English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Robusto

02:49

Now this:

It's funny because it's true.

skull petrol

04:08

Literally.

Kit Z. Fox

12:49

He looks remarkably like Henry Rollins.

skill patrol

13:30

minus the football neck

I've never seen veins pop out on the neck quiet like that!

terdon

13:50

@skillpatrol Constipation's a bitch.

Cerberus

Unrelated.

But it shows how people happily vote for politicians who will do the opposite of what they want.

Which continues to surprise me.

skill patrol

Political polls mean nothing to me after Trump's victory.

terdon

Why? They're just alternative facts, after all.

skill patrol

True dat.

Cerberus

They're necessarily not entirely reliable.

And changeable.

But they're not entirely worthless either.

Kit Z. Fox

14:06

Polls are accurate enough. They don't tell you how the election is likely to go if the election isn't based on voting.

Tonepoet

@Cerberus Well Trump lost the popular vote, and his constituents almost certainly voted for him on the basis of immigration policy. That has been a very important issue in U.S. politics for a good long while now. I was researching for an answer and came across Respect for the Law and Economic Fairness: Illegal Immigration Prevention by Frank Luntz which gives an interesting overview of the situation.

Cerberus

@Tonepoet Yes, the bundling of unrelated issues is a big part of it.

Which is all the much easier when, realistically, you have only 2 people/parties to choose between as a voter.

Mitch

@Cerberus They mean things but not always what you expect

@Cerberus with more parties, maybe the issues for each party are simpler?

Cerberus

nods noncommittally

Mitch

or with two parties more likely that you have mixed feelings about each candidate (not all issues are so well correlated).

Cerberus

14:13

@Mitch I'm not entirely sure what you mean here?

Mitch

@Cerberus Today is 'Say little with a lot ' day.

@Cerberus another example.

Or I haven't said enough.

Cerberus

@Mitch Yes, exactly.

If you want more privacy but also more protectionism, there is no party for you.

Mitch

@Cerberus OK. if there are lots of parties (one candidate per party), the existence of lots of parties means that there are enough differences on issues.

@Cerberus the paranoid party

Or the 'party of jerks who talk like they're on my side'

Cerberus

@Mitch Yes, exactly.

@Mitch For example.

Mitch

@Cerberus I'm going to write a paper to math this all up.

and then draw long perspective conclusions from it.

Cerberus

14:17

Or you could have a party that wants privacy, higher taxes for the rich, and free immigration.

Or any combination of positions on various issues.

Mitch

That will end up with us all being force fed soylent in hay strewn stalls cleaned out with firehoses.

Cerberus

But is it likely that such a party will win an absolute majority?

Mitch

@Cerberus You can make a rational case for every side of an issue.

Cerberus

The more viable parties you have, the smaller each party will be.

@Mitch I'm not entirely sure I agree with that, but let's assume it is true.

Mitch

Except for allowing in Norwegians. Am I right!

Cerberus

14:19

Yes, they rob your cloisters and your women.

Mitch

@Cerberus A rational case may not in the end be supportable, but it can be convincing.

Cerberus

I don't know.

Mitch

how do you know if you know if your own arguments are good?

self-doubts

Cerberus

@Mitch How convincing is it if you need to assume that e.g. the Christian god exists and wants exactly the things that a particular church says he does?

skill patrol

instinct?

Mitch

14:20

uses convincing logic that arguments aren't trustworthy

sees a loophole there

takes a sip of tea mixed with coffee

Really. And it's not as abhorrent as it sounds

only mildly abhorrent.

Matt E. Эллен

@Cerberus violence can be convincing...

Tonepoet

Coughpersuasivecough

Cerberus

@MattE.Эллен Heh.

Mitch

tea made from one of those multi tea/coffee makers

@Cerberus cues Viking music

Cerberus

Good.

Mitch

14:22

@Cerberus Those arguments have been convincing people for ever

Cerberus

@Mitch But rationally?

> You can make a rational case for every side of an issue.

Mitch

@Cerberus Valhalla, I am coming!

Matt E. Эллен

if you agree that rationality isn't the same as logic

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен maybe I was going that way

there's computer logic and then there's meat bag logic

reads news

pleasantly surprised that it's not all falling apart before our eyes

When you have coffee-mixed-with-tea and you are aware of it, it's really not that bad.

If you were not aware of it, that's a throwing-across-the-room offense.

Needs milk

Matt E. Эллен

sounds worse than stewed tea

Mitch

14:28

I hesitate to ask..

what is stewed tea?

skill patrol

^

define: stewed tea

Mitch

is that like tea that instead of being steeped you actual cook the tea?

skill patrol

like boil it a lot?

terdon

@MattE.Эллен is reeling from culture shock.

Matt E. Эллен

it's where you leave the leaves in the water for too long

skill patrol

14:34

like brewed for too long?

Kit Z. Fox

oversteeped?

