English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

tchrist

00:25

Those probably won't work.

Færd

01:41

@Cerberus Thanks a separate bunch for each example.

My examlpe was more recent than all of those by a long shot (1927). Gives me an idea of Woolf's language style.

Cerberus

Right, although that doesn't necessarily mean that it was already obsolete by that time.

Færd

Yeah.

Cerberus

Perhaps the OED doesn't always search for new quotations for each sub-sense at every new edition.

Færd

Hmm. You'd know better about that.

Cerberus

I really don't.

Færd

01:46

Still.

@englishstudent Doesn't that come down to whether phoning and calling are the same?

So maybe those expressions are equally erroneous.

> They won't give way to my demands until I keep calling/phoning them.

Cerberus

It's odd to speak of keeping up doing something when you haven't even started doing it yet (indicated by until).

Færd

I was thinking it was odd because the result is supposed to ensue mere keeping doing something, not having done it for a while.

As for your point:

> I call them once a month, but they won't answer me until I keep calling them everyday.

Still iffy, eh? Unless would work better, I guess.

Cerberus

@Færd Better, but I'd still not find it acceptable. I would say something like start instead of keep for it to work.

With unless, your example would work.

Færd

@Cerberus Yeah. Maybe that's why.

Cerberus

02:54

Si!

SmokeDetector

06:52

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Email in answer: When was "antimatter" first used? by ahmad ismail on english.SE

Tonepoet

07:54

@tchrist Am I the only one bothered by how close the block quotations are to the following paragraph? I mean not only is there so little space, but it seems as if there is more space between the prior paragraph and the block quotation, which makes it look somewhat off-center to me. I use line breaks as a partial workaround since I think it looks better but it's more white space than necessary.

M.A.R.

@Tonepoet Huh, if only looking up related feature requests on meta.SE was easy

I'm too lazy to do it

=]

Tonepoet

@M.A.R. Actually, that was just me dropping my keyboard. XD

M.A.R.

Actually, that was just me picking up your keyboard. o.o

It was strangely apt though, haha

Tonepoet

@M.A.R. Yes, it was.

M.A.R.

@Mitch yah

SmokeDetector

08:25

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer: When was "antimatter" first used? by ahmad ismail on english.SE

Færd

09:47

@Mitch Actually I was detached from my Iranian identity when I made those comments. I was thinking particularly of Yemen at the time, and Saudi, and generally of the Middle East, or vaguely the world: the kind of world policy that justifies you making a police state out of the whole world only because you have the power to do that, even if it's done in the name of justice and self-righteous exertion of power over those who you convince your tax-payers that are evil and unjust.

I know Obama didn't flagrantly gloat about these and adopted a much softer foreign discourse in comparison to eg GWB, but in my personal view he was just another cop acting good among a bunch acting alternately good and bad.

Færd

09:58

However, I must say I appreciate the attitude of respect even from the most tyrannical of rulers, but only if it's paid sincerely and consistently.

englishstudent

11:00

@Færd Yes I was only looking for the difference between "calling" and "phoning" there. I don't think they are erroneous though. Even your example "They won't give way to my demands until I keep calling/phoning them." sounds good to me.

@Cerberus I think those phrases or expressions (until I keep calling/phoning them) are fine. I was just unsure about "call" or "phone" there. But "It's odd to speak of keeping up doing something when you haven't even started doing it yet" that's not the case, let me give you an example:

Like "They don't make xyz work until i ring them over and over again". See what I mean? It is not something that hasn't started yet, it is something that happens and is a habit.

Well I was trying to use that expression in a lighthearted way, like "My internet doesn't always work and they don't make it work until I keep calling them (like unless I harass them with phone calls they don't make it work.) So I thought I'd ask if it was correct.

My sentence may have other grammar issues but until is not the problem there, or at least I am not convinced that it is incorrect.

