English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Robusto

00:10

@RegDwigнt Too close to Родина.

@RegDwigнt Don't tell me ... they're giving you a raise?

Something tells me they want you all to forswear Monica and all her supporters.

This time it's personal!

CowperKettle

02:12

Cerberus

02:50

That's a nice map.

Travek times by train and on foot from Amsterdam.

Færd

06:29

> On this day, 8 July 1763, General Jeffrey Amherst, commander of British forces in North America, wrote to one of his colonels asking: "Could it not be contrived to send the small pox among the disaffected tribes of Indians? We must on this occasion use every stratagem in our power to reduce them." The following week he wrote that his subordinate should "try every other method that can serve to extirpate this execrable race."
Amherst was reeling from the loss of three forts to Native American fighters in Pontiac's rebellion. Unbeknownst to him, blankets tainted with smallpox had already be…

Jasper

06:46

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I thought that was fake, then I realised it was real.

CowperKettle

10:47

Moscow is dropping all anti-COVID measures starting 13 July. Every day there are 6000+ registered cases across Russia.

Mitch

13:10

@Færd It looks like you're steadily progressing through the 'Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong'

2

Robusto

@Mitch That or A People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn.

Mitch

Population history of indigenous peoples of the Americas

The population figure of indigenous peoples of the Americas before the 1492 Spanish voyage of Christopher Columbus has proven difficult to establish. Scholars rely on archaeological data and written records from European settlers. Most scholars writing at the end of the 19th century estimated that the pre-Columbian population was as low as 10 million; by the end of the 20th century most scholars gravitated to a middle estimate of around 50 million, with some historians arguing for an estimate of 100 million or more. Contact with the Europeans led to the European colonization of the Americas, in...

Not that Wikipedia is an authority, but it corroborates what I've heard, that:

1) the Pre-Columbian population of the Americas wasn't great, but it was way more than the estimates during the colonial times (one back justification was that it was open land/no one was living there so free for the taking).

Færd

@Mitch Sorry for tweening you, what makes you think that? I just saw this passage somewhere.

Mitch

2) a lot of depopulation happened in North America (I don't know about South America) between 1492 and 1607, Columbus to Jamestown, when English (I'm obviously being Anglocentric) colonization didn't really get going (ie permanent English settlements started in 1607)

Færd

Those books any good?

Mitch

13:22

...and that depopulation was due to lots of European fishermen who were fishing the Grand Banks off of the northeast US would winter on land there and that's where the spread of smallpox and measles really started to reduce the indigenous population.

Færd

@Mitch That sits right with what I had thought.

Robusto

@Færd Both are excellent.

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Repeating words in answer (85): Why in Britain were the police called "rozzers"? by user391285 on english.SE

Mitch

and 3) The colonists weren't altar boys. Even if something else was to blame for the Indian deaths, they were happy to have the locals removed. So smallpox blankets or not, not cool man.

Færd

@Robusto The names sound familiar. They should be famous.

@Mitch As colonists go.

Mitch

13:25

@Færd Dude, you should read Manufacturing Consent (Herman and Chomsky). Some details don't apply anymore but the main principles work.

Færd

That's not a history book and I'm familiar with the content.

If anything, I've been subjected to the reverse propaganda (about the evilness of America) all my life.

Mitch

@Færd Sure, but journalism is infant history. And the principles or journalism tend to apply to history too.

@Færd I think y'all have pretty good legitimate reasons to think of the US poorly (at least the government)

Færd

@Mitch Right. But that book is about how consent is manufactured in a "free" society.

The idea is that what force and intimidation does in totalitarian states, corporate media does in free societies.

Mitch

In defense of the US, we -have- books like the ones mentioned, it is very open about its problematic past. It's just not taught that way in school.

Færd

@Mitch I like that about you.

Mitch

13:30

Historians know all these bad things from the past. But history is all propaganda anyways.

Færd

It's been almost all bad history from the Neolithic Revolution.

Mitch

US historians know all about the many pogroms of black people in the US in the late 19th/early 20th c, but they're only now emerging to the greater consciousness because of the recent police killings and demonstrations against them.

