English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

12:02 AM

I've seen them in zoos.

1:15 AM

@tchrist You have no reservations against telling me if you think I'm crazy. Does it strike you as strange when I suggest the word orthodox has more or less equivalent religious connotations as the word fundamentalist?

tchrist

@Tonepoet Not especially.

Tonepoet

1:33 AM

@tchrist Hmm, thanks.

tchrist

2:28 AM

@Jasper That's because we're such a peaceful place that we provide a safe harbor for moderators to hang out at without fear of trauma and tribulations.

Tonepoet

2:58 AM

When researching a question, I came across English Synonyms Explained, in Alphabetical Order: With Copious Illustrations and Examples Drawn from the Best Writers by George Crabb (1818 print) which looks interesting because sometimes even Noah Webster doesn't sufficiently explain the nuances of mostly synonymous words. I haven't examined the book in full enough detail though to fully endorse it yet though.

Tonepoet

3:12 AM

@Jasper If you want something newer though, I have no idea. I lack faith in my contemporaries to tell me the appropriate distinction between words. They simply do not care for the nuances, so much as the gist. Just today I realized that so many people do not even take note of the religious connotations of a word such as "orthodox", much to my consternation.

Tonepoet

3:31 AM

This isn't just due to my own "orthodox" views on language either. I would prefer if people just used it solely to refer to the religions. However even if I concede to a standard of evolving language, orthodox being used in the vein of paradoxical traditionalism being likened to that of the orthodox churches is probably the main reason to pick it. I realize that the word is used outside of religious contexts but the reason for it is important in metaphor, and connotations often do not even consider if they were meant.

user227867

5:11 AM

I just joined Meta Stackexchange, lol.

user227867

@Tonepoet Sounds like me, but I lack faith in the world in general.

Tonepoet

@Jasper I judge things on a case by case basis, or at least I like to think I do.

user227867

@Tonepoet Good for you. I have too much bitterness and anger and resentment and hatred built up over the years from the events in my personal life, which makes me view things quite differently.

user227867

I just got some math books from Book Depository.

Tonepoet

@Jasper How did the page examination go?

user227867

5:16 AM

@Tonepoet Do you mean whether the website is well designed?

Tonepoet

@Jasper The book Q.A. evaluation you usually do to see if there are any missing pages.

user227867

@Tonepoet Ah, my NOAD is in perfect condition. Every page is printed clearly and bound in the correct order. If you come and visit me I could give it to you as a present. =)

user227867

@Tonepoet Oh, as for the math books I mean I just ordered them. =)

Tonepoet

Ah...

user227867

Oh I was not joking about the NOAD present, but that won't happen cos you won't be visiting me anytime soon. =)

Tonepoet

5:20 AM

I got that.

user227867

@Tonepoet Did you show your mum the picture?

Tonepoet

Not yet.

user227867

The math book was very expensive, over 100 USD, but it is still a good price compared to other sites.

user227867

It is nice that we have our own Hangout. =)

user227867

I am going to sleep. Good night @Tonepoet remember to sleep more.

Tonepoet

5:29 AM

G'night.

SmokeDetector

6:06 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer: Can I use verb "to ride" referring to a car? by Stephen A. Perrenoud on english.stackexchange.com

user227867

1:49 PM

Just woke up. It's almost 10 PM.

user227867

2:58 PM

Just had dinner. It's almost 11 PM.

tchrist

3:36 PM

1

Q: What's the adverb for the state of being panickily instantaneous?

What's the adverb for the state of being panickily instantaneous? For example, when you play an action game, fighting a large bunch of enemies under great pressure, you just tap buttons ...ly in fear of losing the fight, while what you're supposed to do is be steady and calm.

I have several questions/problems/issues/uncertaintiese/confusions/puzzles/conundra related to this question. Who can name one?

terdon

3:57 PM

Who's J O S H? Have I simply never noticed him or has he changed his username recently?

tchrist

4:16 PM

@terdon Aye. See his user link.

terdon

@tchrist I have, but still can't figure out who it was.

tchrist

Josh61

terdon

Oh, duh!

tchrist

First kvetch: panickily means what exactly?

terdon

4:32 PM

@tchrist Chinese painkiller?

MetaEd

It means ickily, everywhere.

Matt E. Эллен

4:53 PM

1

A: What's the adverb for the state of being panickily instantaneous?