@Færd I checked "until I keep calling them" with my friends (native speakers of English in other places) and they say it is fine. But they say "calling" looks better than "phoning" at least in AmE.

RaisingAgent

11:37

How can I say something is frequently being used as a synonym of X?

"in the past X has often been made synonym of Y" ? sounds a bit strange

Færd

11:49

@englishstudent To me, it's at least infelicitous because until indicates continuation up to a specific point in time, while keep doing something is itself an indefinite continuation and not a specific point.

However, I think the fact that unless can work there instead of until shows that you can speak of keeping doing something when you haven't even started it.

@englishstudent That kind of argument doesn't hold water unless you make it into a sound statistical statement that shows numerous enough native speakers do use the construction or at least don't object to it.

You can always find disagreeing individuals.

And if your question is about call vs phone in a certain dialect, then a good dictionary or a large enough corpus would be your best bet.

RaisingAgent

@Færd Google says call: Google Trends

englishstudent

12:42

@Færd Not to me, it isn't. I mean it is not "infelicitous". We both have different opinions here it seems. I have seen numerous times "until" used with "keep". Like "The pain won't go away until I keep (doing xyz)"

@Færd I don't have statistics, sorry.

@Færd Yes but pasting my question here proved beneficial because we got to discuss other things as well.

Like the intricacies of my sentence in question.

Færd

13:06

@RaisingAgent Yeah. One would expect that. This is even more decisive: books.google.com/ngrams/… .

@englishstudent You failed to notice that I tried to show you that it wasn't just a matter of opinion.

And I seriously doubt that one would come across that construction so often: there are only 4 results for "until * KEEP *ing" in COCA, a 500-million-word corpus (the '*'s are wild cards). You might even find a couple of them false positives if you care to investigate further.

@englishstudent The quality of the response to a question doesn't justify asking the question.

Mind you, I'm not saying you shouldn't've asked it.

englishstudent

@Færd Um you mean my response was inappropriate?

Færd

Not at all.

englishstudent

oh okay. = )

@Færd Ok. Right. So you say I "failed" to notice. Failed how? Your statement "until indicates continuation up to a specific point in time, while keep doing something is itself an indefinite continuation and not a specific point." is how you are looking at things (the sentences) here, so your opinion, and I wouldn't interpret "until" and "keep" that way.

And COCA doesn't have everything under the sun when it comes to sentences.

Færd

13:23

> until
PREPOSITION & CONJUNCTION

Up to (the point in time or the event mentioned)

en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/until

Keeping doing something is not a point nor an event.

Is Google Books good enough for you?

"until I keep *"

"until you keep *"

terdon

@englishstudent you can't say until I keep calling them, it doesn't make any sense. I really doubt any native speaker could have told you that specific formulation is OK. What would it even mean?

Færd

@RaisingAgent Maybe X was a common synonym for Y? Or X was commonly used as a synonym for Y?

englishstudent

@terdon Howdy terdon. Well, yeah someone (a native speaker, actually two) told me that. But I am ready to change my stance because, well, I believe you. But why does it look nonsense to you? I mean can't I make a sentence like this:

This is me being lighthearted in this sentence btw: "My internet doesn't always work and they don't make it work until I keep calling them (like unless I harass them with phone calls they don't make it work.)"

It is a habit. Not something about the future.

So you can call it a present habit if you want.

Anyway, how would you say the same thing terdon?

Mitch

13:38

@Færd Oh. Sure, I get it. The US has a ... authoritarian reputation towards many middle eastern countries which is not ... appreciated there.

englishstudent

@Færd Thanks for the input by the way. Much appreciated.

Mitch

@Færd I get that too. Outside the US, the leader is the representative of the country and the country and the leader are sometimes hard to distinguish. And inside, it's hard to tell how two leaders can be considered a like because all you see is differences. Also, in or out, all you hear are complaints and sometimes the weight of what is being complained about is not considered (that is relevant weight is not always considered)

eg People used to say that Obama (or his administrators) were prone to secrecy, not letting information out. But in comparison to before and after, they were much more open/transparent about their inner workings.

terdon

@englishstudent They don't fix it until I've called them multiple times or something like that. Until I keep doing something doesn't make much sense.

