The Overlook Hotel

KitFox

00:55

OK, here's my two cents:

0

A: Are these fictional musings convincing or overwrought?

I will lead off by saying that I like the passage as written, but I feel it conveys a very different character from the one you describe that you want. The character you have written, as I see it, first comes across as arrogant and pompous as he describes the uninspired, defeated losers he is wa...

KitFox

12:09

Geezis, @KitFox, you really are brilliant.

Speaking of brilliant, what shall the chat topic be today?

Crud, I don't know. How about "How do you know when your work is ready for an editor/colleague readthrough/wastebin?"

Meh. Maybe "How to properly ask for feedback on writing?"

You mean, like how to be specific about what you need, or how to ask a person if they will help you?

I'm thinking about the former. "What questions do I need to ask to get the kind of feedback that will be useful?"

That sounds pretty good. Let's do that.

OK.

KitFox

13:51

sharpens pencils

Ladybug Killer

15:16

sharpens mind

Matt Эллен

15:34

sharpens knives

KitFox

sharpens focus

opens blinds

sets out snacks

slaps @Matt's hand

Snack are for everyone, but you must wait!

Matt Эллен

owee!

awwww but I'm hungreeeeeeeeeee

KitFox

Get yourself home, then you may have some.

Matt Эллен

well, you make a good point. CYA

GnomeSlice

15:51

Heyy, I haven't been getting these notifications.

KitFox

Did you get one just now?

GnomeSlice

Yeah!

Maybe I haven't been in the chat at the right times.

I don't recall ever actually being to Writers.SE anyway, but I usually come for these when I get the notifications.

KitFox

Well, hi!

GnomeSlice

Unfortunately, I have absolutely nothing to contribute. =]

Neil Fein

@GnomeSlice - The notifications system is pretty wonky. It just told me the chat is going on now when it shouldn't have started yet.

KitFox

15:55

@GnomeSlice That's fine.

You can sit over there and make the picture look good.

GnomeSlice

I can contribute some music, but that's not really relevant, is it.

KitFox

Ohai @JSB!

GnomeSlice

@KitFox Heh.

JSBձոգչ

g'morning everyone

i'm just here to gloat about finishing revisions on my novel last week

since this is the writer's chat, after all

Neil Fein

Good morning.

KitFox

15:56

I thought that we could talk about "What questions do I need to ask to get the kind of feedback on my writing that will be useful?"

GnomeSlice

My writing has always been terrible.

KitFox

But it doesn't have to be that.

@JSBձոգչ Congrats!

JSBձոգչ

@KitFox ask about what? your writing, or your programming?

KitFox

Fixed it.

But writing, because this is Writers Chat.

JSBձոգչ

well, what kind of feedback would be useful?

KitFox

15:58

And that's a generic "I," not a me "I."

JSBձոգչ

mostly, if i'm worried about something i go ahead and ask it directly

"does my dialog sound like it was written by robots from mars?"

2

KitFox

What kinds of things do you worry about?

Hahaha.

Your dialogue is usually quite nice, as I recall.

JSBձոգչ

these days i mostly worry about pacing

KitFox

OK, that's good. So how would I evaluate your pacing if you asked me about that?

JSBձոգչ

i think i would ask this: "does the story drag anywhere? were you ever bored or impatient?"

KitFox

16:00

How would you improve it, if I told you that your pacing was too slow or too fast?

JSBձոգչ

@KitFox is this question rhetorical, illustrative, or actual?

KitFox

I have no idea. It's just a friendly chat.

Well, if it's not annoying, we can put it in my personal context and you can share your experiences?

GnomeSlice

Bah, I've never been a great writer.

JSBձոգչ

do you want me to talk about fixing pacing?

@GnomeSlice neither have i

GnomeSlice

Although that doesn't run in my family, apparently.

One of my cousins won first place in the last CBC literary awards for her short story Snapshots From my Father's Euthanasia Road Trip.

KitFox

16:04

I am new to showing people my writing. It's been very personal to me until recently when a friend of mine and I started sharing stuff. I feel like a total n00b when I am discussing my writing with her, because I am not sure what to ask.

Neil Fein

@GnomeSlice - You won't be a great writer if you keep telling yourself that, yes.

JSBձոգչ

@KitFox i cannot recommend Stephen King's On Writing highly enough. in it, he talks about the idea of an "attentive reader"

KitFox

I flounder until I get to "Well, what do you think?" which is of course, useless for the person giving feedback.

JSBձոգչ

this is someone who is not themselves a writer, but can give you a good description of how they reacted and what they were feeling as they read your book

of course, finding such people can be hard

KitFox

The funny thing is, I feel like I do that with reading. She and I discuss writing all the time.

JSBձոգչ

16:06

@KitFox probably a good place to start would be with some things that you think are not working well in the story

"did you like the main character?"

"did your attention wander?"

"were the descriptions good? could you see the settings?"

usually that's enough to get the ball rolling

KitFox

OK. Great. So what should we talk about now?

:-)

JSBձոգչ

also, some people are just not good introspective readers, and will never tell you anything useful. if you have one of those, thank them for their time, and then never show them your writing again

(my parents are like this, bless their hearts)

KitFox

awww.