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен THat sounds like... strong tea?

Or just tea

Cerberus

You need to add milk anyway.

Mitch

tea not for babies

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch clearly your tongue has been marred by too much coffee.

Mitch

14:37

I can't argue against that.

wait... yes I can.

Matt E. Эллен

stewed tea tastes like the water from over-cooked cabbage mixed with earwax

skill patrol

ew

Kit Z. Fox

do you drink water from over-cooked cabbage mixed with earwax often?

Mitch

1- I could argue against it frivolously
2- I could use data, like the fact (to be substantiated with full life time video) that I only drink coffee at most 1 time a week and tea at least three times a day (or actually constantly)
3- I could just yell

Matt E. Эллен

@KitZ.Fox when the mood takes me

Mitch

14:38

@KitZ.Fox Not often

Wait... whose earwax?

Matt E. Эллен

an ageing coal miner's

Mitch

ah... so a smoky finish

skill patrol

Hang on I need a vocabulary lesson here: brewing, stewing, and steeping?

Mitch

I prefer a pastry chef's

englishstudent

@MattE.Эллен hi. I have an English related question. Is the usage of "one" old? Because I still use it and some say it is old style. For example, "One shouldn't do this", "What can one do in such a situation". People say to use "you" there. But that's not a hard and fast rule right?

Mitch

14:40

@skillpatrol yes. those are all vocabulary items. Next question?

skill patrol

:(

englishstudent

I mean I like to use one in such sentences. I'm used to it. But correct me if I am wrong.

Mitch

@englishstudent tiny bit formal

englishstudent

@Mitch ok thanks.

Mitch

I wouldn't say old-fashioned, unless it's only old people who are formal, which is not a bad assumption

Matt E. Эллен

14:42

@englishstudent it's not a rule. It is quite formal, I'd say. Very few people use one except to make fun of posh people

Mitch

@englishstudent maybe passive is better, because 'you' though much more common, might be taken too personally (and that's why you think 'one' is better?

englishstudent

@MattE.Эллен I see. Thanks very much.

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен One shouldn't say that. Posh people can't help it.

englishstudent

@Mitch A native speaker somewhere told me that, I didn't believe them but didn't want to debate the issue either because they were helping me anyway. So I thought I'd ask people here. Thanks! :)

Matt E. Эллен

One can do as one pleases. One wouldn't like to comment, would one.

Mitch

14:45

@englishstudent That's the case for everything on ELU.

@MattE.Эллен That can't be passivized.

englishstudent

@Mitch Yes exactly, that's why. Sorry I missed that message earlier.

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch good

englishstudent

@Mitch Well English you looks confusing to me at times. Like people say something something "you" and I'm like "You mean me?" so yeah confusing.

Then they are like "I mean generic you" etc.

skill patrol

It takes getting used to.

Mitch

@englishstudent Language isn't perfect

well english.

Russian on the other hand is simply complicated

Yeah I said that

englishstudent

14:51

Are you learning Russian too?

By too I mean with other languages.

Mitch

ha. no.

englishstudent

Perhaps.

oh hah.

Well you can find someone on Italki, a Russain native speaker I mean, if you are interested.

Mitch

yeah.

the paid ones are 'limited' (they still have a lot)

but the convo ones, there's quite a bit more. There are a number of people who do Nahuatl.

Which is very useful if you are doing prayer services before an Aztec sacrifice

englishstudent

hah.

Mitch

Or buying produce at a grocery store in San Luis Potosi

englishstudent

15:03

@Mitch Well I have been voice chatting for quite some time now and I biggest drawback I have noticed is if you aren't prepared with the questions beforehand then the awkward silence can kill you (generic 'you' I mean =). You can't just mute your microphone and call it a day. So there is that. But it is fun. :p

I mean in texting it is easy to shoot the shit with folks. At least for me.

It depends on the chatting partner too, mine is fun, but not everyone is.

SBM

15:15

Um?

skill patrol

Welcome :-)

Mitch

15:33

@englishstudent right. subject prep. also like I mentioned before, maybe it is too soon even for elementary conversation for me

@englishstudent yes, chat is easier to let things go, or take time to edit a message, which is hard to do in a one-on-one spoken conversation.

There needs to be an online self-teaching method that takes you the next step past elementary. Duolingo, Rosetta, etc are just for elementary grammar, and don't help you get vocab or ease, the next level.

Duolingo has a conversational step, but I didn't find the UX to be compelling (my euphemistic way of saying I didn't like it but I'm not sure if it's my fault)

englishstudent

@Mitch Yes I know. That's understandable. Use self teaching books for different languages maybe then? You are right, there is a 'step' between Duolingo and conversing with someone and you are looking for that I think.

For me interaction is very important because I can write 1000 words essay easily, more easily then talking with someone in English, so I'm trying to improve myself in that area. Even texting here helps a lot to be honest.

Also I love to write.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…