You could say unless I keep calling for example, but not until.

Mitch

@Færd That pattern/strategy may apply but I don't think all the elements of a police interrogation carry over exactly to international relations.

englishstudent

@terdon oh okay. Thanks a lot.

@Cerberus You were right. Ignore my ping above. I agree with you guys now.

It is just that when I believe something to be correct, it is often difficult for me to change my position. =) But when many people say the same thing it sinks in. =)

So woot!

Mitch

14:07

@Færd Rulers, as individuals, have personalities. and the country itself may have a coherent personality too but they're not necessarily the same.

englishstudent

@Mitch Mitch can you drink coffee in hot weather? Like in a weather of 30-ish Centigrades and no AC. Just curious.

Cerberus

14:30

@Mitch Obama did prosecute more whistleblowers under the espionage act than the ten presidents before him, or so I read...

@englishstudent It's always good to have a discussion about such things!

Mitch

@englishstudent 1) I don't drink coffee often so I don't have much opportunity to have coffee when it's that hot. 2) as to tea though, yeah I'll have hot tea when it's 30 outside...oh, but no AC? Hm... probably not. boiling water is the main problem heating the house more than necessary on a hot day (even with AC). If somebody handed me hot tea outside in 30 degrees... I don't think I'd push it away. But I'd probably prefer iced tea then.

Also, re Easter, for me, I don't care. It's a mark of spring but I don't 'do' any of the things. For kids it's a lot of fun (I remember easter egg hunts as a kid myself, and also for my kids when they were young; did I tell you about the year long candy coverage strategy?)

englishstudent

@Cerberus Yep =) Aren't we awesome? :)

@Mitch Yeah I see your point.

Mitch

Also, I was brought up Protestant, I think Easter is a bigger deal in Catholicism. Meaning I think that Catholics tend to do a whole bunch of things...

@englishstudent What about you?

I can't remember, where are you from? Northern or southern India? or somewhere else?

englishstudent

@Mitch Well I am like you in that respect. I rarely drink coffee, like only in winters but to keep myself awake or like in the morning for concentration I drink tea. Black tea with milk. I love it. But not when it is crazy hot or in a place where I have no fan etc. I don't have AC in my room though, but I have a good ceiling fan, and a few windows so I am good.

Mitch

re easter...catholics tend to do a whole bunch of things around Easter: Mardi Gras, Ash Wednesday and Lent, Palm Sunday and the Holy week with Good Friday and Easter Sunday. All Protestants have are Easter egg hunts and brunch. Also maybe wearing a fancy hat if you're in a movie.

englishstudent

14:43

@Mitch Secret, sir. Secret. :)

Mitch

@englishstudent haha. The storm troopers have already been dispatched to your residence based on that response and calculating your latitude longitude from the reflection in your eyes of the shadows on the ground and your IP address and time stamp.

Because of relativistic effects from the GPS satellites, they me off a couple meters and crash through another window, but I think the effect will be the same.

englishstudent

haha

Ah, well, I better contact my network of spies around the world who are highly trained individuals in the art of war, and have them pick me up from my current spot.

Mitch

stay away from windows

cover your eyes

englishstudent

=)

Mitch

3..2..1..

englishstudent

14:47

Flash Bangs

Mitch

I'll give you a moment.

OK that should be enough

englishstudent

Moves away from the keyboard and takes a long jump to one of the troopers, dismantles his equipment and fires back.

Gets away safely

:D

Mitch

Thank goodness. Those guys can get carried away. They really love their job

englishstudent

hah!

This was fun.

Mitch

Yeah. another fun one is to take the point of view of the stormtrooper.

