English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

kiamlaluno

2:15 PM

What is the direct object of to prove?

RegDwight

I can think of a few: hypothesis, it, that, him wrong. (^_^)

kiamlaluno

@RedDwight: I guess that "prove me that […]" is not correct, then.

RegDwight

Dunno. Sounds like German, to me.

Or Russian.

kiamlaluno

2:30 PM

@RegDwight: From the example you made, it seems the sentence should be "prove him wrong to me".

I think I am confused because in Italian we don't have direct and indirect object. :-)

RegDwight

Whoa, now that's news to me.

kiamlaluno

Well, we say "complemento oggetto"; there is no reference to "direct", or "indirect".

For example: in "I ate an apple", "an apple" is complemento oggetto.

In "I go to Rome", "to Rome" is _complemento di luogo".

Kosmonaut

@kiamlauno: Say "I gave him an apple"

RegDwight

What about I gave an apple to him?

kiamlaluno

(Nice editing)

Kosmonaut

2:35 PM

You use clitics in Italian

kiamlaluno

Clitics?

Kosmonaut

It should be "I him gave apple" right?

kiamlaluno

Uhmmm… no. Ho dato una mela a lui.

Kosmonaut

oh, to him, okay

Well "to him" is the indirect object

a lui

kiamlaluno

A lui means to him.

The order of the words is SVO also in Italian.

Kosmonaut

2:37 PM

I know, but many Romance languages use clitics

RegDwight

Okay, now how about this: John traded his apple and Jane's orange with her.

Kosmonaut

Like French is SVO, but they say "je t'aime"

kiamlaluno

The difference is that Italian has many type of complements.

Kosmonaut

t' is a clitic

Spanish "Yo me llamo", "me" is a clitic

RegDwight

Damelo!

kiamlaluno

2:38 PM

Oh, yes… Io ti amo, Io ti sposo, Io ti odio.

But it's Io amo te, Io odio te.

In both the cases, ti and te would be complemento oggetto.

RegDwight

@Kosmonaut: is me in damelo a mesoclitic or something?

Kosmonaut

@RegDwight: I think so.

kiamlaluno

I think in damelo there is no clitics.

Kosmonaut

Well, there is me and lo

RegDwight

You can say that in Italian, too?

kiamlaluno

2:42 PM

If it's like Italian dammelo, it means give it to me.

Kosmonaut

Right.

kiamlaluno

Right. :-)

RegDwight

My knowledge of Italian is limited to a few bits of Calabrese.

Kosmonaut

The idea of a clitic is that they aren't quite affixes, but they aren't quite independent words

kiamlaluno

Calabrian! :-)

I do love Calabrian.

I learned it from an American person. ;-)

(OK, end of the parenthesis.)

Right; dammelo means dai a me quello.

Calabrian is quite another language, as the dialect we speak in my town.

RegDwight

2:45 PM

Heh. I don't think my Calabrian friend would ever say that, that sounds way too formal.

Yeah right, Italian is a huge mess, every village speaks a language of its own.

Kosmonaut

In the case of dammelo, you have two clitics, and in the second form, they aren't clitics

kiamlaluno

They are called Italian dialects, but they are non dialects of Italian.

RegDwight

And they are even officially considered languages even without army or fleet.

kiamlaluno

@RegDwight: That is not true in Italy. Italian dialects are see like hell.

Kosmonaut

Ha.

kiamlaluno

2:47 PM

Actually, my dialect is a dialect of Lombard.

Kosmonaut

Oh, I used to play soccer in Lombard.

(Lombard the city in Illinois :)

kiamlaluno

People who emigrated keep their dialect like gold; it reminds them of their roots.

RegDwight

I seem to remember that depending on the "dialect", water is acqua, aqua, àcua, occa, eva,...

ægua

kiamlaluno

I learned Calabrian from a person who learned it from her grandmother, who emigrated in USA.

Pigliami una begga.

:-)

Begga is American Italian for bag.

Somebody else would say baga.

RegDwight

Wait a second, people play soccer in the US? @Kosmonaut.

kiamlaluno

2:52 PM

I live in the northern Italy; Calabrian is quite different from Brixian.

Kosmonaut

@RegDwight: As a matter of fact, a LOT of kids have played on soccer teams since the 1980s.

They just don't get interested in watching it on TV.

kiamlaluno

I guess they do. The USA team plays the world cup.

Kosmonaut

Because there is not much to watch.