@Færd Air conditioning. That's one bright spot.

Færd

goes to turn on the swamp cooler

sits back

meh

Mitch

@Færd How is that different from what teachers tell their 10 year old students about how great their country is?

LONG LIVE MICRONESIA!

Færd

@Mitch Lots of teachers do that in lots of countries. But the mechanism is different.

Different ways of manufacturing.

North Korean teachers are probably not convinced (anymore) that the only fat guy in the country is a god, but they do tell their students something of a sort.

Mitch

13:39

My memories of Manufacturing Consent are vague, but I thought it was just newspaper editors sitting in a room deciding on article placement, maybe getting a call from an advertiser friend or high up army buddy to say maybe move that article back to near the classified ads and obituaries which no one reads.

Færd

In places like Iran, the Soviet Union, and Russia people are even more suspicious of the state media.

But in a democracy, it is easier for the public to believe the media, because they don't see the hidden hand that drives its narrative.

As opposed to the heavy hand that drives state media in totalitarian states.

Mitch

In places like the US, people trust People magazine that Jennifer Anniston was the good one and Angelina Jolie was awful.

Færd

Hehe

Mitch

haha

Most people just don't bother with the news.

Færd

@Mitch Those are the details that could vary from era to era and medium to medium

But the main thesis of the book is an economic explanation of how the media works.

@Mitch Yeah

But there are hidden perceptions and silent impressions and agreements and consents...

Mitch

13:43

US people. hard to tell outside of the US. (not bothering with the news)

Færd

Media is not just the news tho

Mitch

Like movies and stuff?

Færd

Yeap

Mitch

A lot of, not exactly propaganda, comes through stories and movies.

For fun once a week, I listen to a local pop-music station during breakfast, a sort of morning zoo program, it's funny and people call to tell stupid stories about how their dog locked themselves in the bathroom. And they have a serious news segment which is about 1 minute long, and is usually interrupted by the main DJ who's a comedian.

Færd

Sounds like fun

Robusto

13:51

@Færd They are among people who care about truth.

Mitch

For the past 4 years, the news segment has usually been 'China is producing more 5G phones then the US' (sounds like a serious thing but everybody has a phone so the can relate).

Færd

Yeah they got the upper hand in this

I've heard it facilitates espionage or tapping into phones or whatever.

Mitch

Once in a while there'll be a news story (= -2- sentences) "President Trump just signed an executive order to have all ugly people be shot in the face. The bullets will be recycled".

Færd

Poor bullets

Mitch

But that's it. That's all the news on the pop music station that teenagers listen to,.

But...

recently (with the corona stuff), the news guy will say his sentence and then the comedian DJ will say, 'Cripes. That's awful.'

Færd

13:56

Big change

Mitch

The whole show is an entertainment thing, but things have gotten to the point where the entertainers feel like they -have- to editorialize.

It was shocking.

Færd

Is it aimed at the administration?

Robusto

Lies My Teacher Told Me focuses on stuff recorded in or left out of American student textbooks, A People's History of the United States takes a broader view.

Mitch

On thought, yeah. I feel like they were making fun of people not wearing masks, and mentioning how particular US leaders were among them.

Robusto

But both are eye-openers if all you've ever heard is what you've learned in school or seen in movies, etc.

Færd

13:58

@Mitch Yeah not caring about the news is true until it directly affects you. Unfortunately people realize the effect pretty late.

Maybe the system is to blame for some of that late response too.

Mitch

@Færd Oh sure, but skeptically, it plays into 'conspiracy' feelings.

Færd

@Robusto I could imagine.

Mitch

China can't do anything with what they gather about US citizens. In China, they can easily 're-educate' them.

Færd

Them who?

Robusto

BTW, you can get Lies My Teacher Told Me for free here: all-med.net/get/…

Færd

14:03

It has a provocative title!

Robusto

And you can read A People's History for free here: libcom.org/files/…

Mitch

@Færd them=the random people who accidentally use a word that has been temporarily banned in China.

