English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

01:31

@leo Aside from that.

Of is not really possible.

There's not really a reason.

leo

I see

Thanks

Cerberus

I'm sorry for using the word really all the time.

Færd

@Cerberus That's pretty good. Thanks.

Cerberus

Oh!

Færd

@Tonepoet Useful term!

Cerberus

01:44

How are things in the east?

Færd

The East of Eden?

Cerberus

Well, I'm not sure where Eden lies.

Perhaps you are in it.

Tonepoet

Færd

@Cerberus We're not in it, for sure.

Tonepoet

I had to do it, even though I never actually watched the show. XP

Færd

01:46

I didn't know there was a show.

Cerberus

I think it's really funny how Tonepoet is a fan of 19th-century grammarians and modern Japanese cartoons at the same time.

But perhaps I'm the only one.

Færd

@Cerberus Agreed.

Cerberus

@Færd But no doubt it is close! Tehran looks paradisical in pictures.

Færd

Virtually every city does, on its Wiki page.

An ocean of smog hangs above us all the time. How about that.

Cerberus

But it's never dull!

Nor flat.

Nor yet bourgeois.

Færd

01:49

Yeah. Has its ups and downs.

Cerberus

We have neither ups nor downs.

Just flatness.

Færd

Well.

Cerberus

And your city is no doubt much older.

Færd

Some parts of it, yes.

Cerberus

We are still far removed from our first millennium.

My birthplace isn't, though.

Færd

01:51

There were small towns that joined and blended together into today's Tehran.

Some of them pretty old.

Cerberus

There's no shame in that.

Look at Rome.

Færd

@Cerberus The parts that were reclaimed from the sea?

Cerberus

It's annoying how Wikipaedia doesn't have the year of foundation or first habitation in the "fact box".

What could be more essential to a city?

Færd

Maybe that's hard to define, or figure out.

Cerberus

@Færd Mmm not exactly: it was a swamp before we came here, no sea.

Færd

01:53

I sea.

Cerberus

> The origin of the name Tehran is uncertain.[14] The settlement of Tehran dates back over 7,000 years.[15]

Færd

Wow.

Cerberus

How hard is it to put "> 7000 years ago" in the fact box?

Færd

Is that a routine that they don't include it there?

Cerberus

Yes.

> Amsterdam is much younger than Dutch cities such as Nijmegen, Rotterdam, and Utrecht. In October 2008, historical geographer Chris de Bont suggested that the land around Amsterdam was being reclaimed as early as the late 10th century. This does not necessarily mean that there was already a settlement then, since reclamation of land may not have been for farming—it may have been for peat, for use as fuel.[28]

Amsterdam was granted city rights in either 1300 or 1306.

Færd

01:55

Pretty young.

Cerberus

Yeah.

Luckily, we do have some holocoene settlements in the country, I believe.

Færd

@Cerberus Maybe not everyone is as fond of history as you are.

I do believe that that's kinda essential info though.

Cerberus

@Færd The lower and upper classes value tradition.

Færd

Nice.

Cerberus

Too bad they aren't in charge any more.

But at least the demolish of monuments has ended here.

Færd

01:59

Wow. The wiki page for Tehran revives so many memories.

Cerberus

While all new buildings are constructed in an ugly style here, they will preserve all old buildings now.

Færd

@Cerberus Wait for ISIS for that.

Cerberus

@Færd It's very nice!

Færd

Ah. Old buildings.

Cerberus

@Færd I think we will have to wait a very, very long time.

Alas, ISIS is nigh its end.

Færd

02:00

I tell tourists who come to Tehran that they've probably seen more of the city that I have in the last ten years.

Cerberus

It's always like that.

It took me ten years to visit the royal palace on the Dam.

Færd

But I used to get around more as a young boy. The country and the city.

Why do we become so sedimentary.

It's good to see tourists round here. Helps with the phobias. Politically important.

Benefits both sides.

Cerberus

@Færd We don't have to be!

user285oo6

Hi everyone I have a dilemma of where the question can be asked. It's regarding calligraphy/handwriting/penmanship

Cerberus

I was about to spend a sedentary night at home, when two visitors to the city messaged me, and I spent the night in various pubs.

@Færd Ah, you're lucky to still welcome tourists!

We get so many, we loathe and despise them.

@user285oo6 Ah!

So what would your question be?

English.SE is a very close-happy site.

Færd

02:07

@Cerberus We do give some Afghans and Arabs a hard time though.

Some do.

Cerberus

Hmm.

And those are tourists?

