English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

terdon

18:02

@Cerberus Yeah. I was fascinated by that when I first realized I did it.

Cerberus

It is a bit like laughing.

Most of the time, it is semi-conscious, social—not the pure expression of a deep emotion.

And sometimes we even mimick the way another person laughs or speaks.

Færd

English expletives pop out of my mouth all the time. And that's no proof of bilingualism or even fluency in English.

terdon

@Færd No, but if I were to come up behind you and startle you, what language would you exclaim in?

Færd

I would very naturally say Fuck!.

I was just never exposed to so much swearing before I started learning English.

terdon

Although pain is a better example. Although strange, it is absolutely true that different languages have different exclamations for pain. So English has ouch, Spanish has ay, Greek has ay/aou and French has aieue or however that's spelled.

And I know that if I hurt myself while thinking in English, I'll yell ouch but if thinking in Greek, it'll be ay or aou.

Since there is nothing natural about that final ch, that clearly indicates that my brain treats these exclamations as words and uses the appropriate one.

Færd

18:10

I remember saying ouch on the spot. Maybe I was in an English mood at those times.

Most of the time I'd say آخ (Farsi) though.

terdon

Or just AAAAaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhiiiiiiiiiiiiyooooooo‌ooouuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuubastaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaard!

Færd

Yeah, it depends on the level of the pain. :)

Cerberus

forvo.com/search/%D8%A2%D8%AE

Comme ça?

terdon

@Cerberus Oh wow, that sounds so like the Greek equivalent of Ah.

forvo.com/search/%CF%89%CF%87

Færd

@Cerberus Yeah, almost the same as the first one.

@terdon Interesting.

Cerberus

18:13

@terdon Mm hmm.

It also sounds somewhat like Dutch ach/och.

Which are more of a complaint, or a shrugging emotion, than pain.

terdon

Does Dutch have such a soft, aspirated ch sound?

Cerberus

Dutch ch is like /x/.

Spanish j.

terdon

That's a phoneme that drives English speakers up the wall.

Cerberus

But what doesn't?

terdon

@Cerberus Oh. I thought Dutch only had harder versions.

Cerberus

18:15

I don't know how hard it is.

terdon

Well, English has the really soft (and yes, I know there aren't rigorous terms) h and the hard ch but nothing in between like the Spanish j.

Cerberus

Oh, to a Dutchman those are two completely different sounds, /h/ and /x/.

forvo.com/search/achtergevel

G and ch are both /x/ in native words.

English ch and Spanish ch are /tʃ/, entirely different from Dutch ch.

Færd

@Cerberus Is that the same as χ in ωχ?

Cerberus

@Færd It's close, at least. The IPA symbol was no doubt chosen after Greek.

englishstudent

@Færd Same here but I never say the f-word out loud. I usually just say shit!

Færd

18:18

As for fuck I'm absolutely in training to quit saying it.

Oops.

englishstudent

@Færd That reminds me, in English when I hear fuckity fuck fuck! it sounds very funny.

Færd

@Cerberus Good to know. Could you please give me an example of the Spanish j sound you were talking about too?

Well, only if you think it sounds different than χ.

englishstudent

But in real life many people have told me not even to say shit! out loud so I'm practicing not to say it anymore.

It looks bad.

Færd

@englishstudent For me, it's not good if I don't have control over it.

englishstudent

It is like involuntary for me, I mean whenever something goes wrong etc.

@Færd Yep.

Færd

18:24

And I could have the decency to swear in Farsi when I'm talking to Farsi speakers.

So, yeah, better to quit them for now.

englishstudent

I rarely swear in my native language. Rarely. There is a reason, swear words in my own language sound very awful to me, maybe because I can understand them very well.

Cerberus

@Færd forvo.com/search/caja

To me it sounds very similar.

Spanish x and g (before i/e) also have that sound.

Færd

@englishstudent I just wanted to say that. But there are swear words and there are swear words.

@Cerberus To me too. Thanks.

Cerberus

But you will notice that some Spanish accents have a very soft j, more like /h/ than like /x/.

Færd

Hmm.

Cerberus

18:29

And southern Dutch accents will also pronounce g/ch in a soft way that doesn't doesn't sound like /x/ at all, nor like /h/.

Everyone below the Rhine.

Færd

Like what then? like a prolonged /k/?

Cerberus

Uhh.

Not like /k/ at all.

It's soft.

I don't know how to write it.

