English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

z7sg Ѫ

10:00 PM

@JasperLoy you mean like the little mermaid?

Cerberus

To say it nicely.

user19161

@z7sgѪ Yes. I looked it up and it says it can be both.

z7sg Ѫ

@JasperLoy maybe but i wouldn't call my son that

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus literature study can make empirical judgement?

user19161

@mahnax Boo!

Cerberus

10:01 PM

Depends on your definition of empirical.

Mahnax

@JasperLoy Hi.

Cerberus

In any case it helps you understand the workings of the mind and language.

user19161

Empirical has to do with the empire.

Matt Эллен

Well, I'll look one up...

Cerberus

In a way that even linguists lack.

Robusto

10:02 PM

A moderate man named RegDwight
Thought his name must be long to be right.
So he added some letters
To make it all betters,
And now "ΒВBẞ8" is the tail on that kite.

Cerberus

At least the typical Chomsky-inspired linguists, of whom we hear so much these days.

z7sg Ѫ

the arts is a huge collective exercise in intellectual masturbation

Cerberus

I would quote my friend Kamil, the Polish linguist on this.

user19161

@z7sgѪ WTF?

user19161

@Cerberus Is Chomsky Russian?

Cerberus

10:03 PM

It's funny how ignorant people in arts and sciences are of each other's fields.

z7sg Ѫ

yeah. going beyond aesthetics

Cerberus

@JasperLoy He is American.

z7sg Ѫ

it's all bullshit that humanity would be better off without

Cerberus

Because the advantages of the humanities are more complex and often long-term, many scientists are blind to them.

And they pick the (considerable number of) rotten apples to "prove" their point.

user19161

I think Robusto could publish his chat poems on the blog or something.

Matt Эллен

10:06 PM

> as a method empiricism advocates the collection and evaluation of data. In this sense the focus is on experimentation and an empirical investigation is one guided primarily by induction from observation rather than deduction from theoretical constructs.

Cerberus

I read low-quality scientific articles in the papers every day, but I know that's science is worth while.

@MattЭллен Now data need defining.

Matt Эллен

data

done

user19161

What is written in the newspapers usually is some journalistic perversion of the original.

Cerberus

How typical.

user19161

Look at the original and study the raw data yourself.

z7sg Ѫ

10:07 PM

it's the social dominance of the self-serving humanities that blinds people to the damage they are causing

user19161

Different people may interpret the raw data differently too.

Matt Эллен

> data The body of evidence or facts gathered in experiments or studies

Robusto

Oh fair Cerberus, look at you now
With your three heads and sextuple brow
You must wink in slow motion
Like the swell of an ocean.
But one tail's all that Zeus would allow.

Cerberus

When I see that many of the puns most appreciated in Shakespeare involve some kind of metaphor, for example, does this count as data?

user19161

For example, someone did some brain image studies and concluded that certain mental conditions had a physical cause. That's just nonsense. The difference in the images could be a result and not a cause of the condition.

Robusto

10:09 PM

@Cerberus It's beyond data.

Cerberus

@Robusto Haha, very nice.

@Robusto Perhaps. Depends on your definition.

Scientists don't even understand why definitions are important, most of the time.

Robusto

@Cerberus "The squirming facts exceed the squamous mind." — Wallace Stevens.

Cerberus

I don't mean this personally, because I know that the people in this room take the trouble to define things when asked.

z7sg Ѫ

how can a mind be 'squamous'?

Cerberus

@Robusto Hmm what does this mean?

Robusto

10:11 PM

@Cerberus Read the poem.

user19161

@Cerberus Many debates are also just arguments over different definitions.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus the definition of data is not so important. What is important is what you do with it. Sure, you can call qualitative measure such as "metaphors I see in Shakespeare's puns" can be data, but are you then collecting them and analysing them in an experiment?

Cerberus

@JasperLoy True.

Vitaly

> My dear chap, there was never a time in the early years of molecular biology when we sat around the table with a bunch of philosophers saying ‘let us define life first.’ We just went out there and found out what it was: a double helix. —Francis Crick, allegedly

Cerberus

@MattЭллен I think I lost track of what you were arguing for again?

Robusto

10:13 PM

@Vitaly And still the meaning of it all eludes us.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus don't worry about it! I'm just saying it's not what you call data that's important, but what you do with what you call data.

once it's science, it's not humanities

user19161

@Vitaly There is a bridge here called Double Helix Bridge.

user19161

It has the letters A, T, G, and C all over.

Robusto

@JasperLoy Wait, that's a card game.

user19161

Stands for the adenine tyrosine guanine and cyanine or whatever.

Robusto

10:15 PM

We know the letters and even what they do. But we don't know why they do it. And likely never will.

BTW, I think you mean cytosine.

user19161

@Robusto Ay yes, thanks!

