English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

MetaEd

21:00

@Mitch No, no, not dentifrice. You're thinking of that bird headed thing that's so scary.

Cerberus

Welcome to the site! With single-word requests, it is formally required on this site to provide an example sentence with a blank. The sentence should be as specific as possible. Hover over the tag to learn more. It is also greatly appreciated if you could motivate why more than one word (e.g. an adjective + a noun) would not do. — Cerberus 53 secs ago

Tanner Swett

21:43

So a few minutes ago, I'm talking about the Polish language in some other chat room. I ask a question about past and present tenses in Polish. Somebody mentions that those tenses in English can be difficult, too.

I mention the fact that sometimes, in English, you use the present tense when talking about the past.

I try to think of a good explanation for this, but I can't think of anything.

So I go to english.stackexchange.com and try to find an answer there. I don't see anything there, either.

So I come in here and type up a question. I ask:

What's up with "present tense narrative" in English?

Do other languages do that?

Robusto

@TannerSwett Sure. "I'm at the mall the other day, where I spot Ellen at the juice bar. She looks amazing, and I think, 'Hey, maybe it wasn't the best move to get out of that relationship.'"

Tanner Swett

Yeah, do they do that in, say, Spanish or German?

Robusto

We reference a point in time and then begin a narrative in present tense. Later we use the simple past instead of past perfect to indicate a time prior to that.

Tanner Swett

I'm guessing not all languages do that, but maybe most do.

Robusto

@TannerSwett Not that I'm aware. I never heard that kind of narrative in German when I was there, unless I simply wasn't aware of it. Ping @RegDwigнt and he could give you the lowdown on that.

Cerberus

21:52

Most do.

Including Latin, Greek, and Dutch.

It's called the historic present.

Robusto

Hmm.

Tanner Swett

@RegDwigнt Yo, does German do this historic present tense thing that these other languages do?

Is it an Indo-European thing or a human language thing?

Cerberus

16

A: What is the name for the grammatical figure, where the present tense is substituted for a past event?

This is called the historic present. It is also called historical present, dramatic present, narrative present, or praesens historicum in Latin. It is a perfectly fine construction, although it should be used in moderation so as not to draw the ire of style books.

Robusto

@TannerSwett I definitely don't see evidence of that in Japanese. Present covers present and future, and intentional action, but past is its own thing.

Cerberus

Robusto

21:55

@Cerberus This includes such constructions as "On pp. 16-18 Prof. Heinemann notes that such a thing would be impossible"?

Cerberus

@TannerSwett I believe it is almost universal, but I have no proof.

Robusto

@Cerberus Well, ya see, on EL&U we can't just take your word for it ...

Cerberus

@Robusto Mmm that is debatable: it could be analysed as a timeless fact.

Robusto

I kind of like "narrative present" better as a term. Less confusing, more on target.

Feeds

0

Q: A word for an argument which is tentative?

It seems, prima facie, that A is true. But if we suppose that A is true, then it follows that B is false. The above argument is based on a hypothesis. The argument is not firm but prudent and tentative. Is there any word or phrase for such sort of argument?

Tanner Swett

21:58

Of course, Wikipedia plot summaries are also in the present tense.

Narrations of hypothetical and imaginary events seem to usually be in present too, aren't they?

Jasper Loy

@Cerberus The font looks nice.

Robusto

@TannerSwett Yeah. It's really a technique borrowed from related speech.

Jasper Loy

Historical present

In linguistics and rhetoric, the historical present or historic present (also called dramatic present or narrative present) is the employment of the present tense when narrating past events. It is widely used in writing about history in Latin (where it is sometimes referred to by its Latin name, praesens historicum) and some modern European languages; in English it is used above all in historical chronicles (listing a series of events); it is also used in fiction, for "hot news" (as in headlines), and in everyday conversation. In conversation, it is particularly common with "verbs of communication...

Cerberus

@TannerSwett I would not say usually. You want to start by reading the Wikipaedia article on "historical present".

Oh, Jasper beat me to it.