How do you give them a hard time?

Færd

Afghans come here mostly for work. For labor.

Some don't get enough care or are abused.

Cerberus

That is another matter.

Færd

They work for lower wages, and that angers the domestic workforce.

Cerberus

Not all foreigners are tourists!

@Færd It's the same everywhere...

Færd

02:09

Yeah. Immigrants.

Cerberus

Here, we have the Poles, the Turks, the Moroccans...

Færd

I don't think we have many Afghan tourists.

@Cerberus Who come for work?

user285oo6

@Cerberus it's how to improve ones handwriting who is into pg and has been doing lots of practice books

Færd

Arabs, yeah, maybe. Are pilgrims tourists?

Cerberus

@Færd Yes.

Although their descendants receive disproportionally many benefits from the state—another cause of xenophobia.

@user285oo6 Pg?

@Færd If they leave soon, I suppose they are?

Færd

02:13

@Cerberus But you elected those who welcome tourists and immigrants, or so I heard from that Dutch girl.

user285oo6

@Cerberus postgraduate

Færd

@Cerberus Then we have a lot of Arab touristss too. From Iraq, mostly, and Saudi Arabia before some imbeciles attacked their embassy.

Cerberus

@Færd Well, the xenophobic party did not grow much beyond the the number of seats they have had since 2002 or so, about 15%.

So no worries.

@Færd Ah, I heard about that.

Things have not yet returned to normal?

Færd

Not sure. SA slackened some after Trump's election.

I don't know about the comings and goings though.

Cerberus

Hmm.

Færd

02:17

Iranians will probably be able to go to Hajj this year.

Cerberus

I really wish oil had not been found in Arabia.

Oh, that's nice.

Færd

@Cerberus Maybe they thrive on terrorist attacks. Good you haven't had any.

Cerberus

(Or that the extremist sect had not come to power there.)

Færd

Yeah.

Cerberus

@Færd We haven't, but I'm not sure a terrorist attack would change that much.

Færd

02:19

It helped with Le Pen's campaign.

Cerberus

You think so?

Færd

Well, naturally they use this stuff to justify their policies, no?

Cerberus

There was an attack not long before the elections, but it didn't increase her polling results.

@Færd They try, but the effect is not that great.

Færd

I thought that was part of the reason why she was more popular than her father.

Cerberus

It's funny how ISIS and the anti-Muslim parties in Europe are sort of allies.

@Færd Mm perhaps there is some effect.

Færd

02:21

That she got to justify her beliefs and policies with recent evidence.

@Cerberus There are ISIS parties?

Cerberus

But, actually, her campaign this season was perhaps more about the EU than about Muslims.

@Færd No...

Færd

@Cerberus Ah, misread it.

Cerberus

ISIS on the one hand, and anti-Muslim parties on the other.

OK.

Færd

@Cerberus In what ways?

In frightening the general public.

Cerberus

@Færd Both may profit from terrorist attacks...

Færd

02:25

Yeah.

Cerberus

It is believed that ISIS is trying to incite xenophobia in Europe.

Which will turn Muslims against Europe.

And from the resulting hostility, ISIS will profit.

Færd

Idiots.

Cerberus

Of course.

user285oo6

So can I ask on the site " How to improve English handwriting, does it depend on the education level at which you are that you cannot"

Cerberus

@Færd Luckily, the situation is mostly quite stable..

@user285oo6 I think that would be too vague.

You'd have to be more specific.

user285oo6

02:29

Ok give some suggestions

I have poor handwriting and many say I cannot improve my Handwriting at post graduate level of education. How true is that

Færd

@Cerberus If the fragments could eventually form a coalition and be united that would make a substantial change.

They do dream of conquering the whole world, bringing it under the rule of a caliph.

Cerberus

@Færd Uhh there is only one fragment per country.

Oh, that.

Well, Al Qaeda has been somewhat united for a long time, but it got them nowhere.

Færd

Traditional belief goes that a unified force will rise from Syria, and they will head to Mecca to seize it.

Cerberus

They won't.

The Saudi army is huge.

And IS is weaker than ever.

Færd

Well, I just recited some prophecies from about a thousand years ago.

Cerberus

02:37

Raqqa will be liberated soon.

IS will soon end to all practical purposes.

Færd

It will go underground.

Cerberus

Sure.

But that's nothing.

Without their oil money.

Færd

Hmm.

Cerberus

It's all about money.

Færd

Yeah. Who buys the oil again?

Cerberus

02:39

I believe the Turkish companies who have assisted IS in smuggling the oil out have been curtailed by Erdogan for a while now.

