English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Tonepoet

04:03

Sigh, the research requirement is such a beginner's trap.

0

I read somewhere about replying vs answering and cannot exactly remember the key difference when used in different contexts. I just need to know the difference between using these words in different contexts such as emails, phone calls, messaging etc. How is answering to say an email is differen...

I don't particularly like how word-choice questions are treated on this website. Dictionaries don't usually do direct word comparisons, and the resources that do are scarcely considered definitive. Heck, this is one of the rare exceptions where a direct comparison is made in a dictionary, yet the answer isn't made very clear by the A.H.D's. comparison of synonyms.

Hotlick's comment even implicitly indicates indicate that his reply is also clearly not an answer, by stating that it is only a reply:

This is a reply. — Hot Licks 1 hour ago

Yet considering the provided context of the question, and the various definitions of the word Dr. Webster gives, esp. given No. 8, it isn't so obviously the case.

And that's only addressing things from the answer side of the dictionary. The reply side isn't much better, since most definitions of the word use the word answer to explain it in some manner or another. The context provided is particularly interesting since the words are used near interchangeably in it.

Mitch

13:19

@Tonepoet 1) Yeah, comparisons of close words are not covered well by dictionaries

2) "I... cannot exactly remember the key difference" - that's exactly when we'd expect the asker to do something rather than have us do all the work for them. Close with contempt!

3) Webster's 1828? Come on already, at least join the 20th century. Those definitions never touch on the true difference. MW online 21st century in the first entry says it, an answer is a reply to a question.

tchrist

@RegDwigнt That escalated quickly; see meta.

Kit Z. Fox

I saw that this morning.

I'm not sure why "term" wouldn't work.

Mitch

@tchrist Is it a problem?

@KitZ.Fox That's actually a technical term for one or more words to label a concept.

Kit Z. Fox

Right.

tchrist

@Mitch Well ok, it's better to wrangle it out on meta than in comments.

Mitch

13:29

and he definitely wants a single word for ... single word.

tchrist

word

Kit Z. Fox

Which is what the question was edited into, although the last paragraph still asks for a single word for "single word request".

Mitch

@tchrist +1

Kit Z. Fox

Nah, the edited example is a single word for "a single word or phrase".

But the question is all over the place.

tchrist

That. There were two needs-reseach votes on it already. It was long and meandering, with many comments. It seemed to be going nowhere positive.

Mitch

13:30

@KitZ.Fox the multiple edits add things in different temporal locations. Also, not coherent

Tonepoet

@Mitch Mitch, the first dictionary I referenced was the Am. Heritage 5th ed, which was updated just last year. Don't complain about a problem that doesn't even exist.

Kit Z. Fox

Well, to be fair, each piece on its own is relatively coherent. It's the post as a whole that doesn't go together.

Mitch

@Tonepoet Oh AHD? I didn't see that link.

Its first entry does answer the question directly.

The OP should have done minimal research. If they didn't find anything then we can point them in the right direction

Tonepoet

@Mitch Not exactly. "As to a question" only suggests an example of an instance where the word would be used, not a requisite, and for this it is clearly the better definition over Merriam-Webster, unless you've never answered a call in your life.

Mitch

@Tonepoet No, it's not perfect. Isn't the issue the lack of research?

Tonepoet

13:41

@Mitch Yes yes, the lack of research... I'd wish we'd treat questions with the more careful discrimination of determining just what a "commonly available resource" is. Automatic closure when no "perfect" resource exists strikes me as much too hasty.

Mitch

Not having a perfect answer in a reference is not the point of the close reason. The close reason is to prevent wasting time with frivolous questions. If the OP says 'I vaguely can't remember X' and that's it, then they haven't even tried.

M.A.R.

I'm not even convinced lack of research is a good option for closure.

Tonepoet

@Mitch That's not actually so clear. The original purpose of gen. ref. closure wasn't "haven't even tried" so much as "lazy answer with no effort to further explain put into it." and while the sitewide standard has been discontinued in 2013, there isn't really too much of an explanation regarding how our closure reason differs from the older one when you consider the qualifying sentence is the second one.

Mitch

13:57

@M.A.R. Why is that?