Færd

I meant like a softened, prolonged /k/.

Cerberus

If you soften /k/, it will sound nothing like /k/?

Færd

But why am I guessing at something I don't know?

englishstudent

18:33

@Cerberus Igmur doesn't work very well for me these days. Can I make an account at that site? It is a photo sharing site right?

Færd

@Cerberus It's just being pronounced from the place /k/ is.

Cerberus

@englishstudent How do you mean, it doesn't work? That image is not on Imgur.

@Færd I would say a bit more to the back.

Færd

Oh, so I wasn't too far.

@Cerberus Nice map. It's the Netherlands though, right?

Cerberus

I would say it's closer to /x/ than to /k/.

@Færd And other Dutch-speaking regions.

englishstudent

@Cerberus I know it isn't Igmur. I can see that image perfectly, I meant I usually upload things on Igmur and the website doesn't work well these days. It is down etc. often times, at least for me. So I was asking if you knew any other good alternatives like that site above. :)

@Cerberus So you say "How do you mean?" I say "What do you mean?"

Færd

18:38

@Cerberus My /k/ can be more to the back than /x/.

Cerberus

> Soft Dutch g: [ʝ] (voiced) and [ç] (unvoiced)

@Færd Then your /x/ sounds more like a soft Dutch g!

@englishstudent I just copied the link from Google images; the image is hosted on Blogspot.

englishstudent

@Cerberus oh. ok.

Færd

Well, my soft /x/ may well be like a soft Dutch g.

Cerberus

I use a programma that automatically uploads to Imgur, so I wouldn't know about their website.

Mitch

@Cerberus pfft

Cerberus

18:40

Voiced soft Dutch g: nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stemhebbende_palatale_fricatief

Færd

We have soft /k/ and 'thick' /k/, and soft and fierce /x/s.

Cerberus

Unvoiced: nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stemloze_palatale_fricatief

@Færd Interesting.

Mitch

@Cerberus The one unfortunate thing about forvo is it doesn't tell you what it means.

Cerberus

There are books for that...

Færd

@Cerberus Heh, that's softer than I had in mind. We have that too.

Cerberus

18:44

Woordenboeken, is what we call them.

@Færd Of course. You're well below the Rhine.

You must also be Catholic.

spits

Mitch

@Cerberus i want one stop shopping

and the cashier to bag it for me

Cerberus

Next life.

englishstudent

Is there a next life?!

I know... but...

Færd

@Cerberus I gather those bellow the Rhine are all Catholic to you.

Cerberus

Indeed, they are.

Mitch

18:46

I'm going to end it all and stop believing in reincarnation in my next life

terdon

Oy!

englishstudent

Oi!

Mitch

Hey!

englishstudent

@Mitch So I notice many older people become religious. All over the world I guess. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

Mitch

@englishstudent religion is to give old ladies something to do on the weekends

englishstudent

18:49

@Cerberus I didn't read the news today. How is Amsterdam today?

Mitch

@englishstudent oh boy

englishstudent

@Mitch That's funny.

ok. ok. I will read it now.

Mitch

@englishstudent I was making a sly reference to the Beatles.

The Beatles - A Day In The Life

►

englishstudent

hah!

Cerberus

@englishstudent No so much "become" as "remain".

Mitch

18:53

also has the classic intrusive 'r' in "I sawr a film today"

or is that linking? it's one r the other.

Cerberus

@englishstudent Nothing of interest; how about your city?

@Mitch Hah.

It's intrusive indeed.

The linking r is like French liaison: it's normally not pronounced, but it is always written.

Intrusive r is not written.

Færd

@Cerberus What's the religion in those light blue regions? I might be one of those.

Cerberus

@Færd It's atheism.

englishstudent

@Mitch Yes my reactions can be weird sometimes I know. It is just that my dad used to scold me often when I was very young so I get scared easily sometimes. It is sad, but true. But I have learned to be happy and ignore things you know.

Cerberus

The nationals of those light-blue places worship no gods.

Mitch

18:56

@Cerberus nice mnemonic. or rather what it really is

Cerberus

nods

Mitch

@Cerberus i don't believe it

Cerberus

And "it" is a deity?

Færd

@Cerberus It's as true as "They worship this or that god."

In your system of logic, at least.

Cerberus

is afraid he doesn't understand

Mitch

18:59

@englishstudent ?? 'oh boy' is not scolding at all. it means ... 'uh oh' (concern) or 'oh great' (excitement) or a bunch of things, but not at all scolding. 'boy' itself might be scolding if followed by a command.