So usually after high school, only a small number of people are still interested in soccer.

kiamlaluno

The less, the better. :-)

Kosmonaut

But, people are becoming more and more interested in the World Cup.

Lots of people watched the USA matches this summer.

RegDwight

2:57 PM

I must say that when there's a World Cup or a UEFA European Championship, I watch every single game, but once they're over, I find soccer extremely boring.

Kosmonaut

Haha, that's what I do! :)

kiamlaluno

@RegDwight: I guess you are European, then. :-)

RegDwight

Oh well, I've watched quite a few Super Bowls, too, but I don't think I would be interested in a "normal" game.

Kosmonaut

I don't watch American football except for the Superbowl usually.

I am mostly a baseball fan, with some hockey.

RegDwight

I've heard from quite a few Americans on separate occasions that baseball is the most boring game ever, but it becomes the greatest invention of the mankind if you're in a company of close friends and all of you totally wasted.

Just paraphrasing, don't mean to be disrespectful.

I totally pwn my wife on my Wii.

Kosmonaut

3:02 PM

Either you like it or you don't... I think it takes some time to appreciate what is going on.

But one nice thing is that it doesn't require your full attention at every moment.

In a soccer match, if you go to get a beer in the kitchen, you might miss the single most important moment of the whole match.

RegDwight

True dat.

Kosmonaut

But baseball has some really exciting tension. I can really enjoy it a lot, whether I am wasted or not (both are acceptable).

kiamlaluno

Is this question a not a real question, or is it off topic?

RegDwight

Heh. Are you one of those people who still know all kinds of crazy stats ten years later? I tend to forget everything once a World Cup is over.

kiamlaluno

-1

Q: to Dick or not to dick or to whom?

My Email was returned as obscene when I tried to address a guy with name Dick, well, by his name in that letter. As a matter of fact, I could not communicate him at all because his Email address embedded this obscenity in itself (by the respondent himself? or by his parents? or by church where...

RegDwight

3:05 PM

I must say that if the breasts question was flag-worthy, then this one should be nuked from orbit.

Kosmonaut

I wouldn't say I forget everything, and I can remember if I am reminded , but I am not a crazy stats guy

Oh man

RegDwight

But that is only my personal opinion, and I am biased as I understand what that Russian word means.

So far I have only commented, not close-voted.

kiamlaluno

I am glad I don't understand Russian. :-)

Well, apart of da, tovarich, niet. (whatever they should be written :-).)

RegDwight

You're not that far off, every Russian would understand.

Kosmonaut

I was the best man in a wedding yesterday for a Russian dude.

RegDwight

3:11 PM

Gor'ko! Gor'ko!

Kosmonaut

I said "pa-zdra-vlya-yu" and "za lyubov"

(This is how I wrote it to myself)

RegDwight

Excellent.

Kosmonaut

I had to practice that a lot :)

RegDwight

I am a bit astonished that you're not making your notes in IPA.

Kosmonaut

Well, the only thing that isn't IPA is the "l" and "y"

RegDwight

3:13 PM

But those are the most tricky parts! )))

kiamlaluno

(I forgot dasfidania :-).)

Kosmonaut

Well, I think the things that IPA helps the most for are vowels and eliminating digraphs

Maybe the "ly" is considered one consonant in Russian, but my pronunciation can't do that anyway :)

kiamlaluno

Speaking of IPA, I keep to not understand what the up down r would mean. :-)

Kosmonaut

He was marrying a Korean woman, so I also had to say "kənpe", which I wrote that way :0

:)

What do you mean by up down r

RegDwight

Whis up down R? There are a few

Kosmonaut

3:16 PM

Whis up down R? Huh?

kiamlaluno

Uhmmm… If I copy the letter here, will you see it?

RegDwight

ʁ, for starters

Fricative uvular, methinks.

Kosmonaut

Oh, upsidedown r

kiamlaluno

It's like that, but it's lowercase.

@Kosmonaut: Yes, like the cake. :-)

Kosmonaut

Right, so you want to know what the difference between upside down and rightside up is?

RegDwight

3:18 PM

Still trying to find Kosmonaut's comment where he used that symbol just a few days ago.

Kosmonaut

I used ʁ?

RegDwight

It was actually quite clear in context.

Kosmonaut

I used ɹ

RegDwight

No, that other one,

Exactly.

Kosmonaut

Right, okay, /ɹ/ is the English "r" sound

kiamlaluno

3:20 PM

@Kosmonaut: Is it the American English r?

