English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Tonepoet

01:05

One of these days, somebody needs to start a story with "Twice upon some times" to indicate that the events were not unique, because that's so much more remarkable than saying the events only happened "Once upon a time".

TIPS

04:34

@Lawrence I just forgot what I was about to say.

@Mitch is particularly distracting.

Laure

05:35

@Araucaria EFL retired teacher. Native French.

Lawrence

06:50

@TIPS Yes, he's fast on the keyboard - it can be difficult to keep up with his pace when he's on a roll :) . Anyway, ping me if you remember what you were going to say.

TIPS

07:09

@Lawrence Well, first I was about to comment on how annoying it is to write english.stackoverflow.com instead of english.stackexchange.com.

And then a discussion on how allowing LC questions would lead to the world of ELU burning.

Lawrence

07:41

@TIPS Then you happened upon that post, which said all the things you wanted to say?

TIPS

@Lawrence Nah, I don't happen upon posts, posts happen upon me.

Lawrence

12:05

@TIPS Ex post facto, I suppose it happens :) .

TIPS

See What Happens When Adults Do Coloring Books

Lawrence

12:34

@TIPS That takes out of context to a new orbit.

TIPS

@Lawrence It's something we should link to when trying to persuade someone that context is important on meta.

Lawrence

@TIPS Indeed!

Not just on meta - on main, too.

TIPS

Well, on our side, poor poor learners can't withstand such a horrible terribad link.

And I don't want suspension.

a lot

Lawrence

12:52

Here's an interesting post:

5

Q: What concepts are formed in a mind of a native English speaker when using the articles a, an, the?

I have been learning English intensively for 8 years and have been living and speaking in the UK/USA for the past 5 years. It has been 7 years since I have been thinking in English without the need of translation to my mother tongue, however I have to admit I cannot use the articles in English pr...

articles

The OP's conclusions seem reasonable, though as John Lawler comments, there are idiomatic instances that seem to defy logic.

@TIPS Sorry, I don't follow. Why would posting this link be mean / cruel / etc to learners, leading to suspension?

I take it you meant the colouring books link.

TIPS

@Lawrence I have no idea, but since I have had my welcome comments flagged, WELCOME COMMENTS for God's sake, I'm not trying out any tact on learners. They might and will perceive it as impoliteness or whatever.

Language barrier is the worst thing in the world.

Lawrence

@TIPS Would you mind linking to one of them? Anyone can flag comments - it doesn't mean the flag is valid.

TIPS

@Lawrence Well, I got a mod message telling me not to welcome people anymore.

It wasn't generating just one flag.

Lawrence

(I'm not a mod, but I'll don't mind taking a look and giving you my 2c's worth about how it might come across.)

TIPS

@Lawrence The mod message was from J.R. The problem was only the number of flags generated, not my welcome comments.

But eh, this story is as old as the universe. Moves on

Lawrence

13:01

Ok.

TIPS

Someone just took the liberty of posting 7 consecutive questions on ELL, some of which are closable even by ELL's standards.

FFS

Lawrence

13:16

@TIPS It happens. If they're close-worthy, just vote to close, and move on. My view is that we need to build a community of people, especially people with interesting questions within the remit of the individual 'stack' (ELU, ELL, etc). It's this which will grow the site in a useful way. Coming down too hard tends to drive people away, leaving just the drive-by questions. On the other hand, under-moderating also degrades the database as a whole.

It's a tough line to hold, but I'd encourage looking for the OPs who have something interesting to say (even if it's said in a way that's strictly-speaking, off-topic), and encourage them to clarify their thoughts - even if it's helping by editing. In the end, it's a human community that we're fostering. Do that right, and the database just about takes care of itself. Do it wrong, and the database becomes irrelevant.

TIPS

Precisely.

The only thing that concerns me is that the number of frequent askers on ELL that do not still know how to phrase a good post is irritatingly, abnormally high.

I've tried lowering my bar numerous times, but these people find more creative ways to be annoying by not being able to help us help them.

When was the last time I saw an interesting question on ELL I learned something from? How about last year?

Heh, what's worse, I sometimes can't even persuade myself into answering them.

Just to be struck by what I consider to be a low-quality answer posted by a user with random amount of rep.

There are very few people I trust on ELL not to post anything with disappointing quality.

This happens insanely often: A user posts a question, which looks more like "hey, I can't phrase my sentence. Here's some bricks. Build a wall."

Lawrence

@TIPS On posting multiple questions, that may be a consequence of the one question per question rule. If it gets out of hand, flag it for a moderator's attention. (I don't envy the mod role.)