Færd

Oh man.

englishstudent

@Mitch haha. I know. I misread. lel.

Funny even!

Oh boy the things I say in chat.

Mitch

One never says 'oh lady', except to get her attention when she's left her umbrella at the counter.

Færd

@Cerberus I guess I do. You said the religion is atheism because they worship no god. I said they represents a set with no members, so it's as true to say they worship X, because there's no they.

englishstudent

@Cerberus My city is fine. Thanks.

Mitch

19:01

or 'oh woman' unless you're Jesus. (look it up, he was scolding his mom)

or 'Oh girl' (unless you're the beatles)

The Beatles - Girl (live)

►

@Færd Everyone in that set believes in God.

Færd

And then I remembered that I consider a statement about the members of an empty set to be inherently vague, as opposed to Cerb who doesn't, so I said "In your system of logic, at least".

Mitch

@Færd Their beliefs are more... fluid.

Færd

Yeah. They're liberal in their religion.

Cerberus

@Færd Ah, well, it depends on your interpretation of the text, on your translation of it into formal logic.

And people are still so very much afraid of Russia...

Mitch

@englishstudent I used to think that too. As a little kid your parents make you do religious stuff and then as you grow up you rebel a little bit and then the few times you do religious things with your family you see mostly old people.

englishstudent

19:08

@Cerberus I think Russia is cool.

Cerberus

Cold, even.

englishstudent

@Mitch That is very true.

Færd

Saudi Arabia doesn't conform to the general pattern.

Or is the most non-conforming one.

Mitch

@Cerberus yay! USA wins! woo hoo!

Cerberus

@Færd It has the highest military spending as a percentage of GDP, yes.

@Mitch Congratulations.

Mitch

19:09

except for child mortality, secondary education, etc

englishstudent

@Mitch You Yanks are lucky!

Mitch

@Cerberus a lot of the US military spending helps them out.

Cerberus

@Mitch You'll defeat Saudi Arabia in any criterion.

@Mitch How do you mean?

SA buys its weapons in America and Europe, sadly.

englishstudent

China is doing pretty good too it seems.

Cerberus

And it pumps money into western Indonesia to radicalise it.

Mitch

19:10

@Cerberus we also win on per capita health care spending. but are pretty low on avg lifespan for developed countries

we win on obesity.

Cerberus

Hmm hmm.

Mitch

what else? higher education costs.

Cerberus

I believe you don't even win on obesity any more.

I think Mexico wins now?

Mitch

no we're still first

oh we're neck and neck with Mexico. yes, I think they passed us by last year

Cerberus

Most Obese Countries In The World
Rank Country Percentage of population
1 Palau 47.10%
2 Nauru 45.10%
3 Marshall Islands 42.30%
4 Samoa 41.60%

Mitch

19:12

congratulations!

American Samoas are one flavor of Girl Scout cookies.

Færd

People are saying these maps are going to turn upside-down in the next decades, particularly that China will surpass the US in economy and military power.

I don't know how to calculate that, or evaluate the statement.

Mitch

@Cerberus but the big European countries are catching up, England, Germany, France.

englishstudent

@Mitch "yanks" isn't offensive right? I hear people use it sometimes. I used it in a humorous way btw.

Mitch

@Færd per capita maybe, but the large portion of people in China are still not well off.

englishstudent

@Cerberus You are good with the charts and graphs.

Mitch

19:14

@englishstudent I think it is intended to be pejrative but it sounds silly to me.

Færd

@Mitch Well, maybe that prediction gives them a long enough time to catch up.

englishstudent

@Mitch I see. So what's the other word that I could use besides "americans" that is not silly etc.?

Mitch

@Færd their economy is growing fast (whatever quantitative # is being used) 8% per year GDP? so could easily overtake the US in a short time. but I think it is an artifact of banking. the wellness has not spread to the entire population.

I don't think the quality of living is on average is near as good as the US (much less than Europe).

Færd

Maybe they will become more homogeneous in wealth? That could be calculated too.

englishstudent

Those charts and graphs can be inaccurate quite often.

Mitch

19:19

@englishstudent oh...uh... American is great if you're just talking to people from the US or Europe. To people in Latin America i've heard it sometimes sounds weird because they are all literally from 'America' (Central and Southern) too. Canadians don't care I don't think. (Any Canadians who can commment here?)