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus essentially, I don't understand how you can understand what makes people laugh, at the level of understanding that we have about, say, how we perceive colour, without experiments

Robusto

And thymine.

Cerberus

@Robusto Ah, cool.

user19161

@Robusto Oops! I think the other two are wrong as well.

Cerberus

10:17 PM

I still don't quite get the "squamous" line. Does it suggest inflexibility?

Robusto

No. Adenine and guanine are correct.

z7sg Ѫ

aren't you basically talking about the distinction between knowledge a priori and posteriori and that this is an example of the former

@Cerberus it just sounds good, semantically it is out of place

Robusto

@Cerberus It suggests scaliness, in the epithelial sense. Elsewhere Stevens refers to thoughts as "casual exfoliations", IIRC.

z7sg Ѫ

it's a poem though so i can forgive that in the full context

Robusto

There's nothing to forgive.

user19161

10:19 PM

Deep.

Robusto

That's like forgiving a rainbow for not being part of a cloud.

z7sg Ѫ

there is nothing 'squamous' about my mind

i hate rainbows

user19161

Self gets and forgets, love gives and forgives

Robusto

@z7sgѪ So you don't generate and discard new thoughts, moods, ambitions, interests? You are always the same? Semper idem, semper fidelis?

Cerberus

@MattЭллен What is understanding? There are different kinds of information we can possess about a certain process. As to predicting it, this is usually preceded by a thorough characterization of the causes. We may make some advances there.

user19161

10:20 PM

If I remember correctly, Sai Baba said that and he has been exposed as a cheat.

Robusto

@z7sgѪ Irrelevant.

user19161

A video caught him pretending to manifest objects when he was really just trying to perform a magic trick.

Cerberus

@Robusto Ah, I see! That makes sense. But it's hard to distill out of this poem alone!

@z7sgѪ It does appear to be in place here.

Robusto

@Cerberus Nothing worthwhile was ever easily won.

Cerberus

@Robusto Not necessarily true; but I'm not complaining.

Robusto

10:23 PM

@Cerberus OK, nothing of lasting value was ever easily won. If it was too easy, it's too easy to lose interest in it.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Perhaps we need definitions of science v. humanities, then. In Dutch, we call them all wetenschap, and the distinction is not considered important.

user19161

Because there is nothing of lasting value in the first place. QED.

Robusto

The Trivium vs. the Quadrivium Smackdown! Oh, it is on!

Cerberus

@Robusto You might come up with something brilliant by a stroke of luck.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus to me: science is where people do experiments. Humanities is where they don't

Robusto

10:24 PM

@Cerberus Not without devoting a fair amount of effort to be in a position to appreciate said stroke of luck.

Matt Эллен

being an experimental writer (for example) is not the same as doing an experiment with the rigour that science demands

Robusto

@Cerberus "What you seek in vain for, half your life, one day you come full upon — all the family at dinner. You seek it like a dream, and as soon as you find it you become its prey." — Thoreau, quoted by Emerson.

z7sg Ѫ

@Robusto not in the manner of skin cells. that does not resonate with me at all

Robusto

How little the universe cares.

Matt Эллен

it cares not one jot

Cerberus

10:28 PM

My personal definitions are these. The sciences (exacte wetenschappen) are about subject matter that is to some degree discrete and can be quantified. The advantage is that it is easier to come up with true v. false.
The humanities (geesteswetenschappen) are about stuff that is very hard to quantify; it is dealt with in more complex, non-discrete ways, fuzzy logic, if you will. The advantage is that more complex systems can be understood in ways that would simply be impractical if you were to measure and quantify the intermediate steps. They also help to get an overview of things more easily.

@Robusto How about of you buy a lottery ticket and win?

Robusto

@Cerberus Then wealth is meaningless. The world is full of lottery winners who were not made happy by sudden wealth.

Cerberus

@Robusto But also many who were.

At least happier.

Robusto

@Cerberus If by happier you mean wealthier.

Cerberus

If you are in dire financial problems and you win € 100,000 with which you pay off your mortgage and never suffer similarly urgent problems ever again, it is of great value.

Robusto

If wealth = happiness, then your statement is true. But I think those things are not equivalent.

Cerberus

10:31 PM

Of course not.

Matt Эллен

I think it is also true if comfort == happiness

Cerberus

But wealth can conduce to happiness.

user19161

Happiness is also not equivalent to the absence of suffering in my definition.

Robusto

@Cerberus That's a very formal way to put it.

Cerberus

@Robusto Is that good?

user19161

10:33 PM

@Cerberus I guess we need wealth, health and stealth!

Robusto

@Cerberus In an academic paper, possibly. In chat? Hmm ...

Cerberus

What else would you have me say?

user19161

@Robusto Well, people use et al in chat too.