TIPS

And while some people try to close it with a couple of reasons (and thankfully, comments), two answers come along that are nothing more than "Try this wording instead."

Lawrence

@TIPS That's how ELL was set up, I suppose - for learners.

TIPS

What I'm saying is that ELL has essentially become a help desk rather a "repository of knowledge".

@Lawrence No, it's because that specific user is writing some book, and coming up with trivial questions, that I agree, would be a good fit for chat.

Take this for instance:

0

Q: Swimming strokes

What a native would ask from someone in order to know which swimming strokes he / she knows: Which swimming strokes you know? Which swimming techniques you know? Which swimming styles you know?

sentences

Trivial question regarding usage, concerning options that aren't mutually exclusive.

Lawrence

13:23

@TIPS Hmm, maybe you could divert them to ELL's chat room if that's more appropriate than ELL's main site.

TIPS

"Why the hell should one of them be wrong?"

@Lawrence Tried it more than a couple of times.

Some people show up, some don't.

Scratch that. Most don't.

Chat is a new interface they think they will need to get used to, so it's a bit more intimidating than it should be.

Even for non-learners.

This is a major reason people don't spend much time in SE chat compared to other chats of sites primarily meant for social interaction.

Lawrence

@TIPS Does ELL's main chat room have many regular visitors?

Oh, you mean the learners don't show up in chat to ask their questions.

TIPS

@Lawrence It's really complicated which chatroom to call "main", but Language Overflow has almost as many regulars as ELU's room does.

Me, DamT, Cowper and Snailplane are there everyday unless something happens.

tchrist

Who is Me?

TIPS

Methyl.

CH3

tchrist

13:31

ELU sends ELL a few questions a day.

TIPS

The migrations aren't bad or good.

Same goes for the questions.

Lawrence

@TIPS I just popped over to have a look - there's one (ELL's Cabin) advertised as "the main chat room" for ELL. Maybe start a room like "Help me ask my question." - don't answer any questions there; instead, just use it to coax the question into a form suitable for publishing. You may sometimes be able do this even without the OP for diamond-in-the-rough questions. (Maybe we should do this at ELU. Hmm.)

TIPS

@Lawrence Yes, but everyone moved to LanguageOverflow since that was the room DT hanged out in.

Or hung. Whichever you prefer.

tchrist

dailycamera.com/news/boulder/ci_30204674/…

TIPS

@Lawrence Pretty good idea, but I wonder who'd be there to do that.

Lawrence

13:34

@TIPS hangs out (in).

TIPS

Oh right.

tchrist

@Lawrence Diamond-in-the-rough = pre-moderator? :)

TIPS

"out in" now creeps me out. Too Schrodinger-y.

tchrist

ö

TIPS

@Lawrence TBH, I'm not inclined to do this because of the previous failed attempts.

tchrist

13:35

oe

TIPS

Unless people feel a need, you can't help them.

It doesn't matter whether they really do need help or not, but how they really feel.

Lawrence

@tchrist Not really referencing mods with that. They are the questions that (e.g.) lack research, but are otherwise touches on something of genuine interest.

tchrist

salutes

Rejlan Givens

Hi everyone

Lawrence

@TIPS :)

TIPS

13:37

Hi @everyone

Rejlan Givens

hey TIPS

TIPS

It doesn't ping anyone, hmm

Lawrence

Hi.

Rejlan Givens

I have a dilemma about the right choice of phrase guys

TIPS

@Lawr I invite you to watch ELL's newest questions for two days and tell me if you see any diamonds. Polished or not.

Rejlan Givens

13:39

it is about material things, stuff

TIPS

It is obviously about stuff. But what stuff?

Rejlan Givens

and I'm not sure how to refer to it in general

about material stuff

should I refer to it as material goods, tangible goods or

I don't know how

I'm speaking about damage made to things

and want to say that a restoration process is not only about recovering material stuff but also about other issues

Lawrence

@TIPS Think of it as not for them, but for you. Interesting questions might not come up very often, but this is for when they do. Then again, you can already discuss such things in your regular chat rooms, or on meta :) .

TIPS

I lost hope long ago. (/¯◡ ‿ ◡)/¯ ~ ┻━┻

BBL

Rejlan Givens

okay that's my question

Lawrence

13:41

@TIPS Ok. I'll have a look at ELL. :)

@TIPS Bye.

Rejlan Givens

help's appreciated

Lawrence

@RejlanGivens Consider "... about recovering tangible items but also about ....".