M.A.R.

Lack of research is a common trait among bad questions, but there's no guarantee an interesting question will demonstrate effort

Tonepoet

59

Q: Basic questions are not so basic

It has come up in other threads that we have a lot of "basic" or "lowest common denominator" questions. However, a few myths about this need to be put to rest. First, we do have a general reference close reason, and we do use it. Questions which really are as basic as they seem can be closed, an...

discussion close-reasons

Mitch

@M.A.R. Good point.

M.A.R.

So you end up closing good questions as lacking research because the policy does say so

Kit Z. Fox

If you are asking the difference between two words, the least you can do is put definitions of each word in your question.

Mitch

13:59

But lack of effort is very annoying. 'What is a good word for X?' can certainly be interesting, but the lack of just checking a thesaurus is just irresponsible.

M.A.R.

@Mitch I'm not just thinking about interesting questions

Mitch

What else then?

M.A.R.

A difficult grammar question with no effort demonstrated

Tonepoet

The syntax questions usually do get a free pass on the research requirement, as do the single word requests (provided that no rough equivalent was suggested for a thesaurus to be checked).

M.A.R.

Sure, it might not get closed if a renowned user, like AraucariaMan, asks it

@Tonepoet and there is no definitive guide on this, is there?

Tonepoet

14:03

@M.A.R. C.G.E.L. =P

M.A.R.

You end up with certain bureaucratic users cough cough Rathony cough cough causing trouble

Tonepoet

Technically it is in our list of "Commonly Available Resources" so surely it qualifies!

M.A.R.

@Tonepoet No, I mean a definitive guide on what gets a free pass on the research requirement

Tonepoet

@M.A.R. I'm not sure anymore. The Gen. Ref. flowchart in Basic Questions Are Not So Basic looks like it was meant to function that way, but Gen. Ref. isn't a closure reason anymore.

MetaEd

@M.A.R. The purpose of SE is to invite expert answers that will be useful to future visitors. There's your definitive guide right there.

M.A.R.

14:08

The thing is, a newbie closer comes along a good question with no effort provided, and VTCs anyway, because that's what the policy allows by definition

So unless three people realize it and leave the question open, people are gonna jump on the bandwagon

@MetaEd That's an impractical and vaguely defined sentence

Tonepoet

@M.A.R. Which definition is that?

MetaEd

@M.A.R. Well then let's just close SE, shall we :-)

M.A.R.

@Tonepoet Usually the close reason itself, and the fluff that appears in the close banner, can be regarded as a definition

I haven't checked ELU's close reasons, but if such a reason exists, which it does on ELL, it's kinda worrisome since it's a slippery slope

Tonepoet

@M.A.R. Upon reconsideration, I think the only thing that actually qualifies a question as off-topic is the "commonly-available resource" criterion. There's a "Please include the research" clause, but it doesn't really seem to indicate any actual requirement. Maybe if the word "Please" was removed it would read more like an imperative command...

"Please include the research you've done, or consider if your question suits our English Language Learners site better. Questions that can be answered using commonly-available references are off-topic."

MetaEd

@Tonepoet When you click to post a new question, check the guidance on the right sidebar.

M.A.R.

14:15

Wow

MetaEd

"Provide details. Share your research."

M.A.R.

Show research or go to ELL?

@MetaEd That's guidance, not the nth commandment :)

MetaEd

It's all guidance. Just like stop signs are guidance.

Tonepoet

@MetaEd To be fair, that's not entirely clear as a demand either. "We prefer questions that can be answered"...

"We prefer if you obey the traffic signs" is a strictly true statement that would never be put on a stop sign. =P

M.A.R.

I don't need proof for the fact that there are good questions that drive experts here and do not show research. In real life, research is not a prerequisite, so why should every good question include effort?

There's a counterargument that this "research" which shouldn't lead to an answer or it would've been a self-answer, is wasting reader's time when the question is clear enough

MetaEd

14:19

@M.A.R. Some SE policies exist to help foster expert community. The expectation that askers give details and do some homework before asking is partly out of respect for the experts. It's also, of course, to help prevent confusion about what the question means.