The other suggestions are good, but I'd also like to give "wildly" as a possibility.

that's the worst answer ever in any question, and yet it got 2 upvotes. It would be top if I hadn't downvoted it. Who would vote for "wildly is a word"?

Keep these mind

@MattE.Эллен I would. Although I didn't. What is the issue here, precisely? (I think that I believe some answers may be OK if, even without reference, they could provoke an 'ah, yes, of course' response.)

tchrist

@MattE.Эллен Anybody whose wildlily opposed their opponent’s tamelily in the ninety-seventh Dorothy Parker memorial whore to cultural floral show.

Keep these mind

@tchrist This looks like... English?!

tchrist

Pleasure is our aim.

Matt E. Эллен

@Keepthesemind the issue is that it isn't an answer. the question pages aren't a chat room. it doesn't explain itself and it leaves anyone who doesn't know the answer already in more confusion as it offers a "possibility" without any guidance. it's an empty gesture that is unhelpful at best.

tchrist

5:07 PM

2

A: An expression for quick and nervous behaviour

I don't think I have ever heard anyone use "Fumbling at..." in this kind of context. Consider ...frenetically searching for something on the computer "Frenetically" implies speed and possibly not 100% accuracy, whereas "frantically" just implies speed and possibly frustration at not achiev...

I feel like the panicky question is either GR or a duplicate of that other question. I wish it were better written.

Keep these mind

@MattE.Эллен Well, I think you are wildelily overreacting by calling this the worst evah.

Helmar

5:30 PM

Can a mod make this a CW question?

2

Q: List of tags that are blacklisted, burninated or under discussion

I had a look at the meta discussions that are about burninating, blacklisting/deleting or creating tags. I made a list of them. Why? It's for two purposes. Firstly, to have an overview about our taxonomy efforts besides tag synonyms. Secondly to track reappearing tags that have been burninated by...

discussion tags

tchrist

5:41 PM

@Helmar They can.

0

Q: Term for "shocked because of silliness"

If somebody doesn't know something very simple and thou art shocked by his or her silliness,how can you express that with one word I was ... because she didn't know president of Russi

single-word-requests

If thou wert truly as shocked as I am, thou wouldst never have used his or her.

Also, is Russi a place?

@Helmar What is the goal of making it CW?

Keep these mind

Russi

Russi is a comune (municipality) in the Province of Ravenna in the Italian region Emilia-Romagna, located about 60 kilometres (37 mi) east of Bologna and about 14 kilometres (9 mi) southwest of Ravenna. == Twin towns == Beaumont, France Bopfingen, Germany Saluggia, Italy Swords, Ireland == References == == External links == Comune di Russi...

tchrist

Oh!

Keep these mind

@tchrist I believe they have a president called Putti.

Helmar

@tchrist making more people contribute because it's not my post but everyone's

tchrist

@Keepthesemind Now if that isn't an idea that really grabs you by the putti, I don't know what is.

Keep these mind

5:50 PM

@tchrist It's sarcasm.

tchrist

@Keepthesemind Mine was worse. :/

@Helmar Oh, so more people can edit it you mean?

I can do that for you.

Helmar

Thank you

Keep these mind

@tchrist Manybody can edit if they want to. Always.

Why isn't 'manybody' a word?

tchrist

@Keepthesemind Manifold editrices are always beneficent.

Keep these mind

Many-body theory

The many-body theory (or many-body physics) is an area of physics which provides the framework for understanding the collective behavior of vast assemblies of interacting particles. In general terms, the many-body theory deals with effects that manifest themselves only in systems containing large numbers of constituents. While the underlying physical laws that govern the motion of each individual particle may (or may not) be simple, the study of the collection of particles can be extremely complex. In some cases emergent phenomena may arise which bear little resemblance to the underlying elementary...

Many-body problem

The many-body problem is a general name for a vast category of physical problems pertaining to the properties of microscopic systems made of a large number of interacting particles. Microscopic here implies that quantum mechanics has to be used to provide an accurate description of the system. A large number can be anywhere from 3 to infinity (in the case of a practically infinite, homogeneous or periodic system, such as a crystal), although three- and four-body systems can be treated by specific means (respectively the Faddeev and Faddeev-Yakubovsky equations) and are thus sometimes separately...

I think it is all very conservative.

But not in a Mormon sense, if I'm correctly informed.

tchrist

5:56 PM

@Keepthesemind Because if eachbody could edit it in their own way, allbody would want to do so.

