English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Mahnax

15:00

I don't know.

KitFox

@Robusto That's what it looks like when they are unsorted. I want them to know that they are sortable. Is that too confusing?

Mahnax

Do you know how to invite someone?

My email address is <EL&U username>@gmail.com.

Gigili

@Mahnax Problem solved.

Robusto

@KitFox You must have some sort at the outset. Show what it is. That little bit will let them know a) that there is a sorted column, and b) that the columns are sortable.

Even if the data is returned unsorted, go ahead and sort it by name or whatever preliminarily.

Mahnax

@Gigili Ah OK.

KitFox

15:02

@Robusto OK, thanks, I will do that.

Robusto

But here's a neat trick: reserve space for the other arrows (i.e., make them visibility: hidden instead of display: none) so that the column headers don't jump around, which can be disconcerting to the user.

Gigili

@Mahnax Sent.

Mahnax

@Gigili Merci.

Gigili

Aaaand, I'm off.

Robusto

And don't add the event listener to the arrow; add it to the entire header cell.

Gigili

15:04

@Mahnax Keine Ursache!

KitFox

@Robusto I think I did that...

Mahnax

@Gigili No niin!

Robusto

@KitFox Good.

KitFox

Wow, I feel like a real grownup designer.

KitFox

15:19

45 minutes until Writers chat. I'm a gonna get me sumthin ta eat.

brb

Matt Эллен

I will be cycling home. I'll try and join in after that though!

Mahnax

15:31

What's going on in Writers?

KitFox

A chat!

in The Overlook Hotel, 3 hours ago, by KitFox

I'm thinking about the former. "What questions do I need to ask to get the kind of feedback that will be useful?"

Is the topic I invented for today, although I am open to suggestions.

There are usually only a few people, so I am rather unofficially hosting today

Anonymous

Hello

I have question about American accent.

KitFox

Hi. OK.

Anonymous

►

My wife had a lesson with this teacher and she wants to know does her teacher speak general accent?

KitFox

I don't hear an obvious accent, so I would guess she has a northeastern US accent.

(which is the same as mine, which is why I wouldn't hear it.)

She is very understandable to me.

Anonymous

15:44

She is also understandable to me too but my wife told me that she didn't understand some words.

KitFox

Which words did she have trouble with?

Anonymous

When she said fake friend my wife thought she said fix.

When she said pal my wife thought she said pel.

KitFox

Is she used to hearing a southern US accent?

Anonymous

She used to learn with a teacher from California.

KitFox

Did the teacher have a Californian accent?

I'm trying to think what that sounds like.

cornbread ninja

15:49

Hi all

KitFox

I am having trouble thinking about "fake" to "fix," but "pal" can be confused with "pel" if you are used to an accent that has longer, flatter "a" sounds.

Anonymous

This is a link of her teacher from California - youtube.com/watch?v=yx7zxLICAb4&feature=plcp

KitFox

Northeastern US has more clipped vowels.

@Anonymous Oh right. That woman. You've posted a link to her stuff before.

I hate her expression. She sounds nasally and patronizing.

Anonymous

I will update another video when this teacher said fake. :)

KitFox

I guessed southern US because they have very different vowel sounds compared to the northeast and a marked tendency to stretch them.

I have a friend who started using his middle name when he worked in the south because it annoyed him that Southerners made "Ben" into two syllables.

Anyway, I'll be in Writers chat for the next hour or so:

The Overlook Hotel

General discussion for writing.stackexchange.com. Writing exer...

The topic will be: "What questions do I need to ask to get the kind of feedback that will be useful?" or something sexier.

There might be snacks.

Anonymous

15:57

►

This is when she says the word "fake"

BTW, I can understand both of the teachers. They speak very clear English.

KitFox

16:24

@MrShiny Here's a story you might like (I started reading it, but haven't finished)

in The Overlook Hotel, 6 mins ago, by GnomeSlice

Also, by an unrelated author (Ken Liu), has anyone read Paper Menagerie? It's fantastic, fantastic work.