Færd

@Robusto Thanks. I'll take a look.

A while back I watched a series called the Untold History of the United States by this famous director. It was a bit more sympathetic to Russia than I liked but nevertheless I enjoyed watching it.

Oliver Stone

Mitch

@Robusto argh. I hate those sites that have free books but you have to register.

Robusto

@Færd Yes, I've seen that as well. It's very good.

@Mitch That strikes me as a minor inconvenience.

Mitch

14:10

@Robusto maybe it would be OK for me if it were one site. but it seems like there's one for each free book I've ever wanted to look at.

And I'd probably never read it.

Of the many tabs I have open and will never attend to, a number of them are full length books.

Færd

It's hard to get to the truth in history. And there's propaganda from every direction. So it's good to widen the scope of your input.

Robusto

Me, I'd just buy the book. Then you can read it anywhere. Even in the tub, if so inclined.

Mitch

For that matter, on my desk right now are a number of books that I've had for a few years and still haven't read.

Robusto

That's on you.

Mitch

@Robusto just addressed

@Robusto No. Right next to me. Just looking at me. Blaming me for not reading.

Robusto

14:13

"Shame on you!" cried the book.

Mitch

@Robusto I can't read in the tub. Worried about dropping the book in.

@Robusto They're awful like that.

Robusto

If a book had fingers it would point them at you. Books in French would say "J'accuse !"

Mitch

If a book was a cat, it would look right though you.

If I were a cat...

and I looked in the mirror...

I'd think that that is one good looking cat.

M.A.R.

15:09

@Færd Have you watched There Will Be Blood?

@Mitch I mostly think poorly of US diets

And I'm not sure if I should just blame McDonalds, or media as well, or

M.A.R.

16:20

@Mitch Bolsonaro's tested positive apparently. And he was, beforehand, in a lunch meeting with particular US leaders. Neither wore masks.

@Robusto It strikes me as a major inconvenience because they often subsequently redirect you to a subscription page. I have stopped registering anywhere because of that.

CowperKettle

16:41

Robusto

@M.A.R. Of course.

In that case I would say forget it, unless they'll accept bogus information and an anonymous email account, etc.

CowperKettle

It was the hottest day in Yekaterinburg in the last 119 years.

+34°C

Back in the summer of 2015, the highest ever temperature was about 20C

Robusto

That's scary.

Mitch

16:59

@M.A.R. That's a whole nother discussion. You can't eat that stuff everyday.

CowperKettle

Word of the day: certiorari

> “This challenging and interesting case makes a good candidate for Supreme Court review,” he wrote. The Supreme Court granted certiorari in May.

Mitch

@M.A.R. One thing that will come out of this, whether you're a mask wearer or an idiot, is that if anybody survives all this (we most likely will), in 5 years, any two people can meet, say a Scot and a Laotian, and provided suitable language skills, they'll be able to say 'remember all that covid crap we had to live through' and they'll both nod and say 'yeah'.

The Scot will say 'Och aye' because they're all alike.

@M.A.R. Who would take charge if Bolsonaro... um... isn't able to do things?

M.A.R.

@Mitch Some military schmuck I suppose

Goodreads is messed up. A book that's 3.8 is bad/controversial, a book that's 4 is a must-read

I wouldn't care if it wasn't for Google showing it as ratings for every book I search

> Having said all that, however, I found Loewen was overplaying the “politically correct” hand himself, replacing the conservative, Euro-centric rhetoric with his own overtly socialist and liberal leanings. His strong opinions on historical events may cause some readers to overlook his message on education. For this reader, it made for just the kind of boring recitation of skewed political propaganda the author claims to be rallying against. If you are interested in the topic of education and how it is being inseminated to our children through textbook censorship and abridgement of the fact…

Hmm, what else is in that book, except to debunk that the then-immigrants were no heroes, and probably some harmless apocryphal tales that make it to almost any history book?