Helmar

Three body problem is a terrific SciFi book

@tchrist Not sure I want allbody edits :D

Keep these mind

That would be albody.

tchrist

> manyatta [n.]
manyfold [adv.]
manyfull [adj.]
manygate(s [n.]
many-headed [adj.]
manyhede [n.]
manyie [n.]
manyie [v.]
manykin [adj.]
manyment [n.]
manyness [n.]
manyogana [n.]
manyplies [n. pl.]
many-sided [adj.]
many-what [n.]
many-where [n.]

@Helmar Missa est.

@Helmar Read more Ken Liu?

Helmar

@tchrist The second as well

Haven't gotten to the third yet

tchrist

I've read The Grace of Kings of his.

> ACHTUNG!

ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.

loves German

Helmar

6:04 PM

eh

that is anything but :D

I also just realized that Ken Liu is the translator of The Three Body Problem

Author is Cixin Liu, knew that something sounded off about the name.

There is some gold in that mock-German :D

tchrist

Heh.

Helmar

It's missing one really long compound though ;)

With a triple letter

Donaudampfschifffahrtsgesellschaftstreffen

tchrist

6:24 PM

Schifffahrt

Now, find fonts with suitable ligatures for that one.

Helmar

Probably easier to paint one myself :)

tchrist

Sauerstoffflasche

Not just another vinegar bottle.

Rubisco

Vinegar? I heard vinegar

tchrist

> Vinegar leaves an _________ taste in your mouth.

Rubisco

Vinegarious

tchrist

6:36 PM

acrid

acid

icky

ugly

Helmar

@tchrist In Sauerstoffflasche the triple letter makes it actually really better to parse. Since there are both the words Flasche and Lasche. Although the latter doesn't make sense.

repulsive

tchrist

countessship

duchessship

hostessship

MetaEd

@tchrist (a) sour

unless it's a nice fig vinegar in which case the finish might actually be sweet.

Helmar

Flussschiff = river-ship

tchrist

@Helmar Put that one in a bottle and smoke it.

Flussschiffflascherauchenrohr

Helmar

6:43 PM

Close

Flussschiffflaschenrauchrohr

tchrist

Yeah, the -en didn't look right.

MetaEd

6:55 PM

> Etymology: Etymology is the history of the origin of words and phrases.

One guess where that definition is posted.

Helmar

@tchrist This is the really tricky part about German compounds. There is on occasion a Fugenlaut (epenthesis - yeah looked that one up) between the words.

Just one of the things you just know as native speaker or you curse for eternity I guess. I have no clue how to explain which one goes where.

@MetaEd our tag wiki?

MetaEd

Helmar wins.

Helmar

@MetaEd I wanted to edit it a few times already. Every time I chose one without any wiki instead.

Rubisco

That's a bad tag wiki then

Helmar

There is a bit more actually

Rubisco

7:01 PM

The wiki should contains examples on the usage.

Helmar

Don't know if the distinction to entomology is there though ;)

Rubisco

It's not literally a wiki.

Helmar

@Rubisco I know:

5

Q: Suggested tag wiki blueprint

Our taxonomy is a mess. As second part of my two part approach to try changing that to the better this is a suggested blueprint for tag wikis. (Part One: Tagging Guideline) In this post I am suggesting a blueprint for tag wikis. If the feedback is well I'll put the result in a CW answer and acce...

discussion guideline

I literally wrote our blueprint :)

Rubisco

@Helmar "Our taxonomy is a mess" +1

Helmar

@Rubisco Seemed like the opening statement to go with :)

Rubisco

7:04 PM

> - Use expressions for questions about expressions.

Well duh

I thought [expressions] was for ice cream types. Thanks for the enlightenment

Helmar

Eh, yeah, in my defense the tag is already bad

The problem is that we have several tags about phrases, expressions and idioms which are mostly picked by roulette-fashion.

Rubisco

@Helmar Yeah, except it gets me downvotes on meta.ELL

Some people just can't take some criticism

I wish meta.ELL was run by only a bunch of regulars.

Helmar

Well it's the internet, I can think of a few places where criticism is valued more ;)

Rubisco

/r/roastme

Those people are sick though.

I haven't yet understood why people participate there

It's just a couple of jerks or wannabe jerks being jerks to people who want jerks to be jerks to them

MetaEd

@Rubisco: Masochist: Abuse me! Sadist: No!