Mitch

@Tonepoet The first off-topic reason 'Please include research...' is the Gen Ref reason. Gen Ref has never left, jut the label isn't there.

M.A.R.

@MetaEd And the problem here is there can be 1-rep experts, so either there should be double standards and people would invoke Godwin's law on meta or everyone would take some flack, good and shitty posters alike

Tonepoet

@M.A.R. That vaguely makes sense if the only reason a question can be closed on E.L.L. for lack of research is "answerable by a dictionary", esp. since we can assume that people just learning English would not be adequately helped by the sort of definitive resources designed to aid English users.

@Mitch There has been some disagreement on the matter. It has been suggested that the new closure reason should be read more strictly than the old one.

M.A.R.

@Tonepoet No, in our close reasons, we have context+research as a close reason

I told them a while ago in ELL.meta that we need a policy for obvious homework, but no one listened

People are slowly starting to VTC homework-ish questions as lacking research

It would've naturally happened

SO used to have a "too localized" close reason

It was misused often, and hence removed

Tonepoet

@M.A.R. I believe you were telling me that this closure reason wasn't utilized as often as the closure text would suggest.

M.A.R.

14:30

Soon enough, someone asked on meta.SO "please give us that VTC back". [status-declined]

But it's standing at six hundred votes.

Sometimes, you just have to downvote things, not VTC them

3

Tonepoet

@M.A.R. Yeah, the closure reasons got a major overhaul in 2013 due to abuse.

M.A.R.

Not every bad question is closable

@Tonepoet The research part wasn't. We always only closed questions that lacked research with it

However, with increased volume, the site is becoming more moderation-oriented than before

So the research aspect is gaining prominence

Tonepoet

@M.A.R. How long ago was this closure reason added anyway?

Was it just always there?

M.A.R.

And you start seeing questions that do have enough context, but lack research, get closed anyway

@Tonepoet It was present when I flagged my first question for closure

So maybe after public beta launched

Tonepoet

Strange...

englishstudent

15:21

@Mitch No idea. I don't think that complex.

englishstudent

15:32

@Tonepoet Sometimes "Please" something something sentences look like orders or commands. I mean the tone, but that's just me I guess, feel free to disagree.

M.A.R.

@englishstudent That's not an order or command. It's supposed to mean like a request, because it is one

The fact that you're pressurized by polite requests doesn't make them a command :)

Tonepoet

15:53

@englishstudent You might not be mistaken in regards to actual meaning, but you're neglecting to consider why the word "please" is inserted into these sentences in the first place. It's what I'd call a passive-aggressive command, for lack of a better way of putting it. =P

englishstudent

@Tonepoet Yes, exactly. I was making a general comment, not related to the site or anything. I mean for example, um, thinks. Like someone says "Please don't talk to me" that's kind of passive aggressive and doesn't sound very nice. On the other hand, they could have just said "I'm busy man" or "I can't talk right now, busy" or something like that. That is straightforward and doesn't sound passive aggressive or jittery or rude or whatever.

Tonepoet

@englishstudent Or just "Don't talk to me."

englishstudent

Yeah.

heh

Kit Z. Fox

Those sound rude to me.

Tonepoet

The whole intent seems to be to make it sound like a request, even if it's really not, because ordering people around seems rude...

englishstudent

16:03

I mean I have noticed such uses of "Please". And in such instances that word does the opposite and makes the whole damn thing, well, kind of impolite and rude.

But like I said, that's me, you can disagree.

Yeah I know. I am not saying that word shouldn't be used.

englishstudent

16:17

@Mitch I missed that comment the other day. I thought a dominatrix's client was not a client but a "slave".

Tonepoet

16:28

I wish there was open corpora that didn't have a search limitation. I don't particularly like citing The Contemporary Corpus of American English due to the 10 search limit for unregistered members.

The B.N.C. was decent but they stopped hosting it independently.

englishstudent

Maybe you can wait a little then search again in the Corpus?

It is for a minute or two I guess.

Don't remember exactly.

Or make an account there. The free one.

Tonepoet

The limit does seem to reset after a while sometimes, but it's much longer than is reasonable to wait.

englishstudent

Yeah

And it can be annoying. I agree.