IS will soon control no oil field at al any more.

Færd

Good.

Cerberus

At least the Taliban have drugs money.

But you need a territory even for that.

And IS will soon have nothing.

Perhaps a new movement will rise once IS has been defeated militarily.

But I believe an extremist religious group will receive very little support among the population in the future.

(Although, of course, most IS combatants are and have always been foreigners.)

Færd

Whit all the humiliation and drama, that may not be.

Cerberus

The people have experienced what it's like to live under the rule of extremist religion; I don't think they want that any more.

But I don't know what will happen.

I really hope the Iraqi government will treat the Sunni people in Mosul and northern Iraq somewhat decently.

As for Assad...I do not know.

Færd

@Cerberus They have been experiencing that for alternate generations.

To bring about a new wave, something else is needed.

Cerberus

02:47

@Færd Well, has there ever been a rule as extreme as that of IS in either Syria or Iraq?

Færd

Maybe not as hostile as those, in terms of foreign policy.

Cerberus

Nor as religiously extreme.

Færd

But with regard to how they treat their own people, maybe.

Cerberus

Sure, Assad sr and jr have been terrible.

Færd

I think the kind of attitude that warrants a (more) secular government is more likely to cultivate during peace.

Cerberus

02:54

Well, I think the current warsome time has not enthused people for religious extremism...

Færd

It's not enough for a people to turn away from extremism just because some extremist fraction or faction held the power and exerted it in their disadvantage.

Cerberus

No?

At least temporarily.

Færd

They may resort to their own version of religion.

And become extremists in that.

Cerberus

But...

Færd

Just look what conditions the younger generations of Syria are growing up in.

Cerberus

02:56

Their own religion is not extremist.

Terrible conditions, without a doubt.

Færd

@Cerberus You respond to extremists with extreme measures.

Normally.

Cerberus

So...

Færd

They may become extremists themselves.

Cerberus

But extremists in what way?

Færd

I'm just saying the status quo does not portend a particularly peaceful outcome.

@Cerberus Originally, in opposing those who they rose against. And then who knows what that will lead to.

Cerberus

03:03

I'm not sure I understand that.

I wouldn't expect extremists to rise again soon.

Færd

Depends on the nature of the successors' beliefs. And how authoritarian or democratic they're going to be.

Cerberus

But I would not expect religious extremists again soon.

And what other kind is there?

Færd

(Gah, English impedes my thought so! I feel the friction in my head. Annoying.)

Sorry I'm slow.

@Cerberus Those who disagree on some terms and declare the previous ones apostates for that.

I'm just hypothesizing.

Cerberus

I would need an example.

Færd

I would have to know more about the people and their beliefs to speak more certainly.

Jason Bourne

03:15

I am so sick of the extremism in the world.

Like people can go to jail for two years for quoting a line from a book and saying something harmless about it.

Færd

I'm just saying just because some extremists were in power, doesn't mean that the successors won't be extremists in their own right.

@JasonBourne I bet some of them are sick of themselves too.

Cerberus

But I don't think there are any ideologies available there!

Extremists need an ideology.

Jason Bourne

@Færd I think they are just sick. I think they are just evil.

Cerberus

I rather think they are tired of war now and see no alternative but to weep and acquiesce for the time being.

Jason Bourne

@Cerberus Actually, they just need to be extreme and do whatever they want. There is no need for an ideology.

Cerberus

03:18

I think there is.

But it's almost bed time...

Jason Bourne

See you in your dreams then.

Færd

@JasonBourne I can totally empathize with them. I would have turned one of them in slightly different conditions. Maybe you too.

Jason Bourne

@Færd When you say that, you are about to become a superhuman.

Færd

@Cerberus Who knows if it will be they way the people want it to be.

Jason Bourne

Actually, I should not care about this. I just need to get well. Only that matters.

Færd

03:23

How democratic the next government is going to be.

Cerberus

Oh, not democratic, in Syria.

It will be either Assad or the Kurds.

Iraq seems to stabilise somewhat.

Jason Bourne

I am not so sure democracy is a good thing all the time.

Cerberus

Maybe some guerilla group will rise up in either country.

Jason Bourne

People can vote for a joker.

Færd

And who knows how many are waiting for and dreaming of vengeance, in the name of their religious school.

Cerberus

03:24

But I doubt whether it will be big: people are tired.

I wish both of you a good day!

Jason Bourne

See you in your dreams.

Færd

@Cerberus Sweat dreams!