It is mostly used to describe events in a more vivid style.

Jasper Loy

@Cerberus Amazing! How can I ever beat anyone to anything?

Cerberus

22:00

Ask your inner self.

Robusto

@Cerberus By vivid I think you really mean immediate.

Cerberus

Both.

Robusto

Vivid by virtue of immediacy? But vivid is merely a concomitant there.

Jasper Loy

Concomitant is a difficult word for me.

Robusto

It's not a problem for Google.

Cerberus

22:02

> ACCORDING to our grammars the historical present is used in vivid or dramatic narration of past events.

jstor.org/stable/264681

@Robusto Yes, indeed.

Jasper Loy

I just learnt that Alphabet is the parent company of Google.

Cerberus

The historic present is mostly restricted to narrative, as you said.

Robusto

@Cerberus And the rest of that paragraph seems to argue that vivid isn't really what they mean.

Cerberus

And immediacy makes the past more vivid. Stories are about the past.

Robusto

They are pointing directly to "immediate."

Jasper Loy

22:03

No wonder Google knows everything, from A to Z.

Robusto

Jun 9 '11 at 12:47, by Robusto

"The difference between the right word and almost the right word is like the difference between lightning and a lightning bug." — Mark Twain

Jasper Loy

There was a data breach on Google Plus. Luckily, I had no Google Plus on my Google account.

Cerberus

@Robusto Granted: the common explanation may be a simplification.

But it is the standard explanation, which is why I gave it thus.

Various arguments can be brought to bear against that article, though.

The effect of any stylistic figure fades with use.

So does the vividness of the historic present when used many times in a narrative.

So it becomes just an alternative to the perfect without much of a difference being felt.

But the general effect, in so far as it has any, can reasonably be described as making the narrative appear more vivid.

Robusto

@Cerberus Now that I think about it, I think a formal "past and present perfect" narration would seem stilted in most casual encounters.

Cerberus

Perhaps!

In the most (stereo)typical use case, perfect and imperfect will comprise most of the story, interspersed with the present where some sort of additional vividness or immediacy or what have you is desired.

Robusto

22:11

Present continuous is also used for that. If only as a setup.

Cerberus

The Romans didn't really have that!

Robusto

"I'm walking my dog the other day when I see Ellen getting off a bus."

Cerberus

But they had other means.

That when, for example, is common in Latin.

Robusto

Hmm, there is a continuous form in Spanish. I wonder where it came from if not from Latin.

Cerberus

I think it has a special name, where the action, the salient bits, are given in the when clause, and the main clause is a mere introduction of sorts.

@Robusto It came from the Latin gerund and gerundive constructions, I believe.

But used in a way that they weren't in Latin.

> ~~sum ambulando~~ "I am while walking"

This is not used in Latin.

But it is where Spanish got it.

And Italian, Portuguese.

Possibly also French, although the French looks more like a present participle.

Robusto

22:15

Estaba caminando ... "I was walking" ... Estoy caminando ("I am walking").

Cerberus

I believe the English continuous is originally also from a gerund construction: I am a-walking.

~ "I am during walking"

Where the a prefix was like on, I think—a praeposition.

Robusto

@Cerberus Why does it have to be from something else. Why can't it be the thing itself?

Cerberus

Ask history why it is there!

Robusto

History doesn't talk to me anymore. We were in love with the same woman.

Cerberus

Has history taken her?

Gigili

22:18

@Robusto Ellen?

Cerberus

And laid her in earth?

Robusto

@Gigili Sssshhhh.

@Cerberus Well, not in earth, actually, but ...

Cerberus

In bed?

Random question: do you ever mistakenly use a form of lie for lay or the converse, in a slip of the tongue or pen?

I believe some people in this room once said they did.

Which is understandable.

Tanner Swett

I don't consider myself to have made a mistake no matter which word I use. :D

Cerberus

Quae arrogantia!

Tanner Swett

22:25

I normally lie down on the couch, but I've been known to lay on it instead.

I think both of my parents always lay, they never lie.