Rejlan Givens

thank you Lawrence

Lawrence

Or even just "... recovering items ...".

@RejlanGivens You're welcome.

Rejlan Givens

Can I also use "restoring items"

I mean restore is a perfect synonym here

Lawrence

13:44

@RejlanGivens Yes, "restoring items [to the items' owners]" is idiomatic for "getting them back to their owners".

Rejlan Givens

but not in that sense Lawrence, it is about reconstructing the place that was damaged by a natural disaster

and I want to say that the previous state needs to be restored

tangible and intangible stuff included

Does "restore" still work in that sense?

Lawrence

@TIPS Ok, here's one that piqued my interest - it was the 5th post or so from the top of ELL's main question page. The nugget here is how to describe (particular) perceived emotions - you interpret facial arrangements and body language, and come to a conclusion about the emotion. Do you reference the body language or the emotion? What about situations where one language references the body language differently from another? E.g. long face vs down in the mouth.

-1

Q: How to use the idiom "long face"

Suppose someone has gone out to do something and when he comes back you see he is very unhappy because he has not succeeded in doing the job in his question. Could someone please let me know which one of the following sentences and the ways I've used the idiom "long face" sounds more natural: ...

idioms

@RejlanGivens Yes, restoring something to its original condition is idiomatic as well.

Rejlan Givens

thank you Lawrence

Lawrence

:)

SmokeDetector

14:09

[ SmokeDetector ] Bad keyword in answer, bad keyword with email in answer, email in answer: Etymology of 'rime' and 'unrime', meaning 'to put on/takeoff outdoor clothing' by gomri on english.stackexchange.com …

[ SmokeDetector ] Manually reported answer: Etymology of 'rime' and 'unrime', meaning 'to put on/takeoff outdoor clothing' by gomri on english.stackexchange.com …

Lawrence

14:26

@tchrist What's interesting is that the 40 year-old just happened to have a helium balloon floating about in his car.

@tchrist returns the salute out of courtesy

looks around, now wondering whether he was saluting someone else

tchrist

@Lawrence Might have kids.

Lawrence

or perhaps speaking in foreign languages again

tchrist

If I recall correctly, English is not your first language, and so you are indeed speaking in a foreign language. :)

Lawrence

@tchrist Yes, I considered that. It'd be quite an apology for the man to try to explain that he'd sacrificed the helium balloon for the sake of road kill.

@tchrist Actually, I'd consider it to be a first language. What I wasn't was Caucasian.

tchrist

Oh!!!

Sorry.

You do write like a native speaker.

Lawrence

14:31

No problem :) .

That foreign language reference was to this: collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/french-english/salut

In which case, hello.

tchrist

I should have known better, but we have such great impersonators here as Cerb and Reg especially that I'm often deceived. Cerb is more educated/literate/literary than most native speakers (plus Dutch is English's closest cousin) and Reg has idiomatic English especially the contemporary American lingo down pat, and is a native speaker of German (which is close to English) and Russian (which certainly is not).

Lawrence

@tchrist You're quite a linguist yourself :) .

tchrist

What for knowing those guises native tongues?

Lawrence

If we don't count Perl (which we should, except that it's not what we normally call a natural language), you're sufficiently well-versed in Portuguese to be a moderator on that site, and appear to be conversant with Latin, French and possibly others.

tchrist

Oh.

I'm fluent in Spanish and have studied Romance philology especially general Iberian Romance evolution. I know Portuguese and French and some Italian and some Latin, plus can piggyback that base on virtually any other Romance variant you can imagine, albeit less effectively with Romanian.

Lawrence

14:40

Well, there you go. I stand corrected. Even more impressive. :)

You can give Cerb and Reg a run for their money.

tchrist

I once studied German, like 30 years ago.

It's virtually gone now.

The others interlock.

Lawrence

I had the opportunity while at school to study German and a couple of other languages, but wasn't keen. Missed opportunity.

caub

a user/an user ? (pretty sure it's the first) Ah thanks guys

Lawrence

A.

tchrist

a

"user" starts with a consonant.

/juzr/

caub

14:44

hehe, phonetic is really good to figure out

tchrist

It's the controlling factor.

an honor

a utility

an herbal in American, a herbal in Britain.

Lawrence

@caub That "Y" as consonant is a little tricky / strange.

Mitch

A 'W' as vowel even trickier

caub

a yellow user

tchrist

But it's the same thing.