Cerberus

Bye!

Færd

Bye.

Jason Bourne

If all religion is up to interpretation, then whatever someone does in the name of the religion is the religion itself, because religion is nothing more than that interpretation.

Færd

03:27

Yeah, if.

Jason Bourne

Politicians therefore should not say, this religion is like this, they should just day, don't do this, don't do that, and avoid commenting on religion, if politics is separate from religion.

I dislike people commenting on a religion they know nothing about.

Færd

Actually I should go as well.

Jason Bourne

See you in your dreams.

Færd

See you!

Jason Bourne

I wonder why Windows has so many updates and still doesn't work optimally.

And the new google sign in looks terrible.

Jason Bourne

06:00

Suddenly not in the mood to finish the Bond movies. I will stop at 22, before Daniel Craig takes over as Bond.

Tonepoet

07:24

@Cerberus @Færd I can not help do anything other but like the best of everything. =P Besides, there's a sort of charm to the artistic styling of Anime. The fan-art of the Touhou Project series in particular has a sort of Victorian era type elegance to it:

terdon

08:12

@Tonepoet Heh, no I hadn't. Maybe Mitch had, he started the discussion or, at least, I entered it to reply to him. But no, I had no idea it was so old, I thought it was a more recent phenomenon like the equally awful singularisation of media.

Tonepoet

08:24

@terdon To be fair, that's a little bit better. I mean I know the singular form is medium, but most people think of that as a size...

terdon

Dunno, "enter the installation media" always annoys me.

Tonepoet

@terdon I prefer "insert disc" myself.

terdon

Yep.

Although I admit I'm now inconsistent with data/datum. I think I'll only use data as a plural if discussing/writing about science.

And yet, a scant few years ago, I would have never considered using data as singular. I fear I might be guilty of that sometimes these days.

Tonepoet

08:42

@terdon I make mistakes regarding my tenets too. However, I mostly blame the people around me for being a bad influence on me, which is something I seek to amend...

Mohamed Ahmed

10:25

There's an acronym for the "online learning", could anyone help, I don't remember?

Jason Bourne

Have you tried asking google? I don't know any myself.

Mohamed Ahmed

It seems he doesn't remember too!

Jason Bourne

@terdon Would that be iamRR asking about Enter a medium or Enter media? LOL

@MohamedAhmed Well, MIT OCW stands for open courseware.

Hello @Matt! Welcome to the office!

Matt E. Эллен

hi

terdon

@JasonBourne Enter sandman.

Jason Bourne

10:32

@MattE.Эллен Let me tell you a joke.

I was with my doctor friend and someone working on the same floor talked to him. Then I said 'he is a great doctor'. Then she said 'Are you also a doctor?' Then I said 'I am only a madman'. End of joke. The joke is that she did not know I was deadly serious, LOL.

Matt E. Эллен

lol

Jason Bourne

@Færd Wait, sweat dreams? LOL

@Tonepoet I once looked up disc vs disk.

@Tonepoet Or die as the singular of dice.

@MattE.Эллен By the way, I think you would be the perfect choice for the next Bond. =)

Mohamed Ahmed

10:51

@JasonBourne Thanks for the help, they might be what I'm looking for

Færd

@Tonepoet :)

@JasonBourne Hehe! (It was a mistake.)

@Cerberus So sedentary. Feedback on my errors is always appreciated.

Cerberus

12:00

@Færd Huh, what errors?

M.A.R.

12:11

Afternoon

J doh

Hello. Where should the apostrophe(s) be in the phrase "correcting peoples essays"

Thanks

M.A.R.

@Jdoh Where do you think we should put it?

J doh

peoples'

M.A.R.

Why?

I mean, why not "people's"?

J doh

I don't know. My brain has stopped working...

I know you would say "a man's" or "men's"

terdon

12:22

@Jdoh What is the word here? Is it people? Peoples? Is it singular? Plural?

M.A.R.

Well, apply the same logic to these: "person's" "people's" "peoples'" "persons'"

J doh

it's the plural of person, but it's referring to a single group as opposed to 'peoples of the world'

terdon

Well no, the plural of person is persons. As in persons of interest. The word people is its own thing but that can also be pluralized to peoples when referring to, for example, the peoples of the Earth.

M.A.R.

I like quotation train. Let's have more ""'""'""""''"""""""""""""""""'''

@terdon It's likely the context is only about one group of people tho'

J doh

People is singular?

terdon

12:25

In this case, while the word describes a group, and is indeed used as a plural (people are strange), it isn't a plural formed by the s. So here, you'd want to say people's essays since you are correcting the essays of people, not of peoples.