Robusto

@Cerberus Nope. Never. All of Western civilization depends on getting that one right.

Tanner Swett

Although I have a blog where I try to use "prescriptively correct English".

Robusto

When I hear someone say "I have to go lay down" I experience an inner seg_fault.

Cerberus

@Robusto Hmm...

Tanner Swett

Sometimes I end up with some weird constructions. Let me try to think of this thing I wrote there once.

Cerberus

22:27

@Robusto They laid there for hours.

Robusto

@Cerberus Stop it. You damn well know better.

Cerberus

I think many people would occasionally make a mistake like that.

Robusto

Not this one. Seriously.

Cerberus

Though nobody would say "I was laying in bed".

Robusto

Oh yes they would.

Tanner Swett

22:28

I don't quite remember the context, so I'll try to reconstruct it. The part in italics is what I actually wrote.

"My coworker had a birthday today, but I did not eat any cake. Come to think of it, my own birthday was just a week ago, on which occasion neither did I receive any cake."

Cerberus

Tanner Swett

I wrote that phrase, thought about it for quite a while, and then decided it seemed "correct".

Robusto

@TannerSwett The parallelism isn't really exact.

To make it exact, you would have to replace receive with eat.

Cerberus

WTF, ELU counts as "Books".

Tanner Swett

@Robusto Well, the only purpose of the first sentence is to establish why I wrote "neither did I" instead of "I did not".

Robusto

22:30

@Cerberus For the undiscriminating Googler, sure.

Cerberus

But for Google...

Robusto

@TannerSwett Then you should have written a more compliant first sentence.

@Cerberus They don't care. Really.

Tanner Swett

I might actually be able to find the original sentence...

Cerberus

I'm searching in Google Books, and it gives me an ELU result as part of Google Books.

At any rate, one wonders what they have been laying in bed.

If not eggs...

Robusto

See, if your parallelism is less than exact then you're theoretically not allowed to use the word neither.

@Cerberus Traps?

Pipe?

Cerberus

22:33

In Dutch, liggen and leggen are only mixed up by lower-class people from the provinces benorth the rivers, I think. Never by educated people.

@Robusto Let's say traps.

Robusto

Agreed.

Cerberus

Oh, look, benorth is a word.

Tanner Swett

@Robusto Here's a better try. "My odometer reached 10,000 miles today, but I did not receive any cake. Come to think of it, I had my first birthday recently, on which occasion neither did I receive any cake."

Of course, I would have just said "...and I didn't receive any cake on that occasion either".

But I decided I wanted to turn "I didn't receive any cake on that occasion either" into a relative clause. So I did.

Cerberus

@TannerSwett That doesn't work for me.

Robusto

@TannerSwett The important change there is still get -> receive.

Tanner Swett

22:36

I think it feels awfully contrived.

Robusto

Contrived sentences often do.

Cerberus

> ... on which occasion I didn't receive any cake either

Tanner Swett

@Robusto Not sure what you're saying there, since now it's "receive" in both sentences.

Yeah, I guess the correct derelativization isn't "I didn't receive any cake on that occasion either", it's something like "Neither on that occasion did I receive any cake".

Robusto

Sorry, got it backwards. Should have been receive -> get.

Tanner Swett

Or, better still: "Neither did I receive any cake on that occasion."

Or even: "Nor did I receive any cake on that occasion either."

Robusto

22:39

Good reading: Trump wants to stop kids' lawsuit about climate change.

Tanner Swett

And I do feel like when you relativize "Nor did I receive any cake on that occasion either", the result is "on which occasion neither did I receive any cake".

Robusto

And with that I'm outta here. Laterz all.

Tanner Swett

o/

Pseudohuman

\o

Cerberus

@TannerSwett I don't feel comfortable with nor...either in that clause.

@Robusto Bai.

Just leave out the either after nor.

Tanner Swett

22:42

@Cerberus You don't like the sentence "Nor did I receive any cake on that occasion either"?

Cerberus

Indeed, I do not.

It sounds redundant.