Færd

14:46

ODO says piccata is an adjective, while it's certainly a noun.

tchrist

When /w/ and /j/ are the start of a diphthong, we count them as consonants, but when they're at the end of of a diphthong, they count as vowels.

@Færd carne piccata à l’italienne?

Wait, that's not English. :)

Mitch

/wauw/

Færd

It's an Italian word originally.

(as appears)

piccata

Adjective: piccata ‎(not comparable)

Sliced, sautéed and served with lemon, parsley and butter sauce.
1999: Rattle-snake piccata with grapes and figs, old Brown Betty with a yellow wig — Tom Waits, ‘Filipino Box Spring Hog’

Noun: piccata f ‎(plural piccate)

prick (act of pricking)
a dish of escalope of veal fried in butter with parsley and lemon...

tchrist

@Mitch /jej/

Lawrence

@Færd From that ODO link - "Cooked in a sauce of lemon, parsley and butter: chicken piccata turkey cutlets served piccata style". Like "Chicken cacciatore" - it's a post-modifier or some such. It describes the chicken, so it's an adjective.

tchrist

14:49

And it's normally written /wau/ but that's really the same as /waw/.

Mitch

@tchrist /haha/

caub

/lawl/

tchrist

@Lawrence huh

Yes, ok.

Færd

@Lawrence It could be seen as a noun that is often used attributively.

Mitch

Piccata notwithstanding

@caub my next move!

caub

14:50

withsitting then?

Mitch

Outstanding in a field

Lawrence

@tchrist And here I was, thinking you were eloquent :) . Can you please elaborate?

tchrist

Postmodifying culinary adjectives used in English derived from French or Italian are bound to behave oddly.

Mitch

@Lawrence chaise longue

caub

rocking chair

tchrist

14:52

long chair

lawn chair

Lon Cheney Jr.

Mitch

You're making my chair crawl

Færd

COCA gives 55 hits for piccata, in many of which it's chicken/veal/fish/beef/etc piccata. In many others it's used alone (e.g. I think with piccata you must have pasta). The minority of the sentences that remain I don't feel like investigating!

tchrist

I'd use remain there, although opinions can vary.

Lawrence

@Mitch No, that and the following several expressions are in the usual order. You need something like "the body beautiful", where beautiful modifies the word body. I use need here purely in the academic sense.

Færd

@tchrist Thanks.

tchrist

14:56

In my youth I would have used a singular but I've mellowed with age.

Færd

@tchrist Does the singular work too? Perceiving them all as a chunk or something?

Lawrence

@tchrist Actually, (name) junior fits.

tchrist

@Færd It depends on whether you prefer the majority is always right as is common but not exclusive in America or whether you prefer the majority are always right as is normal but not exclusive in Britain.

Færd

Oh. I see.

(The majority is seldom right btw:)

tchrist

Yup.

Færd

15:02

@tchrist But don't you treat group names as singular more often than the British?

tchrist

Yes.

Færd

So why do you prefer remain?

tchrist

I don't know.

Færd

:)

caub

prefiero 'quedar'

tchrist

15:03

Did you know that's a rare verb in Portuguese? They normally use ficar instead.

Lawrence

@tchrist As an alternate view, perhaps it depends on what you consider remains: the minority or the sentences. I think it can be parsed both ways.

caub

ficar is the same root than "figer" in French?

Færd

@Lawrence I'd like to have that freedom of choice.

tchrist

@caub Yes. Latin figo (1st person singular)

Lawrence

@Færd :)

tchrist

15:05

figo

Noun: figo ‎(plural figos)

Alternative form of fico
Washington Irving
A figo for the governor, and a figo for his flag.
figo ‎(accusative singular figon, plural figoj, accusative plural figojn)
fig (fruit)

(8 more not shown…)

Adjective: figo m ‎(feminine singular figa, masculine plural fighi, feminine plural fighe)

(slang) great, cool (admirable)

Verb: fīgō ‎(present infinitive fīgere, perfect active fīxī, supine fīxum); third conjugation

I fasten, fix
I transfix, pierce
I drive nails

No, Latin, silly.

Lawrence

Ok, I'd better sign off. See you all in the transcripts!

caub

Ohh, that's my favorite fruit

tchrist

> Descendants[edit]
Aromanian: hig, hidziri
Catalan: ficar
English: fix
French: figer, ficher, fixer
Italian: figgere, fissare
Portuguese: ficar, fincar, fitar
Romanian: fixa
Spanish: hincar

caub

interesting

tchrist

@caub Is it now?

caub

15:06

Yes totally, not yet the season, but soon, not yet ripe

Færd

We have them here already. I like it too; helps with digestion.

