English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

00:02

@Tonepoet It depends on the purpose of your counting.

SmokeDetector

07:49

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in body, bad keyword in title: As black radley handbag it can possibly be considered an individual by radlelgl on english.SE

Matt E. Эллен

10:11

3

Q: Can three people sit in a circle?

Is it appropriate to say: The three characters sat down in a circle. When it means that three people sat down facing each other? Technically this formation would be a triangle, but is it appropriate usage to say that they sat in a circle, as with a larger group? I am a student and wrote a ...

If the circle is big enough to contain them, yes.

M.A.R.

10:37

@MattE.Эллен And if it's not of hell

Guyses, would a question about punctuation/typography be on-topic here?

It's about how to unambiguously write something

But the answer isn't grammar- or meaning-oriented, but punctuation oriented. Prolly.

M.A.R.

12:18

Anybody here?

Andrew Leach

Depends.

M.A.R.

@AndrewLeach I have my question typed and ready, and I was wondering if I should post it

2 hours ago, by M.A.R.

Guyses, would a question about punctuation/typography be on-topic here?

Andrew Leach

Well, we have a tag for [punctuation] and tags for individual punctuation marks like [comma]. But I don't know how a punctuation question might not be grammar- or meaning-related, because punctuation influences meaning and is ruled by grammar. That is, a comma in the wrong place can produce ungrammar or destroy the intended meaning.

Orthography (spelling) is on-topic; typography (the art of type) probably not.

M.A.R.

@AndrewLeach I know, my question is entirely different from that stuff

> I'm thinking of a context similar to [this post](https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/323148/should-i-encourage-people-to-use-the-localized-versions-of-so).

I'm familiar with the [conventions of pluralizing acronyms](http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/503/what-is-the-correct-way-to-pluralize-an-acronym), and that the poster would have had to use an apostrophe if they wanted to pluralize "S.O." instead of "SO".

Suppose that I had to spell out the name of the Stack Overflow company in the plural form. I can choose either of "Stack Overflows" or "Stack Overflow's". Which one is…

Here's the question body, as of now

Andrew Leach

So you're pluralising "Stack Overflow"?

As in two Stack Overflow companies?

I can't see how that's "a real problem that you face", I'm afraid.

M.A.R.

12:28

@AndrewLeach Hmm, Stack Overflows

terdon

@M.A.R. never use an apostrophe. That would make it a possessive.

This "rule" about using the apostrophes for plural, if such a ghastly rule exists and it isn't just common ignorance, would only apply to acronyms, not actual words.

M.A.R.

@AndrewLeach Wow, that's a requirement? It's not that I'd die if I don't find out the conventions, but I wanna use them in my future posts

Andrew Leach

Generally, if you really wanted to talk about several Costains, or Tescos (Tescoes?) then just an s. But since company names are unique, when would you ever need to pluralise them?

That's why it's not a real problem. The situation should never arise.

M.A.R.

@AndrewLeach I have at least done that twice, lemme find the link

terdon

@M.A.R. You can basically never go wrong if you just add an s and you will usually be wrong if you add the apostrophe (with the exception of special cases like S.A.S's or whatever). So just don't use the apostrophe.

@AndrewLeach Um. Bad example: There are 12 Tescos in my neighborhood ;P

Andrew Leach

12:31

No, there are twelve Tesco stores in your neighbourhood. They are all the same Tesco company.

terdon

Sure, but Tesco, like Sainsbury's (and there's a harder one) are also used to refer to the physical store, not just the company that owns them.

Andrew Leach

Now, if it were "There are twelve John Smiths in the phone book"...

terdon

And you could pluralize SO, why not? "Now, with all the new Stack Overflows in different languages" or "Now, with all the new SOs in different languages"

Andrew Leach

So all of these real-world examples need to be in the question. @M.A.R.

terdon

Anyway, @M.A.R., golden rule: apostrophe for possessive, not for plurals. While there are exceptions to this rule, they are few and far between and you are far likelier to get it wrong if you use an apostrophe than if you don't.

And it looks really wrong to see the apostrophe being used as a plural for no good reason. Far worse than writing SOSs (or even S.O.S.s) instead of SOS's.

You know, like that horrid CD's and DVD's we keep reading. The CD's what, dammit?

Andrew Leach

12:34

England is a nation of greengrocer's.

terdon

Grrrr

M.A.R.

@AndrewLeach Sure, but wouldn't that be unnecessary fluff? If you search for 'sos' or 'stackoverflows' on meta.SO, the ones that aren't erroneously possessive but without an apostrophes are plurals of SO.