I hope you aren't upset by it though.

Well, or. That's an odd thing for me to say.

Mahnax

I am currently writing an opinion paper on evolution in Biology class.

KitFox

A what?

Mahnax

That's what I thought, too.

She basically wants to know if we believe in evolution, and if not, why.

But she calls it an opinion paper.

Anonymous

@KitFox Do you think the teacher in last video has general Accent?

KitFox

Oh. I guess that makes sense. "What's your opinion of evolution?"

Mahnax

16:37

Yeah. There is a surprising number of people in my class who really don't know how they feel about it.

KitFox

@Anonymous Yes, but maybe a little midwestern actually. She sounds like my friend from Wisconsin in that clip.

@Mahnax You all are young yet, and probably don't have much experience thinking about science, much less about deeper concepts like evolution.

Mahnax

@KitFox Indeed.

At any rate, I have formed an opinion.

KitFox

Oh. That was an interesting edit.

Did you delete a few lines?

Mahnax

I didn't feel that the last bit was really relevant at all.

Anonymous

I also have another question. I am looking for an English book about phrasal verbs but all books that I found were written by Irish or British people.

Is there any difference between phrasal verbs in American English and British English?

Mahnax

16:42

I'm not sure.

I don't think there's a noticeable difference.

JSBձոգչ

does anybody else here like the Indigo Girls?

Mahnax

The what?

JSBձոգչ

Indigo Girls

The Indigo Girls are an American folk rock music duo consisting of Amy Ray and Emily Saliers. They met in elementary school and began performing together as high school students in Decatur, Georgia, part of the Atlanta metropolitan area. They started performing with the name Indigo Girls as students at Emory University, performing weekly at The Dugout, a bar in the Emory Village. They released a self-produced, full-length record album in 1987 and contracted with a major record company in 1988. After releasing nine albums with major record labels from 1988 through 2007, they have now resum...

Mahnax

Hm, never listened to them.

Anonymous

I have never listened to them too.

JSBձոգչ

16:46

too gay?

Mahnax

What?

How could anything be too gay?

KitFox

I like them.

Anonymous

@JSB when you say "too gay" I think about Jesse Tyler.

KitFox

I don't think their music is very gay at all.

Not like the Village People or anything.

JSBձոգչ

i knew i could count on @Kit to back me up here

do we agree that Swamp Ophelia is their best album?

KitFox

16:52

@JSBձոգչ Because I'm queer, or for some other reason?

JSBձոգչ

we like all the same music. it was obvious.

also, too gay

;P

KitFox

I might agree, but I can't remember any of those songs off the top of my head.

cpx

What's a "fake friend"?

KitFox

Which album would I have listened to though, if not that one?

cpx

an Internet friend?

Mahnax

16:55

@cpx A person who pretends to be your friend but isn't?

KitFox

Someone who pretends to be your friend when they are not really.

jinx!

JSBձոգչ

@KitFox um, i don't know? Swamp Ophelia is my favorite. their famous songs are from a whole bunch of different albums, though

Mahnax

sighs

KitFox

@JSBձոգչ Oh, Rites of Passage, I think, was the one I listened to the most.

cpx

In that video, the teacher said "Can you ever think of a time when you might need a fake friend?"

KitFox

16:57

My ex-gf Anna had all of their albums, so I heard lots of their stuff then.

Mahnax

KitFox

@cpx Hmm. Maybe someone who was willing to pose as a friend?

JSBձոգչ

@KitFox see? too gay.

FWIW, the indigo girls are much closer to my mental archetype of queerness than the Village People

KitFox

Just because they are gay-ish and gay people listen to their music, it doesn't mean the music is gay.

cpx

I think I understand.

JSBձոգչ

17:04

is there anything ish about their gayness? anyway, "earnest" and "folksy" are qualities that i associate with the actual gay people i know, as well as with the IG, while "campy" (as in the Village People) is something that belongs to the stereotype but which i've never really met in real life

KitFox

...