Or the digestion. I don't know.

caub

not just digestion, I could eat 5kg of them daily :)

Færd

You have a huge appetite for a little reptile. :)

caub

kinda frugivore yes, it's fun to see how fruits have been made much bigger imgur.com/gallery/5cNWr

TIPS

18:16

@Lawrence Those are not the questions asked there, but queries of your own.

We always do stuff like you did in our chat.

ELL's chat is the only reason I sometimes visit ELL, actually.

Tonepoet

18:29

Does S.L.A. stand for single line answer?

TIPS

@Tonepoet Yes, but that is not in any way official.

It's been introduced for the sake of that meta.ELU discussion. You can see it defined there.

I personally prefer the term "one-liner".

Or "oneliner".

Shorter. Check. Sounds cool. Check. Descriptive. Check. Not confusing. Check.

Tonepoet

Yeah, one liner does seem to be better come to think of it, since it's used in contexts outside of E.L.U., although some people might insist that be used to mean some sort of punchline.

TIPS

Well, if it's Barry England a oneliner is a punchline.

Tonepoet

19:44

Oh, I feel stupid for asking now. It looks like a definition was provided in the question. v_v Nevertheless, before I forget, thank for answering @TIPS.

TIPS

Don't mention it

FliiFe

21:39

Hey. Just wondering. Lets say my birthday was six months ago, can I say "I'm twenty for six months" ? If not, what are alternatives (not invloving "a half") ? "It's been six months I'm twenty" ?

"I've been sixteen for six month" ?

sumelic

22:48

@FliiFe You can't say *"I'm twenty for six months." (This is one area where English differs from some other languages such as French.) In this context, you need to use the perfect: "I've been twenty for six months." *"It's been six months I'm twenty" is also not correct, but you can say "It's been six months since I turned twenty."

Tonepoet

@FliiFe Do you mean not involving have?

sumelic

@Tonepoet I think that meant that we're not dealing with work-arounds like saying "I'm twenty and a half" :)

Tonepoet

Oh right. I'm not used to adults being referred to that way.

I know halve sounds much like have, despite being entirely different words.

sumelic

@Tonepoet For me they have the exact same sequence of phonemes in citation form: /hæv/. The only difference is that "have," as a "function word," can be phonetically reduced or assimilated in various ways depending on the grammatical and phonological context (dropping the "h," reducing the vowel to schwa, eliding the vowel entirely in some contexts, devoicing the /v/ to /f/).

I think that possibly because of this, I might make the /æ/ in "halve" a little bit longer than the /æ/ in "have" even when I'm using the unreduced form of the latter word.

Tonepoet

I'd be lying if I said I could read I.P.A. but judging from the Cambridge pronunications, I prefer hɑːv (U.K.) to hæv (U.S.) because it disambiguates the two words and there's an l in it.

FliiFe

23:04

@sumelic Thanks alot ! Oh, and @Tonepoet I did mean "a half" to avoid workarounds as @sumelic mentioned.

Tonepoet

Okay, then yeah, I agree with Sumelic that you should say "I have been 20 for six months" (I've is a contraction of I have).

In fact, all of Sumelics' suggestions would work, but that's why I wanted to know.

FliiFe

Thanks !

sumelic

@Tonepoet Well, disambiguation is rarely necessary. The "l" is silent either way, it's not really relevant to the quality of the vowel. Historically, the pronunciation that is homophonous with "have" is a bit older. In UK English the vowel in "half" was broadened from "a" as in "cat" to "a" as in "cart" because of the following /f/ sound, and the vowel in "halve" was changed by analogy. I think the best pronunciation of the vowel for a non-native speaker is whatever one they use in "half."

Tonepoet

23:19

Yeah, I've been looking at I.P.A. pronunciations right now and it seems that : modifies the prior vowel rather than representing a sound of its own. Perhaps I'm crazy but I do perceive the slightest hint of an l in cambridge's U.K. recording though.

sumelic

@Tonepoet It wouldn't surprise me if some speakers have restored consonantal "l" here. Many American speakers now pronounce /l/ as a distinct consonant in words like "palm" and "balm." And there are other words that pretty much everyone has /l/ in nowadays, like "falcon" (the older pronunciation "fawcon" now sounds terribly old-fashioned to me).

Tonepoet

Ah yeah, I know about the calm/palm/balm thing. I remembered hearing those pronunciations which is why I checked more of the dictionaries.

Not so much about falcon though. That's interesting.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…