Kosmonaut

Well, in British English, they have it too, but only at the beginning of syllables

RegDwight

Geez, there are many more upsideßdown Rs than I remembered. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…

Kosmonaut

But in some British dialects, it is /r/ instead

RegDwight

My IPA is rusty.

Kosmonaut

/r/ is like what they use in Bavaria

kiamlaluno

3:21 PM

(I only recently read that the American r is pronounced like a vowel.)

Kosmonaut

It is very vowel-like

RegDwight

In certain German words, it's transcribed as an upside-down a.

kiamlaluno

Perfect; the r in my dialect is like the German r. :-)

Kosmonaut

Right, in coda position (at the end of a syllable)

RegDwight

Bavarian != German, @kiamlaluno.

biːɐ̯

Kosmonaut

3:23 PM

That is the "r"-dropping, which they do in most British dialects as well

kiamlaluno

@RegDwight: That is true, but Bavaria is in Germany; I guess the official language is still German. :-)

RegDwight

@Kosmonaut: is there a term for the Americans sounding kind of more nasal than the British?

@kiamlaluno: tell that to Bavarians!

They even have a Wikipedia in their own language

Kosmonaut

"Nasality"? I don't think Americans sounds more nasal... but maybe we are...

RegDwight

It's a Free State with its own constitution, which theoretically still allows death penalties or something.

@Kosmonaut: it actually strikes me as pretty obvious, as an innocent bystander.

Take Warren Christopher or any of the Desperate Housewives.

kiamlaluno

American pronunciation should be more "from the throat", at least listening to the standard American pronunciation book. :-)

RegDwight

3:26 PM

Yeah, I have no idea if it's really nasal, hence the question.

It sure does sound completely different.

kiamlaluno

IMO, it's not nasal.

Kosmonaut

It sounds different, sure

But I don't think most people I know sound like Warren Christopher :)

I have never watched Desperate Housewives...

kiamlaluno

It's different, for sure. in American English, the pronunciation of Italy is different than the pronunciation in British English.

RegDwight

Well, Warren Christopher was just a (rather extreme) example off the top of my head. I could have picked Madeleine Albright or Hillary Clinton in lieu of the Desperate Housewives, actually, but there would be a pattern, and I didn't want to have that.

Kosmonaut

I am just trying to think of specific phonetic features of American English that cause more nasalization

RegDwight

3:30 PM

It certainly isn't nasal as in French or Polish, where you basically just have a few nasal sounds.

I'm really struggling to explain.

Kosmonaut

Well, we put nasality onto the preceding vowel before a nasal consonant

But I think British is the same in that regard.

Though I am not sure.

So if we say "hand", it is [hæ̃nd]

For most people

kiamlaluno

How do I force a space when I write an answer?

RegDwight

Hm. Perhaps.

You mean a blank line?

Or an  ?

kiamlaluno

I meant a not-breakable space. Can I write it as HTML entity?

RegDwight

I think so. Give it a try. I even used  once.

It worked.

Kosmonaut

3:39 PM

I get really frustrated at the way the numbering works

RegDwight

Geez, flags start coming in. You see that, @Kosmonaut?

BTW, I started flagging obvious dupes and off-topic questions for mod attention, as you suggested. Still not quite sure if that's the correct course of action.

Kosmonaut

I'm not sure if that is really "correct" either, but I find it helpful.

Although I actually wouldn't recommend it to everyone.

I would trust anything flagged by you — but not necessarily any random Joe.

2

RegDwight

Vielen Dank! Though previously, I would just close-vote, wait for the vote to age away, and flag for mod attention only after that.

Kosmonaut

Bitteschön

Well, I totally neglected that "close" tab in the Tools section... but now I am checking it

RegDwight

Yeah, it started being quite useful in the last few weeks or so.

Kosmonaut

3:44 PM

Traffic is a lot higher than it was.

I used to just read through everything, but now I miss stuff.

RegDwight

Yep. Just checked the StackExchange hub yesterday, it's insane. We used to struggle to get to 200, now it's 2500 visits per day.

kiamlaluno

Strange; it seemed to me there was not too much traffic.

RegDwight

Of course, that's still nothing by SO standards.

Kosmonaut

Our average is now higher than the highs of a few months ago

RegDwight

I miss lots of questions, too.

There was a time when I could actually claim, I have read every single post on this site, be it Question or Answer.