Tonepoet

It's more of a measure of months than minutes if I recall correctly, or at least weeks. Also, the only reason to use it is to verify something to somebody else, so unless I can guarantee somebody else will register the account then it's more or less pointless.

englishstudent

I mean I am registered on COCA and I have to wait a little between searches sometimes. I don't know what you mean by "months" or "weeks" here @Tonepoet

I hope we are talking about the same thing here lel.

Tonepoet

16:38

@englishstudent Sign out, use up the search limit and wait to see how long it takes to reset. =P

englishstudent

oh okay.

Mitch

@Tonepoet yeah that bugged me for a while, but then I went ahead and registered and it was no big deal.

@englishstudent you just called them a client.

X is not an X

englishstudent

haha

M.A.R.

@Mitch I disagree

X might be X in certain circumstances

englishstudent

@Mitch I meant "client" is a dummy word there, the actual meaning and word would be "slave". But you know, I am just kind of messing with you, right?

Ask some dominatrix then, she could explain.

= )

Kit Z. Fox

16:49

A slave is a type of client for a dominatrix.

Not all clients are slaves.

englishstudent

Oh okay. That's settled then. Danke.

I wasn't sure.

Kit Z. Fox

bitte

MetaEd

Dom hair club for men? "I'm not just a client, I'm also a slave."

tchrist

@Mitch I got me a quessie for ya.

> Question #A: How many words are in the list: red, blue, green.

Rocket scientists need not apply.

MetaEd

@tchrist Double Jeopardy!

tchrist

17:03

OK, for A read Q.

I have more where that came from.

M.A.R.

You can edit as a mod

tchrist

I had no idea we'd this many rocket scientists here!

Funny that "this" goes with something plural.

Cerberus

It is an adverb modifying many.

M.A.R.

Come on guys. You migrated this to ELL?!

0

Q: Use of 'of' between two nouns - and its translation into German

What troubles me is the possible misunderstanding of the preposition of between two nouns (defining a part/portion vs. just separating the nouns). Let's say a province of country X is called Bumba. In a report on that province, the English version would be: "In the southern province of Bumb...

prepositions

tchrist

Possible answers include:

α. 0
β. 1
γ. 2
δ. 3
ε. 4
ζ. 5
η. 4½
θ. what list?

@M.A.R. There were already four migrate votes on it.

terdon

17:12

@tchrist So?

That's as off topic on ELL as on ELU, surely.

tchrist

It seemed like they were confused by how noun–noun compounds worked in English versus in German.

I thought ELL might be better suited to address that.

Tonepoet

@tchrist English Language Learners doesn't handle questions regarding translation and non-English.

tchrist

What would you have suggested that I close it with in order that the migration would have been blocked?

terdon

And in any case, the question is basically about German:

> And what about the translation into German of "the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland", which should perhaps go without the "von"? In the same way as the "German capital of Berlin" is "die deutsche Hauptstadt Berlin" and of course not the "Hauptstadt von Berlin". And the United States of America? An altogether different affair because they are just part of (the) America(s)?

tchrist

So, migrate to GLU?

terdon

17:16

@tchrist I would just have closed as off topic -> other

And left a comment to the OP explaining that there is such a thing as german.se and maybe they should ask there instead.

tchrist

Send it back then, sorry.

The German part was always off-topic.

The preceding part seemed like something else.

> Question #A: How many words are in the list: red, blue, green.
Question #B: How many words are in the list: green, green, green.
Question #C: How many words are in the list: read, read, read.
Question #D: How many words are in the list: back scratcher, back-scratcher, backscratcher.
Question #E: How many words are in the list: back scratcher, backs cratcher, backscratcher.

@Mitch ♫ This one's for you, wherever you are. ♫

Tonepoet

@tchrist How 'bout 57?

M.A.R.

Hmm, do we define words to be lexemes?

tchrist

Yet another reason that single-word-requests suck.