Which usually stands for 'localized versions of SO'

Andrew Leach

There you go then. You have your answer. No apostrophe.

Now, if you think it's a useful question, by all means ask it. This discussion should help you to frame it in such a way that it isn't closed in short order.

M.A.R.

@AndrewLeach Shrug I wouldn't have trusted people that don't apply correct apostrophes to apply incorrect ones in plurals of SO. Whatever

terdon

I doubt I have ever used an apostrophe for plural. If I had to, I would probably just remove the . from the initials and use an s. The apostrophe is too ambiguous and just looks ugly to me.

M.A.R.

12:38

@AndrewLeach Nah, it was a bit trivial anyway

I had SO as some kind of a unit in my mind, so I doubted whether or not to insert an apostrophe.

I do need to post some clickbaity thing to get to 125 rep to be able to downvote, though

That day would be glorious

Andrew Leach

A good SWR answer would probably suffice for that.

terdon

@M.A.R. The only time where you might want to think of inserting an apostrophe, even according to the answer you linked to, is when you are pluralizing something that is i) an acronym/initials; ii) separated with . and iii) ends with an s. Since SO is only one of the above, it wouldn't have an apostrophe anyway.

M.A.R.

@terdon I was thinking of the brand name, not the abbreviation

@AndrewLeach Answers are too intimidating. I need to test the waters with a question first

terdon

@M.A.R. The brand name is Stack Overflow. SO is an initialism, or whatever those are called.

Andrew Leach

9 mins ago, by Andrew Leach

Now, if it were "There are twelve John Smiths in the phone book"...

terdon

12:41

Also, what tchrist said:

Acronyms ending in the letter “S” take -es in the plural: “Your SOSes are getting through to no one.” — tchrist ♦ Apr 1 '12 at 1:38

There is really very little good reason I can think of to ever use the apostrophe for plurals.

M.A.R.

OK, got your point

Mitch

13:28

@M.A.R. punctuation of English is entirely on-topic.

as to your particular question... I don't know

@AndrewLeach That's just bad planning

I came here for one reason.

"Quotation is a serviceable substitute for wit"

skullpetrol

Nice.

Andrew Leach

@Mitch And that quote really nails the truth of itself.

skullpetrol

Indeed.

Færd

13:51

Hello.

> He was to have been sentenced in the criminal case in January, but that has been postponed (COCA)

Does the simple infinitive (he was to be) work in this type of unreal past instead of the perfect?

skullpetrol

Works for me.

Færd

I guess it does, as I think it does in "I meant to tell / have told you, but ...".

But it can be confusing for me. The perfect infinitive in this one sounds strange "I wanted to have called you, but ...".

And the simple infinitive sounds strange in this one: "I'm so sorry not to come to your party yesterday".

skullpetrol

Yup, I would just play them by ear.

Færd

14:07

I'm just sprouting ears, to be excessively optimistic.

skullpetrol

I'm sure there are technical reasons for them all...

Færd

Well, maybe.

Thanks.

skullpetrol

np

MDHunter

14:35

Just additional confirmation --- that's perfectly fine for me, too.

skullpetrol

Thanks for your support :-)

terdon

I guess it comes down to whether you treat "be sentenced" as a unit (not sure if that would be a noun-phrase) or not. So, he is to be sentenced becomes he was to be sentenced. Alternatively, you can treat each verb as a verb, so you get he was to be sentenced which becomes he was to have been sentenced.

Damned if I can choose one as being more correct than the other though.

On the one hand he was to be does work for me, on the other, I find the lack of agreement between was and be slightly odd. I may well have written he was to have been instead. But I can just as easily see me writing he was to be. Sigh

MDHunter

I'd choose based on whether his having (already) been sentenced during the interim period was particularly salient or not. To my ear, I detect a slight difference in that "he was to be" places emphasis on the sentencing, i.e., on the moment of sentencing, whereas "he was to have been" emphasizes the period after in which the accused now finds himself. Perhaps that's obvious, though.

M.A.R.

14:58

@terdon It's a complement of a verb

@Færd I don't see anything wrong with it

Hmm, does @Fard ping you?

terdon

@M.A.R. Huh? What is? be sentenced?

M.A.R.

Hmm, IIRC they called the stuff after 'to' complements of 'was'. I might be wrong since I haven't studied this stuff for ages

terdon

@MDHunter I think I'd read he was to be as suggesting something like "he was going to be sentenced on Tuesday, but now he'll be sentenced on Wednesday" and he was to have been as implying that he will no longer be sentenced at all. Or so I claim despite rapidly approaching that point where I've thought about this sentence too long and it has lost all semblance of sense.