We have twice the number of registered users now, too.

Kosmonaut

3:48 PM

Yeah, I am pleased about that.

kiamlaluno

Can I use to encounter in a sentence like I am encountering more examples with […]?

Kosmonaut

yes.

RegDwight

Oh and by the way, back to kiamlaluno's original question, what about "prove me that"?

Kosmonaut

It could sort of work in very casual speech

But it is wrong

"prove to me that"

that is right

RegDwight

:438311

kiamlaluno

3:51 PM

To prove me that is wrong.

Kosmonaut

"to me"

RegDwight

Harr, how do these permalinks work...

1 hour ago, by kiamlaluno

@RegDwight: From the example you made, it seems the sentence should be "prove him wrong to me".

kiamlaluno

Write the link aline

I mean "write the link alone".

Kosmonaut

I don't think "prove him wrong to me" sounds right.

RegDwight

That was my understanding as well, but I wasn't sure.

Kosmonaut

3:53 PM

But I am not sure... because I can figure out a meaning from it, logically.

kiamlaluno

The direct object is what answers to the question "what? who?".

RegDwight

I must say that, for example, "prove to me that" sounds a bit off to me, I would go with the order "prove that to me".

Kosmonaut

Well, it was supposed to be "prove to me that...."

RegDwight

AAAAhhh.

Kosmonaut

"Prove to me that you are able to climb this ladder"

RegDwight

3:54 PM

Well, yeah, obviously. No, not talking about that that.

Kosmonaut

I didn't mean by itself... you are right that "prove that to me" is correct where "that" is a demonstrative.

kiamlaluno

Prove [what] he is wrong [to whom] to me.

Kosmonaut

"Prove to me that he is wrong" is a perfect sentence.

"Prove him wrong to me" seems to have a problem.

kiamlaluno

Does prove him wrong to me work to? It doesn't seem correct to me, after I pondered it more.

Kosmonaut

Something seems wrong with it.

Although, as someone who deals with these kinds of grammaticality judgments a lot, I know that sometimes a sentence can seem wrong, but then in the right context, it actually is fine.

kiamlaluno

3:57 PM

Let's see it's not correct; after all, I said it. ;-)

*say

Kosmonaut

I guess the problem is that "prove him wrong" has an implication of "prove to him that he is wrong"

RegDwight

There's something about that dative(?). For example, I think Prove his being wrong to me would work better.

Not that anybody would ever say that.

Kosmonaut

Haha.... "prove his being wrong" is a grammatical sentence, but it sounds so stuffy that it makes me laugh

RegDwight

I'll be here all day.

kiamlaluno

That sounds what I do; I keep to translate Italian ways of saying in English. :-)

Or that, or I invent them in English.

(I don't give a raccoon s*.)

RegDwight

4:01 PM

If you ask me, invention out of thin air beats literal translation from another language.

kiamlaluno

I am sure the effect is the same in both the cases, at least for me. :-)

Now let me see if I can restore my SSH keys on this Mac. :-)

kiamlaluno

4:24 PM

Do anybody know what happen when somebody reaches the 200 points limit in a day? Does he gets the votes counted in the next day?

RegDwight

No, the votes are simply not counted.

kiamlaluno

Oh.

RegDwight

Bounties and accepted answers are exempt from that, though.

So you can collect 200 points from upvotes alone, and then any number of points on top of that for accepted answers/bounties.

kiamlaluno

Yes. That is how i went over the day limit.

Is there a help page about how to get more points in your questions/answers? ;-)

RegDwight

There was that one day where I got 275 points (but 240 more were completely dismissed).

kiamlaluno

4:27 PM

@RegDwight: Ouch!

RegDwight

No, it's actually fair game. New users should have their chance, too.

Otherwise noone would ever be able to beat JonSkeet on StackOverflow.

kiamlaluno

That's true, but the fact one is voted doesn't mean other users don't get voted too.

Who votes you votes also other users.

I wonder why they wrote that it's me is not grammatical.

RegDwight

Well yeah, but we do have to level the playing field somewhat, otherwise rep becomes just an indication of how long you have been registered on a site, not how useful you've been.

kiamlaluno

@RegDwight: I agree on that.

Though, sometimes it seems to be an indication of how much news you are. :-)

RegDwight

Who wrote where that "it's me" is not grammatical?

kiamlaluno

4:32 PM

5

Q: "It's me" or "It's I"?