Is the right answer.

terdon

Relevant Lawler comment:

@terdon: No. Words are not defined in terms of their origin for me. For me "words" are not defined at all. I'm a professional linguist and if I'm trying to be precise (as one should in definitions), I wouldn't use the term "word" at all. I'd talk about lexical items, semantics, etymologies, pronunciations, phonosemantics, and probly a few other terms. What I'm trying to say is that "How many words?" questions, or "Are X and Y considered single words?" questions are the wrong question. There's nothing to count. "Word" is a popular term, and does not represent real language. — John Lawler Aug 24 '13 at 16:27

Matt E. Эллен

17:40

I bet he still calls things words

MetaEd

@MattE.Эллен Sure. And I frequently refer to heat as if it were a substance.

Or a device.

terdon

@MattE.Эллен He did specify if I'm trying to be precise.

Tonepoet

18:01

Oh, if only I could press the no polysemy button... >_>

Tonepoet

18:11

@tchrist Also, to be fair, lexeme is probably a decent answer to your current subject of complaint, if it's looking for a single word for a semantic item...

Mitch

18:30

@MattE.Эллен I bet margarine wouldn't melt in his mouth

Matt E. Эллен

@terdon well, ok :D

Mitch

because it is highly saturated, and has a much higher melting point than butter

Matt E. Эллен

typical margarine

tch

Mitch

Screw it, I'm going to finish this bag of "Flamin' Hot" crunchy Cheetos

om nom nom

more om nom nom'ing

@tchrist What? I don't get it. It's not three?

Holy crap, Bacon flamin hot cheetos! That's what they oughta do!

starts writing congressman

wipes orange dust off fingers

goes back to typing

wipes orange dust off keyboard

tchrist

19:11

@Mitch No, it is three.

The others are less clear.

Tonepoet

19:51

Oh how nice! I have the 1987 C.E.O.E.D. volume III now, to supplement the other two and it came with the slipcover, so that makes all but 5,000 words from the O.E.D. 2nd Ed. in print.

Mitch

A - 3
B - 3 tokens or instances, 1 word or type or concept
C - same (it's typed and no context so I can't hear you pronounce them or what you meant)
D - 5 words/tokens (the hyphen depends), 3 concepts
E - 5 words/tokens, 3 concepts, that middle one might be autocorrected

@Tonepoet I just created a new word so it is now out of date.

Tonepoet

@Mitch Convince a pro. Scrabble Player that it's valid and we'll talk. =P

Either that, or add it to Wiktionary. ;-)

Mitch

Most play with a dictionary (a physical one) as a standard (doesn't matter which one, just an external judge for game play). I prefer no dictionary, and there's the secondary game of convincing others about your (possibly made-up new) word. It's like playing poker at the same time

@Tonepoet haha. wiktionary is crap.

If I find a word in wiktionary, I start to doubt that it really is one.

Tonepoet

There are reasons I chose these standards. =)

tchrist

20:09

@Mitch One is a the color green, one is a putting green, one is member of some green party.

No quarks.

Or one is a noun, one an adjective, and one a verb.

Tonepoet

@tchrist Which green is a verb?

tchrist

The greening of the desert.

The monsoons green the desert with remarkable swiftness.

See the examples at en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/green

Tonepoet

@tchrist You hadn't mentioned that sense of the word, so I figured you meant that the putting green, the color green or the green party member was a verb.

tchrist

haha

nooooo

I was giving two different trifectas.

Tonepoet

@tchrist Also, how crude! =P

tchrist

20:20

> Verde que te quiero verde.
Verde viento. Verdes ramas.
El barco sobre la mar.
Y el caballo en la montaña.

That's crude.

Tonepoet

@tchrist Sigh, Portuguese should probably be bumped up the prioritized list of languages I'll never get around to learning =P. It's not just you, but Vampire Princess and also Mythological of the Wesnoth community who speak it too.

tchrist

@Tonepoet That's not Portuguese.

poets.org/poetsorg/poem/romance-sonambulo

Tonepoet

@tchrist If I wasn't a filthy monolinguist I might've stood a chance of noticing that, but it's all Greek to me.

Tonepoet

20:37

@tchrist Or maybe I should've said It's all Green to me. Meh, what a lost opportunity. I suppose I can salvage it though but I don't know whether to reference Kermit or the Orion dancing girl...

SmokeDetector

22:34

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Pattern-matching website in answer: What is the difference between "solidus" and "slash"? by AidanTES on english.SE

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…