Helmar

7:12 PM

So's the Masochist now happy cause he didn't get what he wanted or sad cause he didn't get abused, or is he happy because he's sad cause he didn't get abused?

Helmar

7:34 PM

That has to be one of the top 5 unnecessary tags on ELU :D

MetaEd

Dating advice? That's all we do here, honey.

tchrist

@MetaEd Hell, Marwin!

Helmar

Are the example sentences in dictionaries from a dictionary author or do they pick them from existing material? I'm just wondering if they sneak in insults to ex-girlfriends and the like.

Mitch

7:58 PM

@Helmar Yes. OED by editorial policy only has quotes from published literature/news. Others look like they make it up.

Like 'Oats, commonly eaten by horses, but in Scotland by people'

Helmar

@Mitch ok, good to know.

Mitch

well, I told you only one thing I actually know, and another thing that I don't now.

So you know that I'm not sure.

known unknowns

Helmar

It is known ;)

Mitch

nobody ever talks about the unknown knowns, the things that you know but don't realize.

Tonepoet

Samuel Johnson did actually utilize actual quotations in his dictionary. I think it might vary on an entry by entry basis for most...

Helmar

8:00 PM

Well, someone was pissed at Jeff here: ‘Self-proclaimed thirty-two year old "decent guy" Jeff hooks up with a fourteen year-old girl he's been chatting with online for weeks.’

Mitch

Samuel Jackson made up al his quotes, things that his ex girlfriends would have said about him

@Helmar as a quote for 'weeks', yes, that seems a little too transparent.

How can you self-proclaim as '32 year old'?

That's not the Jeff I know.

Tonepoet

"You type like a twelve year old who confused twitter for A.O.L."
"Actually, I'm 32 years old"
"No you're not, you liar."

Mitch

@Tonepoet snap!

because millenials don't use twitter anymore.

AOL is literally so last century

and twitter couldn't monetize itself out of a bag of hair.

pfft pfft thbtt blech pleah

Tonepoet

Well yeah, but I'm sure that the yung 'uns at least heard of A.O.L. speak.

Maybe even from their older siblings who told 'em just slightly exaggerated horror stories of people randomly pressing keys on their keyboard hoping that their meaning would just miraculously embody itself on the recipient's screen.

Helmar

AOL were the people who sent out free frisbees, right?

@Mitch If there is real bad blood it should be a quote on each of the involved words :D

Tonepoet

8:16 PM

@Helmar Nah, those were too small to be called frisbees. That'd be a more apt. description for a Laser Disc than a C.D. More like coasters that were defective by design with the holes in them.

Helmar

9:05 PM

We have had 1405 unique tags over time (minus tags solely on deleted stuff) of those we currently have 935 left. The tag table ID stands at 2260. So we have 470 tags who at times occupied 1325 IDs. That's 2.8 on average. So on average each tag got destroyed almost three times. Maybe we should just flat out blacklist every tag that was destroyed more than five times.

I guess there are three types of those deleted tags. Typo tags, one-time tags and absolute repeat offenders.

We had a tag dick at one point, because of course we did.

MetaEd

9:23 PM

@tchrist Where's the kaboom?

MetaEd

9:38 PM

must ... not ... make ... tag ... joke

Mitch

@MetaEd Now you have to

MetaEd

@Mitch No, that would be a tag move.

tchrist

10:01 PM

@Helmar Have you a list of those?

MetaEd

@tchrist Helmarwins = I R Welshman

tchrist

10:37 PM

Nah. It's not idiomatically viable to say The kennel is its. You can only do that with mine, yours, his, hers, ours, theirs. — FumbleFingers 10 hours ago

I wonder where he gets this idea of his.

I wonder where she gets this idea of hers.

I wonder where they get this idea of theirs.

I wonder where it gets this idea of its.

17

A: "Its" as a Possessive Pronoun

It’s much more common to use its as a possessive determiner like my, her, or their, than it is to use it as a possessive pronoun like mine, hers, or theirs. A possessive determiner goes in the determiner slot of a larger noun phrase; there still has to be a noun later on in that noun phrase. ...

Mitch

@tchrist So then isn't FF's question a dupe of the "Its as a possessive pronoun" question?

tchrist

Probably not.

Mitch

(I still maintain my broken ear with respect to 'its' alone, but accept all the evidence that it's OK.)

tchrist

It’s raining cats and dogs.