@Færd I think that's called the Gini index

englishstudent

@Mitch ah cool.

Mitch

I should be asking you

Færd

@Mitch There you go. Now your homework is to plot a graph and extrapolate the future of China's economy. Hand it in by tomorrow at the latest.

Mitch

@Færd uh...

I'll get right on it

Færd

pats Mitch on the back

Mitch

19:26

englishstudent

@Færd wow, you talk like a teacher.

@Mitch Is it a ready made map?

Færd

@Mitch Good job. So far a C.

Mitch

Færd

@englishstudent I used to be one.

englishstudent

Just curious. Or if not which software did you use?

Mitch

19:28

@Færd how about now?

englishstudent

@Færd Ah nice.

Mitch

@englishstudent no. I googled 'china growth gdp' and 'china gdp' separately, and google supplied those. I cut and pasted the image and uploded here. it too me exactly the time from when you asked to now.

Færd

@Mitch No extrapolation yet, but never mind. That plot explains itself to some extent.

B

englishstudent

From me @Mitch would get an A for those graphs if not A+ but I'm quite lenient in nature.

Mitch

@Færd "It's hard to make predictions, especially about the future."

Færd

19:31

Haha.

englishstudent

@Mitch Sorry I misread. good work.

Mitch

would it help if I noted that one graph is the integral (or really partial sum) of the other?

englishstudent

My brain isn't working well now I guess. Good night all. See you guys around.

Mitch

I don't want to give away @Cerberus's magic trcks but I'm sure he does something similar, google searches for a keyword and 'map' then looks at google images.

englishstudent

Yeah Googles images are quite handy.

Færd

19:34

But we were talking about about the genie in the bottle. Nothing about that so far.

@englishstudent G'night.

@Mitch It would.

Mitch

@Færd google.com/publicdata/…

Færd

Year - World Gini coefficients
1820 0.43
1850 0.53
1870 0.56
1913 0.61
1929 0.62
1950 0.64
1960 0.64
1980 0.66
2002 0.71
2005 0.68

> More detailed data from similar sources plots a continuous decline since 1988. This is attributed to globalization increasing incomes for billions of poor people, mostly in India and China.

Mitch

which, as I suspected, is difficult for China because of lack of data on them.

Færd

@Mitch Nice job.

Mitch

I'd suspect China has a terrible Gini index because a very few super bajilionaires, and a great swath of impoverished people. Their big cities are becoming very middle class (lots of infrastructure investment/moving rural people to cities)

US's gini index is rising (more imbalance/more rich people to poor people/ sign of more inequality), which is sited as trouble for the US (as opposed to European countries who haven't (yet!) succumbed to extortionist CEO salaries and benefits.

But despite that large gini index, (also the media's worries about the shrinking 'middle class) the size of the lower class in the US is shrinking too.

It's all relative.

@Færd Why aren't you giving MAR a deadline on his medication replicator-in-a-box project?

Færd

19:55

> Richest u % of population (red) equally share f % of all income or wealth, others (green) equally share remainder: G = f − u. A smooth distribution (blue) with same u and f always has G > f − u.

I think for gini to be more meaningful (to me) it has to be something like standard deviation, or even more detailed than that.

@Mitch He has to study for Konkoor (a serious test that will determine which college he will go to).

And yet he is always chatting here and there. Maybe I should be tougher on him.

Mitch

oops GNI is not the same as Gini index. Here is a link to the gini index comparison

china is the worst but only a little moreso than the US.

@Færd I find the Gini index hard to understand like that.

Færd

I'm not sure about the logic behind that definition.

I don't know. I'm new to it.

englishstudent

@Mitch Interesting. So if the size of lower class is shrinking then are they getting rich? I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

Mitch

I think of it as a curve from (0,0) to (1,1) x-axis is percent of max income and y-axis is %of GDP owned or something like that. so the curve goes from 0,0 to 1,1. some people earn more than others and so those bigger earners also own more GDP (ok GDP is not the right thing here but close).

so a 'good' graph goes straight from 0,0 to 1,1.

but most countries graphs are a concave curve (low first then rises)

the closer the curve is to a straight line the more 'equitable' that country is considered

and if the curve is flat for a ways then rises sharply then it is considered somewhat unequal.

the steeper the curve the more income inequality there is.

the Gini index is the area above the curve.

Færd

Yeah, but think of a country where all the wealth is in the hands of one person to another where it's in the control of an economical and political elite with, say, 100 members.

