English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Robusto

00:23

@tchrist: So a fellow cycling club member who is Mexican told me that the *-ón* suffix in Spanish is a kind of intensifier.
This was in response to my asking him why he always addresses a rather hefty fellow club member, Gordon, by accenting the second syllable. He said it's like calling him *Gordo* (fat) only in spades and with a critical subtext.
This logic would explain words like *huevón* and so forth. But I figured there is at least a chance he might be putting me on.
Thoughts?

tchrist

@Robusto It’s an augmentative suffix, yes.

Robusto

Hmm ... we don't have augmentative suffixes in English, do we? Only prefixes? I suppose unless you consider comparative and superlative suffixes to be augmentative.

tchrist

Spanish has more appreciative suffixes than I imagine you yet appreciate.

I can't think of an augmentative suffix for English off the top of my head.

hispanoteca.eu/Gram%C3%A1ticas/Gram%C3%A1tica%20espa%C3%B1ola/…

> El sufijo –ón ha conservado, aumentándolo, su significado latino (formaba derivados de hombres de partes del cuerpo para designar personas que las tenían de tamaño desmesurado o forma llamativa): barrigón, narigón, bocón, cabezón, etc. Esta desmesura condujo irremediablemente a dotar a este sufijo de un sentido apreciativo burlador, que se extendió a otro tipo de voces que no designaban cualidades físicas: beatón, solterón, etc.

That's voces in the sense of "glosses"

Robusto

@tchrist Hmm, I guess I don't understand the distinction between aumentativos and peyorativos. My friend seemed to be combining the two into one idea.

tchrist

> Esta desmesura condujo irremediablemente a dotar a este sufijo de un sentido apreciativo burlador

So yes, it's perilous to use augmentatives non-pejoratively.

Robusto

00:35

Ah. That makes sense. Gracias.

tchrist

These certainly exist, but you should never try to invent them because you need to have the cultural context that says whether it's a nasty one.

Robusto

Yes. Best to tread lightly in that respect.

tchrist

> Su función propiamente románica es la aumentativa ...Y casi siempre colorea las voces de un fuerte sentido peyorativo (aunque, en ocasiones, dependiendo del contexto, puedan tener un matiz meliorativo). Como consecuencia de esta pujanza, -ón desbordó la esfera nominal, y pasó también a formar grupo muy importante3 de derivados sobre verbos. A partir de aquí es de donde prospera su valor de “golpe” y, específicamente, “golpe dado con”, o “recibido en” (madrugón, manotón, pescozón, etc.).

Voces are here "glosses" not "voices", so vocabulary terms.

> «Una de las oposiciones más contrastadas entre lenguas germánicas y lenguas románicas es la mayor flexibilidad de estas últimas en la formación de nuevas palabras mediante una sufijación rica en matices, constituida por los llamados apreciativos.

The only ones we really have in English were borrowed from French or Spanish.

Robusto

Yes.

That's very interesting.

tchrist

> Existe una suerte de “encadenamiento” de las funciones del diminutivo que nos obligará a salirnos del campo de la racionalidad si queremos entenderlas

Robusto

00:40

Haha.

tchrist

If you find someone using one specific diminutive "all the time" to create new words, you can tell where they're from because these are strongly regionally "biased" or preferred. But if they just re-use existing terms that are long established, it won't count because these have come from everywhere.

Robusto

Hey, why aren't italics working in chat today?

tchrist

They are.

Robusto

Or maybe they are now.

tchrist

On the same line.

Robusto

00:42

Ah, my first chat message above has multiple line breaks. I guess they don't work in that case.

tchrist

The blank zones they're just being pissy about.

Portugal has the same as Galician, but spelled -inho for the same pronunciation.

Cataluña has -ete.

You can see how Catalan is converging on French -ette.

But it's really a langue d'oc more than it is a wholly Iberian tongue.

Robusto

@tchrist Yes.

tchrist

There are a few diminutives that are pejorative.

Mexico uses -ito.

Robusto

Many more are affectionate.

tchrist

That's right.

Robusto

00:45

Abuelito is not pejorative.

tchrist

I'm trying to think of an example. A casucha is a nasty little shack not a proper casa.

But the emphasis is on the nastiness.

Notice how many pejoratives there are in that chart.

Robusto

Yes.

tchrist

A mariconazo is not a word you want to call someone.

"Big ole fag"

You can't really go wrong with -ito. Pick up anything else when you hear people using it.

Robusto

Heh. I was also advised to avoid references to someone's mother.

tchrist

A mujeraca is also nasty.

@Robusto Which someone? :)

A mujerona is probably a mountain of a woman.

Robusto

00:51

@tchrist Uh, Trump?