Wake up in the morning. Have breakfast. go to the office. alarm goes off and you rush to put on your bullet proof vest and riot gear. call home to say you'll be late at work again. jump onto helicopter

... rappel out the side of the helicopter with guns ablazing

call in a clean up crew. write a report. talk to the boss about a coworker who forgets to make more coffee when he finishes the pot.

has a donut. shoots person in face. writes another report.

somebody's gotta do it.

I wonder if they have a good retirement plan?

M.A.R.

15:01

@Mitch Such futuristic novels usually involve throwing them into a pit of lava or something

Mitch

No cleanup needed.

Lava is pretty expensive to maintain, or if natural, travel expenses to get there can be onerous for the company.

M.A.R.

15:18

@Mitch Let them die and rot at home?

Run a galactic McDonald?

Cerberus

@Mitch Oh, you think so?

You just heat up stone.

Stone isn't expensive.

devth

16:07

I keep trying to think of a word that means timely / at the most efficient or opportune time, and "prescient" keeps coming to mind but that's not quite right. Can anyone think of a better word?

Cerberus

@devth Hmm sometimes it helps to make an example sentence with a blank.

Then people will propose words, and you will reject them, based on x, which will improve your understanding of your subconscious criteria.

devth

Trying to capture a sentence that conveys: it's much more efficient to document details at the time when they're most fresh or as they come up than at the end of the week.

Cerberus

And timely is no good?

devth

maybe it's fine but for some reason "prescient" keeps popping into my mind. happened several times in the last week and I'm trying to figure out if there's another word like it

"Individuals need to expose their status along the way, and do it in the most precise, timely, asynchronous method possible."

arguing for taking notes as you go rather than trying to remember everything you did at the end of the week

Cerberus

I understand and applaud the thought.

But I'm not sure I understand "status" and "asynchronous" in that sentence.

devth

16:15

I probably just had a slightly inaccurate understanding of what "prescient" means :)

Cerberus

And the word you're looking for is supposed to replace "timely"?

Heh.

devth

right

Cerberus

Pre = before; scient = knowing.

devth

status: on a project, communicating to a team

Cerberus

OK.

devth

16:16

asynchronous: not requiring a meeting

Cerberus

Ah.

And simply "as soon as possible after it has changed" is no good?

"Without delay"?

devth

it's continuously changing. technical project

Cerberus

"Maintain their status continuously"?

Jinx!

devth

oh, i think i was trying to capture something like important details

ha, now I have another word I can't think of

the most pertinent

Cerberus

Keep their status up to date and include all pertinent data?

devth

16:20

yeah, it works

just racking my brain for that word now

Cerberus

A word for "most pertinent"?

Essential?

devth

yeah. the essence of

distilled

Cerberus

Relevant?

devth

starts with S ends with "ent"?

haha. sorry not much to go on

Cerberus

Salient?

devth

16:23

yes!

haha. thanks

Cerberus

Although I feel that the sense "important", now often seen, is perhaps less correct than its traditional sense "remarkable".

terdon

@devth Ummm. I don't think that word means what you think it means.

devth

"most noticeable or important"

among other uses

terdon

Actually, I'm pretty sure you want to say synchronous not asynchronous since the latter means exactly the opposite of what you seem to want.

devth

async: decoupled from the schedules of other team members. it describes how the status is shared, not recorded.

maybe that's not clear

terdon

16:33

And could you have been thinking of precipitous instead of prescient? That means "to bring about especially abruptly" but it wouldn't really fit.

devth

i don't think so. i think i want prescient to mean something it doesn't

terdon

@devth Not to me and not according to any dictionary definition I'm aware of. Maybe in marketing- or HR-speak?

devth

@terdon referring to asynchronous?

Cerberus

@devth I would use it for noticeable but not for important.

terdon

Asynchronous basically means "not at the same time" and you seem to be describing the opposite: that notes should be taken at the same time as whatever it is you are doing.

@devth Yes. If you hover over the little arrow to the left of that message, it should point you to what I was replying to.