Mitch

20:07

so the higher the index, the 'worse' things are (unless you're super rich, and then you don't care anyway)

Færd

The Gini index is almost the same for those two countries, right? If the population is fairly big.

Mitch

@Færd sure. if the population is even 10,000 they're both have bad Gini indexes. still a super great majority of extremely poor people.

@Færd well, Im not doing the math, but yes, that's what I just guessed

Færd

But those two countries will have governments of very different natures.

Mitch

@englishstudent a picture is better than words here.

Færd

That's why I'm saying gini coefficient is not detailed enough.

Mitch

20:09

suppose you split a population into three parts: poor, middle class, rich. ignoring how rich or poor.

englishstudent

@Mitch Yesterday a lizard came to my room and I had to kill it. Is it okay to kill a lizard, mouse etc. there in US?

Mitch

people can move from poor to middle and middle to rich. so fewer poor and middle and more rich.

you can still say 'middle class' is shrinking

englishstudent

that makes sense.

wow. thinks about moving to US.

Mitch

@englishstudent It would be really bad if I came to your room and killed a lizard.

travel, visa hotel. getting out of jail when you call the police. lots of stuff

@englishstudent well, check your gini index first.

also, haven't you read the news lately?

Færd

@Mitch Yeah, so? I'm not sure what you're explaining.

englishstudent

20:12

@Mitch huh? Oh you are kidding. But you are welcome to come here and kill a lizard for me.

Mitch

@Færd I'm explaining how people (at least I hear this in the US) keep complaining about how the middle class is shrinking. and I think the 'poor' is shrinking more and that's not ever said.

Færd

Ah.

Mitch

@englishstudent of course I'm kidding. yes, it is totally OK to kill a lizard or mouse in your home.

englishstudent

@Mitch I only know one genie and that's ginie in a bottle baby...

Færd

What if they claim the house theirs and kill you?

Mitch

20:14

It's not the most fun thing in the world.

but it is done.

englishstudent

@Mitch Oh good. good.

Mitch

I prefer to capture them and release in my neighbor's yard

@englishstudent I need a youtube link for that

englishstudent

lel

Mitch

@Færd That's totally fair. I welcome the challenge.

dons night-vision goggles

holds large mallet over mousehole

englishstudent

@Mitch Sure. Do you have speakers with you now, or headphones for that matter? I hope you are not in office or somewhere. Here you go

huh that's a different version I guess.

Mitch

20:21

@englishstudent turns up volume

englishstudent

:)

Mitch

turns monitor so everybody can see

clicks link

Wait, is this SFW?

englishstudent

I don't know. I didn't see any warning etc.

Yeah SFW I'm sure.

Mitch

20:32

@englishstudent haha. yes, it's totally SFW.

Cerberus

20:59

@Mitch The "big" countries, I see.

@Færd It's hard to say, but it will probably happen eventually. China's current rapid growth will soon slow down, though.

@Mitch Yeah, I type "gim diagram world military expenditure" in my address bar, where "gim" is my keyword for Google Images.

> The 20 least obese countries in the world

1. Ethiopia

Who'd have guessed?

M.A.R.

Me me me

Cerberus

21:24

Congratulations!

You're a genius.

M.A.R.

@Cerberus Nice. What do geniuses do when they find out they're a genius?

Cerberus

They hand out cake.

M.A.R.

I don't trust your answer. It includes giving. ಠ_ಠ

Cerberus

Alternatively, they take over the world.

M.A.R.

I'm too lazy for that

Mitch

21:36

The world's 10 largest economies 1970-2030 by @aronstrandberg https://t.co/2A6zVfXQrM

Tweeted by robertoglezcano on March 13, 2017 at 6:15 PM

an animation

@Cerberus haha big. no pun intended

@Cerberus that's what I suspect, that China can't keep up such huge growth rate for long.

@M.A.R. Wait...are you looking for suggestions for yourself? Definitely give out cake to others. If it's donuts, that's perfectly fine too.

M.A.R.

@Mitch What if I make cake and eat in front of others?

Lawrence

22:15

@Færd I used odd as a synonym for strange.

8 hours ago, by Færd

But it can be confusing for me. The perfect infinitive in this one sounds strange "I wanted to have called you, but ...".

Cerberus

22:38

@Mitch Suuuure.

@Mitch It has already been slacking somewhat.

Mitch

23:43

@M.A.R. did you make enough for everybody?

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…