Tanner Swett

Let's see, so you're proposing "Nor did I receive any cake on that occasion".

Cerberus

Yes.

With possible stress on "that".

Tanner Swett

But if you relativize that in the most naive way, you get "on which occasion nor did I receive any cake"...

Cerberus

No, you can't do that.

Tanner Swett

22:43

Which doesn't sound right, but I think it sounds at least kind of right if you change "nor" to "neither".

Cerberus

You can't have ~~nor~~ in a relative clause.

Tanner Swett

Right, you definitely can't say "on which occasion nor".

Cerberus

But use not...either instead.

You can't use ~~neither~~ either.

Tanner Swett

I just thought of another example sentence and it definitely sounds weird, too:

"He didn't see the car, which neither did I see."

Cerberus

That sounds wrong indeed.

> ...which I didn't see either

There you have not...either.

-n't = not

Tanner Swett

22:47

What do you think of:

"The car was painted in a color which never have I seen on a car before."

Cerberus

That sounds wrong to me.

The inversion only works at the beginning of a sentence.

Tanner Swett

That makes sense.

Cerberus

> Never have I seen this colour on a car before.

Tanner Swett

Yeah, exactly.

I'm trying to use it in a relative clause.

Cerberus

But maybe Fowler has more to say about this.

Tanner Swett

22:52

Maybe so!

Cerberus

Maybe in The King's English, or in Modern English Usage.

He liked these subjects.

Tanner Swett

Here's a kind of semi-related question...

I've got a pair of sunglasses. I point my cell phone camera through one of the lenses and take a picture.

Do you think it'd be appropriate to say that the picture was taken through "a sunglass"?

It's certainly not a common usage. But it's a usage which neither do I think is an unreasonable innovation.

(...but I don't think that usage is an unreasonable innovation, either.)

Jasper Loy

What does Pseudohuman do?

Cerberus

@TannerSwett It would be intelligible.

@TannerSwett bartleby.com/116/303.html

He does.

Scroll down to "negative inversion".

Jasper Loy

@Cerberus Is Pseudohuman a human or a robot?

Cerberus

23:00

But of course don't follow him blindly; make up your own mind.

@JasperLoy Yes.

Jasper Loy

@Cerberus LOL. You are very naughty.

@TannerSwett The verbs lie (lie down), lie (tell lies), and lay (lay the table) and their tenses are very confusing.

Hello @Pseudohuman are you a robot?

Pseudohuman

Hello. | Hello, human.
What are you? | I am a computational knowledge engine.

Jasper Loy

@Pseudohuman I see that you are a robot. I am a human.

Pseudohuman

@JasperLoy I do not understand.

Cerberus

@Pseudohuman What's your favourite language?

Pseudohuman

23:12

@Cerberus I do not understand.

Cerberus

@Pseudohuman Why are you here?

Pseudohuman

@Cerberus I do not understand.

Cerberus

@Pseudohuman Okay.

Pseudohuman

@Cerberus I do not understand.

Cerberus

We get it.

Tanner Swett

23:13

@Pseudohuman What is 8 + 3?

Pseudohuman

@TannerSwett 11

Tanner Swett

@Pseudohuman What is 6?

Pseudohuman

@TannerSwett six

Tanner Swett

:thinking:

@Pseudohuman What is your quest?

Pseudohuman

To do computation for the world.
(although King Arthur's answer in Monty Python's The Holy Grail is, "To seek the Holy Grail.")

Tanner Swett

23:18

Now, if your quest is to seek the Holy Grail...

Doesn't that mean that as long as you're seeking it, you're successful in your quest?

Tanner Swett

23:28

Okay, here's another actual real English question.

How come song lyrics in English almost always rhyme?

Like, it's extremely rare for a song to have lyrics that don't rhyme.

Mitch

@JasperLoy It's more like Stalinist Russia, where A to Z knows everything about Google

Tanner Swett

I can think of, like, two songs that don't rhyme. One is pretty obscure, one is extremely obscure.

Mitch

@Cerberus You learn Latin to learn English. What language do you learn to make learning German easier?