Cerberus

16:35

WARNING: PEDANTS HAVE BEEN DETECTED IN THIS ROOM

devth

@terdon right, I'm using asynchronous to describe how the status notes should be shared to the team. not how they are taken.

terdon

@Cerberus Takes one to know one, bub :P

devth

haha

Cerberus

Indeed.

devth

i don't mind pedantry in this discussion.

Cerberus

16:35

I was being pedantic about "salient", and then you came in...

devth

> Today, salient is usually used to describe things that are physically prominent (such as a salient nose) or that stand out figuratively (such as the salient features of a painting).

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/salient

Cerberus

Hence the plural -s, if I may be so pedantic...

@devth That's how I would use it.

devth

I see the word "salient" used in technical discussions fairly often.

Cerberus

Not merely for "important".

@devth Yes, so do I, unfortunately...

It's subtle.

devth

"salient points" - the essence of, the tldr

is that wrong?

Cerberus

16:37

I would not use the word that way.

But see warning above.

devth

Ok, point taken. Better alternative?

terdon

Don't listen to him, he writes encyclopedia with an æ.

Cerberus

Essential, most important, relevant...?

devth

Sure. Those are a little boring :)

terdon

Salient is OK, it just depends on the context. Might come across as pretentious.

Cerberus

16:38

Ah, see, and that's what we pedants Nazi against: using words just because they seem fancier, not because they're actually necessary.

devth

I like seeing words that stick out and also precisely convey something. Helps especially in technical writing which tends to be very bland.

Cerberus

I agree about precisely conveying something.

devth

If everything is essential nothing is essential

maybe s/essential/important ?

Cerberus

Inflation can be a problem.

terdon

Don't confuse "stick out" with "precise". In fact, those words that stick out are usually not precise or, at least, are likely not to be precisely understood by your audience.

Cerberus

16:40

But I think essential or (most) important should work?

devth

yes

terdon

I think Cerb's suggestion of pertinent is pretty good. That carries the meaning of important and most relevant in one neat little package.

Cerberus

@terdon ...and are likely to be used incorrectly, even if only slightly so.

terdon

Yep

Cerberus

Actually, Dev came up with pertinent himself.

Or herself.

terdon

16:41

Even better :)

Cerberus

Indeed.

devth

I can't think of an example at the moment but there have been times when reading even something as common as a WSJ article where there's an unfamiliar word, which I then look up, and appreciate how apropos it was

Cerberus

Certainly, that is good.

devth

I think at one point apropos was one of those word :)

Cerberus

Heh.

terdon

16:42

When it is apropos, that is indeed a pleasure. However, only too often authors use words they don't understand very well or whose nuances are lost on them in a misguided effort to appear erudite. And that's annoying.

devth

It's so easy to look words up now. I'm almost always reading on a computer/phone/tablet

Cerberus

But you have to be sure you're familiar enough with the word to use it properly and only where it's necessary.

devth

sure

Cerberus

Yes, a good e-book reader will also have a function where you can tap on the word to look it up.

terdon

Jan 7 at 18:20, by terdon

@Abcd of course these things are subjective. The general rule is, basically, don't say "he actuated the opening mechanism and gained entry to the chamber" when you could instead write "he opened the door and stepped into the room".

Cerberus

16:43

And on Android you can look up any word from any app, with the right software.

@terdon Good example.

devth

I definitely subscribe to minimalism in writing

Cerberus

Style books have since the dawn of time argued against the use of unnecessarily fancy language: simple language is better.

terdon

So, just use the fancy word if the fancy word is better, more precise, gets your meaning across without ambiguity and not because you feel it sounds better.

Cerberus

I often chuckle at people who abuse ostensibly.

devth

I want to use interesting words that don't appear fancy

Cerberus

16:45

When they mean simply apparently.

terdon

@Cerberus Ouch

Cerberus

@devth Then you should make sure readers will feel that the use of this less simple word is necessary. You may need some kind of build-up and hide it, too...