Do you think of me as earnest and folksy?

Matt Эллен

owl interuption

JSBձոգչ

awwwwww

KitFox

awwww

JSBձոգչ

@KitFox will you be upset if i say "yes"?

KitFox

17:06

I'm not sure.

But I'm not gay anyway.

So I guess I shouldn't expect that.

I don't think anyone could think of me as earnest and folksy.

Certainly not folksy.

head on keyboard

JSBձոգչ

maybe not folksy

it's not quite the word i'm thinking of anyway

single-word-requests What word should I use to call my gay friends which isn't "folksy", but is kind of like it if you squint and hold your head at the right angle?

KitFox

I don't carve wood or paint cloth or anything.

JSBձոգչ

do you garden?

KitFox

"earthy" maybe?

JSBձոգչ

that's probably closer

KitFox

17:09

@JSBձոգչ Literally or figuratively?

@JSBձոգչ people who wear comfortable shoes? Oh. That's more than one word.

Mahnax

@KitFox Peoplewhowearcomfortableshoes.

There!

KitFox

Tole painting. That's what I was trying to think of earlier.

It would have been a lot funnier then.

JSBձոգչ

it would have been even funnier if you said "toe painting"

KitFox

hmm, you're right.

@JSB? Were you here when we were talking about the office supplies/sand story earlier?

JSBձոգչ

@KitFox no

KitFox

17:25

Good lord. Why did you let me break my site so badly?

User: I can't log in with the password you gave me.
Me: Your login is [this] and your password is [that].
User: It works! Thanks.

Matt Эллен

lol

KitFox

Miraculous.

I didn't change a thing.

Matt Эллен

Happy Helsinki Day! (200 years as the capital, I'm told)

KitFox

Oh! Well! Same to you.

Matt Эллен

@KitFox You're amazing.

KitFox

17:30

Thanks. You missed our lovely chat.

Did you have a nice ride?

Matt Эллен

I've read some of the transcript

@KitFox It was OK, thanks

KitFox

I'm trying to help drum up business for Writers, but I am afraid I am not very good at it.

Matt Эллен

you seem to be doing alright today :)

KitFox

Too much time toe painting, I guess.

Matt Эллен

yes, that is a distracting activity

KitFox

17:31

The problem is getting people to stay interested.

Matt Эллен

yes

KitFox

I can chat about random stuff, but I don't feel like I have much to contribute to the site, other than "Your writing is really awful."

Matt Эллен

lol

KitFox

And that's only for a few. Serious writers don't seem to ask many questions and I wouldn't have anything to say to them anyway.

Matt Эллен

hmmm

is the main site doing alright?

KitFox

17:33

I don't really know.

I like the idea of being involved in a Writers community, but I feel pretty awkward there.

Matt Эллен

ooo, even fewer questions per day than Cognitive Sciences

@KitFox that's only because you fear their judgement

don't worry about it!

KitFox

"What is the term for a psychological effect which does not have a neurobiological/genetic basis?"

Uh. There is no such animal.

@MattЭллен I fear nothing!

JSBձոգչ

@KitFox why?

Matt Эллен

"something Freud made up"?

KitFox

@JSBձոգչ Why which?

JSBձոգչ

17:35

@KitFox there are no psychological effects which are purely cognitive? (edited for clarity)

KitFox

I want to write more, but I feel like a poser.

Matt Эллен

@JSBձոգչ they all have to come from somewhere in the CNS

KitFox

There is no cognition without biology, no biology without genetics.

And no genetics without four little letters, so be good for goodness's sake.

Matt Эллен

@KitFox this guy is a poser. He can't write or draw for shit. You're way better than him, so you're no poser.

KitFox

Well, five, really, but that's a technicality.