@Mitch I have some suspicions that the capitalist model in the US has been abused often by a collusion of important people of a certain industry so as to allow some unethical things pass. For example, the big names of the food industry bypass health regulations and put an excessive amount of fats or protein or whatever in their products than is already outlined as healthy by FDA or somesuch. And that this would explain partly the poor (or rich, I guess) nutritional habits of the Americans,

And of course, advertise delicious juicy stuff that'd eventually kill you heavily on media.

I've never evaluated this, whether it's merely a conspiracy theory of the NWO sort, or if there's any merit to it. Was it what you were referring to?

It could as well be an ingrained communist view spoonfed to me by our media's propaganda. What I find funny is our system seems more capitalist than socialist

Aw, Bradbury is being quoted to excuse racism

@M.A.R. goodreads.com/book/show/1304525.The_Language_Police — sounds like a really biased book TBH.

CowperKettle

18:06

I haven't read a book in years.

> Trump to the left of me
Brexit to the right
Eire I am
Stuck in the Middle With EU

Mitch

19:00

@CowperKettle I know!

CowperKettle

Very interesting.

A clue to the molecular mechanism that enhances cognition in exercising animals

Robusto

20:09

@CowperKettle I'm an exercising animal.

RegDwigнt

20:20

@Robusto yeah I just checked, they are raising my privileges to nil.

Accept or die.

On the plus side, if they raised my salary by 1.3 trillion percent, that's still zero deutschmarks, zero pfennigs, flat, rounded up, before tax.

You come from nothing, you go back to nothing, what have you lost — nothing!

@Cerberus I'm now fiddling around with an arrangement of a waltz you've not heard yet.

musescore.com/user/27897310/scores/6243574

(That's an actual photo of my actual no-longer-wife, mind.)

Robusto

20:53

@RegDwigнt Nice. Why didn't you call it "Waltzing with my Ex"?

The usual caveats apply for MIDI ensembles. The violin patch was better this time, but waaaaaaaaaay forward in the mix, so much so that I had to turn the whole thing down and then I lost the piano. But the music was good. See if you can get your teacher to record it with you. I'd love to hear a human version.

RegDwigнt

You say better, I say the violin is fucking appalling.

Let's call the whole thing off.

Also I just wrote her that she don't need to rehearse or even print it out, I just need some advice on this or that part.

Maybe we will play it if she really likes it. But other than that, we've scheduled Bach's double violin concerto already.

Robusto

@RegDwigнt At least it had some articulation this time.

RegDwigнt

Oh you mean the three notes that I put a hidden portato on.

I do that all the time. I just usually don't hide it.

Robusto

You and your hidden potatoes.

RegDwigнt

I also hid all the dynamics markings this time. It does help with the listening. Because you're not expecting it. So you're expecting worse.

Robusto

20:59

RegDwigнt

@Robusto sorry, there's one Google hit for that already, and I'm not breaking no Digital Millenium Copyright Acts.

Robusto

@RegDwigнt srsly?

RegDwigнt

Inorite.

Robusto

I thought I was making that up. Clever me.

RegDwigнt

Everything you can think of has been thought of before.

Robusto

21:00

So it would appear.

RegDwigнt

So don't think in words. Think in music.

Robusto

Heh. That's worse.

Someone's already copyrighted the A-minor scale, I understand.

RegDwigнt

It's only seven letters but you'd be amazed how many of the combos are still up for grabs.

Robusto

Both descending and ass-ending.

RegDwigнt

Yeah don't compose the soundtrack to Ass-Ass-ins Creed. All G sharps all the way. Horrible. Who listens to that.

Robusto

21:03

It would have been much better with A-flats.

RegDwigнt

@Robusto also before it scrolls out of view, why is Kissinger missing from the photo. And Wolfowitz.

That's not right.

Robusto

@RegDwigнt Ex-presidents only. It's an exclusive club.

RegDwigнt

For all the tumfuckery those guys have pulled off, they may as well have earned the right to be called President for ever.

Kissinger and Wolfowitz, that is.

Clinton just played the sax.

Robusto

Kissinger is still alive, as I've noted elsewhere. He should be prosecuted for war crimes.