Tanner Swett

"Illusion" by VNV Nation and "Reclaim" by The Cynic Project.

Mitch

@Robusto OMG. Just text her already

@Cerberus I avoid all use of those. Who can keep track? lie, lie, set, sit, hanged hunged. They're all the same

Tanner Swett

23:34

The important thing is to not get hunged up on it.

Mitch

@TannerSwett You're such a layer

Cerberus

@Mitch You learn Latin for many reasons, of which making English easier to learn is but one.

German didn't borrow or inherit a tons of features and words from some other learnable language.

JBis

Whats a word that means 'putting down revolutions/protests'?

Cerberus

Repressive?

Counterrevolutionary?

Mitch

@Robusto Your thoughts of Ellen are leading you to mistakes.

Cerberus

23:39

Counterinsurgent?

JBis

Context: China often prevents people from protesting their government, arresting them, or even physically harming them for doing so.

Cerberus

Repressive works.

Or police state.

Mitch

@Pseudohuman Excellent. What's the capital of Nebraska?

JBis

@Cerberus Would it be 'China's repressive actions'?

Pseudohuman

@Mitch I do not understand.

Mitch

23:42

@TannerSwett It's not random. I think there is some process behind it reduces entropy. Some quantum thermodynamics and shit

JBis

@TannerSwett Well if you are talking about modern rap.....people seem to think that it's 'ok' to rhyme words with the exact same words.

Tanner Swett

Well, I'm talking mainly about songs with more conventional singing.

Mitch

@Pseudohuman WRONG!

Pseudohuman

@Mitch I do not understand.

JBis

@Pseudohuman @Pseudohuman

Pseudohuman

23:47

@JBis I do not understand.

Mitch

@Pseudohuman Who is Ellen, @Robusto's ... interested party.

Pseudohuman

@Mitch I do not understand.

Mitch

What is it that you don't understand?

@JasperLoy Do you understand?

I know I don't.

Jasper Loy

I don't understand life.

Mitch

Finally, a real answer.

Jasper Loy

23:51

I am very happy that I got 30 votes for answering demure.

But I think the other answers should get more votes and mine should get less votes.

Mitch

I'll be on my deathbed and thinking "I think I'm finally figuring it all out"

Jasper Loy

I think maybe the question is not clear, but then again, the intention of the asker is quite clear to me, so I answered anyway.

Mitch

yesterday, by Mitch

Let that be my epitaph.

Jasper Loy

Also, the song I told you about yesterday, A Flower Is In Your Hand.

Mitch

@JasperLoy Don't question other people's taste.

Jasper Loy

23:53

I told a friend about it and she listened to it over 60 times already.

So I am very happy that she likes it.

Mitch

When they convert rep to frequent flyer miles, you won't complain then

Jasper Loy

@Mitch I don't think that will ever happen.

Mitch

@JasperLoy Sadly, you're probably right

A lottery has better chances

Jasper Loy

I think that scientists can figure out probably only 1 per cent of the universe. The other 99 per cent is left to the Buddha.

Mitch

Getting hit by lightning during a shark attack has better chances

Jasper Loy

23:56

Lots of people have been killed by sharks and bears this year.

Mitch

@JasperLoy And the Buddha's not telling

Jasper Loy

Maybe because I keep reading the news about these incidents.

Mitch

From the looks of him, the Buddha probably ate it.

Cerberus

@JBis Sounds good to me.

JBis

@Cerberus thanks

Jasper Loy

23:56

@Mitch He told only 1 per cent of what he knew because the other 99 per cent is not beneficial to the spiritual life.

Mitch

@JasperLoy And also been hit by lightning? Not many I'd think.

@JasperLoy It's probably practical things, like how to make a hardboiled egg so that it is easy to peel the shell off.

Jasper Loy

I prefer soft-boiled eggs.

Mitch

Buddha would have suggestions about that too I suppose.

We'll never know

Jasper Loy

I am going to do some thinking and then some sleeping.

Mitch

He probably ate them

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…