Speaking of which, did you see this bit of news? dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4698558/…

Let's hope the whole facade is cracking.

tchrist

I did. The edges are starting to crumble a little. Here and there you'll see a Republican in Congress who's had enough, too. Not much, not yet, but a start.

In the House, people like Leonard Lance and Bill Flores are losing stamina.

Robusto

House of cards ...

tchrist

Lee Zeldin

The Senate is a little different.

But not much.

The wave has to start in the House of course.

Or the movement, if you would.

Eventually, the indictment. But we're a long ways off, no matter what.

Even if it's Monday.

But it won't be.

Robusto

In all my years I can't think of a more perilous time for the republic than this one.

tchrist

If the British has occupied us after the War of 1812, perhaps.

But we wouldn't have put up with it.

The problem here is the putting up with it.

Robusto

01:00

It's as if they want to destroy the country just to spite liberals.

The country? Nay, the entire planet ...

tchrist

It's a lot more complicated than any simple statement can hope to encompass.

Robusto

I'll blacken your Christmas
And piss on your floor
You'll cry out for mercy
Still there will be more

tchrist

We're going to see indictments and arrests in the administration first, and Mueller isn't going to do that until he's good and ready with all the goods he needs.

Robusto

It can't come soon enough.

tchrist

If we're lucky, he'll indict Pence but that's a lot harder than Kush and Junior.

Robusto

01:04

Pence was in the same meetings, mostly.

tchrist

Oh, I know.

But he's not involved with the Russian money laundering.

Robusto

That we know of.

tchrist

I'm talking about the last 30 years of Trumpworld.

Not the recent stuff.

Mueller will annihilate Trump's business, if he gets the time.

If Pence is indicted, Trump won't risk himself by pardoning him unless he also has to do so for Kush or Junior.

Because at that point, it's all over.

Same with firing Mueller.

Robusto

He'll pardon his kids and kids-in-law at the drop of a hat.

tchrist

Yes and no.

Remember how stupid he is.

Robusto

01:08

Exactly what I'm thinking.

tchrist

He thinks of his presidential powers as superhero powers.

He doesn't understand anything about what he can get away with. He doesn't understand that Justice is not his personal fief.

Robusto

He thinks he's already a dictator, and chafes mightily at any democratic process.

tchrist

If he starts pardoning family for clearly criminal acts, Congress will fold.

Pence, I'm not sure.

Robusto

@tchrist And do what, precisely?

May 27 at 2:42, by Robusto

Yeah, but I wouldn't want to hang from a rope until the Republican Congress grows a spine, or a sense of duty, or honor, or humanity ...

tchrist

Both the Senate and House leadership told him — but he's going to have forgotten it — in no uncertain terms that if he turned around and just off and fired Mueller, he would be impeached.

The Republican leadership told him that. Privately.

He'll still probably try to do it.

It will go very badly, because Schiff's prediction will play out.

Congress will just hire Mueller.

That will require a new law, which Trump will veto.

But to get the new law, it will have needed 60 in the Senate already and a simple majority in the House. The two-thirds needed for veto override will be easy because they'll be pissed at the veto.

I don't think anybody can predict how this ends.

In any other world, he'd resign.

I don't think he knows how to do that.

Robusto

01:14

@tchrist No. The dark scenario involves the Republicans doubling down on fascism.

tchrist

There aren't enough of the neo-Nazis in power yet.

Bannon, sure.

But he's not in Congress.

Robusto

Why does he still have a security clearance?

Why does Kushner, for that matter?

tchrist

Bannon was given a retroactive waiver on various things. Which of course is not even legal.

You can't get a retroactive waiver; we call that a pardon.

Who's going to yank the clearance?

This is the flaw in all this.

Robusto

Who grants clearances?

tchrist

The executive branch.

This is the problem.

The Office of Personnel Security and Suitability.

Which works with the FBI.

Maybe that's only at State. Not sure.

Robusto

01:19

Trump shouldn't even have a clearance. He's amply demonstrated he's not worthy of it.

tchrist

Duh.

I believe that security clearances, and their revocation, are functions of old executive orders to set them up.

At the end of the day, the only one who can revoke Kushner's interim clearance is going to be Trump.

And he won't.

Robusto

No. He won't.

tchrist

You know how Trump fired Comey in the worst possible way imaginable, right? Without notice while he was on the other side of the country holding a meeting with agents?

Completely dishonorable. You're supposed to work these things out well in advance. Not surprise people.

The entire FBI was outraged by this.

So....

Turnabout is possible.

Once Mueller gets the already-impanelled Virginia grand jury to issue indictments and arrest warrants, there is no reason whatsoever for Justice to work out anything with these people so they don't get maximal embarrassment.