RegDwigнt

Yeah yeah pull a number.

You still haven't prosecuted the fucking South for its crimes. And it's been what, a couple centuries.

Robusto

21:06

@RegDwigнt Well, if we start pulling on that thread, this whole country is going to unravel.

RegDwigнt

So I'm not holding my breath for Iraq and Viet Nam, dude.

Robusto

Same for your country as well.

Same for probably any of them.

All skeletons in the closet, all the time.

RegDwigнt

Nah my country unraveled thirty years ago, have you not been following the news.

Robusto

BTW, are you still carrying a torch for your ex?

I see you dedicated the piece to her.

RegDwigнt

Well we parted in kind.

I dedicate all kinds of things to all kinds of people.

Hell, I dedicated my second waltz to our doggie @Cerberus right there.

Hell being the operative word here.

Robusto

21:09

You mean hell as in "light-colored"? That describes @Cerb, I suppose. Though he does have a few spots.

In fact, his name used to be Spot.

Dog joke ^

RegDwigнt

He's quite hell against his background, yeah.

Anyway. I'm still looking for something deserving of my dad. But other than that, yeah I have them all covered. Waltz 8 was for my nan and waltz 10 for my mom.

Robusto

Hey, when do I get a waltz? @Cerberus got one!

RegDwigнt

I write more waltzes than there are people.

Robusto

Then you have no excuse for not giving me one.

RegDwigнt

Nov 29 '18 at 23:19, by Robusto

@RegDwigнt Except for your 3/4 waltzes, schmaltz-boy.

@Robusto I knew you would say that.

Which is the very reason why you still don't have one. I can't just give you some shit willy-nilly.

I have like a dozen waltzes with no dedication. But those are not worthy of your name.

So shrug.

Robusto

21:15

@RegDwigнt You really hold a grudge.

RegDwigнt

I'm not in control of when and if I write anything actually good.

@Robusto haha.

No. I just remember everything.

Tis the curse.

I am impartial to everything happening to me. Grudges are for idiots.

Robusto

It's a curse to remember every slight, however slight.

Hey, here's a good nickname for Trump: The slight-of-hand man. Because, you know, small hands. Also a con artist, buffoon, crook, you name it.

RegDwigнt

Do you even want a waltz. Most of my stuff for the flute is in common time, you know.

Robusto

I only play things in uncommon time.

RegDwigнt

Ah, so that's God's time. Tempus perfectum.

Three fourths and D major.

Robusto

21:18

Cursum perficio. Ask Enya.

RegDwigнt

Does anyone even still know who that was.

Robusto

<=

So what is her costume? Did she dance The Firebird?

RegDwigнt

No that was just her fooling around as per usual with some friends visiting. They constructed some costumes out of nothing and took some photos. All in an afternoon.

I still have right here those plasticky feathers she's wearing in the photo.

Don't even know what she made them out of.

They are right next to my LEGO ferris wheel.

That's where she used to keep her sewing machine.

Robusto

I didn't know people still had sewing machines.

RegDwigнt

Russians always do.

From the same session.

See, it's just some scarf and whatever they had at hand at the time.

The braids in the other photo are extensions.

There were always people visiting, doing all kinds of crazy stuff. There was that one cool dude from Hamburg doing shadow theatre or whatever you call it in English.

And there was that other lady from Munich who could construct dresses out of old chewing gum and saw dust. She was a fucking sartorial McGyver.

Robusto

21:27

Cool.

RegDwigнt

instagram.com/samkignoo

Robusto

These are entertainments I never realized were possible.

RegDwigнt

That's my ex-wife's Insta. She makes jewelry now. Soldering and everything. Because why not.

It's what we had in common, and what brought us apart. We always want to be doing a hundred different things. But are always way too busy doing a million others.

Robusto

I can see where that would make intersection difficult.

RegDwigнt

Yes. Which in turn makes marital strifes unnecessary if at all possible.

Paths cross and uncross again.

As I said, grudges are for idiots.

