English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

MetaEd

00:14

@Cerberus No, I mean she is mentally dominated by the horrible Vlad Țepeș. Do not listen to Wilhelmina!

Cerberus

Wilhelmina?

Is this a character from Stoker's book?

Unknown123

02:47

"Furthermore, in recursion there are two important terms. Firstly, the basis which are circumstances that will stop the recursive process. And then, the recurrence which are circumstances that will call the recursive algorithm (procedure or function) itself."

May I ask something? Should I use "which are" or "which is" in that context? What is the appropriate words for that context?

May I ask something again? Which one is correct "here is an example" vs "here is the example" in the context of paragraphs (paper or web page)?

SmokeDetector

13:02

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Few unique characters in body, repeating characters in title, title has only one unique char: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa by Alice Nykaza on english.stackexchange.com

Mitch

13:27

@JohanLarsson I'm sure I've posted a handful of songs.

"The song that never ends"

Some other song.

Probably another song too

I wouldn't be surprised if that Kylie Mingue song is a repeat of mine.

I think you're implying that I'm a non-song-poster.

That stings.

RegDwigнt

After more than 100 years, the beta version of Google Street View has finally been declassified.

More scans at spiegel.de/fotostrecke/…

Mitch

14:32

@RegDwigнt argh, I knew I shoulda made a left at Albuquerque.

Færd

15:07

> I sidestepped not to be hit by the car.

Does it have to be in order not to or so as not to here?

6

Q: 'To' vs 'in order to' in negative clauses

The answers to this related question suggest that to and in order to are pretty much interchangeable, the former being preferred in informal contexts. My question is about negative clauses. According to the answers to the linked questions, the following two sentences are fine and mean the same ...

MetaEd

@Færd Perhaps if you are aiming for a formal register. Informally it will be understood.

Færd

@MetaEd Thanks. But I'd heard some people advise against in the negative, so I wondered if it sounded OK to native speakers.

And then I found that question.

terdon

15:38

@MetaEd Sounds strange to me though. I don't think I'd ever use that. Would you?

I'd probably say . . . to avoid being hit

Færd

I like what you'd probably say.

In order (not) to is too fancy for some registers or contexts, maybe.

MetaEd

@terdon It wouldn't come naturally to me either.

Færd

> [39] i. She resented his/him/*he being invited to open the debate.
ii. We appointed Max, he/him/*his being much the best qualified of the candidates.
In other words, gerunds (as in example 39i) can take either the genitive (his) or the accusative (him) as subject, with genitive being more formal and accusative less formal.

(from this answer)

Now, what do you think about this one? :

> I heard his saying to you that he was going to leave.

It's more natural to say him saying instead, isn't it?

sumelic

16:30

@Færd "His saying" sounds very unnatural to me there. But in this case, "him saying" is possible at any formality level because "saying" can clearly be interpreted as a participle rather than a gerund. It's equivalent to "I heard him; he was saying to you that he was going to leave."

MetaEd

The review queues are backing up. Could use some attention from high rep users.

3

Færd

@sumelic Thanks.

I understand your point. But, are you saying there's something syntactically different going on with heard him saying than with resented him being invited (in 39.i above)?

Why would you consider saying a participle and being a gerund? Because the latter doesn't have the equivalent form that you mentioned for the former?

sumelic

@Færd Yes. A participle phrase starting with "being" would be quite odd. For example *"I resented him, being invited" is not grammatical. But participle phrases starting with "saying" are relatively normal. "I heard him, saying to you that he was going to leave" is OK, although it sounds odd since the version without a comma works just as well.

Færd

> I hated him saying it was all my fault.

I think you would say saying is a gerund there.

sumelic

@Færd Right. So "I hated his saying it was all my fault" is a valid alternative in formal language.

Færd

16:43

I'm just not sure yet about the different labeling.

An ing-form is called a gerund when it acts like a noun, right? Is that the formula?

sumelic

@Færd Yes, that's the basic idea

Færd

I don't think saying in heard him saying is less of a noun than it is in hated him saying.

Not just because you can put some words there in between, at least.

sumelic

@Færd Here's something that might be relevant. "I heard him saying..." is more or less equivalent in meaning to "I heard him say..." But obviously you cannot say *"I hated him say..."

Færd

Hmm. That rings a bell.

@sumelic OK, thanks. I guess I understood something.

sumelic

@Færd I found a bit of discussion of this example here: englishforums.com/English/SayIng/hkwhn/post.htm

Mitch

16:55

@MetaEd the number skyrocketed a couple days ago. is that because of few reviewers or overzealous flagging?

Tonepoet

@NVZ I understand. Okay, bye bye.

user227867

17:08

@Tonepoet Who are you talking to?

user227867

@Tonepoet I sent an email to Collins again about their Italian dictionary. They finally replied this time, saying they would add entries but it won't be double because there isn't as much demand for this item as the other three languages. Fair enough, and good that they replied.

user227867

@RegDwigнt A hundred years ago, there was no Google, nor you, nor me. Unless you are talking about previous lives, which I happen to believe in.

user227867

@Tonepoet I seldom see you in chat these days. Maybe you are busy in real life, which is good. Maybe chat is a waste of time.

Tonepoet

@WillHunting I'm finishing off a discussion I was having in the reviewer's chatroom. Also I fade in and out at times. You'll notice that I have six months of inactivity if you check my rep. gain chart.

MetaEd

17:24

@Mitch Perhaps because of the US Thanksgiving holiday we got behind.

Tonepoet

@MetaEd Don't forget the Black Friday sales.

Mitch

And Torturing Tuesdays

MetaEd

and Thor's day.