You would use the other form if you were referring to many peoples (think tribes or nations), so for example The indigenous peoples' customs.

J doh

Thanks all. Was just having a brain fart!

terdon

You're welcome.

Mitch

@MohamedAhmed MOOC? (Massive Online Open Course)

but that's only one form of online learning (others may be closed, or non massive)

@terdon Sleep with one eye open

terdon

@Mitch Exeunt someone or other, I forget.

light?

Mitch

checking lyrics...

@terdon yes, pursued by a bear.

terdon

12:39

Always.

Oh, wikipedia:

> He wishes to take pity on the child, but is chased away in one of Shakespeare's most famous stage directions: "Exit, pursued by a bear." (It is not known whether Shakespeare used a real bear from the London bear-pits, or an actor in bear costume.)

I wonder, which is more likely, a real bear or an actor. Hmmm. . .

M.A.R.

He used CGI

Mitch

he was a genius like that

M.A.R.

Mitch

"We live in an illusion of understanding."

fancy way of saying... people are idiots

Mohamed Ahmed

12:56

yes, this is exactly what I'm looking for ,
Thaanks very much :)

Mitch

M.A.R.

@Mitch O.o

Whatever.

Mitch

14:04

terdon

14:22

@Mitch That looks fascinating. Shame it's so unclear.

M.A.R.

14:36

Hmm, what were the arguments in favor of keeping the [grammar] tag on ELU in your meta?

tchrist

@terdon "So unclear" in what sense? Tiny print?

Mitch

@terdon unclear? Click on it and you get the original

jinx!

and then 'alt-+' to the desired zoom

I can see my house from here

I don't necessarily agree very much with those boundaries.

M.A.R.

@tchrist That's how I understood it

@Mitch I preferred if your house was neater, if not larger

I mean, look at that mess

Mitch

frantically picks up before in-laws arrive

Tonepoet

@tchrist @mitch @M.A.R. I'm using a 1900x1200 monitor and the full size image is much larger than that. More importantly, it's a rather complex mapping with dotted lines and color coding and it would probably require some time to study the legends well enough to actually parse it.

terdon

14:45

@tchrist No, I have trouble understanding what color corresponds to what, what line is which line in the legend etc.

Mitch

@terdon Oh. Yeah. Right. It is kind of a lot.

M.A.R.

17 mins ago, by M.A.R.

Hmm, what were the arguments in favor of keeping the [grammar] tag on ELU in your meta?

Mitch

@M.A.R. who are you asking this of?

Tonepoet

@M.A.R. I don't know. I believe it is so that people can insist that the word grammar only pertains to syntax and morphology.

M.A.R.

@Mitch The whole chat in general

Mitch

14:56

Oh

@Tonepoet what else does it refer to?

@terdon hm...I didn't even realize it had a legend.

MetaEd

Mornin.

terdon

@Mitch You're also bound to be far more familiar than I with both the accents themselves and the geography. That'll make it easier for you to grok.

Mitch

it's funny that 'GenAmE' gets a small swath through Northern Illinois and southern Iowa. And that's it.

terdon

Mornin MetaEd!

M.A.R.

@Mitch People tag every damn language question with [grammar] on ELL. I remember after a lot of fights on ELL.meta, I convinced them it's a stupid tag, and I also remember a similar effort was orchestrated on ELU.meta, by Helmar probably, although much later

terdon

14:58

in Ask Ubuntu General Room, 14 hours ago, by Kaz Wolfe

"Grammar" defines use of (and the rules of) language. That includes spelling.

Tonepoet

@Mitch Everything with a systematically correct procedure about the language, down to the writing system, more or less. The Century Dictionary and Cyclopedia details the word's history quite well.

terdon

in Ask Ubuntu General Room, 14 hours ago, by Kaz Wolfe

Phonology is considered part of grammar. Spelling is a way of expressing how to say a word. Therefore, spelling is phonology is grammar.

M.A.R.

For some people, tagging with [grammar] means something like tagging with [english]

Mitch

@M.A.R. Well, they're misusing it, because it should refer to only syntax and word formation.

terdon

@Tonepoet So you would consider spelling to be part f grammar?

@Mitch s/word/sentence/, right?

I mean sentence rather than word formation.

M.A.R.

14:59

@Mitch Exactly, but it's a very commonly misused tag, at least on ELL

Tonepoet

@terdon Yes, I would consider orthography to be a part of grammar.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…