And plenty of reason, or at least animus, why not to.

Robusto

@tchrist Well, yeah, but nobody ever accused Trump of having any class or restraint or consideration for others ...

@tchrist Well, I hope you're right.

Plus the fool went on to say he fired Comey because of the Russian thing ...

tchrist

It may be a progressive fantasy, of course. But I would not be surprised.

He's a complete and utter fool.

He simply is too stupid to survive. He lies and break laws constantly. He simply doesn't understand that government work that way. He's always gotten away with it up till now. Barely.

But the FBI won't be paid off, and neither will the judiciary.

Robusto

01:30

Some people think he's a genius. It's mind-boggling, but they do.

tchrist

And they don't put up with conmen. At all. Neither of them.

You cannot bluster and insult a judge. You cannot perjure yourself under oath.

Junior is going to do that, you know.

He stupidly volunteered to testify under oath to Congress.

Robusto

Of course. Because if he tells the truth it's the same result.

tchrist

We'll see. Mueller may work something else out first.

I don't believe that bloodline is capable of NOT lying.

Can you imagine Mueller's team deposing any of these guys for hours and hours?

That will be under oath. They will die in prison.

Robusto

@tchrist These are people who kill leopards for fun. Who hunt prairie dogs with assault rifles. Lots of laughs there, right?

tchrist

I know. They're just fucking mafiosi. What do you expect?

The important thing is for Congress not to screw up and grant immunity for testimony.

Robusto

01:34

What did I expect? I guess I expected our country to be smarter. You'd think after all these years I would have learned that lesson ...

tchrist

It couldn't have happened 40 years ago.

You had people running things who hadn't grown up with television. You had people running things who hadn't grown up with the internet.

Nixon was awful, but he was not incompetent.

Now we're all in Postman's dystopia; think Huxley. I don't know any way out.

Robusto

The Internet is a destructive force at least as much as it is a constructive one.

tchrist

theguardian.com/media/2017/feb/02/…

Robusto

It's what happens when there's a paradigm shift that distributes power. Look at Gutenberg. He was directly responsible for the Protestant Reformation, and all the discord that resulted from that.

tchrist

> My dad predicted Trump in 1985 – it's not Orwell, he warned, it's Brave New World

That's Postman's kid.

> Over the last year, as the presidential campaign grew increasingly bizarre and Donald Trump took us places we had never been before, I saw a spike in media references to Amusing Ourselves to Death, a book written by my late father, Neil Postman, which anticipated back in 1985 so much about what has become of our current public discourse.

I don't know if you're read Amusing Ourselves to Death.

I did, when it first came out.

Robusto

01:42

I haven't read that.

tchrist

Politics is become show business.

Robusto

Everything has become show business.

tchrist

> Our public discourse has become so trivialized, it’s astounding that we still cling to the word “debates” for what our presidential candidates do onstage when facing each other. Really? Who can be shocked by the rise of a reality TV star, a man given to loud, inflammatory statements, many of which are spectacularly untrue but virtually all of which make for what used to be called “good television”?

The Guardian article is short enough to be worth reading.

Tonepoet

@tchrist I doubt there was a time during my lifetime when politics hasn't been a sort of show business. The only difference now is that it's a burlesque show.

Robusto

I'll take a look.

tchrist

01:48

> What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one.
Orwell feared those who would deprive us of information. Huxley feared those who would give us so much that we would be reduced to passivity and egoism. Orwell feared that the truth would be concealed from us. Huxley feared the truth would be drowned in a sea of irrelevance. Orwell feared we would become a captive culture. Huxley feared we would become a trivial culture.

A famous Postman quote.

> The idea that there is a party representing the left (or the people, for that matter) in the U.S. is ludicrous. We have a right-wing party representing the oligarchy—the Democrats—and an insanely right-wing party—the Republicans—that represents an extremist fringe of the rich, including folks like the Koch brothers, Betsy DeVos etc. More about this in a moment, but back to the Democrats for now.

Steven Brust would agree.

dreamcafe.com/2017/07/13/…

But the first quote was from img.alternet.org/right-wing/america-oligarchy

> What next? A threat to democracy? Please. Before Trump even announced his candidacy there was still the reactionary, anti-working class, racist “war on drugs” that was busily disenfranchising huge sections of the population.
There was NSA spying on civilians, increasing police terrorism, “constitution free zones,” a press that was overwhelmingly afraid to publish anything not approved by the intelligence community, brutal persecution of whistle blowers, “free speech zones”—you name it. All sorts of things that threaten democracy one hell of a lot more than revelations that a candidate eng…

That one's Brust. And you should still read his Jhereg.

