I do have to get started with other work.

True, but when they say "give me the codes", they usually mean "give me the appropriate code to solve this problem" right? What about if they were to ask "give me the codes" and by "codes" they mean "Gaussian and MOLPRO" :)

M.A.R.

@NikeDattani I should have been asleep two hours ago, but I just came online to see that the altercation had taken place, and I would regret it if you started out on the wrong foot in this chat. The regulars are very knowledgeable people, especially on issues of language, and their input is often valuable I've found. They're sometimes unnecessarily blunt, that much is true

Good night

Nike Dattani

@M.A.R. I didn't mean to make it sound like I was asking for a "pissing contest", but there are limits to how much time I want to spend arguing with people that I don't think are worth my time, and based on the types of arguments they were trying to use to say that I was "wrong", I'm simply not very interested. Believe me: Most people in my situation would not have engaged as much as I do. I'm a bit stubborn that I like to reply to every single person's message if they ping me.

But I was just trying to set a bit of a boundary there, that I don't really want to spend too much more time on this with them. I'm happy to talk to you.

Good night. I did answer your comment: chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/55451969#55451969. If you want to talk more about it tomorrow (hopefully not too much!) then that reply of mine might be a starting point.

Cerberus

23:14

@NikeDattani Oh, don't worry.

I saw the comment; he's just like that, can be blunt but doesn't really mean it personally.

Nike Dattani

It's not a random sample, they're SE users, and as you said there's so many people here using the word "codes" when they mean "give me the code" and if it's annoyed people enough they may jump to attacking people who say "codes" even if its in a different programming context. You talk about "significant majority" but a significant majority uses US English and yet I believe British English is still acceptable.

Finally, we're not talking about a case where there's one native speaker saying "hhhhhhh". We're talking about a case where a rather large number of people use the word "codes" in a c…

@Cerberus He has 140k rep, and trying to put someone down due to the amount of rep that they have, or telling them that they "should" have given a bigger bounty, is a clear CoC violation and if he's just like that all the time, I'm surprised.

Cerberus

@NikeDattani That last sentence is perplexing to me.

@NikeDattani Not is, but can occasionally be.

I'm sure you weren't impressed so easily.

Nike Dattani

@Cerberus okay.

Cerberus

To me, using 'codes' meaning 'pieces of computer code'(?) sounds non native.

It sounds like a software.

I have seen this, but not by native speakers.

Nike Dattani

@Cerberus Yes I was worried I might have to explain the last sentence more. Probably more people write "colour" than the number of people that even know what "codes" are. But the number of colleagues I have that would write "codes" to denote "computer programmes" is more than the number of colleagues I have that would write "colour". Does it make a bit more sense?

Cerberus

23:26

Then there are errors or suboptimal expressions commonly used by native speakers.

@NikeDattani OK. My reply would be that quantity isn't necessarily the deciding factor in determining whether or not something is correct or suboptimal.

I write I has several times a day, because s and d are next to each other.

Doesn't mean it isn't suboptimal, even to me, the author.

Nike Dattani

@Cerberus I think we need to take a bit of a break. If enough time passes, and you still feel that "codes" in this context is wrong or suboptimal, then we can talk about why. But I worry that this will not go anywhere otherwise.

Cerberus

Just as many people will refrain from using capitalisation.

Haha, OK, very well.

Nike Dattani

If a person has entered a conversation with an aggressive stance, it's not common for them to change their mind easily.

Cerberus

If you think I'm aggressive now, you have seen nothing yet!

I guard the underworld.

Nike Dattani

@Cerberus Do you mean that's a typo?

Cerberus

23:29

@NikeDattani Yes.

Nike Dattani

When the author of that question wrote "Can I use two different codes" I assure you that it was not a typo.

Cerberus

I believe it.

But that's just an example of how a common error may still be an error.

Nike Dattani

So what is the relevance of the "has" vs "had" argument?

I see.

Cerberus

Sometimes, the error is even more common than the correct usage.

Of course opinions may vary.

Nike Dattani

A good example of a "common error" is perhaps, using "irregardless" when really they mean "regardless" or "irrespective"

Cerberus

23:31

Yes, good example.

Nike Dattani

Or saying "this costs less dollars" when they mean "fewer dollars"

Cerberus

Yes.

Some might say those are not to be considered errors (any more).

Based on frequency alone.

But I am not of that school.

Nike Dattani

Hello @ObinnaOkpolu can I guess that your name is West African?

@Cerberus I use the word "error" perhaps a bit different from you. If it's intentional I might not always call it an error. But I would say that "fewer dollars" is preferred over "less dollars", in my books at least.

Okay, so an argument can be said that just because myself and so many other people would call GAUSSIAN and MOLPRO a pair of "codes", it does not make it correct English. But can you say precisely the reason why it is "incorrect" English?

The word "code" is being used as a countable noun in this case. That's what the writers intention is. It is not an "error" that they are using "code" to mean "computer programme". It is what everyone working in our field means when we say "code". We don't use the word "computer programme" very often at all because it's long, and we don't say "software" because "softwares" looks funny and the plural of "software" can be ambiguous.

Also see that Martin agrees with me, and gave several examples, and you can find many examples online, and the question on MMSE to which I gave a link here earlier, has "codes" written in that context, etc. I agree that sometimes the more popular way of saying things may be considered less "correct" to the elites, but the users at MMSE are in fact elite intellectuals, all of them publishing in English journals and most of them with PhDs written in English.

It's an SE for a subject that's studied almost exclusively by people with PhDs.

Cerberus

23:50

@NikeDattani I see you use the word program everywhere in your answer here, besides the introduction.

I wonder why that is.

The definition of "error" is indeed debatable.

So what you are saying is that, in your field, or sub-field, or school, a certain usage is very common.

Nike Dattani

@Cerberus Where did I use the word "program" ?

Cerberus

You can click on the little arrow next to your name in my line, to see what I was replying to.

9

A: Can I use two different codes?

Absolutely. I do this all the time, and often use several codes, since each code has its own strengths and weaknesses. I used 7 different codes in this paper where all I was doing was the ionization energy of one carbon atom (this means calculating the energy of a neutral carbon atom, and the ene...

Here.

Nike Dattani

@Cerberus In my field and in a lot of fields, it is not just common but ubiquitous to use "code" as a countable noun.

Cerberus

And yet you used program all over your answer except in the beginning.

Ultimately, an error is in the eye of the beholder(s).

Nike Dattani

After M.A.R. pointed it out, perhaps a huge number of people use the word "code" as a countable noun when they're referring to "lines of code" or something like that, which I can understand irritates people, which makes people come here and get angry when they see me advocating that "codes" can be used as a countable noun.

Cerberus

23:54

Heh.

That could be part of it.

But, when I read that post, assuming code referred to the same thing as program, it did not sound right to me. I didn't read it as referring to lines of code.

Nike Dattani

@Cerberus Yes but instead I searched "program" with CTRL+F and couldn't find it. I didn't think you were replying to something so far back. You could have just mentioned that you were talking about my answer to that question.

Cerberus

How could I have done so in a better way?

This seemed the easiest way to do just that.

Nike Dattani

"I see that in your answer on MMSE which you posted here, you use the word program everywhere in your answer here, besides the introduction."

By the way I haven't answered that yet because I haven't been able to look at what I wrote yet :)

I've been typing or catching up with other messages the whole time.

Cerberus

Ah, OK.

Poor you!

I suppose I'm used to typing fast here.

Not checking my lines for errors...

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…