@terdon nods

devth

C.S. Lewis seems to write very plainly, except he uses a lot of Latin and French phrases.

other authors that come to mind as good examples of plain yet elegant writing?

Cerberus

Fowler is my hero.

devth

as in Martin Fowler of ThoughtWorks?

Karen Joy Fowler?

Cerberus

16:49

Oh, no, Fowler's style book Modern English Usage.

As to literature, how about Orwell?

terdon

@Cerberus YESHHH!

Cerberus

Yay!

terdon

Ah, no, never mind. I was thinking of Fowles.

I was expecting literature, not opinionated pedantry of the highest calibre :P

Cerberus

Ow, should I read him?

Hehe.

devth

I'll have to check that out

I'm not a huge English enthusiast but I am trying to improve

terdon

16:50

Absolutely! John Fowles is one of the greatest writers of the 20th century.

Cerberus

As to literature, I think Orwell's English (and his opinions on the language) are also great.

terdon

@devth Huh? You're a native English speaker aren't you?

Cerberus

Which book of his would you recommend?

devth

Yes, but what I actually nerd out on is tech

terdon

You certainly come across as one.

@devth Ah, OK. I just thought you meant your English isn't that good.

devth

16:51

So I write technical blog posts, documentation ...

I meant I'm maybe not the target audience for "Fowler's Modern English Usage" :)

Cerberus

It looks good to me...

terdon

@Cerberus The French Lieutenant's Woman. I'd have said The Magus but that should be read when you're younger.

Cerberus

OK.

I'll put it on my mental list...

terdon

@devth That's what you think! If anything, precise clear language is more important in tech specs than anywhere else.

devth

I don't disagree

Cerberus

16:52

Indeed.

terdon

John Fowles

John Robert Fowles (/faʊlz/; 31 March 1926 – 5 November 2005) was an English novelist of international stature, critically positioned between modernism and postmodernism. His work reflects the influence of Jean-Paul Sartre and Albert Camus, among others. After leaving Oxford University, Fowles taught English at a school on the Greek island of Spetses, a sojourn that inspired The Magus, an instant best-seller that was directly in tune with 1960s "hippie" anarchism and experimental philosophy. This was followed by The French Lieutenant's Woman (1969), a Victorian-era romance with a postmodern twist...

@devth have you ever read any Perl documentation, for example?

devth

Yes, many years ago

Cerberus

But I do feel that Dev will be more precise and thoughtful than the large majority of technical writers...

devth

(15ish)

terdon

Well, those tend to be excellent examples of clear, precise and well crafted English. Much of it was written by one of the regulars here, actually.

Cerberus

16:53

If he's spending so much time on finding just the right word.

devth

Oh, interesting

terdon

@Cerberus True

devth

I have the problem where I know of a good word but often can't recall it

which is how I ended up here

terdon

You and everyone else.

It's much easier to find the word you're looking for than the one I can't remember.

devth

Glad I'm not the only one

terdon

16:55

I keep remembering the word in one language when I'm trying to speak another. That's also annoying.

devth

At least then you can use Google Translate or similar

terdon

Sometimes. It is rarely good enough though. Especially when you're looking for a specific nuance.

Mitch

@Cerberus But the heating container would be prohibitively expensive. Like lasers. YOu could just use a much smaller and less power hungry laser to dispatch the errant employee. Lava just seems like a lot of trouble. What if the warmer goes out? It'll take at least a few hours to get it back up to red hot lave stage.

Cerberus

@Mitch Oh, you could just use a large hole in the ground for a container?

Digging is cheap.

If you let your children do it or buy a couple of slaves or whatever.

M.A.R.

Is it?

Cerberus

16:59

Or dogs.

M.A.R.

So many ATPs wasted

Cerberus

The fuel that cells use?

In this day and age, I think many of us could stand to use up a couple more...

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…