M.A.R.

IOW, they would be part of the verb phrase, if that's what's you're looking for

Lawrence

@Færd The oddness in that particular example might be due to "have told" sounding as if it shifts the telling to before the time that the speaker "meant to" tell it.

terdon

15:03

@M.A.R. Yes, but I think it's more complex when you have something like he was to be sentenced which includes three separate verbs. That's what makes this particular example complex. That you can conjugate either was to be or was and be.

M.A.R.

@terdon Well, 'sentenced' complements 'be' and 'be' complements 'was'

The only problem here is this might not be the right labels

terdon

@M.A.R. Ah, but does it? I'm pretty sure that be is not complimenting was. It is to be that is the complement. Or, possibly, to be sentenced. I'm not very good at these myself. But I don't see how the complement can be be and not to be.

M.A.R.

Hmm, perhaps yeah

Makes more sense

'to' is a complementizer, right?

So is a complementizer part of the complement?

Shrug I need to take a nap. \o

MDHunter

@terdon I'm with you on the thinking about it too long! Your first part comports with my thinking: it places the emphasis on the act of sentencing. But, "was to have been" does not, for me, lead to an implication that he is no longer going to be sentenced. I was thinking, "He was to have been sentenced on Tuesday, but the hearing was delayed, thus he was not in court when the building caught fire, killing everyone inside." In any event, both emphasize the period after the (non)sentencing.

terdon

Yeah. I won't press the point. I can parse it in a dozen ways at this point.

MDHunter

15:14

Fair enough, me too.

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Offensive body detected: What is your favorite novel? by jackman on english.SE

Mitch

15:37

@AndrewLeach You may quote me without attribution.

oops...I mean:

"You may quote me without attribution"

As someone once said "You may quote me without attribution"

"Imitation is the sincerest form of repetition"

Phylogeny recapitulates ontogeny

Geomorphology recapitulates orogeny

Eschew 'eschew'

terdon

@Mitch Good. Now swallow.

englishstudent

Howdy. If someone says “you are being rude I’m afraid” does that make sense and look correct? Because on reading the sentence again it also gives off this meaning “I fear your rudeness” or “I’m afraid because you are being rude” so I don’t know. Maybe it is just my semantic satiation. I’m wanting to use “I’m afraid” to mean “regret” of course.

terdon

@englishstudent Add a comma: you are being rude, I'm afraid

But it would never be taken to mean "you are being rude, and so I am afraid". Not unless you use a full stop (You are being rude. I'm afraid) or a semicolon (You are being rude; I'm afraid).

In any case, it feels more natural to turn it around in this case: I am afraid you are being rude.

englishstudent

15:54

@terdon Oh ok. Thanks a bunch. So is it necessary to write "I'm afraid" at the start of the sentence? Or is it optional?

Færd

@terdon Yeah, but the problem is sometimes you're free to take that as one unit and sometimes you're not. And I don't think the technicalities (whether it's a noun phrase and what's a complement of what) will help solve the basic problem of when the perfect infinitive is mandatory, optional, or impossible. Because grammar is just reasoning things out in retrospect.

terdon

@englishstudent Optional. But if you put it at the end, you need a comma.

Færd

@MDHunter Thanks for the insightful input.

englishstudent

Thanks.

Færd

@M.A.R. No, it doesn't.

terdon

15:55

You need the ~~annoying~~ ~~pedantic~~ elusive æ.

2

:P

Færd

@Lawrence I didn't say that one's odd. Do you think it is? I can see your point, though.

@terdon Would you please ping me with @Faerd so we could see if it works?

terdon

Pretty sure it doesn't:

@Faerd

Did it?

Færd

Hah! It does!

terdon

Really?

Færd

Yeah.

skullpetrol

15:58

cool

terdon

Huh. Clever. I can see that they autocomplete Fae to Færd, changing my ae to æ, so I guess they also parse it that way in the background.

Hmm. How about unicode @Fαerd

I guess that didn't ping you, right?

Færd

Nope.

It didn't.

terdon

Yeah, OK. That was an alpha.

Færd

Greeks.

I used to be Fard, but then I found out that it was read like fart (with /ɑ:/), so I changed it to Færd.

skullpetrol

I can understand why you changed it :-)

Færd

16:04

But now Brits are going to say they don't pronounce the r in Færd and so they read it like Fæd, in which case I'd say "Pretty please make this one exception and pronounce the r so I won't have to change it to /Færd/. It's a proper name FGS."

skullpetrol

Is it your real first name?