Robusto

@Cerberus Say what you like. I'm not telling you you're wrong, only that your statement struck me as out of register for the conversation.

z7sg Ѫ

well you were wrong then

Robusto

10:36 PM

I personally would have used the less opaque "help bring about" instead of "conduce to," but YMMV.

@z7sgѪ Hush.

Matt Эллен

I had to look up conduce

Robusto

Ah well, me missus is home, so Mahlzeit. Enjoy, humanists and scientists alike!

Matt Эллен

au revoir!

Cerberus

@Robusto You were arguing finer points, so I had to come up with as precise a statement as possible.

@Robusto Oh, the word conduce. I don't know, it was the first word that came up and I didn't stop to think about it. Of course it is a formal word.

user19161

@Robusto Good night!

Cerberus

10:39 PM

Tabee!

user19161

@Cerberus Well, I use thrice and albeit too.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus cat?

Cerberus

@JasperLoy By all means do so!

@MattЭллен It is a Dutch valediction.

Well, not really.

Matt Эллен

:D

Cerberus

Just a word you could use for "farewell", but it is either old fashioned or rural.

z7sg Ѫ

10:45 PM

the universe... is an intrinsically fair place where everyone is justly rewarded for their endeavours

Cerberus

Then the Jews must have been very lazy.

Matt Эллен

they got God to do all their work

Cerberus

And he punished them for that?

Matt Эллен

"Oh, we don't want to be slaves anymore, God, help us!"

z7sg Ѫ

the Jews I know are doing ok though

Cerberus

10:47 PM

I was talking about WWII.

user19161

Some say the Jews planned 911.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus then, you know, pay back for the loan of seven plagues or however many

Cerberus

@JasperLoy How preposterous. It was the Freemasons.

Again.

Matt Эллен

oh, and splitting an entire sea

God's gotta eat

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Ah, well, I bet they didn't know that was the price they were to pay.

Matt Эллен

10:48 PM

shoulda read the fine print

Cerberus

user19161

Although I am not Christian, I do believe in the existence of the Christian god as a being in the god realm.

Cerberus

I believe in the existence of the square circle in the realm of concepts.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus thanks! that would have killed the joke.

Cerberus

Mwah, kinda...

user19161

10:50 PM

@Cerberus Really?

Cerberus

Yes?

Surprised?

user19161

@Cerberus Yes. I think it is just a joke, but I was not joking.

user19161

Then again, I am not sure how to interpret your statement there...

z7sg Ѫ

one head is joking, the other is serious, the other god-knows-what, which one is speaking is anyone's guess

user19161

So @z7sg did you upgrade to Ubuntu 12.04?

Matt Эллен

10:53 PM

z7sg Ѫ

@JasperLoy yeah, best upgrade ever. no hitches at all for me

Matt Эллен

I drawed a picture

z7sg Ѫ

@Cerberus that "squaring the circle" thing is a nice way of thinking about what a transcendental number is

user19161

@MattЭллен Yes, just trolling me.

Matt Эллен

I think this comic strip is particularly relevant to the discussion

@JasperLoy no, just a picture

user19161

10:57 PM

@MattЭллен No, just in bieber.

Matt Эллен

never, ever, bieber

user19161

fever

Cerberus

@JasperLoy A square circle is a concept. It exists as such. As an actual shape, no.

user19161

@Cerberus Ah OK.

Cerberus

@z7sgѪ Right: a transcedental number may be a more useful concept than a square circle, though.

z7sg Ѫ

11:03 PM

just reading another reading of that poem where 'squamous' is taken more literally, meaning scaly as in scales of armour (of the bishops' minds) that are too rigid to handle the constantly changing facts of life

@Cerberus ah, i thought you were referring to the construction of a circle with the same area as a given square - without using pi. this is impossible because the number pi cannot be calculated using algebra

Cerberus

@z7sgѪ Could be...that was my first interpretation ("inflexibility"); but Rob knows more about it, and he convinced me with his flakiness.

@z7sgѪ Ah, I see. Nope, that wasn't what I had in mind at all: just a square circle. So how can pi be calculated, then?

For me it's just a given.

z7sg Ѫ

you can calculate it as an infinite series

Squaring the circle

Squaring the circle is a problem proposed by ancient geometers. It is the challenge of constructing a square with the same area as a given circle by using only a finite number of steps with compass and straightedge. More abstractly and more precisely, it may be taken to ask whether specified axioms of Euclidean geometry concerning the existence of lines and circles entail the existence of such a square. In 1882, the task was proven to be impossible, as a consequence of the Lindemann–Weierstrass theorem which proves that pi () is a transcendental, rather than an algebraic irrational numbe...

you can't do this though ^^^

Matt Эллен

11:53 PM

I am bushed. Good night.

Nathan C. Tresch

Invasion of the Nathans.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…