I was taught at school that following expression is invalid in the sense of grammar: Who is there? It's me. The correct one is: Who is there? It's I. Can you let me know which one is accurate? Here is a good explanation about both forms.

usage

Kosmonaut

Argh, what nonsense.

RegDwight

Hm, this flow of questions about I vs me just won't stop.

Kosmonaut

This is all because of everyone being afraid of "me".

Because we learn so much in school that "me and my friends went to the park" is wrong

RegDwight

Well, that's because "you" are a mod!

Kosmonaut

It should be "I"

RegDwight

4:35 PM

Sorry, cheap joke.

Kosmonaut

haha

Cheap "joke"

RegDwight

Heh.

Kosmonaut

Anyway, everybody seems to have this fear that "me" is going to sound informal.

RegDwight

Anyhow, we had that answer by nohat that accusative is the default anyway, shouldn't it be added to the FAQ or something.

Kosmonaut

Possibly.

kiamlaluno

4:37 PM

I think it would be easy to understand when to use I and when me.

At least it seems easy to me, and I speak Italian as first language.

Kosmonaut

It is easy. It's natural for everybody. They are overthinking it.

kiamlaluno

In Italian would be sono io, not sono me.

Kosmonaut

That is the problem.

RegDwight

7

A: Who wants ice-cream?

Generally speaking, in English, accusative (also known as “objective”) pronouns (like me) are the “default” form. That is, unless there is a specific syntactic rule requiring use of a different case, such as nominative (I), genitive (my/mine), or reflexive/intensive (myself), in English you use t...

Kosmonaut

There was another one with Nohat where I mentioned the way we label photos in English, which also supports that idea

RegDwight

4:39 PM

I'm already searching for that one right now.

3

A: Should I Put Myself Last ("me and you" vs "you and me")?

There is a tendency in informal speech and writing to use object pronouns when conjoined with other nouns or pronouns, even if serving as the subject of a verb. You never hear this usage if the subject is not conjoined; that is, no native speaker would say “me went for some ice cream” but “me and...

kiamlaluno

By the way, would sono io be a clitic too?

Kosmonaut

3

A: Should I Put Myself Last ("me and you" vs "you and me")?

There is a tendency in informal speech and writing to use object pronouns when conjoined with other nouns or pronouns, even if serving as the subject of a verb. You never hear this usage if the subject is not conjoined; that is, no native speaker would say “me went for some ice cream” but “me and...

No, "io" wouldn't be a clitic

RegDwight

Ha! FGITW!

Kosmonaut

I don't know enough about Italian to do the tests, but there are things you can do with words that you can't do with clitics, but you can do with "io" in that sentence.

Things with adverbs and stuff

"Sono solamente io"? I don't know if this is a correct sentence

If it is, that shows it is not a clitic

kiamlaluno

It's a correct sentence.

Kosmonaut

4:42 PM

I think that is a proper test for it.

kiamlaluno

I must say the NOAD on my Mac doesn't describe well what a clitic is; the example it makes is about 'm in I'm.

RegDwight

Not that this is related in the slightest, but I use a very similar test for anyway vs any way.

Kosmonaut

But dammelo you could not say "da-solamente-melo", you would have to change the sentence around

Yeah, certainly that works @RegDwight.

kiamlaluno

I usually interpret dammelo as da + me + lo. I thought it was a way to make a word by adding postfixes. :-)

Da is the imperative of dare (_to give).

I know, it's not imperative, in English; I keep to forget the right word.

RegDwight

Hm, I actually think it is imperative.

kiamlaluno

4:48 PM

By a coincidence, because I used the second singular person. :-)

Andiamo a casa would be imperative in Italian, but not in English.

RegDwight

Ah well, I think the word you try to remember was jussive.

kiamlaluno

That!

Facciamo silenzio!

RegDwight

It was your question, you should remember! (^_^)

6

Q: How is the jussive mood rendered in English?

In English the imperative mood is used only for the second person (differently from Italian, where what is called imperative mood is used also for the first, and third person). How is the jussive mood rendered in English?

usage verbs

kiamlaluno

I remember the word one day yes, one day not. :-)

Let's be quiet!

It doesn't seem it was an interesting question, though. Maybe it was just me who was wondering if there was a verb that could be used as modal verb for the jussive mood (different from let).

Kosmonaut

6:29 PM

dammelo is da + me + lo as you say, it's just that there is a linguistically useful distinction between affixes and clitics that makes this not a case of affixation, but cliticization.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…