JSBձոգչ

17:37

well, sure, but i think that the OP is probably trying to get at the difference between disorders which can be primarily based on neurochemical imbalances, and those which have much more to do with our cognition

by way of analogy, there are hardware bugs and then there are software bugs, and it's possible to distinguish them even though all software has to run on hardware

KitFox

thinks about this

Matt Эллен

heh, I already up voted the question, so it must be good!

KitFox

OK, I gather what you are saying but to use your analogy, the question sounds to me like "What is the term for hardware-independent software?"

Matt Эллен

Also, Ben Brocka ain't no fo'

KitFox

He's got a diagonal band. I mean, that's pretty cool.

Oh. Oh. You said Ben Brocka not Paul Broca.

My bad.

Matt Эллен

17:41

:D

@ArtemKaznatcheev true, there's always a neurobiological basis (if you're a proper reductionist) but I still wonder if there's a term to differentiate when you do only have that macro-level theory. — Ben Brocka Jan 31 at 14:19

@KitFox oh man, he has some mutton chops

KitFox

Gah. What am I doing?

Stupid girl!

Matt Эллен

differential calculus?

KitFox

I wish.

Matt Эллен

are you trying to tie your shoe laces with one arm behind your back?

KitFox

No, no. I have that story rattling around in my head and I am trying to write page validation script.

Plus, I am annoyed with my father-in-law.

JSBձոգչ

17:47

the upvoted answer gives the example of PTSD, which is a very good example of something which is not caused at the neurochemical level

KitFox

Ah. I see. The etiology can differentiate the two categories. Sure, I could buy that.

It's still biological. It's all biological.

Did I ever mention that I was diagnosed with PTSD?

Matt Эллен

I don't think so

JSBձոգչ

@KitFox it's still physics. it's all physics.

Matt Эллен

Have you gotten over it?

KitFox

@JSBձոգչ And that's a beautiful thing.

@MattЭллен Well, I suppose. I'm not sure what "getting over it" would really mean.

Matt Эллен

17:50

Nor me, I guess

KitFox

But I am not longer violent and suicidal.

So I guess that's a yes.

Matt Эллен

woohoo!

KitFox

Actually, I feel quite normal now. Do I seem normal to you?

Hmm. My right pinky is acting short today.

Matt Эллен

@KitFox yes

KitFox

Good. Excellent, in fact...

Matt Эллен

17:54

do I seem normal to you?

KitFox

Yes. Well, as normal as Brits usually are.

Matt Эллен

:D

KitFox

But I would think that you might be depressed.

I am sure I think that about as accurately as I perceive your birth order.

Matt Эллен

maybe not too inaccurate. But then I've yet to actually see anyone about this sort of thing

KitFox

Well, I have it on good authority that life is surfing, so I think you will be OK.

Matt Эллен

17:57

good, good :)

KitFox

I can read your fortune sometime, if that would help. Guaranteed not to see the Reaper or send you to the Devil.

Matt Эллен

lol, good catch!

KitFox

What in the name of all that is good and holy is going on with my g-deasley codez?

Matt Эллен

is it anything to do with robots?

> Feel a tickling sensation up your trouser leg? Watch out, it could be a robot

KitFox

Robots, robots...OMG! I forgot to retrieve the evil robot I sent after you!

Matt Эллен

18:01

- New Scientist, 26th May 2012

KitFox

hurriedly types some commands into her secret keypad

Matt Эллен

@KitFox damnit, and I thought Oxford was just suffering a plague of really bad drivers

KitFox

Why? Why aren't you working, jQuery?

Matt Эллен

what's it not doing?

KitFox

It's not paying any attention to my validation stuff.

And my datepickers aren't popping up.

Matt Эллен

18:05

does the error console say anything?

(ctrl+shift+j in firefox)

KitFox

uhhh...

Matt Эллен

if you haven't looked at it in a while you probably should clear it and then try out your code

KitFox

I don't understand what it is telling me. Hang on, let me try something else.

cpx

What's the difference between "I don't plan" vs. "I have no plan"?

E.g. I don't plan to stay here for long time.

Does it mean I never planned at all?