Mitch

?? both questions are about 'its', right?

tchrist

10:48 PM

It’s hard to say.

I can’t make those into a possessive inflection in any way that I can come up with.

Mitch

also even though I agree with FF here, I don't want to.

tchrist

The dummy-it case is for examples like I gave above. It's always in the formal subject slot.

Mitch

@tchrist Oh. OK. Yes, FF is talking about something different.

tchrist

There might be some in the object slot.

Mitch

Frankly I have a hard time understanding either question, the way they are worded.

tchrist

10:51 PM

Sometimes you just have to give it a break.

Mitch

@tchrist right. I see that now (in the sense that it is totally obvious, if only I would do minimal thinking)

tchrist

Not sure what it is there, but its indirect objectness is indisputable.

Mitch

@tchrist I'm giving language a break. Only communicating through gestures.

tchrist

It’s late.

For jesticulation.

Mitch

If that doesn't work, I'll only communicate through my (non-symbolic) actions.

Like eating dinner. I do that to show that I had been hungry. See how complex actions can be?

And if not by action, the last resort is non-action.

Quit trying
Quit trying not to try
Quit quitting

swallows self in self abnegation of non-self

That is not a particularly filling appetizer

tchrist

10:55 PM

Mmm dinner.

Mitch

Sometimes I go in the review queue and give the last vote to vote-todelete things

I feel like progress is being made.

Which is only slightly less good than prograss.

Fore!

tchrist

There seem to be far more things thrown to the low-quality queue than people voting on deleting them from there.

You've not even been there today!

english.stackexchange.com/review/low-quality-posts/history

user227867

11:17 PM

@Helmar Sounds like a Mandarin Chinese name.

Tonepoet

@tchrist Wouldn't it be more accurate to say possessive determiners are a subcategory of possessive pronoun, since they act as a substitute for possessive nouns

user227867

@Tonepoet Amazon told me that my dictionary could not ship to my place because the manufacturer imposed shipping restrictions to it. They said they will look into it and told me to come back in a couple days.

Tonepoet

@Jasper Which dictionary did you try to order?

user227867

@Tonepoet The notorious Paravia =P

user227867

@Tonepoet I am now very suspicious of this manufacturer which you know.

Tonepoet

11:23 PM

Oxford or Paravia?

user227867

If you read Amazon reviews lots of their books have pages missing or in the wrong order. Oxford.

user227867

This is very disappointing.

user227867

Some of them even have typos on the contents pages.

user227867

I think the Dean needs to fire half the publishing house.

Tonepoet

@Jasper Have you considered the Collins Sansoni dictionary?

user227867

11:26 PM

@Tonepoet That one has been superseded by Collin simply, no more Sansoni. And I was wondering why the number of entries reduced from the old to the new edition. Maybe the product description is wrong. Mabe the way entries are counted has changed. I dunno

Tonepoet

Dang, the Colins Sansoni is even more expensive than the Oxford Paravia.

user227867

Current editions of Collins Complete And Unabridged Dictionaries are 500k, 500k, 230k, and 440k for German French Italian and Spanish. Weird huh?

user227867

That is why I emailed Collins asking why the Italian one has SO few entries but they did not reply after 6 working days.

Tonepoet

The first thing that comes to mind is that they lost the rights to some of Sansoni's work and just kept their own...

user227867

Yes, I thought of that too, same as Oxford which stripped the Paravia name

Tonepoet

11:29 PM

However 500k isn't that incomplete. Even dedicated english dictionaries often have 300,000~ don't they?

user227867

Yes. But I like the four to have the same number of translations, roughly

user227867

And remember this is bidirectional which means you have to half that count for one language!

user227867

SO 500k means 250k in each language!

tchrist

@Tonepoet No: a possessive determiner is not a substantive; a possessive pronoun is.

user227867

@Tonepoet Because it is OOP!

tchrist

11:31 PM

You cannot give something to *my, only to mine.

You cannot give *my a shot, but you can give mine a shot.

user227867

I can give my a shot though.

user227867

Do you know that Cambridge students studying foreign languages for a degree actually depend very much on the Oxford and Collins full sized ones? @Tonepoet It is on their official reading lists.

tchrist

You cannot say that *my is best, but you can say that mine is best.

Tonepoet

@Jasper That explainsy why they're so expensive now. It'll probably change when the curriculum is updated, which it probably will be, since I can't imagine the faculty would require out of print books.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…