Robusto

Yeah.

tchrist

The abacus beckons.

Read: time for Chinese take-away.

Robusto

Bon appetit.

SmokeDetector

06:14

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] No whitespace in answer: Meaningful English sentences containing very few distinct letters by Alexandra Gail on english.SE

Færd

09:18

@Cerberus Isn't it Rābi'a perchance? 'Cause that one's a fairly common female name too, even in Iran, meaning fourth.

Sorry to drag it out, if I am.

Soha Farhin Pine

14:45

One of my first answers: english.stackexchange.com/questions/348312/…

Please give a feedback.

user288256

15:57

@Tonepoet If I write "hadn't been" there will that be correct too?

user288256

The sentence starts with "was" that's why I asked.

Tonepoet

@Ghalib Are you asking if I would rephrase my sentence, or is there some other context that you have not shown me?

user288256

@Tonepoet I'm asking can say I same thing like this: "I doubt there was a time during my lifetime when politics hadn't been a sort of show business."

tchrist

@Ghalib I wouldn't.

Tonepoet

@Ghalib It seems quite strange to me, but I really couldn't tell you why so I am hesitant to call it incorrect. I am not as knowledgeable about the subject as I would like to be.

user288256

16:02

@tchrist But isn't my sentence following the sequence of tenses? That's why I asked.

user288256

@Tonepoet I see, thanks.

Tonepoet

Gosh darnit, there's that phrase again. This is the second time as of late I've been questioned about it! XP

user288256

What phrase?

Tonepoet

This phrase. ;-)

user288256

Oh that.

Tonepoet

16:05

Yes that.

user288256

Well, grammar is hard.

user288256

I still get confused sometimes.

Tonepoet

Every time I try to sit down with a grammar textbook, I stop reading before I get very far, unless I want to know about a certain subject.

user288256

Do you find it boring?

Tonepoet

I don't know why really.

user288256

16:08

I only cherry pick things in a grammar book. Like "tenses" etc.

user288256

Otherwise I find such books quite boring.

Tonepoet

@Ghalib It's cherry pick.

user288256

Yep. Sorry, typo :)

user288256

Oh, don't remove it. It's fine.

Tonepoet

It's too late anyway.

user288256

16:10

Yeah

tchrist

16:47

@Robusto This just-published article answers your question, and appears to align with I was saying last night. As with so many things, our country here again relies not on laws but on personal honor to stave off unthinkable corruption, and upon the electorate to discern the character of those they vote for.

Færd

18:29

Why does the verb manĝi sound familiar to me? I bet it has a cognate in English, which eludes me.

Cerberus

20:12

@Færd Well, you probably know French manger and Italian mangiare?

In English, manger is the only word I can think of.

Except if you take the indirect route: then mandible is probably related.

There's also the mange.

Færd

20:27

@Cerberus Haha, no, it was munch I guess! Which is of dubious origin, apparently.

Cerberus

Ah!

I hadn't though of that.

tchrist

22:09

@Færd I hate to say this, but could it be that you have seen too many old American movies with Italian mothers saying "Mangi, mangi!" in the "tu" (2nd person singular) imperative of that verb in Italian? :)

As @Cerberus mentions in his mind, it doesn't appear that Latin manduco has bequeathed any vestiges (morsels? :) of that word to English.

I almost feel left out in English. :)

"Everybody else got one, how come we don't rate?" :)

@Cerberus Not that I can see. They point to mandibula having somehow come from mando/mandere.

Oh never mind, manduco is derived.

Cerberus

Yes, they're all from mando.

tchrist

Right.

I too often think of the other mando, the 1st not 3rd conjugation one that's given so many -mand verbs.

The French and Occitan and Italian and Catalan ones are the normal words for eating; the Spanish and Portuguese ones are "special" verbs for it with a slanted meaning, the same as "parlar" isn't the "normal" word for speaking there.

Cerberus

22:26

Odd people.

I presume mandare is from manum dare?

And I think mandere is related to madēre "moisten".

tchrist

I honestly don't know without looking.

Mitch

22:59

wait...so all the child languages use a derivative of 'mandare' not 'edere'?

oh...those are just the cognates not necessarily the commonest word for 'to eat' in those languages.

SP comer

So English isn't the only language with multiple vocab sources/layers. fancy talk and regular talk

I know that's a little... extrapolatative.

extrapolationary

excessive

tchrist

23:26

@Mitch Of course, but that's not quite what's happening here. Often when you find that two languages have near-identical cognates for the same word that in one of them that word has a special, narrow meaning in one and not the other.

But yes, sometimes it's simply in the wrong register.

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