KitFox

It's subtle. I'd say "I don't plan" means "I don't have an expectation" while "I have no plan" means "I am not prepared to"

But maybe not.

"I don't plan to stay here for a long time" sounds like you have a different plan in mind.

Matt Эллен

18:13

toodle pip you crazy kids! those drums won't hit themselves

KitFox

"I don't plan to stay here for a long time because I want to move to Tennessee in the fall" for instance.

You wouldn't usually say "I have no plan to stay here for a long time because I want to move to Tennessee in the fall."

Also, "I have no plan" is more approximately equal to "I don't have a plan."

"I don't plan" is more like "I am not planning to" or "I don't intend to"

"I have no plan for rainy days" means you don't have a raincoat. "I don't plan for rainy days" means you don't think it is important or necessary to have a raincoat.

@MattЭллен Have fun! Thanks for ctl+shift+j.

cpx

I have no plan for rainy days, sounds like you have a raincoat but you don't have a plan for rainy days.

How does it suggest that If you have a raincoat or not?

Cerberus

18:31

How is Juliana?

She was our previous queen.

She was friendly and motherly.

It is a bit sad, really.

We've had three very different but excellent queens. Now we will get a king. And he may suck.

user19161

@cpx On a side note, if one does not plan then one cannot have a plan, and if one plans then one is expected to have a plan.

aedia λ

Today was a day for reading the transcript backwards, but I only got as far as jumping up and down about the Indigo Girls

KitFox

smooch @aedia

user19161

@aediaλ Did you go gaming last night?

aedia λ

Swamp Ophelia and Rites of Passage are both their best albums

@KitFox Hiya!

@JasperLoy Yeah, and I felt a lot better once I had some food and got away from the stoopid w*^$, too.

We played... uhh, let me think.

KitFox

18:43

Today I stated in public that I was queer. It felt rather queer.

aedia λ

Edo, Seven Wonders, Dixit, Resistance.

Not in that order.

KitFox

dreams about gaming

user19161

@KitFox There is nothing queer about being queer. QED.

user19161

@KitFox That makes you both a dreamer and a gamer.

aedia λ

It's sometimes weird to say aloud, innit?

KitFox

18:44

I don't usually.

user19161

@aediaλ It's weird to say anything aloud in public.

aedia λ

Haha.

KitFox

Not any more frequently than I say that I'm white or poor, anyway.

user19161

Imagine you suddenly say Boo Thwack Jinx!

KitFox

Boomalacka boomalacka whack whack whack!

aedia λ

18:45

I said some other internet thing to my husband and he didn't know it and I felt weird.

I can't remember what it was, but I thought he would know it, but he didn't, and it was totally awkward. Just like... I don't know, maybe I said "totes" aloud or something.

KitFox

Oh, natch.

aedia λ

Not the shower caddy kind, but, like, you know, totally.

@KitFox I am suddenly doubled over laughing thinking of you standing on a chair, draped in a rainbow flag, playing whack-a-mole and shouting to everyone. Not that I can clearly picture you, but I can't stop laughing...

KitFox

Oh dear.

I think I've only done two of those things.

aedia λ

"Get used to it! We queers go to Chuck-E-Cheese too, you know!"

KitFox

That's just the sound that Ankylosaurus makes when he's drumming on his hard-shelled back.

aedia λ

18:50

giggles even more uncontrollably

wipes eyes

KitFox

So I am writing a story about office supplies and sand. Do you want to read the first bit?

aedia λ

I was in such a grump this morning and all this insanity just came out at once.

@KitFox Yes!

KitFox

foxfirekitty.wordpress.com/?p=65

aedia λ

It says apologies, but page not found?

KitFox

I have yet to get to the office supplies or the sand, but I will.

Oh. Hang on a sec.

foxfirekitty.wordpress.com

And the password is meowkitty.

aedia λ

18:57

Ooh!

I like it.

I like her name, but I found it distracting at the same time, because of the store.

The Overlook Hotel

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…