GnomeSlice

@JSBձոգչ I love reading Stephen King's thoughts on reading and writing.

Neil Fein

Has anyone here been successful at doing unlikeable characters?

JSBձոգչ

16:08

also, neither my parents nor my wife read sff, so they're pretty bewildered by most of what i write

Neil Fein

@GnomeSlice - His On Writing book is very good.

KitFox

Well, how about when I am the one giving feedback? I try to separate style from real content types of problems, but often I find myself with nothing useful to say because all I can think of is "your writing style sucks."

And you'll pardon me if I giggle inwardly at your worship of Stephen King, but I grew up with his kids.

It is very hard for me to view his writing objectively.

Neil Fein

@KitFox - Keep reading, you'll find something good about it eventually. There's always something good about any long piece of writing.

@KitFox - his kids?

KitFox

@NeilFein I don't know. Do you think I am successful? If so, I;ve done a good job at being unlikeable.

@NeilFein My brother went to school with Joe, and I was a year ahead of Owen.

Neil Fein

@KitFox - If being unlikeable is your goal, you're doing a terrible job.

JSBձոգչ

16:12

@KitFox then say that. not in so many words, but say something useful. "you use too many adverbs and lots of archaic language that doesn't actually mean what you think it means."

Neil Fein

Okay, I see.

KitFox

I was Owen's editor in grammar school.

Neil Fein

Yeah. You've got to be blunt but nice at the same time. "This is bad, and could be better if you did X."

Uh-oh, another editor here. Hides

JSBձոգչ

@KitFox Owen King?

Neil Fein

BAB

KitFox

16:13

I was an editor. Not now.

@JSBձոգչ Yes.

JSBձոգչ

(also, i don't worship SK. the only fiction of his that i've read was the Dark Tower series, which was half great and half utter trash.)

KitFox

Wow, Owen's got his own Wikipedia page. envy

Neil Fein

I've only read a few of his books. It and The Dead Zone and a few shorts.

KitFox

I know a few people who say The Stand is the best thing they've ever read, but I've never been able to shed the feeling that he's just a popular horror writer.

Not exactly a literary genius.

Neil Fein

Couldn't get past the first few chapters of The Stand.

GnomeSlice

16:15

I really like Stephen King. While he is a popular horror writer, I still really like his writing style.

KitFox

But I feel bad just saying that, because he and his family are really terrific people.

JSBձոգչ

well, i'd take popular horror writer over literary genius most of the time anyway

GnomeSlice

'Firestarter' was an amazing novel.

KitFox

I've read The Shining which was meh, but I quite enjoyed The Dark Half.

GnomeSlice

I don't even like horror, but Stephen King is one of my favourite writers.

You guys should read this:

All That You Love Will Be Carried Away

All That You Love Will Be Carried Away is a short story by Stephen King. It was originally published in the January 29, 2001 issue of The New Yorker magazine. In 2002, it was collected in King's collection Everything's Eventual. Plot summary Alfie Zimmer, a traveling salesman peddling bar code readers and instant dinners, pulls into a Motel 6 in Nebraska for the night. He settles in, and pulls out a revolver, ready to commit suicide because he "couldn’t go on living the way he had been living." He has a wife, a daughter, and a hobby: recording strange bathroom graffiti which he discov...

Neil Fein

16:17

I read The Shining, too. Any King fans here will be aghast at this, but I liked the movie more.

GnomeSlice

It's one of my all time favourite stories from Stephen King. And it's completely different from much of his other work.

It's not a horror story, and it's very reflective.

Also, by an unrelated author (Ken Liu), has anyone read Paper Menagerie? It's fantastic, fantastic work.

You can read the entire story at that link, and you should.

KitFox

Oh! Chinese. I love that.

cross-posts for MrShiny

Well, that was a short chat.

Anyone else have something to share?

@JSB want to talk about your revisions?

Neil Fein

That's all I've got for now.

GnomeSlice

I could post my sci-fi short story in here again, but it's not very good.

KitFox

I'll read it. It'd be good practice. Do you want to make it better?

GnomeSlice

16:29

Not really, I wrote it for a general elective last year in college.

It was fun though. Just a sec.

docs.google.com/document/d/…

The story begins partway down.

KitFox

Hey! That interfaces nicely with the half-finished novel I've got on my home computer.

GnomeSlice

@KitFox It what?

I'm guessing there's an 'interface' pun in there somewhere, hah.

KitFox

My first full novel idea. It starts with brain implants for wireless connectivity. I called it The Link.

GnomeSlice

@KitFox Hah, neato.

Well, feel free to steal ideas.

KitFox

16:47

Well, so anyway, there is another chat on Thursday evening (for US mainlanders) and I'll be here again next Tuesday.

GnomeSlice

Anyone read Paper Menagerie after I linked it?

KitFox

I'm reading it now.

Neil Fein

Downloaded it, haven't read it yet.

KitFox

It reminds me a little of the Bonesetter's Daughter.

GnomeSlice

Never heard of it.

I haven't been reading as much in recent years as I did when I was young. Dunno why.

KitFox

16:48

Not as much time.

GnomeSlice

Just looked it up, I see the aspects you'd be reminded of.

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