Mitch

He always takes up so much time

he's has to talk everything out

daddy issues

imposter syndrome

peple just don't 'get' him.

The whole Viking thing.

user227867

18:12

@Tonepoet My fourteen Dickens novels have shipped. They should be here in two weeks.

user227867

@Mitch Are you referring to Thor? By the way, I think the Marvel Cinematic Universe movie series is becoming absurd. I no longer watch any of those movies. They just never end, and their stories become meaningless after a while.

Tonepoet

@WillHunting That's great.

user227867

@Tonepoet I wonder if I will get fourteen separate boxes, since it is from Book Depository, lol. Maybe they will put everything in one box as long as they arrive together.

Tonepoet

@WillHunting Does it even matter, just so long as they arrive in good condition? XP

user227867

@Tonepoet It doesn't. Also, I am thinking of deleting my Eng account again, but I will think about it first =P

Tonepoet

18:17

I don't really understand what the point of deleting accounts is. It's not like Stack Exchange charges a monthly fee for membership or anything.

user227867

@Tonepoet You're right. I think it is because I am still crazy.

Tonepoet

Hmm, I won't pry into that too much.

user227867

By the way, I think that Eng is now friendlier than Math.

Tonepoet

The one time I went to the mathematics S.E. chat they were helpful, but a sample of one isn't really much to base a judgement upon now.

user227867

I suppose you must be busy with work or school lately.

user227867

18:24

So far, my Windows 10 laptop is OK.

Tonepoet

My only interest in Windows is game compatibility, so I could probably stand to go as far back as XP.

I don't think any games actually require anything beyond XP.

I could be mistaken though.

Matt E. Эллен

newer games do, like dishonoured 2, call of duty: infinite war and just cause 3, require later versions of windows

but you can still play things like WoW, or guildwars 2 on XP SP2

Tonepoet

@MattE.Эллен Hmm, that's good to know actually.

Cerberus

is on XP

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Repeating characters in answer: How should I use quotation marks in sections of multiline dialogue? by ARI SMITH on english.stackexchange.com

Mitch

19:06

@Cerberus is out of XP

I'm sure there's an XP emulator for Windows 11

I'm really sure there's an XP virtual machine that you can run in Virtual Box or some other virtualization software.

@MetaEd idea for a MMORPG to ignore family over holidays: a collborative Q&A on English language.

no. that would never fly

Better: like how WoW is like DnD but online SW, do that for Nomic

But maybe with avatars

so there's someting to look at.

user227867

Hello @Mitch I am feeling sad and lonely now.

Mitch

@WillHunting any reason or just general 'life sucks'?

user227867

@Mitch I think it's more like many different reasons put together. Sometimes, I feel that I am never going to get well.

user227867

I hope Kit's surgery will go fine. I sent her an email a few days ago.

Mitch

sometimes meds work, sometimes talking works, sometimes just time.

@WillHunting yeah.

user227867

19:16

Sometimes, while I am trying to make something better, it gets worse, and I still blame myself for it. I keep blaming myself for every small thing.

user227867

I wonder why people put the continent in their location. If they don't want to put the country, they can leave it blank.

Mitch

I don't know what is worse, being able to blame myself for things because I could have changed them, or not being able to change anything because everything is entirely out of my control.

I think I am lucky because I don't think about that much, and don't worry about the outcome.

much

@WillHunting I know! Asia does not really narrow down things much

user227867

I think I am very unlucky in some ways.

user227867

@Mitch The only country that is a continent, in some definitions, is Australia.

Mitch

flip a coin 10 times. you'll get between 3 and 8 heads 95% of the time.

user227867

19:20

Have you ever looked inside a Macquarie Dictionary? It seems to be sold only in Australia or online at Australian websites. I am curious.

Mitch

That'll test if you have bad luck.

@WillHunting And with our planned revolutionary reunification of your home continent, Antarctica will be a nother.

user227867

I guess non-Australians don't use Australian-specific terms, so that makes sense.

Mitch

@WillHunting never heard of that.

macquarie sounds very Australian though

user227867

It is the authority on English in Australia.

user227867

I am very happy with my blue socks. They are of the right length and thickness this time.

user227867

19:26

When will hats begin this year @MattE.Эллен?

Mitch

@WillHunting To you, do the australians sound more british or more american (in accent that is)?

Matt E. Эллен

19:47

@WillHunting at some point... when did they start last year?

MetaEd

@Mitch Nomic! drools

Mitch

@MetaEd I've never played it, but it's always think of it as a metaphor for everything.

MetaEd

@Mitch I propose that we amend your last chat post to read: "I've played it plenty of times." Everybody vote.

Mitch

20:03

@MetaEd It's what I do walking down the street

My thought processes are a constitutional representational dictatorship.

Until we change it.

MetaEd

@Mitch I invoke judgment on your thought processes.

Mitch

@MetaEd OH. Haha. I get it now.

hey! stop that! I can think my own thoughts.

Stop...voting...against...my...autony... Sure, that sounds good.

picks up knife

plucks hair

tries to split hair on knife edge

tries to split hair on knife edge...

tries to split hair on knife edge

Who the hell put a butter knife in with the steak knives?

Matt E. Эллен

20:34

the cows

MetaEd

20:55

@Mitch Sometimes you want to butter 'em up before you put in the knife?

MetaEd

21:30

A practitioner of kung fu who trains for 17 years, finally achieves the status of master, and then dies within 24 hours is, I believe, termed a cicada. — Sven Yargs 4 hours ago

Brilliant.

Færd

21:42

@tchrist Found some others too: clean-shaven and downtrodden!

Of course, you won't be as enthused because you already know them.

Looks like they've only survived in compound adjectives.

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