Færd

No. :)

skullpetrol

:-)

Færd

It means something like unique, or alone, or a combination of the two.

skullpetrol

In Persian?

Færd

16:07

In Arabic. It is used in Persian too, but it's not too common.

skullpetrol

Okay.

Færd

Now let's talk about yours!

Skullpetrol?

skullpetrol

What's your first impression?

Færd

It's cool, except for the smell.

Mitch

@terdon The train is coming

Færd

16:11

@skullpetrol Hmm, like fodder for thought?

skullpetrol

Right. It's suppose to represent fuel for thought.

Færd

Yay.

terdon

Oh. Wow. I never made that connection.

Then again, I never think of fuel as petrol, only gas.

Færd

What connecttion did you make?

terdon

None. I just read it as the Nth combination of 'skull' and a word similar to patrol.

skullpetrol

16:14

:-)

Færd

@terdon You lived in England long enough to graduate from that college I don't remember the name of.

englishstudent

@Tonepoet Are you familiar with both IPA and non IPA transcription systems? I asked because Merriam Webster and American Heritage dictionaries use non IPA transcription system and others like Cambridge, Oxford etc. use IPA system. Doesn't it get confusing?

Færd

But you didn't have to think about it. :)

terdon

@Færd Yes, and I'm well aware of the BrE use of petrol but since I didn't have a car at the time, it wasn't a term I picked up. I do have various bits and pieces of BrE in my vocabulary, but that's not one of them.

Færd

That's cool. My vocab is a mixture too. And I kinda like it this way.

And Occasionally I allow myself to cherry-pick the grammar rules that I really like, regardless of the dialect they belong to.

terdon

16:17

Yep.

skullpetrol

What does "terdon" represent? @terdon

terdon

Call it an "idiolect" and you're home free.

Færd

@terdon Yeah. If there's one language where that's allowed, it's English.

terdon

@skullpetrol Um. it's what I got when setting up a new computer in my first or second year of university and just sort of randomly hitting keys, trying to get a balance between consonants and vowels. No more than that.

Færd

When I first saw your name it reminded me of some word.

skullpetrol

16:19

^

terdon

Yeah. As I recall, that was the idea. I just wanted something pronounceable and, at the ripe old age of 20 or whatever I was at the time, had decided that I was too grown up to use any of the various Tolkien-derived usernames I'd been using until then.

skullpetrol

Perhaps an abbreviation for tyrannosaurus rex?

englishstudent

I hear there is something called "tedron swords". Not the same word but looks like a related one.

well I was just googling your name. :)

Færd

So terdon is a thing after all.

terdon

I seem to recall it means something in some Scandinavian language. I kept finding things like that last time I searched.

Heh, with the popularity of SE, the top hits are all me now.

Ah, yes, this guy: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:TERdON

skullpetrol

16:25

"Terdon swords" is raider-like :-)

terdon

That was "tedron", I think.

skullpetrol

Right.

englishstudent

Yeah "tedron" with "d" first.

@terdon Is that you?

terdon

Nope

englishstudent

oh. I didn't know. :)

terdon

16:27

I am neither Sweedish, nor a student and nor do I find myself at the Technische Universität Hamburg-Harburg :)

skullpetrol

You could make up your own definition of the word and enter it in the urban dictionary?

I did that for skullpatrol.

Færd

If he'd cared that much about his screen name he'd've picked a cooler-sounding one.

terdon

^^

englishstudent

terdon sounds cool enough.

terdon

Although, it sounds fine in my head. It didn't occur to me until many years later to sound it out in English as opposed to Greek which is how I think of it.

I pronounce it as...

Hmm. Damn my ignorance of IPA. This will take a moment.

OK, say t, then the e from tepid or penta (as in -gon) and then a rolling R and "don".

Færd

16:34

Hmm. Neat.

terdon

I don't know why, but I only twigged to its similarity to the phrase turd on (which you all will now associate with my username, if you hadn't already) a couple of years ago here on SE. I'd just never pronounced it that way.

englishstudent

So is it just me or is every other definition in Urban is a joke that some random stranger on the internet wrote or words that have something to do with sex or whatever? Sometimes it is funny/ridiculous to search a word there.

terdon

@englishstudent Of course. Nobody uses that as a serious reference. I'll sometimes look up obscure slang terms there, but that's about it.

englishstudent

Yeah. True. :)

Færd

@terdon Which language are you better at, Greek or English? Does your brain have a default language?

I don't know if that question even makes sense.

terdon

16:42

@Færd English, probably. I've probably read about 50 books in English for each one I've read in Greek. I also did the last two years of school and all of my university/port graduate studies in English.