Robusto

21:40

Sometimes it works out better not to be too involved with what your spouse is doing.

RegDwigнt

Yeah well in our case if anything we should've been more involved. We let each other all the freedoms. Because we knew that we needed them. We were too kind to one another.

"Too" as in, if staying together had been the one goal to rule them all. Which is a foolish notion.

Robusto

Life is complicated.

RegDwigнt

Yeah. Anyway. You're on my mind, but I just have nothing to give you as of now.

Give it another twenty years, or another twenty months. Whichever comes first. Who knows of such things.

Robusto

No hurry. Enjoy your life.

RegDwigнt

You can't force the inevitable.

Oh, and actually, waltzing was the one dance that we did do together.

She's a professional Irish dancer. And I can't dance for shit. But I do do waltzes. We learned those in school. Actually in the same class and year that we listened to Berio and Strawinsky.

So that one day I told her let's waltz right now and for a good two minutes she laughed her ass off at even just the notion, but then I took the lead and she was like dafuq you can actually do this, who knew.

Good education is everything. My father always told me as much. Before I even knew what education was.

Robusto

21:58

Noice.

Something tells me Russia doesn't want you either, dudes.

RegDwigнt

Lol.

For lack of a nail in Trump's coffin, people still paint Russia as their foe.

Like the fuck is that nonsense about Russian bounties on GI's heads.

Cerberus

@RegDwigнt Why nonsense?

RegDwigнt

If we wanted to kill GIs so bad, we could do it no problems completely for free in a whole bunch of other places. Somalia, for starters. Nobody would even notice.

Russia has no business with the Talibs right now. We've burnt ourselves very badly in Afghanistan, we're not doing that again.

(The US does have business with the Talibs right now, BTW. Planes full off heroin leaving for Romania every week. An open secret if there ever was one.)

The only people who ever wanted to see Russia in Afghanistan was the US to begin with. Which is why I despise that fucking Tom Hanks movie so much, what's it called.

Oh yeah, Charlie Wilson's War.

Fuck that shit.

Cerberus

I think perhaps you're mixing things up a bit...

So you are saying the reports are untrue?

RegDwigнt

I think perhaps everyone is painting things too simple, and not a bit.

Cerberus

22:11

I thought they had been confirmed.

RegDwigнt

@Cerberus there are no reports. All made up garbage.

Cerberus

nrc.nl/nieuws/2020/06/29/…

Respectable newspapers say they received the information from inside the American government.

With details.

I like your Waltz, by the way. I agree with @Robusto that it deserves to be recorded.

RegDwigнt

Yes. Of course. From inside the American government. What else is it that you need.

Why don't your papers receive the information from within Kremlin that Americans are paying the Talibs to kill Russians, and then publish that without even checking.

Who the fuck wants to kill Americans anyway, they're killing themselves right now and in no small numbers.

Stop thinking like it's the 1980s. It hasn't been for the longest time.

Cerberus

shrugs

RegDwigнt

@Cerberus I might record the piano solo version some day. Though right now thanks to the corona my piano is more out of tune than ever before.

The violin arrangement I only just uploaded today and it will probably get tweaked a whole bunch before I can even dream of trying to play it.

Earlier today YouTube suggested to me some video of a concertmaster who lost control of two of his fingers but refused to give up and still plays the violin with the remaining two.

He sounded way better than I do right now.

2 Fingered violinist Clayton Haslop plays The Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto

►

Cerberus

22:26

Impressive.

RegDwigнt

Yeah I've listened to his rendering of Kretzer No2 and didn't even recognize the piece even though I've played it hundreds of times.

His phrasing is completely different.

And that's, like, a beginner's etude that I started tackling at the end of my first year.

So don't hold your breath on any recordings any time soon.

On that note, I probably better go to bed now so I have more practice time tomorrow.

Robusto

23:11

@RegDwigнt Gotta be early morning there.

BAYMAX

23:34

Hi

A random question off topic:
We do things repeatedly/ periodically to which we are attracted to.
can you please let me know if you agree or disagree with the above statement?

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