As for default, it depends. Some things come more naturally in Greek, others in English. yet others in Spanish or, more rarely, French.

But I am a better speaker of English than of any other language. Greek I can use as a tool, just like any native. English I can wield, however.

Inasmuch as I can do so with any language, anyway.

if I were to showcase my eloquence (or try to), it would be in English.

Færd

@terdon Hey, I didn't ask you to boast about them!

terdon

Heh, as long as I get two or three tries to get it right, anyway :)

Færd

;)

terdon

@Færd Well, I'm sure you know how it is. Some things are just better in specific languages and that's the language you think about them in. Don't you have things you'd say in English even though Farsi is your first language?

(It is Farsi, right?)

Færd

@terdon Well, I don't know. I don't think in English that much.

But I thought that would be how polyglotness works.

@terdon Yes.

I'm used to thinking in Farsi all the time. I'd have to make a conscious effort to switch it.

terdon

16:48

Polyglots are one thing, true bilinguals (those raised speaking two languages) are different. I'm completely bilingual between Greek and English although I have a larger vocabulary and far better grasp of grammar and formal linguistics in English.

Færd

OK. I meant bilingual. And good for you. ;)

terdon

Not really. I got them both free. There was no effort involved in my part :)

Færd

I know.

terdon

It's people like you who've actually had to work for their languages who are impressive.

Færd

If I had a child I'd bring him/her up bilingual, speaking Farsi and Esperanto.

terdon

16:51

Heh. That would be fun. Although I'd recommend English (or Chinese, or Spanish or Arabic) over Esperanto. Better to get a popular language since that allows communication with more people.

Færd

I'd need an English speaking wife (or a Chinese etc one) then. I wouldn't have him/her learn a language that is not my mother tongue from me.

Esperanto is easy. I don't have those kinds of worries about it.

terdon

Fair enough.

Færd

It's enough to give the child the opportunity of being raised bilingual, which hopefully makes learning other languages in the future much easier.

terdon

It's supposed to. Or that was the stick I was beaten over the head with when I failed to learn French in school. I used to hate that argument: "Come on son, languages are easy for you".

Turns out my parents were right, but I also had to want to learn :)

Færd

Haha! Yeah.

englishstudent

16:58

@Færd Can you speak it?

Færd

I'm learning it.

englishstudent

I see what you are saying. My #2 criterion of marrying a woman: she has to be very good at English. It's good for the kids automatically.

terdon

I would love to raise my child trilingual. Bilingual I'm pretty confident I can manage since my GF's English is almost perfect and we speak both languages at home.

@englishstudent Criterion. Sorry, I can't help it.

englishstudent

My #1 criterion is: she has to be hot.

Færd

@terdon You'd have to raise the child in another country.

englishstudent

17:01

@terdon Oops. Thanks!

Færd

@englishstudent Good luck. :)

Don't be too judgmental about that kind of stuff though.

englishstudent

Well I'm still young, I will get over it eventually.

terdon

@englishstudent Oh boy, you have that one the wrong way around. #1 is she needs to think you're hot.

englishstudent

@terdon haha.

terdon

Well, #2. #1 is that you communicate well with her. Everything else follows.

englishstudent

17:03

That's funny. :)

This room is fun. Aren't we the nicest bunch?

Færd

I don't know about that, but it's the hottest SE room right now for sure.

englishstudent

:)

Tonepoet

@englishstudent English is my first and so far only language, so I have the luxury of being ignorant of any phonetic transcription systems. Also, America is fairly insular, spanning from ocean to ocean with only several neighbors separated by vast expanses of land on the northern and southern borders. I believe the reason they're not confused by Merriam-Webster's system is more or less the same reason they are not confused by their units of measure: It's an older and more traditional system for them.

However, I believe I saw a website that translates the keys of the A.H.D. and Merriam-Webster to I.P.A. before if you need it.

englishstudent

@Tonepoet Ah I see.

Also audio is helpful. I mean for learners like me.

Mitch

17:54

@terdon What language do you swear in? What language do you count in?

terdon

@Mitch Swear in Greek 'cause it's better. Count in either. Depends. Small numbers, multiplication tables and the like, probably Greek. Anything getting more sciency, English.

What's more interesting is that involuntary exclamations of pain or surprise also change between English (ouch) and Greek (aou/ay) depending on the language mode I happened to be in.

That, to me, is the most convincing proof of bilingualism: when you are surprised in different languages.

Cerberus

@terdon It's also proof that even the seemingly most immediate, most intuitive aspects of our behaviour are often influenced by the more conscious workings of our brains.

Contrary to the American/Freudian perspective.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…